Dawson's Defense and Playing Time

[Windyplayer]

77 points should be enough to win. In fact, if MU had scored 77 points in every game this season, they would have been 17-2 heading into the Nova game.

Well, it wasn't because our defense was atrocious with D Wilson on the floor so we needed that extra offensive boost that Dawson could have provided. You can't tell me that Dawson's defense would have made a noticeable difference for the worse and would have outweighed the increase in offense.

[madtownwarrior]

and why has not Marquette averaged 77 in every game - anything do do with our Starting PG averaging 5.1 ppg and 3.8 apg?

but he is the "lockdown defender" as exhibited in the Villanova game...

Marquette needed a "near miracle" from Mayo to take Georgetown into OT but I don't recall any of the "All Dawson, All the time" contingent mentioning that. Does that win not count?

77 points should be enough to win. In fact, if MU had scored 77 points in every game this season, they would have been 17-2 heading into the Nova game.

[Windyplayer]

I think people acknowledge the near miracle needed at GT.    They also acknowledge that a Dawson lead team won handily in OT.    How did that Wilson lead OT go at Butler or against Vill?

Funny you ask...we were outscored 37-16 in those OTs combined.

[brandx]

The important comparison, and really the only one that matters, is that Buzz clearly believes Derrick is the better defender. And that the offense was being successful enough to not need Dawson's added contributions.

Ridiculous. Dawson cannot play worse defense than DW on Saturday. Buzz was afraid to even put him on the opposing PG in OT who ate Mayo alive.

And our offense has been successful enough so that as of now the ONLY way to '64' is to win the conference tournament.

Obviously, you and I have a different definition of 'successful'

[MerrittsMustache]

Well, it wasn't because our defense was atrocious with D Wilson on the floor so we needed that extra offensive boost that Dawson could have provided. You can't tell me that Dawson's defense would have made a noticeable difference for the worse and would have outweighed the increase in offense.

Sure, I can.

Villanova scored 22 points in the 8 minutes that Dawson was on the floor (2.75 pts/min). Villanova scored 72 points in the 36 minutes Derrick was on the floor (2.0 pts/min).

Marquette scored 15 points in the 8 minutes that Dawson was on the floor (1.88 pts/min). Marquette scored 70 points in the 36 minutes Derrick was on the floor (1.94 pts/min).

In other words, Nova scored 0.75 more points/min with Dawson in the game while MU scored 0.07 points less with Dawson in the game.

[MerrittsMustache]

Listen, a lot of posters have come out of the woodwork to rip on Derrick and on Buzz and pretend like John Dawson's one good game means that he's the answer to all of Marquette's problem (yes, that was hyperbole).

Personally, I think that Dawson is a really talented player and he's going to be a solid contributor for Marquette in the future. I also think that Derrick gives this team a better chance to win right now. Buzz Williams and his coaching staff know the players and their abilities more than any of us ever will and they also believe that Derrick gives this team the best chance to win. I'm going to side with him over a group of frustrated fans.

BTW, don't expect a response from me. I'll be taking a break from posting for a while. There's just too much ridiculousness, ignorance and vitriol on here right now.

[brandx]

Sure, I can.

Villanova scored 22 points in the 8 minutes that Dawson was on the floor (2.75 pts/min). Villanova scored 72 points in the 36 minutes Derrick was on the floor (2.0 pts/min).

Marquette scored 15 points in the 8 minutes that Dawson was on the floor (1.88 pts/min). Marquette scored 70 points in the 36 minutes Derrick was on the floor (1.94 pts/min).

In other words, Nova scored 0.75 more points/min with Dawson in the game while MU scored 0.07 points less with Dawson in the game.

One good thing about your analysis - the smaller the sampling, the easier to prove a point.

No one as yet has had any explanation for why our great defensive player wasn't guarding the guy going off in OT - even tho they were both point guards. This is the point I will bring up whenever you guys talk about DW's defense and Dawson's lack of it.

Obviously, Buzz lacks confidence in Derrick's defense.

