David Ortiz and Manny on doping list

[ChicosBailBonds]

Shocking I tell ya, shocking.


http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/31/sports/baseball/31doping.html?_r=1



For the record, it would not surprise me if a few guys on my Halos were on it as well...including Vlad, Glaus and Fulmer

[VwArrior1]

Glad to see I'm not the only Angels fan on this site.  I doubt Vlad has taken steroids.  His numbers are just too consistent throughout the years.

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

I am flabbergasted that lovable David Ortiz, who was RELEASED BY THE TWINS!!!, partook in this. I thought it was the boy genius Theo Epstein who rejuventated "Big Papi's" career. Varitek? Johnny Damon? Please! Let's throw Nomar (I know he wasn't on the champs) on that heap as well...no doubt about it.

The whole organization was a walking syringe!!

PS: Lockdown, you "doubt Vlad has taken steroids? Give me a break!

[g0lden3agle]

I think at this point it isn't fair to those that have been ousted through these back alley transactions that the other 90 some players that were on the list have not been made public as well.  This list was never intended to become public, and now names have started to slowly trickle out, putting the spotlight on a few guys at a time.  If the MLB were to just release all the names, the press coverage of this one release would be far less than the time they would spend on each individual leak.

[mugrad99]

If I were one of these players outed, I would sue. These tests were taken voluntarily based on the fact that the results would not become public. If I lost one dollar of earnings because of this, someone would be sued.

[4everwarriors]

I'm actually shocked when a player has not used steroids. We're talking a lot of money on player contracts. I think they're all guilty of enhancing their performance. Pitchers, and their arm/shoulder injuries are the most obvious along with the sudden new found power hitters.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Glad to see I'm not the only Angels fan on this site.  I doubt Vlad has taken steroids.  His numbers are just too consistent throughout the years.

Impossible to say, but I understand your point.  Ortiz went from average player to God like player (remember, he was basically just released from the Twins).  Vlad has basically done the same thing year in and year out his whole career, but who knows.  Nothing surprises me anymore.

[ChicosBailBonds]

If I were one of these players outed, I would sue. These tests were taken voluntarily based on the fact that the results would not become public. If I lost one dollar of earnings because of this, someone would be sued.

Do you think they would win?  It sort of screams like the burglar suing the homeowner because the dog bit him when he was trying to rob the home.

[ChicosBailBonds]

I think at this point it isn't fair to those that have been ousted through these back alley transactions that the other 90 some players that were on the list have not been made public as well.  This list was never intended to become public, and now names have started to slowly trickle out, putting the spotlight on a few guys at a time.  If the MLB were to just release all the names, the press coverage of this one release would be far less than the time they would spend on each individual leak.

Torii Hunter agrees with you

"Whoever got that list is just playing with Major League Baseball right now," Hunter told ESPN.com. "Either put [the list] away, or just put it out. It was anonymous and now the names are leaking and it's a joke."

[MU B2002]

Do you think they would win?  It sort of screams like the burglar suing the homeowner because the dog bit him when he was trying to rob the home.

In some courts nowadays, I am 100% sure that burglar would win.

[mugrad99]

Depends....I know this is a leap, but say the player had a DR prescription, and it technically was not against baseball rules at the time, and now his name comes out.  If he lost endorsement $$$ from this, he should sue. Granted, it would be hard to find a jury, but I am sure his attorney would have fun doing discovery.

[MilTown]

I think the consistency argument doesn't hold water. Take Manny for example, he was great on all those Cleveland teams, the Boston Teams, and now the Dodgers. My initial thought is that he was on the juice from Day 1.


I'm not really familiar with the specifics of the 2003 test. Would that test detect HGH, or just a number of steroids and testosterone?

[wadesworld]

Do you think they would win?  It sort of screams like the burglar suing the homeowner because the dog bit him when he was trying to rob the home.

Weren't these drugs legal at the time the test was taken?  At the time they weren't doing anything wrong, and they took an anonymous test.  If the anonymous test was taken today and released tomorrow, then yes they were doing something illegal and would be trying to sue while they themselves did something wrong, but at the time it wasn't illegal and the tests were anonymous yet now their names are out.  That is why these players don't get suspended when their names are released for 2003 tests.  The only players who get suspended are the ones who are dumb enough to test positive now that rules ban these substances, not the players who took them while they were still legal.

