Would SLU bring anything to the BE?

[dgies9156]

I still think if the Big East wanted regional balance, the team to add is Dayton.

Dayton would join in a flash. No TV market, I agree. Xavier likely would object. But Dayton has a basketball heritage and would have quickly reestablished rivalries for several teams, including us.

[Galway Eagle]

Nah the team to add is Detroit. TV market plus we could have Dick Vitale call every marquette Detroit game!

[shoothoops]

Okay. But it wasn't the question posed in this thread.

SLU absolutely could be competitive if they were in the Big East.

SLU also doesn't bring enough value to justify slicing the pie an additional way.

Both of these things are true. But the first one is only relevant if the second one isn't true. And the second one isn't an insult to SLU, its a statement that applies to the vast majority of college basketball programs.

You mentioned Gonzaga for example. It took Mark Few 18 years to make a Final Four. That's a lot of years of often being a double digit NCAA seed pulling off the Sweet 16 upset. What happens when he leaves? How is that Gonzaga spot looking after that?

Someone else also mentioned Creighton. Creighton had made 2 of the previous 6 NCAA's prior to joining the Big East. While not as big of brand as Gonzaga, they have elevated themselves on and off of the court since joining the league. The league would perhaps be even worse on the floor had they not joined. Regular Season League Title, and 6 of 8 top 3 league finishes. They are a much bigger brand in the Big East than prior, and, they are having more success in the league than prior to joining the league. That's how it often works.

I don't think you are seeing the forest for the trees.

Years 18 to 22 of Mark Few aren't walking through the door.

[Galway Eagle]

You mentioned Gonzaga for example. It took Mark Few 18 years to make a Final Four. That's a lot of years of often being a double digit NCAA seed pulling off the Sweet 16 upset. What happens when he leaves? How is that Gonzaga spot looking after that?

Someone else also mentioned Creighton. Creighton had made 2 of the previous 6 NCAA's prior to joining the Big East. While not as big of brand as Gonzaga, they have elevated themselves on and off of the court since joining the league. The league would perhaps be even worse on the floor had they not joined. Regular Season League Title, and 6 of 8 top 3 league finishes. They are a much bigger brand in the Big East than prior, and, they are having more success in the league than prior to joining the league. That's how it often works.

I don't think you are seeing the forest for the trees.

Years 18 to 22 of Mark Few aren't walking through the door.

Just want to point out the 2009 Creighton team was victim to being in a  mid major conference. They were tournament caliber for sure. But the general point holds true.

[Billy Hoyle]

We were in the same conference (Great Midwest and Conference USA) as SLU between 1991 and 2004.

IMO the reason Creighton got the BE bid over SLU was due to Creighton really emerging as a basketball program and due to SLU's leadership issues at the exact wrong time.

But no, SLU does nothing for the BE to warrant splitting the pie another way.  I agree that Gonzaga is the only program presently that would.

It was more than that.

First, SLU reneged on an agreement to join the MVC after CUSA imploded and they weren't invited along to the Big East. They blamed Marquette for that. Then, the then SLU President, Father Biondi not only rejected the MVC invite in person but nuked every bridge in the room by insulting the membership and conference. This particularly pissed off Creighton.

Now, a few years later, it's Creighton or SLU for the final BE spot. Creighton still holds a grudge and Creighton's president has close ties to MU's leaders so MU makes a push to bring Creighton instead.  Besides, nobody wants anything to do with Biondi. Even fellow Priests dislike him. Game over for SLU.

[shoothoops]

Just want to point out the 2009 Creighton team was victim to being in a  mid major conference. They were tournament caliber for sure. But the general point holds true.

And that would illustrate one of the points I made. So many people want to compare Power 5/Big East teams and leagues with teams from other leagues, when it is apples to oranges. It's a lot tougher to generate that revenue, have those resources, even schedule those games, let alone actually talk NCAA's.