[Windyplayer]

Sure, I can.

Villanova scored 22 points in the 8 minutes that Dawson was on the floor (2.75 pts/min). Villanova scored 72 points in the 36 minutes Derrick was on the floor (2.0 pts/min).

Marquette scored 15 points in the 8 minutes that Dawson was on the floor (1.88 pts/min). Marquette scored 70 points in the 36 minutes Derrick was on the floor (1.94 pts/min).

In other words, Nova scored 0.75 more points/min with Dawson in the game while MU scored 0.07 points less with Dawson in the game.

There are so many things wrong with those stats in attempting to valdiate your positition. But you seem bright enough to know what they are so I'll save myself a minute or two.

Generally, the frustating thing about this is that we've seen what Dawson is capable of in short stints and for the most part is pretty promising. Wilson has played and played...and lost and lost. Why not give Dawson a chance to lose a few games. Not even Buzz knows what Dawson would do if he was given 30 minutes on the floor. I don't know what Buzz's motives are and he may very well start playing Dawson more down the stretch and Dawson may play well. But that doesn't mean Buzz did his job--he should be questioned for why he didn't make the move so much more earlier in the season when the team still had a puncher's chance at the tourney. 

The point is, I want to see Dawson lose a game with 30 mintues under his belt.

[Nevada233]

There are so many things wrong with those stats in attempting to valdiate your positition. But you seem bright enough to know what they are so I'll save myself a minute or two.

Generally, the frustating thing about this is that we've seen what Dawson is capable of in short stints and for the most part is pretty promising. Wilson has played and played...and lost and lost. Why not give Dawson a chance to lose a few games. Not even Buzz knows what Dawson would do if he was given 30 minutes on the floor. I don't know what Buzz's motives are and he may very well start playing Dawson more down the stretch and Dawson may play well. But that doesn't mean Buzz did his job--he should be questioned for why he didn't make the move so much more earlier in the season when the team still had a puncher's chance at the tourney.  

The point is, I want to see Dawson lose a game with 30 mintues under his belt.

Marquette will has not and will not beat any team worth talking about this year (George Washington.... ehhh I guess) with Derrick Wilson playing 30 Minutes a game.... its just not gonna happen...

So yall can pretend what hes doing is wonderful... But anyone with a functioning brain knows he isn't... this team is in danger of finishing under .500

unless things change...... and change quick.... Trash Dawson all you guys want but Marquettes only win worth talking about came with him playing 31 minutes.....

the 9 Losses... Different story.. Im still waiting for someone to tell me what game has Derrick won this year or in the two previous seasons...

[NersEllenson]

Listen, a lot of posters have come out of the woodwork to rip on Derrick and on Buzz and pretend like John Dawson's one good game means that he's the answer to all of Marquette's problem (yes, that was hyperbole).

Personally, I think that Dawson is a really talented player and he's going to be a solid contributor for Marquette in the future. I also think that Derrick gives this team a better chance to win right now. Buzz Williams and his coaching staff know the players and their abilities more than any of us ever will and they also believe that Derrick gives this team the best chance to win. I'm going to side with him over a group of frustrated fans.

BTW, don't expect a response from me. I'll be taking a break from posting for a while. There's just too much ridiculousness, ignorance and vitriol on here right now.

That's all fine and well that you think this...but....we aren't winning right now (at least not against anyone of any decency - damn near lost at home to Seton Hall and eeked out an ugly win against DePaul.)

But, I do agree with you on their being too much ignorance on this board - thankfully when you stop posting and trying to assert that our PG play isn't what ails this team above all else - some of that ignorance will subside.  

[ATL MU Warrior]

There are so many things wrong with those stats in attempting to valdiate your positition. But you seem bright enough to know what they are so I'll save myself a minute or two.

