If Cavs drop out...?

[brewcity77]

Just gotta say a few things... I grew up in Cleveland and subsequently have been a Cleveland sports fan all my life, yes even before LeBron.

Liar. There was no Cleveland before LeBron.



Seriously though, I do have questions about his killer instinct, but listening to Chicago sports radio right now is simply ridiculous. Everyone is saying "He's not as good as Jordan, he doesn't compare to Jordan..."

Well, duh. LeBron is 25 years old. Jordan didn't win his first title until he was 27. We talk about Michael's killer instinct, his ability to dominate in the Finals, but would he have had it to the same level without players like Pippen and Grant alongside him? Or later, Pippen, Rodman, and Harper? No one can win a title on their own, and LeBron is no exception. Put him on a team with another superstar or two, and maybe he'll show that he does have that killer instinct. And maybe more importantly, give him a coach that can teach him how to take his own team by the throat and drag them to the promised land, much like how Phil Jackson did with both MJ and Kobe.

However...a big part of me does wonder if that can be taught. After all, Jordan did hit that shot at North Carolina, foreshadowing his killer instinct. Same thing with Dwyane Wade's triple double lifting Marquette over Kentucky, a possible precursor to his title win in Miami. Big players do big things in big moments, and James has yet to prove that he can seize that on the highest stage. But that being said, any Bulls fan would have to be stupid to think that happy memories of Jordan mean they shouldn't want LeBron. I'd love to give a collective kick to the heads of all Bulls fans that are indicating otherwise.

[damuts222]

 After watching the last couple of games in the series it appeared as if the Cavaliers were not playing as a team and didn't have any fire or intensity. Is there some stuff going on between the players in the locker room, or the coach and the players, or both.

 It was unsettling to see the way they played last night, yet in the NBA during the season it is par for the course for most teams/players. That being said, as a Bulls fan it is w/in the realm of possibility and as a fanbase how could you not be excited.  After his post-game press conference game I will be surprised if he stays.

 The Bulls were awful for what is it ten years or so until we got Rose, in which we are now a decent team. If we get a scorer we will be able to contend.

[GoldenWarrior]

A few things after actually reading some of the comments here:

1.  Chicago does make some sense for LBJ with a strong young core
2.  Chicago's front office doesn't exactly have a stellar background
3.  Noah and Rose are entering their final years under contract... if Rose continues to evolve into a superstar who is to say he'd want to stay in CHI and continue to play Robin to LeBron's Batman?  Keep in mind most NBA players are as egotistical as they come, whether or not you want to realize it.
4.  The Lakers and Celtics are the ONLY franchises that have any glamour appeal, other than that no one
5.  Chicagoans on this board are going to hate my number 4 point
6.  Cleveland actually has a decent young core itself (no not as good as Chicago's, but certainly better than the Knicks!)

[GoldenWarrior]

Liar. There was no Cleveland before LeBron.



Seriously though, I do have questions about his killer instinct, but listening to Chicago sports radio right now is simply ridiculous. Everyone is saying "He's not as good as Jordan, he doesn't compare to Jordan..."

Well, duh. LeBron is 25 years old. Jordan didn't win his first title until he was 27. We talk about Michael's killer instinct, his ability to dominate in the Finals, but would he have had it to the same level without players like Pippen and Grant alongside him? Or later, Pippen, Rodman, and Harper? No one can win a title on their own, and LeBron is no exception. Put him on a team with another superstar or two, and maybe he'll show that he does have that killer instinct. And maybe more importantly, give him a coach that can teach him how to take his own team by the throat and drag them to the promised land, much like how Phil Jackson did with both MJ and Kobe.

However...a big part of me does wonder if that can be taught. After all, Jordan did hit that shot at North Carolina, foreshadowing his killer instinct. Same thing with Dwyane Wade's triple double lifting Marquette over Kentucky, a possible precursor to his title win in Miami. Big players do big things in big moments, and James has yet to prove that he can seize that on the highest stage. But that being said, any Bulls fan would have to be stupid to think that happy memories of Jordan mean they shouldn't want LeBron. I'd love to give a collective kick to the heads of all Bulls fans that are indicating otherwise.