[Lighthouse 84]

I don't believe they tested for HGH then and can't now because no credible test is available.

As far as suing, I'm with Chico on this one.  I'm having a hard time coming up with a theory for them to sue under without being thrown out of court.

[mugrad99]

intentional infliction of emotional distress
breach of contract

[GGGG]

I think at this point it isn't fair to those that have been ousted through these back alley transactions that the other 90 some players that were on the list have not been made public as well.  This list was never intended to become public, and now names have started to slowly trickle out, putting the spotlight on a few guys at a time.  If the MLB were to just release all the names, the press coverage of this one release would be far less than the time they would spend on each individual leak.

Yes.  Clearly someone is playing with MLB.  Although sometimes I wonder if MLB is doing this purposely to wring more concessions out of the union.

[GGGG]

If I were one of these players outed, I would sue. These tests were taken voluntarily based on the fact that the results would not become public. If I lost one dollar of earnings because of this, someone would be sued.

Heh.  Good luck.  Denial is a much better option.  If you sue, it becomes out in the open.

And good luck getting money out of a jury.

[Lighthouse 84]

intentional infliction of emotional distress
breach of contract

i'd take the defense of each of those (with proper retainer) any day.  At least i'd rather have the defense of the claim than be the claimant.  i don't see the elements being met for intentional infliction.  furthermore, they've got a contract with their union.  if the union leaked the information without the authorization from its members, possibly....but i don't think it's the union leaking the info.

[ChicosBailBonds]

I don't believe they tested for HGH then and can't now because no credible test is available.

As far as suing, I'm with Chico on this one.  I'm having a hard time coming up with a theory for them to sue under without being thrown out of court.

Well, I think they can sue on a number of grounds, there is an entire cottage industry of suing.  Whether they have a chance to win, that's really what I was getting at.   

[77ncaachamps]

Vacate the World Champions spot, I say.

[TallTitan34]

I want to respond to several points throughout this thread.

- I believe Vlad is clean.  His numbers are decreasing gradually with age at the right age.  He is not getting stronger like Bonds, Sosa, McGwire, etc did with age.  He is aging the way baseball players used to age.  The same goes for Ken Griffey Jr.

- I agree with wadesworld.  At the time the drugs weren't illegal so they can't be suspended.

- Ozzie Guillen said they should just released all these names at once instead of dragging it through the media.  Just rip the band aid off.  I wish that was possible but I don't think it will ever happen as the tests were suppose to be taken anonymously and were to never be released.

- Everyone is saying how the Bo Sox championship is tainted now.  I'm guessing every World Series in the past X year has been tainted as well with juicers so it's a dumb point.  Especially LaRussa's 2006 Cardinals!

[robmufan]

Bronson Arroyo is now saying he wouldn't be surprised if his name was on the list.

[NYWarrior]

Shocking I tell ya, shocking.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/31/sports/baseball/31doping.html?_r=1

For the record, it would not surprise me if a few guys on my Halos were on it as well...including Vlad, Glaus and Fulmer

It positively sucks.  The entire era is a joke.......Amazingly, sadly really, what we had this last decade was a juice-induced level playing field that will ensure any records and titles from the era are de-facto asterisked by the fans and hopefully the writers.

To wit, http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?columnist=bryant_howard&id=4081214

[NYWarrior]

Vlad has basically done the same thing year in and year out his whole career, but who knows.

I felt the same way about Manny, who's consistency was legendary.  Of course, as one other poster here noted......maybe he was just cheating the entire time.   Nobody is above suspicion anymore, particularly power hitters.

[reinko]

It positively sucks.  The entire era is a joke.......Amazingly, sadly really, what we had this last decade was a juice-induced level playing field that will ensure any records and titles from the era are de-facto asterisked by the fans and hopefully the writers.

