MU Transfers Help or Hurt?

[Tugg Speedman]

In the Buzz era using only Buzz recruits ...

MU Transfers In =  Jamil Wilson, Trent Lockett, Jake Thomas

MU Transfers Out = Jamil Jones, Eric Williams, Reggie Smith, JMay

Net these two list together, has this been a positive or negative?

I say positive because I believe the two best players on the lists above are Wilson and Lockett.  Or, if this was a proposed trade, I would take Wilson, Lockett and Thomas for the other four players.

Thoughts?

Blue, edited later per the post below

[Lacrosse218]

In the Buzz era using only Buzz recruits ...

MU Transfers In =  Jamil Wilson, Trent Lockett

Don't forget about Jake Thomas......

[National Champs]

Jeronne Maymon played pretty well last year and losing him hurt. Although if he and his headcase father wouldn't have packed their bags for Knoxville, there is a good chance that His Dreadness would not have landed here. Who wouldn't make the trade for Crowder over Maymon? So as far as the transfers you listed I would call it a wash, but it remains to be seen what Lockett and Wilson will do this coming season.

Has there been any talk of a landing spot for Jamail yet?

[MarqBB77-03]

Of course it looks like the transfers in helped the program because those players bought into Buzz's system and contributed or will contribute.  With the guys who transferred out, they were not contributing on the level that we and/or they would like.  I think with all transfers out this is the case.  For those who transfer out, you hope that they find the success they want at their next school.

I really like Jones and Williams, I am sorry they were unable to realize the success they wanted while at Marquette.  I wish them the best.

With Reggie and JMay, they realized early on that what they thought was the right program, was not.  Good for them for realizing it early and making a change before it hurt them or the program.  It is no different that taking a new job and quickly realizing that you have made a mistake because you do not fit in the company's culture.

[MUMac]

Don't forget about Jake Thomas......

And on the "out" list, Patrick Hazel.

[Tugg Speedman]

Thomas is a walk-on which is why I did not include him.  But I will add him.  Hazel was a Crean recruit.  I cut it off with Buzz recruits.

[Golden Avalanche]

In the Buzz era using only Buzz recruits ...

MU Transfers In =  Jamil Wilson, Trent Lockett, Jake Thomas

MU Transfers Out = Jamil Jones, Eric Williams, Reggie Smith, JMay

Net these two list together, has this been a positive or negative?

I say positive because I believe the two best players on the lists above are Wilson and Lockett.  Or, if this was a proposed trade, I would take Wilson, Lockett and Thomas for the other four players.

Thoughts?

Blue, edited later per the post below

To this point, Maymon is the best player listed. Therefore, it's a negative.

[nycwarrior]

Not apples to apples I know but transfers create a spot that gets filled by someone who isn't necessarily a transfer.

For instance, the transfer of Maymon made room for Crowder. That's a trade I think we'd all make.

[The Equalizer]

For instance, the transfer of Maymon made room for Crowder. That's a trade I think we'd all make.

Not necessarily true.

We had four other incoming players the year Crowder signed.  There was plenty of room for Crowder wthout Maymon's departure.

Plus, you're relying on 20/20 hindsight.

Very few would trade a top 50 frosh big averaging 16 mpg/4ppg/4rpg in his first nine games for a little known juco who had to complete two years of classwork in one season--and who you wouldn't know if he'd be successful until the end of summer classes.

[lab_warrior]

Disagree about "little known".  Jae was the NJCAA player of the year, and was very highly sought by a lot of teams other than MU. 

[Goose]

LabWarrior
You had no idea who Jae was prior to his arrival and now an expert. It worked out well but hardly the best route. For the record, who were the other elite programs after Jae?

[Pakuni]

LabWarrior
You had no idea who Jae was prior to his arrival and now an expert. It worked out well but hardly the best route. For the record, who were the other elite programs after Jae?

Jae was well on his way to becoming National JUCO Player of the Year by the time he committed to Marquette. He wasn't well known, but he wasn't some mystery man either.