Haha part of me wished I was a liar, but yes I was there when Ricky Davis tried to achieve a triple double by shooting at our own hoop, or the fugly days of Shawn Kemp and some of the ugliest jersey's in the history of the NBA (though I wish they'd wear them once per year still to pay respects to Brandon Terrel and Tyrone Hill, lol).

I think it's tough to say for LBJ on the killer instincts.  He didn't play in college so he didn't have to appear on that stage for his "foreshadowing" moment of greatness ala D Wade and MJ.  If anything, I say that game 5 of the 2007 Eastern Conference Finals against Detroit could be in a sense his "foreshadowing" moment.

Anyone who is a Chicago fan would be completely ridiculous to not want LeBron on their team plain and simple... totally agree with your analysis though.  I had been hoping that Antawn was the man who would finally be a Robin for LeBron, but he disappeared last night unfortunately.

[MerrittsMustache]

A few things after actually reading some of the comments here:

1.  Chicago does make some sense for LBJ with a strong young core
2.  Chicago's front office doesn't exactly have a stellar background
3.  Noah and Rose are entering their final years under contract... if Rose continues to evolve into a superstar who is to say he'd want to stay in CHI and continue to play Robin to LeBron's Batman?  Keep in mind most NBA players are as egotistical as they come, whether or not you want to realize it.
4.  The Lakers and Celtics are the ONLY franchises that have any glamour appeal, other than that no one
5.  Chicagoans on this board are going to hate my number 4 point
6.  Cleveland actually has a decent young core itself (no not as good as Chicago's, but certainly better than the Knicks!)

#3 - Why would Rose leave a perennial title contender in his hometown?
#4 - That's simply wrong.
#5 - Chicagoans won't hate point #4. They'll just think you're a fool...as will most other logical basketball fans.
#6 - Who is Cleveland's decent young core? J.J. Hickson and, um, Danny Green?

[GoldenWarrior]

#3 - Why would Rose leave a perennial title contender in his hometown?
#4 - That's simply wrong.
#5 - Chicagoans won't hate point #4. They'll just think you're a fool...as will most other logical basketball fans.
#6 - Who is Cleveland's decent young core? J.J. Hickson and, um, Danny Green?

3.  I'm throwing it out that he MAY be egotistical to not wanting to play Robin to leBron's Batman as stated originally.
4.  Why is this wrong?
5.  Refer to this #4 and why will "logical fans" think I'm a fool?  I think most "logical fans" would agree with me that one era of greatness in an entire franchises history doesn't make it glamourous for the rest of eternity... you need multiples to achieve this status in my opinion.
6.  Mo Williams, Delonte West, JJ Hickson, Anderson Varejou, Danny Green - will openly admit this isn't the best around and some seem to disappear in the playoffs, but again as I've previously stated I think that there is a learning curve for playoff contention basketball.

[RawdogDX]

I agree with this.  Like I said, if I'm drafting a point guard for the future Rose comes up at 4 to me.  I'd take Williams, Rondo, and Paul (too good to pass up despite some injuries) over him.  I was just pointing out that as of today Rose was not a top 5 point guard.

And Jennings had an unbelievable year and is only going to get better with maturity, which will lead to better shot selection.  In my opinion, with proper work, he has the potential to be a better all-around point guard than Derrick Rose.  As of right now, Rose is more proven, but if Jennings can consistently knock down mid-range jump shots, he's going to be lethal.  He gets to the paint at will and shot 37% from 3 point range this year.  He's quicker than just about anybody in the game and can create for his teammates.

And Jennings had an unbelievable year
look at post all star game stats for rose.  He was finally 100%.

and is only going to get better with maturity
As will derick rose.

 which will lead to better shot selection.
ditto

but if Jennings can consistently knock down mid-range jump shots, he's going to be lethal.
hmm... who else might be working on his jumper right now?

He gets to the paint at will and shot 37% from 3 point range this year
got to give you that. but total fg% post all star break 52%.  Far and away best among top scorers

He's quicker than just about anybody in the game and can create for his teammates.
Just about anybody, but not Derrick rose.  Who's not only fast but able to absorb contact and he can jump out of the gym.  That's what separates good from great.