To wit, http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?columnist=bryant_howard&id=4081214

The entire era is a joke?  Methinks that is a bit of hyperbole.  I think John Q. Public is being quasi-brainwashed by the media and columnists with all of this faux outrage.  (And baseball writers are bottom feeders IMHO in the media world.  The most egotistical of the lot.  I swear every baseball column references the old days of the game, when players played not for the $, but just because they love the game.)    

Am I looking back from 1988-2005, and all those games I went to and watched, and telling myself, "man, all of those memories, are just gone."  Of course not.  

And for the older fans (I am 29), who watched Mays, Mantle, Aaron, DiMaggio...I would think they would like to hear all this stuff come out because now their era is now being held in even higher esteem.  And don't tell me these types of things (PEDs) didn't go on back in the 50s, 60s, and 70s either.  Peope will always bend/break rules and hide in the gray to gain an advantage.  Hell Mickey Mantle was too drunk once a week during some seasons to play and completly effed his team, but he is hero, but Ortiz drinks a few shakes in the DR every winter, and he is a villian?  OK, totally fair.

This is sports, it's a game.  And the object is to win, at nearly any cost. Do we want players to take PEDs?  Of course not, but to write off the last 20 years of baseball, I just think that is silly.

[77ncaachamps]

- Everyone is saying how the Bo Sox championship is tainted now.  I'm guessing every World Series in the past X year has been tainted as well with juicers so it's a dumb point.  Especially LaRussa's 2006 Cardinals!

TAKE THEIRS TOO!

[RawdogDX]

intentional infliction of emotional distress
breach of contract

Who breached the contract?  What was intentionally done?

[ChicosBailBonds]

I felt the same way about Manny, who's consistency was legendary.  Of course, as one other poster here noted......maybe he was just cheating the entire time.   Nobody is above suspicion anymore, particularly power hitters.

I agree...and some of my buddies that are still at the Angels believe there are at least 2 or 3 guys on the Halos world championship team that were using...I mentioned Fulmer and Glaus (Vlad wasn't on that team, still in Montreal). 

Yeah, it's unfortunate to say the least.

[ChicosBailBonds]

The entire era is a joke?  Methinks that is a bit of hyperbole.  I think John Q. Public is being quasi-brainwashed by the media and columnists with all of this faux outrage.  (And baseball writers are bottom feeders IMHO in the media world.  The most egotistical of the lot.  I swear every baseball column references the old days of the game, when players played not for the $, but just because they love the game.)    

Am I looking back from 1988-2005, and all those games I went to and watched, and telling myself, "man, all of those memories, are just gone."  Of course not.  

And for the older fans (I am 29), who watched Mays, Mantle, Aaron, DiMaggio...I would think they would like to hear all this stuff come out because now their era is now being held in even higher esteem.  And don't tell me these types of things (PEDs) didn't go on back in the 50s, 60s, and 70s either.  Peope will always bend/break rules and hide in the gray to gain an advantage.  Hell Mickey Mantle was too drunk once a week during some seasons to play and completly effed his team, but he is hero, but Ortiz drinks a few shakes in the DR every winter, and he is a villian?  OK, totally fair.

This is sports, it's a game.  And the object is to win, at nearly any cost. Do we want players to take PEDs?  Of course not, but to write off the last 20 years of baseball, I just think that is silly.

Reinko....honestly, what type of "PEDs" existed back then?  I'd like to know.  Those guys often had to work real jobs in the off season.  They had very little workout regiments, drank beer, smoked, etc.  Lifting weights and working out for baseball players was considered taboo.

I'd love to know what type of PED was available back then.

[Mayor McCheese]

I encourage watching the movie "Bigger Stronger Faster".  It is a documentary by a guy who has 2 brothers, all in which juiced (his two brothers were a football player/bodybuilder, the other was a jobber for the WWF, I recognized him from my younger years)... however all three looked up to people like Stallone, Schwarzenegger, Hogan, and others who as kids you didn't think about steroids, and now looking back, you realize they all juiced.  Fantastic movie to show positives and negatives on steroids.

