Kolek planning to go pro
Well, sure.But my point is you can't separate LIV from its founders, or the fact that it (and its players) are being used by a tyrannical regime to distract from its tyranny. And that the players are willing participants in said distraction.I think one reasonably can be a critic of the PGA Tour and some of its practices, and recognize that individual players owe it nothing, while also labeling the LIV defectors for who they are.And lest we forget, Brooks Koepka, just a few short months ago:Koepka, speaking Wednesday, less than 24 hours after Mickelson attempted to save himself from his unflattering comments about the PGA Tour, believes somebody will “sell out” and ultimately opt for the Greg Norman-backed, Saudi-financed Super Golf League.“I think it’s going to still keep going,” Koepka said. “I think there will still be talk. Everyone talks about money. They’ve got enough of it. I don’t see it backing down. They can just double up and they’ll figure it out. They’ll get their guys. Somebody will sell out and go to it.”https://golfweek.usatoday.com/2022/02/23/brooks-koepka-pga-tour-sell-out-saudi-arabia-golf/
Two or three months ago The Atlantic had a lengthy article of an interview with Prince of Saudi Arabia. He would not answer questions on Kashoggi but the LIV tour sounds like part of his opening SA. People were criticising it as fluffing him up but it was intriguing in that he finally allowed women to drive, opened up SA to tourism and greatly reduced visa entry requirements, he's reduced the influence of the strict Wahhabism among other things. He said something along the lines of knowing it's not pretty but it takes someone like him and drastic actions to change and modernize SA.
Is anyone actually PLAYING any golf this summer?
Jockster, you sound like a dyed in the wool Republican, hey?
I get it. Unfortunately, there are repressive governments involved in a number of sports businesses. I'm not happy about LIV but enjoy watching the Majors in particular.
This is not meant to be an endorsement of MBS or SA, but Ive long found MBS to be a fascinating duality. He's very progressive, very moderate in his approach to religion and its place in ruling SA (and has a degree in Islamic law to wit), supportive of Israel as a state and harsh on Hezbollah, and clearly has a vision to make Saudi Arabia a more Westernized and less...however he's basically totalitarian in how to actually get there. Don't interfere with his plans, even if you're trying to achieve the same goal, or else. I mean, he imprisoned human rights activists...even though he passed the womens rights they were campaigning for.
Wags, Exactly my thoughts. Why I thought worth sharing. Here's the link.https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2022/04/mohammed-bin-salman-saudi-arabia-palace-interview/622822/
How good it was is irrelevant.Those are my principles. The same money that funded 9/11 is funding these golfers. I want no part of it. You and others are free to believe whatever you want.
Just wanted to revisit this based on the last few posts of discussion. And again, lest I sound like a SA apologist, I'm not, the dichotomy is just very interesting to me.But MBS and this Saudi ruling government is NOTHING like SA 20 years ago under King Fahd. Fahd a very strict conservative Muslim, incredibly anti-reform and anti-West. He didn't want Saudis to have anything to do with the US or Europe.MBS, for his many faults and black marks, has undone tons of what those successive generations had stood for and tried to move SA into modern and more Western ways.SA is still a human rights disaster and he deserves much of the blame for that, but tying him to 9/11 is like trashing the philanthropy of an heir to a family fortune because his distant uncle, who he wasn't close to, used some of the same pool of money for nefarious means. Plenty of clear and glaring reasons to crap on MBS and SA, I just don't think thats one of them.
I think the vitriol against SA in the context of golf and the PGA is mostly fake outrage to justify the real issue, that the LIV is messing with a product we love, the PGA. I think that is real and justified anger. I hope the LIV fails and the all the best golfers are on one tour. I have no problem with LIV competing with the PGA but I think and hope the PGA will be ultimate winner. I can not in good conscience root against the LIV due to the crap regime in SA without also stop buying Nike and Apple products and stop watching PGA and NBA events. (amongst many more products). Hopefully the PGA continues with the recent changes to prioritize the players and squashes the LIV.
Very interesting read, thanksJust wanted to revisit this based on the last few posts of discussion. And again, lest I sound like a SA apologist, I'm not, the dichotomy is just very interesting to me.But MBS and this Saudi ruling government is NOTHING like SA 20 years ago under King Fahd. Fahd a very strict conservative Muslim, incredibly anti-reform and anti-West. He didn't want Saudis to have anything to do with the US or Europe.MBS, for his many faults and black marks, has undone tons of what those successive generations had stood for and tried to move SA into modern and more Western ways.SA is still a human rights disaster and he deserves much of the blame for that, but tying him to 9/11 is like trashing the philanthropy of an heir to a family fortune because his distant uncle, who he wasn't close to, used some of the same pool of money for nefarious means. Plenty of clear and glaring reasons to crap on MBS and SA, I just don't think thats one of them.
Dunno, man, writing that a guy who kidnapped people to extort their riches and then imprisoned them once they paid and who has unilaterally executed people who were never convicted (much less saw a trial) and who has brought untold human rights violations and suffering due to an egomaniacal proxy way and who is recognizing Israel only because of his fear of Iran rather than some "progressive" mindset and is actively blackmailing the USA because the White House occupants he bought and currently owns were voted out of office is trying to modernize even through his black marks seems wildly naive.The guy has effectively shown that making cosmetic changes (which he incrementally pulls back) that are decades overdue in any civil society worth its salt along with big splashy sporting events are just enough to get some people thinking "huh, maybe this murdering psychopath isn't so bad?"
I'm not naive. The LIV tour or buying Newcastle United or putting on concerts with western pop stars does nothing to make me be like "these are swell guys". I just can acknowledge the shades of grey of all of this.
I dunno. Being really bad, but not as bad as his predecessors or as bad as he could be, still makes him ... really bad.It's not as if all the terrible things he does/allows are requisite to the incremental progress being made in other areas. (And let's not go overboard here ... allowing women to drive or go outside by themselves does not make MBS some progressive hero. It just makes him slightly less backwards than those who came before him). Ultimately, his oppression is not an unfortunate but necessary means to a benevolent end. He's still a dictator who routinely deprives people of their human rights and murders and imprisons political opponents.It's an imperfect analogy, but it's akin to arguing that the enforcers of Jim Crow deserve some credit, because at least they were more progressive than the Fire-Eaters.
I think there's some validity to your argument. Although some of Norman's comments were insanely idiotic. Frankly we really have no way of determining which products we get from China are made from Uygur slaves.
Thank you. As for Norman, he's always stuck me as an arrogant pr!ck. I don't care for him at all. He's a good reason to not like LIV. But, I don't know maybe Jay Monahan is an arrogant d-bag too. I respect Monahan's decision on the LIV players even though I'm not sure its the right strategy but he has a hell of a fight on his hands. I might make the same decision if I was in his shoes. I do think he has to tread lightly (or not at all) on the human rights issues so as to not impugn his or the PGA's credibility.
Ive never tried to make him out to be a hero. I'm just pointing out the actual progress that SA made and the difference between him and someone like Fahd years before. SA can be a better place than it was in 2010 but still be nowhere where it should be and have a very problematic ruler. Stalin was a POS but he helped save the world from the Nazis. If SA continues on a progressive path, regardless of what goes on internally, and becomes more like the UAE in 10-20 years, I think that is at least some measure of a positive.And I think a better analogy would be a segregationist who was anti-slavery
JWags loving MBS is the least surprising development in Scoop history.
I choose not to support a Tour funded by a regime that has a rich terrorist history. And it certainly is not all in the pastI have no problem if you do support it (obviously I mean the tour, not their transgressions).