[Hards Alumni]

#3 - Why would Rose leave a perennial title contender in his hometown?
#4 - That's simply wrong.
#5 - Chicagoans won't hate point #4. They'll just think you're a fool...as will most other logical basketball fans.
#6 - Who is Cleveland's decent young core? J.J. Hickson and, um, Danny Green?

#3 - $$$
#4 - probably wrong...
#5 - wrong, they'll hate

And Jennings had an unbelievable year
look at post all star game stats for rose.  He was finally 100%.

and is only going to get better with maturity
As will derick rose.

 which will lead to better shot selection.
ditto

but if Jennings can consistently knock down mid-range jump shots, he's going to be lethal.
hmm... who else might be working on his jumper right now?

He gets to the paint at will and shot 37% from 3 point range this year
got to give you that. but total fg% post all star break 52%.  Far and away best among top scorers

He's quicker than just about anybody in the game and can create for his teammates.
Just about anybody, but not Derrick rose.  Who's not only fast but able to absorb contact and he can jump out of the gym.  That's what separates good from great.

Jennings is quicker than Rose.  bank it.

[brewcity77]

A few things after actually reading some of the comments here:

1.  Chicago does make some sense for LBJ with a strong young core
2.  Chicago's front office doesn't exactly have a stellar background
3.  Noah and Rose are entering their final years under contract... if Rose continues to evolve into a superstar who is to say he'd want to stay in CHI and continue to play Robin to LeBron's Batman?  Keep in mind most NBA players are as egotistical as they come, whether or not you want to realize it.
4.  The Lakers and Celtics are the ONLY franchises that have any glamour appeal, other than that no one
5.  Chicagoans on this board are going to hate my number 4 point
6.  Cleveland actually has a decent young core itself (no not as good as Chicago's, but certainly better than the Knicks!)

1. Agreed

2. Sadly, also agreed.

3. He's still a restricted FA, they won't let him go. Rose will be around for at least 5 more years, minimum.

4. In the 50+ crowd, this is probably true. If you're in the 40+ crowd, it's possibly true. If you're in the <40 crowd, it's simply wrong. I'm 33, and grew up watching MJ. The Bulls were basketball royalty, and wherever you were, if you watched the NBA in the 1990s (when most of the current NBA stars were growing up) the Bulls WERE the team to watch. The Celtics sucked. The Lakers fell off for quite a few years. Yes, if you go back to the 1980s and before, that is a true statement, but for anyone my age or younger, it's simply false. Thanks to Jordan, the Bulls are as much a glamour franchise for that age group as any other.

5. Don't hate you for it, but as stated above, I disagree with it.

6. But the NBA has shown that you need that one other superstar. As you said, it wasn't Jamison, and there's no one else in Cleveland that fits the bill. LeBron's "they're lucky to have had me for 7 years" statement is about as definitive as it gets, I'm pretty sure he's leaving. I'm not saying 100% it will be Chicago, but it will be somewhere where he thinks there is another guy who can help him get that title. Whether it's the Knicks signing him and Bosh, or the Nets getting the #1 pick in Wall, or the Bulls pairing him with Rose, he will go somewhere with another true superstar level player.

[brewcity77]

And just to elaborate on point #4, why do you think LeBron wore 23 for his high school and the first 7 years of his pro career? Why is he changing his number to 6 next year? It's in deference to Michael Jordan. It's because he grew up idolizing Michael Jordan. It's because for anyone who is LeBron's age and follows basketball, the be all and end all of NBA glamor is Michael Jordan, and Jordan is synonymous with the Chicago Bulls.

[reinko]

The Lakers 16 world titles and the Celtics 17, think the Bulls 6 are kinda cute.