"Other" elite programs implies MU is elite, which it isn't. However, other schools recruiting Jae (according to MU Scoop Wiki) included UNLV, Baylor and Georgia.

What do you mean "hardly the best route?" Finding under recruited players from the JUCO ranks (see: Butler; Crowder; DJO) seems to have been a pretty decent route so far for Buzz & Co.

[Dawson Rental]

Not necessarily true.

We had four other incoming players the year Crowder signed.  There was plenty of room for Crowder wthout Maymon's departure.

Plus, you're relying on 20/20 hindsight.

Very few would trade a top 50 frosh big averaging 16 mpg/4ppg/4rpg in his first nine games for a little known juco who had to complete two years of classwork in one season--and who you wouldn't know if he'd be successful until the end of summer classes.

I think Buzz would have traded Maymon for Rick Majerus in his walk-on days.  Some believe that Maymon left under pressure from his Dad.  I am of the opinion that Jeronnie wanted to stay, but was told he was no longer welcome after his father and his AAU coach went to the Athletic Department to try and go over Buzz's head about how Jeronnie was being used.  Tim Maymon became an instant embarrassment to MU from the moment basketball season started, and that was the last straw.

[Goose]

Of course Maymon wanted to stay and thus his meeting days before leaving. His Dad made his staying impossible. Maymon wanted to stay and he was no longer welcome.

[real chili 83]

I think Buzz would have traded Maymon for Rick Majerus in his walk-on days.  Some believe that Maymon left under pressure from his Dad.  I am of the opinion that Jeronnie wanted to stay, but was told he was no longer welcome after his father and his AAU coach went to the Athletic Department to try and go over Buzz's head about how Jeronnie was being used.  Tim Maymon became an instant embarrassment to MU from the moment basketball season started, and that was the last straw.

This will come across as tacky to some, but here it goes.....if you want to get a feel for Tim Maymon's character, look it up.....http://wcca.wicourts.gov/index.xsl. You can do the rest from here, and form your own opinion.

What you find is no reflection on his son's character.  They are two different people.

[bilsu]

You forgot McMorrow, Mbao, Roseboro, Newbill and Singleton.
As good as we were last year, you have to wonder how good we would have been, if everyting went as planned. Fisrt start off with no injuries to Otule and Gardner. Add in an extra good practice player in Singleton. Add in Eric Wiliams with a healthy shoulder and than add Reggie Smith as starter or backup point. Singelton was non scholarship and Williams and Smith's scholarships went unused last year, so they all could have been on the team last year.

[Tugg Speedman]

You forgot McMorrow, Mbao, Roseboro, Newbill and Singleton.
As good as we were last year, you have to wonder how good we would have been, if everyting went as planned. Fisrt start off with no injuries to Otule and Gardner. Add in an extra good practice player in Singleton. Add in Eric Wiliams with a healthy shoulder and than add Reggie Smith as starter or backup point. Singelton was non scholarship and Williams and Smith's scholarships went unused last year, so they all could have been on the team last year.

Four of those guys never put on a uniform which is why I did not include them.  I should have added Mbao because he did play a little.

Regarding your other comment.  Singleton would have never seen the floor, he would have had Frozena minutes.  Reggie would have seen Dwill type of minutes and Ewill would have played slightly more than JJ.

The game changer was the Outle and Gardner injuries.

[madtownwarrior]

You had no idea who Jae was prior to his arrival and now an expert. It worked out well but hardly the best route.

Almost sounds like a golden domer who wants the program to go the way the likes of SLU. 

Jae was not an unknown and it was pretty much the best route to get a Big East POY caliber at player at that time due to the roster imbalance. 

[brewcity77]

LabWarrior
You had no idea who Jae was prior to his arrival and now an expert. It worked out well but hardly the best route. For the record, who were the other elite programs after Jae?

Jae was an unknown when he committed to Marquette, but LW's right about other major schools getting involved. Baylor definitely offered late, I believe Missouri did as well, and a few others.