They make some pretty good points on why it should be legal to use steroids, and my favorite point is: Tiger Woods a few years ago received Lasek eye surgery, which enhanced his vision to better than 20/20.  In a sport like golf where your sight is one of the most important things, he surgically enhanced his vision to better than normal, much like in the same way steroids does for your body.

However, I hate David Ortiz, always have, always will... a man who can't play the field is not a baseball player in my book, glad he never won a MVP award, and baseball should suspend him for as long as Ortiz has said players busted for the juice should be suspended.

I wish I could take steroids, become unreal at baseball, win a few world series rings, make millions of dollars in both playing and endorsements, have people love me, play in all-star after all-star game, and then when I am found to be taking steroids, nothing happens... just stupid.

[wadesworld]

However, I hate David Ortiz, always have, always will... a man who can't play the field is not a baseball player in my book, glad he never won a MVP award, and baseball should suspend him for as long as Ortiz has said players busted for the juice should be suspended.

I wish I could take steroids, become unreal at baseball, win a few world series rings, make millions of dollars in both playing and endorsements, have people love me, play in all-star after all-star game, and then when I am found to be taking steroids, nothing happens... just stupid.

What do you want them to do?  He took what was supposed to be an anonymous test for something that was LEGAL at the time and was found to have taken a LEGAL substance at the time.  Can you blame the guy?  A majority of baseball players were doing it, so to stay competitive you almost had to.  This wasn't a test that was taken yesterday.  It would be like all of a sudden making Aspirin illegal and on the same level as marijuana.  What are they going to do, arrest everyone who's ever used Aspirin, even though those people took it while it was still legal?

Why should they treat him differently than everyone else that was on that list?  Because he's a designated hitter?  Makes sense.  I'm thinking you're a little bit jealous...

And personally, I think your argument is...just stupid.  Especially considering the 1st 2 paragraphs you spend explaining why steroids should be legal, and then you go on to say Ortiz should be suspended for steroid use.  Which is it?

[ChicosBailBonds]

I encourage watching the movie "Bigger Stronger Faster".  It is a documentary by a guy who has 2 brothers, all in which juiced (his two brothers were a football player/bodybuilder, the other was a jobber for the WWF, I recognized him from my younger years)... however all three looked up to people like Stallone, Schwarzenegger, Hogan, and others who as kids you didn't think about steroids, and now looking back, you realize they all juiced.  Fantastic movie to show positives and negatives on steroids.

They make some pretty good points on why it should be legal to use steroids, and my favorite point is: Tiger Woods a few years ago received Lasek eye surgery, which enhanced his vision to better than 20/20.  In a sport like golf where your sight is one of the most important things, he surgically enhanced his vision to better than normal, much like in the same way steroids does for your body.

However, I hate David Ortiz, always have, always will... a man who can't play the field is not a baseball player in my book, glad he never won a MVP award, and baseball should suspend him for as long as Ortiz has said players busted for the juice should be suspended.

I wish I could take steroids, become unreal at baseball, win a few world series rings, make millions of dollars in both playing and endorsements, have people love me, play in all-star after all-star game, and then when I am found to be taking steroids, nothing happens... just stupid.

I'll have to check out the movie....I guess I don't understand the analogy of Tiger Woods and the eye surgery so I'd like to see that in context. 

[Mayor McCheese]

What do you want them to do?  He took what was supposed to be an anonymous test for something that was LEGAL at the time and was found to have taken a LEGAL substance at the time.  Can you blame the guy?  A majority of baseball players were doing it, so to stay competitive you almost had to.  This wasn't a test that was taken yesterday.  It would be like all of a sudden making Aspirin illegal and on the same level as marijuana.  What are they going to do, arrest everyone who's ever used Aspirin, even though those people took it while it was still legal?

Why should they treat him differently than everyone else that was on that list?  Because he's a designated hitter?  Makes sense.  I'm thinking you're a little bit jealous...

And personally, I think your argument is...just stupid.  Especially considering the 1st 2 paragraphs you spend explaining why steroids should be legal, and then you go on to say Ortiz should be suspended for steroid use.  Which is it?

You are terrible at reading into someone's post.

My first two paragraphs was about the documentary "Bigger Stronger Faster", and used their opinions, not mine.  