[GoldenWarrior]

I'm 23 years old, and unfortunately for those who are saying young people hold Chicago above the rest isn't exactly accurate, though I will agree some do.  I'll give you that LBJ clearly idolizes MJ and may want to continue his career where MJ had performed at such a high level, however I do think that the glamour argument is one that is depends on perception and timing because as noted above if you look historically Chicago is definitively not glamorous.  However, if you are looking to the era and generation which I am a part of, there is something there for Chicago, though the post-Jordan days have certainly put a damper on those "glamour days" if you ask me.

I should clarify I stated the original Chi is not glamorous in a historical sense and not simply for the LBJ may find it appealing and think it's glamorous argument.

[RawdogDX]

Jennings is quicker than Rose.  bank it.

Rose is a beast and a game changer.  Anyone who thinks jennings is on his level is delusional.  Players all talk about how tough he is to guard.  He's the closest thing to wade right now.

Rose put up 23 ppg in the 2nd half of his sophomore season season.  (he wasn't healthy coming into the year.)
If you can say the same about Jennings next year I'll be shocked.  Put it on your outlook calendar.

[GoldenWarrior]

1. Agreed

2. Sadly, also agreed.

3. He's still a restricted FA, they won't let him go. Rose will be around for at least 5 more years, minimum.

4. In the 50+ crowd, this is probably true. If you're in the 40+ crowd, it's possibly true. If you're in the <40 crowd, it's simply wrong. I'm 33, and grew up watching MJ. The Bulls were basketball royalty, and wherever you were, if you watched the NBA in the 1990s (when most of the current NBA stars were growing up) the Bulls WERE the team to watch. The Celtics sucked. The Lakers fell off for quite a few years. Yes, if you go back to the 1980s and before, that is a true statement, but for anyone my age or younger, it's simply false. Thanks to Jordan, the Bulls are as much a glamour franchise for that age group as any other.

5. Don't hate you for it, but as stated above, I disagree with it.

6. But the NBA has shown that you need that one other superstar. As you said, it wasn't Jamison, and there's no one else in Cleveland that fits the bill. LeBron's "they're lucky to have had me for 7 years" statement is about as definitive as it gets, I'm pretty sure he's leaving. I'm not saying 100% it will be Chicago, but it will be somewhere where he thinks there is another guy who can help him get that title. Whether it's the Knicks signing him and Bosh, or the Nets getting the #1 pick in Wall, or the Bulls pairing him with Rose, he will go somewhere with another true superstar level player.

3.  Thanks for pointing it out, didn't realize, but now I'm looking and I'm questioning when exactly this happens.  I see him listed in some references and not in other for the 2011 class... anyone know definitively because now I'm questioning myself on this point.  Noah is for certain restricted in 2011 though, which yes means you'll retain him provided health.

4.  Please see my last post

6.  That's a mis-quote.  He said that he has spoiled people with his play and that 3 bad games in 7 yrs are being called out.  I don't really think that said all that much aside from him thinking people are crazy for all of a sudden questioning his quality of play due to a few bad ones, but I also admit this may just me being a Clevelander, lol.

You do need multiple stars and currently we have a mega-star with solid role players, yet to find the missing piece, but our front office has certainly shown their willingness to make moves and try to win at any cost, which is something to be considered.  Having an owner willing to blow 90+ million on a bball season is pretty nice.

[brewcity77]

The Lakers 16 world titles and the Celtics 17, think the Bulls 6 are kinda cute.

This is another allure to the Bulls, though. If LeBron comes to Chicago, and if he believes that he can truly exceed what MJ did, it's possible to think that he believes he can win more than Jordan did. And if he played in Chicago for 12 years and won 7 championships, which is not out of the realm of possibility (though admittedly a lofty goal) then he would be able to retire potentially with a good handle on the "greatest ever" argument.

And I'm sorry, but LeBron changing his jersey from 23 to 6 just shows how much regard he has for the Celtics 17 titles. Boston fans all cried foul because he had too much respect for Jordan to keep wearing his number, but didn't care that Bill Russell wore the number 6. To someone like LeBron, Michael's 6 titles in Chicago have more value than the 33 of Boston and Los Angeles combined.

And Golden...I do think Cleveland is still a possibility, and I know my quote wasn't exact, but I really think he's on his way out. I think LeBron feels he has outgrown Cleveland, and the criticism and boos from the Cleveland crowd seem to be getting to him. That being said, if he thinks that Chicago will be the magic answer to escaping criticism, he has another thing coming...