As I remember the timeline going, his coach invited Buzz down to see him, Buzz watched him play, but saddled with foul trouble, only played a few minutes and basically had an awful showing. Buzz offered him anyway. I want to say Jae committed to Marquette in February. Shortly thereafter, he won the NJCAA POY award as well as the national championship and despite having committed to Marquette, the other offers began to flood in. Thankfully, he stayed true to his commitment, but the other interest was definitely there, albeit very late in the game.

[The Equalizer]

Disagree about "little known".  Jae was the NJCAA player of the year, and was very highly sought by a lot of teams other than MU. 

He wasn't NJCAA POY when he was being recruited.  His verbal came in February and at the time he wasn't being heavily recruited.  He wasn't even well known on our own board judging from the comments from the time of his commitment.

And no matter how good he was, it was still a huge risk taking a player who had to complete two years of classwork in one year with zero margin for error.  As I recall, Jae wasn't on the MU campus over the summer becuase he needed summer classes to finish his JUCO associates degree.

The risk paid off, but it was still a risk.  Anyone who claims this wasn't a risky move is ignoring facts.

[MerrittsMustache]

Of course Maymon wanted to stay and thus his meeting days before leaving. His Dad made his staying impossible. Maymon wanted to stay and he was no longer welcome.

Jeronne on his own was still welcome. Unfortunately, he came as a package deal with his lunatic father.

[Benny B]

He wasn't NJCAA POY when he was being recruited.  His verbal came in February and at the time he wasn't being heavily recruited.  He wasn't even well known on our own board judging from the comments from the time of his commitment.

And no matter how good he was, it was still a huge risk taking a player who had to complete two years of classwork in one year with zero margin for error.  As I recall, Jae wasn't on the MU campus over the summer becuase he needed summer classes to finish his JUCO associates degree.

The risk paid off, but it was still a risk.  Anyone who claims this wasn't a risky move is ignoring facts.

So if a recruit doesn't have a 10-page thread written about him on MUScoop, then he's a risk?

And here, I've been patronizing this website purely for entertainment purposes, I didn't realize I should be taking everyone seriously.

[Lennys Tap]

He wasn't NJCAA POY when he was being recruited.  His verbal came in February and at the time he wasn't being heavily recruited.  He wasn't even well known on our own board judging from the comments from the time of his commitment.

And no matter how good he was, it was still a huge risk taking a player who had to complete two years of classwork in one year with zero margin for error.  As I recall, Jae wasn't on the MU campus over the summer becuase he needed summer classes to finish his JUCO associates degree.

The risk paid off, but it was still a risk.  Anyone who claims this wasn't a risky move is ignoring facts.

This risky/non risky stuff is silly. Every time a player takes a step up (high school to college, Juco to D1) there is risk, but to say that Crowder was a huge risk in February 2010 but a stud one month later (because he won POY) is asinine. And Buzz knew exactly where Jae stood academically and was obviously comfortable that his progress at Howard from August to February had him on track.

I think that the reverse is actually true - it's less risky recruiting a 19 or 20 year old man from junior college than a 15,16 or 17 year old kid from high school.

[NersEllenson]

This risky/non risky stuff is silly. Every time a player takes a step up (high school to college, Juco to D1) there is risk, but to say that Crowder was a huge risk in February 2010 but a stud one month later (because he won POY) is asinine. And Buzz knew exactly where Jae stood academically and was obviously comfortable that his progress at Howard from August to February had him on track.

I think that the reverse is actually true - it's less risky recruiting a 19 or 20 year old man from junior college than a 15,16 or 17 year old kid from high school.

+1 - Well said.

[brewcity77]

So if a recruit doesn't have a 10-page thread written about him on MUScoop, then he's a risk?