I don't think steroids should be legal, and you didn't HAVE to take it to stay competitive, as not everyone took steroids during this time period.  Just because Ortiz is a terrible athlete, and was mediocre at best in Minnesota, and realized he wasn't going to be famous, he took something that would help him, did it, made millions, won 2 world series, made all-star game after all-star game.  All I was saying is I wish I could do that, I mean, the downside is not as large as the positives in what he did, smart business move.

Also, I was just using what David Ortiz said should be the punishment, which he said AT LEAST a year.  Why would a man who knew he took the supplement be so vocal about being against those taking it when it became illegal?  So he could possibly fool us fans to think "oh, Big Papi, hes clean", when all signs pointed to him being tainted, which he was.

The part I'm pissed about is not so much him taking the steroid, but him lying to the fans, those that pay $$$ to watch him swing a bat 4-6 times a game, make his millions.  Those people don't deserve to be lied to.

Since I know you'll ask, "But Mayor, how did he lie?".  In his manner towards those who have been taking steroids, how they should be banned for at least a year.  Putting an act like he didn't take anything.  Come clean, your on the list now, fess up and be crapty these last few years of your career and go away, you weren't a HOF before we knew, now we know, sorry, nice knowing ya.

Stop listening to those on Baseball Tonight sticking up for these guys.  They have to, Fernando Vina, a known steroid user, is a analyst for them on the show, he can't bash steroid users now that he is out of the game.

[Blackhat]

I applaud the MLB for making a sincere attempt to rid their game of performance enhancers...

Steroids are rampant in college football and the NFL and neither the NCAA or the NFL seems to be making a sincere attempt to stop it...heck I can't remember the last time a college football player got caught.

[Mayor McCheese]

I applaud the MLB for making a sincere attempt to rid their game of performance enhancers...

Steroids are rampant in college football and the NFL and neither the NCAA or the NFL seems to be making a sincere attempt to stop it...heck I can't remember the last time a college football player got caught.

Completely agree.  Shawne Merriman was caught a couple years ago in the NFL.  He got a 4 game suspension, and no one said anything about it, wasn't nearly the deal that MLB is receiving, the only one who spoke up was Jason Taylor, another football player, who asked why Merriman could go to the Pro Bowl, although caught as a cheater.

College Football is a whole another story, as I am sure there are many players taking roids throughout the game.

[GGGG]

Baseball's issue with steroids it seems to me is how it impacts with the historical statistical records.  That is why I wouldn't vote for Bonds, Ramirez, et al for the Hall of Fame, but I wouldn't vacate any titles they won.

Football just doesn't have the same obsession.

[Skatastrophy]

I think John Q. Public is...

Name dropping really weakens your argument.

[MU B2002]

Reinko....honestly, what type of "PEDs" existed back then?  I'd like to know.  Those guys often had to work real jobs in the off season.  They had very little workout regiments, drank beer, smoked, etc.  Lifting weights and working out for baseball players was considered taboo.

I'd love to know what type of PED was available back then.

Greenies, pep pills.

Depends on what you consider to be performance enhancing.  I bowl better when I drink, so is alcohol a PED?  

http://www.palmbeachpost.com/sports/content/sports/epaper/2006/04/02/PBP_AMPHET_0402.html

[ChicosBailBonds]

I guess I would label them in a much different category than a steroid obtained from a horse.  I mean, you can get the same stimulus of a greenie by drinking a crapload of coffee, the greenie just cuts to the chase.

Maybe I'm being hypocritical on the subject, but I do see your point. 

[Blackhat]

Came upon this article, pretty good read.    Testimony from a late draft pick who used in the NFL, published in 2004.  PED's are going to be a
"problem" on some level for the remainder of man's time within competitive sport, imo:

Who’s Using?

Despite what you may believe, not every athlete in the NFL takes performance enhancing drugs. But a lot do. By the interviewees’ estimate, 75% are taking some type of performance enhancing drug on a regular basis (anabolics, stimulants, pain killers, corticosteroids). By no means is the NFL drug free.