[RawdogDX]

I'm 23 years old, and unfortunately for those who are saying young people hold Chicago above the rest isn't exactly accurate, though I will agree some do.  I'll give you that LBJ clearly idolizes MJ and may want to continue his career where MJ had performed at such a high level, however I do think that the glamour argument is one that is depends on perception and timing because as noted above if you look historically Chicago is definitively not glamorous.  However, if you are looking to the era and generation which I am a part of, there is something there for Chicago, though the post-Jordan days have certainly put a damper on those "glamour days" if you ask me.

I should clarify I stated the original Chi is not glamorous in a historical sense and not simply for the LBJ may find it appealing and think it's glamorous argument.

He sure as hell thinks it's glamorous.

He was fan of Jordan growing up, he had to be because everyone was.  

I don't think people from the midwest realize how many Chicago fans there are nation wide.  Not specifically bulls but people from there.  Everywhere I go you on the west coast.  Walk into a bar with 50 people in it, there is a group from chicago.

To say the 3rd market doesn't have draw over Boston (and to put Boston over NY) is ludicrous.  

[Hards Alumni]

From espn.com's Daily Dime...  Money paragraphs.

James, Dwyane Wade and Chris Bosh have already acknowledged they plan to speak together and go over the options they will be presented with in the biggest free-agency period in NBA history, and James' acknowledgement that he has a "game plan" is an indication that things may be farther along than most people realize.

The latest talk making the rounds regarding Chicago is that the Bulls could be the best fit because they already have a top-tier point guard in Derrick Rose and an athletic big man in Joakim Noah, plus they have a coaching vacancy that could conceivably end up being filled by John Calipari, who is extremely close to both Rose and James confidante William Wesley. The Bulls did make a head-scratcher of a trade when they gave away John Salmons and their No. 1 pick to Milwaukee at the trading deadline, but the deal gave them the flexibility to have max money available this summer. Yes, James would have to play the next several years in the shadow of Michael Jordan, but the generation that is as old or younger than James (25) has more vivid memories of Jordan as a Wizard, or as owner of the Bobcats, than they do of him winning six titles for the Bulls.

This is going to get interesting.

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

Some of you guys astound me. Boston is a glamor franchise in marketing purposes/television ratings only. As far as players are concerned, the ranks are probably: LA, NYK, then maybe Chicago, Orlando or Phoenix Boston is far down the list. It's is a known fact that African Americans Celtics have had problems with that city for decades. It is not a desired destination for players. 

[copious1218]

Rose is a beast and a game changer.  Anyone who thinks jennings is on his level is delusional.  Players all talk about how tough he is to guard.  He's the closest thing to wade right now.

Rose put up 23 ppg in the 2nd half of his sophomore season season.  (he wasn't healthy coming into the year.)
If you can say the same about Jennings next year I'll be shocked.  Put it on your outlook calendar.

That is precisely the point I made it my previous post on this subject.  PPGs is not the only stat I care about for my point guard.  I currently put Rose above Jennings as an all-around PG.  Rose will likely be the better scoring PG between the two.  But, I believe that Jennings has the ability to be the better all-around PG.  

Having said that, if I am building a roster tomorrow I take Rose over Jennings - Rose, at this point, is a known commodity.

[GoldenWarrior]

He sure as hell thinks it's glamorous.

He was fan of Jordan growing up, he had to be because everyone was.  

I don't think people from the midwest realize how many Chicago fans there are nation wide.  Not specifically bulls but people from there.  Everywhere I go you on the west coast.  Walk into a bar with 50 people in it, there is a group from chicago.

To say the 3rd market doesn't have draw over Boston (and to put Boston over NY) is ludicrous.  

I don't quite follow this... are you just saying that Chicago is highly populated? lol

Yeah, I said I do think an argument is there for LBJ seeing something about Chicago given when we were growing up, but don't think that he's simply going to go because of that, he's going to go so he can get his money and win... Cleveland is certainly still int hat conversation as well as is Chicago.