I agree with 84 here, there was definitely a risk. Buzz saw Jae "play" once, mostly in a cheerleader role, and knew that getting his academics in order would be no small task. Of course, he also trusted the judgment of Jae's JUCO coach, so it was a calculated risk, but the entire argument he makes stems from the notion that Jae was well-known and highly recruited. At the time of his commitment, he was neither. Things obviously worked out for the best, but anyone acting as though they knew things would go so swimmingly, even Buzz himself, would be lying.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

All players are risks.

Some bigger than others.

I trust that Buzz and co. can accurately evaluate the risk/reward and make decisions appropriately.

Jae turned out AWESOME. Durley, not so much. Happens all of the time to every coach.

[The Equalizer]

This risky/non risky stuff is silly. Every time a player takes a step up (high school to college, Juco to D1) there is risk, but to say that Crowder was a huge risk in February 2010 but a stud one month later (because he won POY) is asinine. And Buzz knew exactly where Jae stood academically and was obviously comfortable that his progress at Howard from August to February had him on track.

I think that the reverse is actually true - it's less risky recruiting a 19 or 20 year old man from junior college than a 15,16 or 17 year old kid from high school.

All I can say is re-read the article below.  

If you don't think there was risk involved in signing Crowder, then you don't understand the concept of risk.

http://collegebasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/01/15/jae-crowder-almost-didnt-make-it-out-of-the-juco-ranks/

[Benny B]

All I can say is re-read the article below.  

If you don't think there was risk involved in signing Crowder, then you don't understand the concept of risk.

http://collegebasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/01/15/jae-crowder-almost-didnt-make-it-out-of-the-juco-ranks/

If you want to talk about risk conceptually, you must also talk reward, i.e. if you don't think the potential reward with Jae Crowder was worth the risk, then you don't understand the concept of risk.

Newsflash... EVERY recruit is a risk.  Most of the low-risk, high-reward recruits go to Kentucky, Duke, UNC, etc., so if you want high-reward guys at MU, you're going to take high-level risks.  That's not to say that every guy you recruit has to be high-risk, but to imply that Jae Crowder was a risk greater than the potential reward is borderline idiotic.

Read your article... Buzz only saw Jae once in person.  That doesn't mean he didn't already know what he needed to know before he arrived at the gym that day.

[Lennys Tap]

If you want to talk about risk conceptually, you must also talk reward, i.e. if you don't think the potential reward with Jae Crowder was worth the risk, then you don't understand the concept of risk.

Newsflash... EVERY recruit is a risk.  Most of the low-risk, high-reward recruits go to Kentucky, Duke, UNC, etc., so if you want high-reward guys at MU, you're going to take high-level risks.  That's not to say that every guy you recruit has to be high-risk, but to imply that Jae Crowder was a risk greater than the potential reward is borderline idiotic.

Read your article... Buzz only saw Jae once in person.  That doesn't mean he didn't already know what he needed to know before he arrived at the gym that day.

I was preparing a response to 84 and Brew, but this says it all.

[brewcity77]

No one has disputed that there was a potential reward pay-off. No one has disputed that it didn't work out well. My response regarding Jae is primarily in regards to this false post:

Disagree about "little known".  Jae was the NJCAA player of the year, and was very highly sought by a lot of teams other than MU. 

When Jae committed, he was NOT NJCAA POY, had not won a JUCO national championship, and was NOT very highly sought by a lot of teams other than MU. He committed in February, when he was still an academic risk and arguably not even the best player on his team.

By the time the JUCO season wrapped up and his accolades and title were won, he did indeed become highly sought after. But at the time he committed, not many teams were knocking at his door. The risk to reward ratio was much higher in February when he committed than April when other schools came sniffing. That's all I'm saying.

[Pakuni]

No one has disputed that there was a potential reward pay-off. No one has disputed that it didn't work out well. My response regarding Jae is primarily in regards to this false post:

When Jae committed, he was NOT NJCAA POY, had not won a JUCO national championship, and was NOT very highly sought by a lot of teams other than MU. He committed in February, when he was still an academic risk and arguably not even the best player on his team.