Generally, the frustating thing about this is that we've seen what Dawson is capable of in short stints and for the most part is pretty promising. Wilson has played and played...and lost and lost. Why not give Dawson a chance to lose a few games. Not even Buzz knows what Dawson would do if he was given 30 minutes on the floor. I don't know what Buzz's motives are and he may very well start playing Dawson more down the stretch and Dawson may play well. But that doesn't mean Buzz did his job--he should be questioned for why he didn't make the move so much more earlier in the season when the team still had a puncher's chance at the tourney. 

The point is, I want to see Dawson lose a game with 30 mintues under his belt.

It's almost impossible to believe that someone could be so condescending and utterly, hopelessly ignorant in the same post.  

There are more players on this team than Derrick Wilson.  He is not the only reason we are losing games.  

Of course Buzz knows what Dawson is capable of.   Buzz knows more about basketball than you and me and Ners (well, apparently not Ners) and everyone else on Scoop combined.  He sees Dawson for hours every week in practice.  You see him for a few minutes of game action every week.  Are you really telling me that you know more about how Dawson would do if given 30 minutes than Buzz does?  Is that in any way serious?

You say you want to see Dawson play more even if we lose?  WTF!  Do you think Buzz wants to "see what John can do" even if we lose when he ALREADY KNOWS WHAT DAWSON CAN DO BASED ON HOURS OF PRACTICE EACH WEEK?  Buzz doesn't want to lose.  

Buzz's "motives" are to win games.  WTF else would they be?  

[MU82]

The crazy thing here is this doesn't need to be an either/or situation.

Wilson can play more than the 1 mpg his most vocal detractors would prefer, and Dawson can play more than the 8 mpg that Derrick's proponents might want.

I'd like to see Buzz go in thinking they'll split the 40 minutes right down the middle and then make some adjustments on the fly. A 36-8 split in an OT game seems out of line -- and it might help explain why Derrick gets beat late in games.

Even if Dawson is struggling, I'd like to see him get some more rope to overcome his struggles -- if nothing else than to keep Derrick fresh late in games when we really need his defense.

It is accurate that Derrick wasn't on their PG for most of the OT, but that begs two questions:

1. Why not use him to shut down the other team's engine if he is supposed to be the great defensive player his coach ever saw?

2. Why do people seem to forget that Derrick WAS on Arcidiacono on the first possession? That led to a blow-by and 2 FTs. That was followed by Mayo's TO, a 3-point play that included Jamil's 5th foul, a 5-point lead for Nova and a horrible start to what would turn out to be a horrific OT.

Derrick is a decent to good defender who is being asked to do WAY too much, both on defense and offense. Dawson seems to have some offensive ability but needs to get better on defense.

[ATL MU Warrior]

the 9 Losses... Different story.. Im still waiting for someone to tell me what game has Derrick won this year or in the two previous seasons...

What game has any one player won this season, or any previous season?

[Windyplayer]

It's almost impossible to believe that someone could be so condescending and utterly, hopelessly ignorant in the same post.  

There are more players on this team than Derrick Wilson.  He is not the only reason we are losing games.  

Of course Buzz knows what Dawson is capable of.   Buzz knows more about basketball than you and me and Ners (well, apparently not Ners) and everyone else on Scoop combined.  He sees Dawson for hours every week in practice.  You see him for a few minutes of game action every week.  Are you really telling me that you know more about how Dawson would do if given 30 minutes than Buzz does?  Is that in any way serious?

You say you want to see Dawson play more even if we lose?  WTF!  Do you think Buzz wants to "see what John can do" even if we lose when he ALREADY KNOWS WHAT DAWSON CAN DO BASED ON HOURS OF PRACTICE EACH WEEK?  Buzz doesn't want to lose.  

Buzz's "motives" are to win games.  WTF else would they be?  

Yes, Buzz is above all criticism and no one should question his coaching style ever (a few ignoble world leaders would love you as their pawn). I see what Wilson does in games and what Dawson does in games. I don't care what they do in practice--I'm sure Dawson isn't lying on the practice floor refusing to practice. And if Buzz's primary motive is to win games then why suspend anyone ever, or take out a talented player for making a mistake, etc. It's been said here before, but sometimes, I don't think Buzz puts as much emphasis on winning as he should. And I'm by no means want Wilson banished--he's a solid backup to come off the bench and give us 10 minutes (maybe then we'll see his true defensive prowess from last year when he's not winded from going up and down the court for 30 minutes).