Marquette elevated itself on and off the court after joining the Big East. It's as if Deane, KO, Dukiet, Majerus periods never happened. Marquette was not a finished product, and it didn't have the same past National profile when it entered the Big East. it did with older folk playing Glory Days in the wink of young girl's eye.

Thr dismissiveness while not surprising, is short sighted in a lot of ways.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

You mentioned Gonzaga for example. It took Mark Few 18 years to make a Final Four. That's a lot of years of often being a double digit NCAA seed pulling off the Sweet 16 upset. What happens when he leaves? How is that Gonzaga spot looking after that?

Someone else also mentioned Creighton. Creighton had made 2 of the previous 6 NCAA's prior to joining the Big East. While not as big of brand as Gonzaga, they have elevated themselves on and off of the court since joining the league. The league would perhaps be even worse on the floor had they not joined. Regular Season League Title, and 6 of 8 top 3 league finishes. They are a much bigger brand in the Big East than prior, and, they are having more success in the league than prior to joining the league. That's how it often works.

I don't think you are seeing the forest for the trees.

Years 18 to 22 of Mark Few aren't walking through the door.

Gonzaga has developed a national following that brings value. SLU has not. Maybe that will fall off when Few leaves but just as you pointed out that being in the Big East would help SLU, it would also help Few's successor. Guaranteed value now and possible value later is better than less value now and possible value later.

Creighton is already in the Big East. SLU is not. Creighton already has a slice of the pie. Adding SLU takes away from everyone else's pie. If you want to argue that it should have been SLU instead of Creighton back in 2014, you can make that argument....but we don't have a time machine so there's nothing that can be done. We could theoretically add a 12th team, which is what this thread is about.

[SaveOD238]

If Gonzaga were located in Denver, it would be a no brainer.

Denver is already in the Big East (for lacrosse)

If UD were ever to put together a solid basketball program with sustained success, they'd at least be on the radar, because of the existing connection.  But that's 20 or more years down the road.

[MU Fan in Connecticut]

Denver is already in the Big East (for lacrosse)

If UD were ever to put together a solid basketball program with sustained success, they'd at least be on the radar, because of the existing connection.  But that's 20 or more years down the road.

They have national championships in lacrosse & hockey, so they obviously know how to ramp their programs up to be successful.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

It was more than that.

First, SLU reneged on an agreement to join the MVC after CUSA imploded and they weren't invited along to the Big East. They blamed Marquette for that. Then, the then SLU President, Father Biondi not only rejected the MVC invite in person but nuked every bridge in the room by insulting the membership and conference. This particularly pissed off Creighton.

Now, a few years later, it's Creighton or SLU for the final BE spot. Creighton still holds a grudge and Creighton's president has close ties to MU's leaders so MU makes a push to bring Creighton instead.  Besides, nobody wants anything to do with Biondi. Even fellow Priests dislike him. Game over for SLU.

That is hilarious.  I kind of wonder if those midwestern schools could have formed a more basketball centric conference when the BE expanded back then.  (St. Louis, Creighton, Dayton, Xavier, Butler, Drake, Wichita, Loyola, etc.)  Because it seems to me that the A10 just has a lot of junky programs that don't do much for the conference. 

[shoothoops]

Gonzaga has developed a national following that brings value. SLU has not. Maybe that will fall off when Few leaves but just as you pointed out that being in the Big East would help SLU, it would also help Few's successor. Guaranteed value now and possible value later is better than less value now and possible value later.

Creighton is already in the Big East. SLU is not. Creighton already has a slice of the pie. Adding SLU takes away from everyone else's pie. If you want to argue that it should have been SLU instead of Creighton back in 2014, you can make that argument....but we don't have a time machine so there's nothing that can be done. We could theoretically add a 12th team, which is what this thread is about.

I'm aware what the thread is about. We have different approaches here, and that's okay. We don't agree here.

Gonzaga isn't walking through the door. (Insert your own Rick Majerus Cindy Crawford joke here.) And again, as I said, it's up to the Big East if they want an elevated SLU with a bigger following and top 20 market and all that goes with that.