[brewcity77]

I don't quite follow this... are you just saying that Chicago is highly populated? lol

No, he's saying that Chicago sports fans have a presence across the country. If you go to a sports bar in Miami, there will be Chicago fans there. You'll find the same in Boston, Los Angeles, New York, Houston, or pretty much any other major city. Chicago has fans everywhere, not just in the Midwest.

Look at the top teams in terms of total merchandise sales:

1) Lakers
2) Celtics
3) Cavs
4) Bulls
5) Knicks

And the top individual jerseys:

1) Kobe Bryant
2) LeBron James
3) Kevin Garnett
4) Derrick Rose
5) Dwight Howard
6) Dwyane Wade
7) Chris Paul
8) Paul Pierce
9) Kevin Durant
10) Carmelo Anthony

The Bulls sell despite not having won a title in a decade. Rose outsells Wade, Paul, and Howard despite not having the career accolades they have. And if LeBron comes to Chicago, I think there's a very good chance that the Bulls would top overall team sales and he would top individual jersey sales.

The Bulls are a glamor franchise, and LeBron would only add to the luster.

Source: http://www.nba.com/2010/news/04/28/jersey.sales/index.html

[GGGG]

I'm 23 years old, and unfortunately for those who are saying young people hold Chicago above the rest isn't exactly accurate, though I will agree some do.  I'll give you that LBJ clearly idolizes MJ and may want to continue his career where MJ had performed at such a high level, however I do think that the glamour argument is one that is depends on perception and timing because as noted above if you look historically Chicago is definitively not glamorous.  However, if you are looking to the era and generation which I am a part of, there is something there for Chicago, though the post-Jordan days have certainly put a damper on those "glamour days" if you ask me.

I should clarify I stated the original Chi is not glamorous in a historical sense and not simply for the LBJ may find it appealing and think it's glamorous argument.

Before 2008, the last Celtics title was something like 1985.  Between that, they by and large were mediocre if not simply sucked.  They have a history and tradition, but I would not call them a "glamour" franchise. 

[GoldenWarrior]

No, he's saying that Chicago sports fans have a presence across the country. If you go to a sports bar in Miami, there will be Chicago fans there. You'll find the same in Boston, Los Angeles, New York, Houston, or pretty much any other major city. Chicago has fans everywhere, not just in the Midwest.

Look at the top teams in terms of total merchandise sales:

1) Lakers
2) Celtics
3) Cavs
4) Bulls
5) Knicks

And the top individual jerseys:

1) Kobe Bryant
2) LeBron James
3) Kevin Garnett
4) Derrick Rose
5) Dwight Howard
6) Dwyane Wade
7) Chris Paul
8) Paul Pierce
9) Kevin Durant
10) Carmelo Anthony

The Bulls sell despite not having won a title in a decade. Rose outsells Wade, Paul, and Howard despite not having the career accolades they have. And if LeBron comes to Chicago, I think there's a very good chance that the Bulls would top overall team sales and he would top individual jersey sales.

The Bulls are a glamor franchise, and LeBron would only add to the luster.

Source: http://www.nba.com/2010/news/04/28/jersey.sales/index.html

I'm not quite seeing the follow through of there being fans to the Chicago Bulls organization being a glamorous franchise in sports?

[reinko]

Glamorous cities for NBA players, in no specific order:

~LA (Hollywood)
~Atlanta (strip clubs and hip hop)
~Miami (weather and no state taxes)
~Dallas (ownership)

[GoldenWarrior]

Before 2008, the last Celtics title was something like 1985.  Between that, they by and large were mediocre if not simply sucked.  They have a history and tradition, but I would not call them a "glamour" franchise. 

Look the glamor argument is all perception depending on the person evaluating it.  I'm all about history and 17 titles or whatever speaks VOLUMES to me even though I'm only 23... others my age only care about what's more current and that's Chicago.  Some are saying if there's a lot of fans then that makes it a glamorous organization... it's all personal feelings and there's no way we are all gonna agree on it.  I will just say I don't think Chicago as 'glamorous'