By the time the JUCO season wrapped up and his accolades and title were won, he did indeed become highly sought after. But at the time he committed, not many teams were knocking at his door. The risk to reward ratio was much higher in February when he committed than April when other schools came sniffing. That's all I'm saying.

I really find it unlikely that Jae was a virtual unknown (and maybe not even best player on his team ... laughable because no one else on Hill was first-team, second-team or honorable mention AA) in February 2010, yet a nationally known hot commodity two months later.
Keep in mind, JUCO season starts about the same time D-I season starts, so by February, his season would have been about 2/3 over.

Also laughable is the labeling of Jae Crowder as a "risk" in a thread discussing him as replacement for Jeronne Maymon.

Is there a difference between sought, highly sought and very highly sought? We know, for example, that Baylor, UNLV and Georgia were recruiting Jae when he committed. Were they seeking him or very highly seeking him?

[The Equalizer]

Most of the low-risk, high-reward recruits go to Kentucky, Duke, UNC, etc., so if you want high-reward guys at MU, you're going to take high-level risks.  That's not to say that every guy you recruit has to be high-risk, but to imply that Jae Crowder was a risk greater than the potential reward is borderline idiotic.

In other words, you agree with me.  Crowder was a higher risk player.

[lab_warrior]

If recruiting JUCOs is all about risk-reward analysis, then I would like to send Buzz to Vegas, so that he can come back with a dump truck full of $$$$.  Butler, DJO, Jae, Fulce, Buycks...the guy is definitely playing with house money.

[Lennys Tap]

If recruiting JUCOs is all about risk-reward analysis, then I would like to send Buzz to Vegas, so that he can come back with a dump truck full of $$$$.  Butler, DJO, Jae, Fulce, Buycks...the guy is definitely playing with house money.

Buzz is in the wrong business. He should be a venture capitalist. He could turn us thousandaires into multimillionaires and billionaires!

[Benny B]

Buzz is in the wrong business. He should be a venture capitalist. He could turn us thousandaires into multimillionaires and billionaires!

He might also turn you into a hundredaire if you decide to cash out after Jeronne Maymon.

[brewcity77]

I really find it unlikely that Jae was a virtual unknown (and maybe not even best player on his team ... laughable because no one else on Hill was first-team, second-team or honorable mention AA) in February 2010, yet a nationally known hot commodity two months later.
Keep in mind, JUCO season starts about the same time D-I season starts, so by February, his season would have been about 2/3 over.

Then why didn't he have other offers at the time he committed? And at Howard, Carlos Emory was more highly recruited out of high school, averaged 11.4/7.4 as a freshman alongside Jae, and ended up committing to Oregon after his sophomore season. By the end of the year, both were getting a lot of attention, and he ended up just as highly recruited as Jae, getting offers from Baylor, West Virginia, Oklahoma, and Utah, among others.

Also laughable is the labeling of Jae Crowder as a "risk" in a thread discussing him as replacement for Jeronne Maymon.

It's all about context. If you're only looking at it in the now, sure, it looks that way, but at the time, Jae was a guy we didn't know anything about and hoped would be close to good enough to offset the loss of Lazar Hayward, while Jeronne was a top-50 in-state kid that we had just months earlier thought could become the new star of the program.

Is there a difference between sought, highly sought and very highly sought? We know, for example, that Baylor, UNLV and Georgia were recruiting Jae when he committed. Were they seeking him or very highly seeking him?

None of those offers were in at the time he committed. I'm not saying it wasn't a great move, I'm not saying it didn't work out, all I'm saying is that anyone acting like they knew 100% that Jae would not only replace Lazar, but prove to be a better player as a senior is lying.

I'm overjoyed Jae came here. When it comes to a player working out perfectly, I don't think you could script a story much better than the one that led Jae Crowder from high school to Howard to Marquette unless it ended in another national championship. But to say we could see this coming in February 2010 just doesn't quite seem accurate.

[Lennys Tap]

He might also turn you into a hundredaire if you decide to cash out after Jeronne Maymon.