[MarquetteDano]

The crazy thing here is this doesn't need to be an either/or situation.

Wilson can play more than the 1 mpg his most vocal detractors would prefer, and Dawson can play more than the 8 mpg that Derrick's proponents might want.

I'd like to see Buzz go in thinking they'll split the 40 minutes right down the middle and then make some adjustments on the fly. A 36-8 split in an OT game seems out of line -- and it might help explain why Derrick gets beat late in games.

This seems quite reasonable.

[brandx]

It's almost impossible to believe that someone could be so condescending and utterly, hopelessly ignorant in the same post.  

There are more players on this team than Derrick Wilson.  He is not the only reason we are losing games.  

Of course Buzz knows what Dawson is capable of.   Buzz knows more about basketball than you and me and Ners (well, apparently not Ners) and everyone else on Scoop combined.  He sees Dawson for hours every week in practice.  You see him for a few minutes of game action every week.  Are you really telling me that you know more about how Dawson would do if given 30 minutes than Buzz does?  Is that in any way serious?

You say you want to see Dawson play more even if we lose?  WTF!  Do you think Buzz wants to "see what John can do" even if we lose when he ALREADY KNOWS WHAT DAWSON CAN DO BASED ON HOURS OF PRACTICE EACH WEEK?  Buzz doesn't want to lose.  

Buzz's "motives" are to win games.  WTF else would they be?  

In fairness, I don't think anyone has said that he is the only reason that we have lost games.

I think the general point of the derrick detractors is that he has been a big reason, but by no means the only one.

[brandx]

The crazy thing here is this doesn't need to be an either/or situation.

Wilson can play more than the 1 mpg his most vocal detractors would prefer, and Dawson can play more than the 8 mpg that Derrick's proponents might want.

I'd like to see Buzz go in thinking they'll split the 40 minutes right down the middle and then make some adjustments on the fly. A 36-8 split in an OT game seems out of line -- and it might help explain why Derrick gets beat late in games.

Even if Dawson is struggling, I'd like to see him get some more rope to overcome his struggles -- if nothing else than to keep Derrick fresh late in games when we really need his defense.

It is accurate that Derrick wasn't on their PG for most of the OT, but that begs two questions:

1. Why not use him to shut down the other team's engine if he is supposed to be the great defensive player his coach ever saw?

2. Why do people seem to forget that Derrick WAS on Arcidiacono on the first possession? That led to a blow-by and 2 FTs. That was followed by Mayo's TO, a 3-point play that included Jamil's 5th foul, a 5-point lead for Nova and a horrible start to what would turn out to be a horrific OT.

Derrick is a decent to good defender who is being asked to do WAY too much, both on defense and offense. Dawson seems to have some offensive ability but needs to get better on defense.

All good points. I think people are probably just more tolerant of a freshman struggling/making mistakes as opposed to a junior.

[ATL MU Warrior]

In fairness, I don't think anyone has said that he is the only reason that we have lost games.

I think the general point of the derrick detractors is that he has been a big reason, but by no means the only one.

actually, it is probably said numerous times per day.

[Windyplayer]

actually, it is probably said numerous times per day.

No, it's been said numerous times that Wilson doesn't give MU its best chance to win. And this team has very little margin for error given the lack of true star power on this year's team.