[MU82]

Gonzaga started its ascent under Dan Fitzgerald in 1993, gradually became the best program in the WCC. Dan Monson took over in 1998 and the Zags won the WCC. The following season, the Zags did so well -- WCC title, advanced to Elite 8, lost nailbiter to eventual champion UConn -- that Monson got a big contract to leave for Minnesota.

So it's not like Mark Few invented basketball at Gonzaga. He certainly has perfected it, though, and it no doubt would be a blow to the program if and when he leaves.

But where is he going? He's only 58, he loves it there, he wins big there, he is compensated well (especially for the cost of living in Spokane). It's his own fiefdom. He could be there a dozen years or more.

And just as he took over for Monson, maybe he'll be grooming somebody to take over for him when the time is right.

Basing any kind of conference-affiliation decision on who the current coach is silly.

That said, Gonzaga ain't joining the Big East.

Besides, why does the Big East need to add a 12th team at all?

[Galway Eagle]

I'm aware what the thread is about and what I believe is your short sightedness on the topic, thanks.

Gonzaga isn't walking through the door. (Insert your own Rick Majerus Cindy Crawford joke here.) And again, as I said, it's up to the Big East if they want an elevated SLU with a bigger following and top 20 market and all that goes with that.

St Louis is outside the top 20 Media markets. Not by much, they're 23 for accuracy sake.

[shoothoops]

That is hilarious.  I kind of wonder if those midwestern schools could have formed a more basketball centric conference when the BE expanded back then.  (St. Louis, Creighton, Dayton, Xavier, Butler, Drake, Wichita, Loyola, etc.)  Because it seems to me that the A10 just has a lot of junky programs that don't do much for the conference.

It's also unsurprisingly a bit loose with the facts.

[hawk]

I don't think I want to add any team to the big east.  With 20 conference games there is still enough room for a significant none conference schedule and a balanced conference schedule.  I like playing everybody home and away.  The big east is a 4 or 5 bid conference already, adding teams to the bottom just dilutes the brand.  No conference has as much talent density as the big east,hy mess with a good thing?

[Billy Hoyle]

Denver is already in the Big East (for lacrosse)

If UD were ever to put together a solid basketball program with sustained success, they'd at least be on the radar, because of the existing connection.  But that's 20 or more years down the road.

outside of hockey and LAX, DU doesn't put a lot of money into their programs. They're looking to hire a new hoops coach for less than $200K.

It makes no sense for the BE to add anyone else.

[vogue65]

This would be disgusting for the existing Big East schools that get stuck in that midwest division.

Haven't you noticed?
It is already the reality.
Not only the teams, but the way the gamescare officiated.
The way the coaches recruit is totally different.

St. Johns, Georgetown and even Iona did instant reload recruiting.
No "program", no historied bull, no learning some complicated system.

Pitino went to Africa and voila, they can play.

I don't hear low post, high post, zone, 2-3, 3-2, etc. , they use athleticism and agression.

In short they recruit basketball players and not "student" athletes.


.

[GooooMarquette]

Big East-East and Big East-West.
Big East-original and Big East-from lesser conferences.

Leaders and Legends.

[MarquetteMike1977]

My Father in law played basketball for SLUH for Hank Raymond’s and was offered a college scholarship by Hank Raymonds. My Wife’s Uncle was President of SLU High for many years. The college seems to have been generating many high end donors lately from my distant observations. But I do not know if they would be a good addition.

My Wife’s Uncle said he converted Peter Coors to Catholic at Regis and that Norm George Wendt from Cheers was one of his biggest donors at Rockhurst. He also had many Donors at SLUH but can not remember their names and they seem to be growing rapidly at SLU college recently.

[ChitownSpaceForRent]

Gonzaga and Cincinnati are the only two from a competition standpoint that make sense. And there is absolutely no way in hell Xavier lets Cinci into the conference.

[GoldenWarrior11]

I would guess that SLU is in the Big East by 2030 (along with Dayton and any number of programs that inevitably drop FBS football, i.e. Vanderbilt). 