When you return 100-1, 1000-1 or more on your hits (JFB a Juco "honorable mention" AA to 1st round draft choice  - are you kidding me?) you can afford some (actually lots) of misses. And at those ROIs ypu don't need to invest much.

[Lennys Tap]

Then why didn't he have other offers at the time he committed? And at Howard, Carlos Emory was more highly recruited out of high school, averaged 11.4/7.4 as a freshman alongside Jae, and ended up committing to Oregon after his sophomore season. By the end of the year, both were getting a lot of attention, and he ended up just as highly recruited as Jae, getting offers from Baylor, West Virginia, Oklahoma, and Utah, among others.

It's all about context. If you're only looking at it in the now, sure, it looks that way, but at the time, Jae was a guy we didn't know anything about and hoped would be close to good enough to offset the loss of Lazar Hayward, while Jeronne was a top-50 in-state kid that we had just months earlier thought could become the new star of the program.

None of those offers were in at the time he committed. I'm not saying it wasn't a great move, I'm not saying it didn't work out, all I'm saying is that anyone acting like they knew 100% that Jae would not only replace Lazar, but prove to be a better player as a senior is lying.

I'm overjoyed Jae came here. When it comes to a player working out perfectly, I don't think you could script a story much better than the one that led Jae Crowder from high school to Howard to Marquette unless it ended in another national championship. But to say we could see this coming in February 2010 just doesn't quite seem accurate.

Jae exceeded Scoop fan's expectations. Noone would argue that. Hats off to Monarch and Buzz for seeing more there than you or me. Hats off to Jae for making it happen. But don't you think that just maybe Jae was less of a risk for those truly in the know (Buzz, Monarch and Jae himself) than for the average Scooper?

[Pakuni]

Then why didn't he have other offers at the time he committed? And at Howard, Carlos Emory was more highly recruited out of high school, averaged 11.4/7.4 as a freshman alongside Jae, and ended up committing to Oregon after his sophomore season. By the end of the year, both were getting a lot of attention, and he ended up just as highly recruited as Jae, getting offers from Baylor, West Virginia, Oklahoma, and Utah, among others.

Jae was first-team AA and POY. I'm assuming those honors were earned based on the totality of his work that season, not just what he did after Feb. 3 when the season was 2/3 complete.
Emory wasn't even honorable mention AA. Which means he wasn't considered among the top 43 JUCO players that season.
Given that, who would reasonably argue Jae wasn't the best player on that team?

It's all about context. If you're only looking at it in the now, sure, it looks that way, but at the time, Jae was a guy we didn't know anything about and hoped would be close to good enough to offset the loss of Lazar Hayward, while Jeronne was a top-50 in-state kid that we had just months earlier thought could become the new star of the program.

My point is Jeronne from the time he committed to MU was considered a pretty substantial risk (academically, behaviorally and daddy-issue wise), so it's ironic that he's somehow being portrayed as a more "safe" recruit than Jae simply because he was better known around here.

all I'm saying is that anyone acting like they knew 100% that Jae would not only replace Lazar, but prove to be a better player as a senior is lying.

Pretty sure nobody has said anything remotely close to that. What's been said is that losing Maymon and gaining Crowder turned out pretty well for Marquette.
Does anyone disagree?

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

This thread is one of the finer semantic arguments I've ever seen.

Risk is the word of the day, kids.

What it actually means... well... that's for the Marquette message boards to debate. 

[warthog-driver]

This risky/non risky stuff is silly. Every time a player takes a step up (high school to college, Juco to D1) there is risk, but to say that Crowder was a huge risk in February 2010 but a stud one month later (because he won POY) is asinine. And Buzz knew exactly where Jae stood academically and was obviously comfortable that his progress at Howard from August to February had him on track.

I think that the reverse is actually true - it's less risky recruiting a 19 or 20 year old man from junior college than a 15,16 or 17 year old kid from high school.

Well put, Lenny