[PGsHeroes32]

What there is to lose is more basketball games. This team's margin for error is very, very thin. So far this season, they've been on the wrong side of things more often than not, which is rare for Buzz's MU teams. However, the opportunities have been there. The last 3 games have all gone to OT. They all could have gone either way. MU could be 3-0 or 0-3 in those games. The SHU and Xavier games were both one-possession games with under 70 seconds to play. The ASU game came down to the final possession. SDSU, Wisconsin and New Mexico were all close games late. Even the DePaul game was a 3-point game with a little over 4 to play. Yes, MU lost pretty much all of these games but they also easily could have lost to DePaul, SHU or Gtown if Buzz went with the asinine "it can't get worse" philosophy. The current rotation is putting Marquette in position to win games, including games against 3 teams currently ranked in the top 15. Throwing a bunch of frosh out there and hoping for the best isn't the answer.

If Burton and Dawson had played a bulk of the minutes on Saturday, MU would have gotten run out of the gym. With Derrick and Jake getting those minutes, MU was on the verge of an upset. Admittedly, in the end, the result was the same, but wouldn't you rather have players on the floor who give the team the best chance to win?

Look, I'm not opposed to the young players seeing more time but I'm also not dense enough to believe that throwing them out there for 30 minutes a night is what's best for this team.

Wrong. Buzz went with the asanine strategy against Gtown and we won.

It cannot be any simpler. You can guess all day that Burton and Dawson playing vs Nova that we would have gotten blown out. That is hypothetical. Just like its hypothetical to think that they could get us a win.

What is a proven fact is that playing Derrick and Jake is not equating to wins.

[NersEllenson]

Wrong. Buzz went with the asanine strategy against Gtown and we won.

It cannot be any simpler. You can guess all day that Burton and Dawson playing vs Nova that we would have gotten blown out. That is hypothetical. Just like its hypothetical to think that they could get us a win.

What is a proven fact is that playing Derrick and Jake is not equating to wins.

Hit the nail on the head.  Nothing more really needs to be said.  Other than it was more Derrick Wilson choosing to go with more Dawson in the G'Town game, than Buzz - at least according to Jamil.  Derrick had to tell Buzz to keep Dawson in the game.  Pretty funny actually.

[Golden Avalanche]

Wilson played on Arch for the majority of the game until the last 5 minutes and OT.  He switched over to Bell after that.  Whether it was because Bell was hot or Wilson was tired, I have no idea, but Arch got his run when Wilson wasn't guarding him with the exception of one of two possessions.

So of the issue with the drive and dish that worked so well was that the help defender(STj 99% of the time) committed to neither stopping the ball or staying with his man....resulting in the worst of all worlds.

Thank you for elucidation. Knowing whose 1-5 on both squads, and not always getting the defensive assignments on audio, traps you into wrong thinking some of the time. This helps clear some of that up.

Speaking of defense, it is interesting that many people here spend so much time harping on Wilson whilst Bell had a career day. And of Bell's 30 points, only six came in the last five minutes/overtime and four of those six were free throws whereas 11 of Arch's 20 came in the last five minutes/overtime. Seems to me the guys guarding Bell in the beginning and middle of game and then guarding Arch at end of the game have some 'splaining to do.

[MarsupialMadness]

Thank you for elucidation. Knowing whose 1-5 on both squads, and not always getting the defensive assignments on audio, traps you into wrong thinking some of the time. This helps clear some of that up.

Speaking of defense, it is interesting that many people here spend so much time harping on Wilson whilst Bell had a career day. And of Bell's 30 points, only six came in the last five minutes/overtime and four of those six were free throws whereas 11 of Arch's 20 came in the last five minutes/overtime. Seems to me the guys guarding Bell in the beginning and middle of game and then guarding Arch at end of the game have some 'splaining to do.

Agree.  Dude torched us to start out the game.

[willie warrior]

Agree.  Dude torched us to start out the game.

That other stalwart of defense Ja. Wilson was on Bell at the beginning and through most of the first half, until Buzzo finally realized that Wilson was getting torched  so he let bell torch somebody else.

[Eldon]

"Buzz is playing who he believes gives us the best chance to win."

I don't care about winning games. I care about preparing our team for a BE tourney run.

I would rather lose our last ten games if it means a greater shot at winning the BE tourney, which, I believe, Dawson gives us, especially with ten games of 30 minutes.