As far as anabolics, the most commonly used drugs are Testosterone and recombinant human growth hormone (rHGH). He said that there are more players using rHGH than any other drug. During the writing of the book I spoke with several physicians who treat NFL players and they confirmed this statement. One doctor relayed a story to me of the highest dosage of rHGH he ever saw. It concerned an NFL quarterback who was taking 26 international units (I.U.’s) of rHGH per day. This is an astronomical number!

For your reference, most professional bodybuilders will use between 6 to 12 I.U.’s per day. This guy was taking double what most IFBB professional bodybuilders take. The doctor told me that the quarterback was suffering from severe water retention and gynecomastia and initially came to him for symptoms of carpal tunnel syndrome. The athletes in the NFL are some of the most gifted physical forms placed upon this Earth, but they aren’t necessarily the smartest.

One of the major reasons NFL athletes take drugs is not to be bigger, faster, and stronger, but to maintain their physical health and to quickly repair musculoskeletal injuries when they occur during the season. Drugs are not used anymore to gain the winning edge, but simply to stay in the game. This is a fact of modern life in the NFL which has yet to be discussed openly.

Initially, steroids in the NFL were the domain of lineman. These users were also for the most part, white. But this dynamic has changed. It was in the mid 80’s that black lineman in the NFL begun to increasingly use anabolics. Before this period of time, black players had little interest in performance enhancing drugs. It was believed blacks did not need them; it was the white guys who used/needed them to stay competitive. This is no longer the case as described by the interviewee. Whites and blacks in the league are equal opportunity users.

In the last eight to ten years, steroid use and the use of peptide hormones has become commonplace to those athletes in the high skill positions: running backs, receivers, safeties and cornerbacks. Looking at all positions on the football field we can see that gradually over the past twenty years player’s weights have increased well beyond what improved training and nutrition alone can accomplish.


Don’t Hate the Player, Hate the Game

A change in the monetary rewards of the game and a generational shift in mores appear to be responsible for most NFL players believing steroid use is okay. In the press, we often read quotes from players saying they’re against drug. According to our lineman this is pure posturing. Even NFL guys who are not using drugs aren’t against drug use. Most guys understand the NFL is a business and these players just want their paycheck and really don’t care who is using what.

I believe the answer to the accepted use of steroids in the NFL lies in how sports, especially football, have changed over the last 35 years. With the merging of television and football, money has become the driving force behind the game. This is noted clearly in the biography of Vincent Lombardi, When Pride Still Mattered, by David Maraniss.

In the last part of the book, Maraniss describes the shift in the mentality of both management and players as then commissioner Pete Rozelle brought football from a game played for peanuts to a game played for huge amounts of money. The point is made quite clearly by Mariness that salaries of modern day players would make even St. Vincent of Green Bay ask, "My God, what have we done?"

In Lombardi’s time, there was money in the game, but players made nowhere near the money paid today. Take for example the Packer’s 1963 first round draft choice, Dave Robinson. He signed a modest 2-year contract for $45,000, a $15,000 signing bonus, and the use of a car from one of Lombardi’s pals in the auto business. Compare that with the salary in 2003 of the Chicago Bear’s Brian Urlacher. USA Today reported Brian’s salary to be $15,055,600, not including endorsements.

Before football and television consummated their marriage, most players had jobs outside football to supplement their income. As described by Mariness, these men played for love of the game and not a whole lot else. Make no mistake, America will always have a love affair with football, but to say money hasn’t changed the mindset of the players and the game itself is denying reality. Money changes men, and these modern day gladiators are no different from other mortals.

What draws NFL players to steroids? The answer is the almighty dollar. For many NFL players, football is the means to provide a better life for their families. The rewards of success buys mom a new house, gives dad the sports car he always wanted, puts little sister through college, and helps older brother start his own business. Football is enabling many NFL players to finance their family’s American dream. The whole idea of steroids as dishonest business practice doesn’t even enter the mindset of the average steroid-using NFL player. Here lies the great divide between society’s sport moralists and the players. On the line are: money, social status, security, and glory. For these reasons, telling players that steroid use is cheating falls upon deaf ears. Players just don’t see it that way.