SLU often gets referred to as a "little brother" around here, and many ask what value would a school like SLU bring to the Big East.  In reality, there are many values, long-term, that the Big East finds value in (just like how they were nearly added in 2013).  Firstly, SLU is a Jesuit institution, which would get strong support from Creighton, Marquette, Xavier and Georgetown alone; it being a Catholic school gets nine schools in support of by default.  Schools always want to be associated with similar peers for academic associations.  Secondly, its athletic program matches up favorably with BE athletic departments; it does not have FBS football (all but UConn, which is an exception), it is basketball-first, it has a 10k arena and has demonstrated that it can have strong fan support against high-quality teams and/or when the team is competitive.  Had Rick Majerus not passed away, SLU would be in the Big East today, no question. 

Additionally, the round robin gets tossed around a lot.  There is a long-winded summary that I prefer not to summarize (as others do it much better than I do), but the round robin, over the long-run, hurts - not helps - teams with tournament bids and seedings.  The cannibalization of a league is great television, but not necessarily for tournament bids/seeds, which is what the priority should be.  The round robin can easily be eliminated for the right candidate (whether or not it can be SLU is debatable).  In addition, the Big East should focus on expanding in order to create more games/sessions for the BET.  More opportunities for attendance, sell-outs and matchups at MSG for the BET is invaluable in itself.  Eliminating the round robin allows for conferences to "remove" a home/home from a projected top team and bottom team, to maximize NET and SOS rankings in conference, which is what other larger leagues already utilize.  Finally, adding peer programs adds content, and adding content means more $$$ from Fox for our next TV deal.  UConn should have already boosted our TV deal (a new deal has not yet been announced, but rumors are that we are seeing a bump). 

Basketball aside, for argument's sake SLU is #12, the Big East for Olympic sports creates unbelievably nice travel partners/pairings for other sports: SLU/Creighton, DePaul/Marquette, Butler/Xavier, Providence/UConn, St. John's/Seton Hall and Villanova/Georgetown.  This helps when programs are on the road and they can get two road games on a trip, instead of potentially just one.  This works better for a sport like soccer or volleyball, not necessarily basketball - which has TV ramifications.  What it can also do is potentially add more games to the Gavitt Games,

Reacquiring UConn added to the top of the league, no doubt.  If/when the Big East adds more (I do no think they will remain at 11 entering the next decade), it will add value to the middle, which will help offset any year that a team goes through a major rebuild (like us in 2014-15, or St. John's a few years ago, DePaul every year, etc.).

FWIW, I have heard Dayton has hurdles towards getting an invite because Xavier would block them.  Not sure how strong a pull Xavier has, but Xavier and UD do compete for many of the same students, not to mention their proximity to one another.  Like SLU, I see Dayton as a basketball-first program that gets 13k for every home game and is capable of making the tournament every year.  The more basketball-first peers the Big East can acquire (assuming they commit to the same financial spending that BE programs do, which I believe is accurate), the better.

[Small Orange Soda]

If the Big East decided they absolutely needed to add a member, then sure, SLU should be on the list.  I don't think that's the case at all though.  After the new Big East formed, UConn and Notre Dame seemed like the only teams that would be worth expanding for.

[GooooMarquette]

More opportunities for attendance, sell-outs and matchups at MSG for the BET is invaluable in itself.  Eliminating the round robin allows for conferences to "remove" a home/home from a projected top team and bottom team, to maximize NET and SOS rankings in conference, which is what other larger leagues already utilize.  Finally, adding peer programs adds content, and adding content means more $$$ from Fox for our next TV deal.  UConn should have already boosted our TV deal (a new deal has not yet been announced, but rumors are that we are seeing a bump). 

I agree with many of your other comments, but I'm not so sure about this one.

While adding a team very likely would increase revenues, it definitely would divide the pot by another full share. So the question really becomes whether the bump would be sufficient to justify cutting each piece a bit smaller. Essentially, you'd need to show that the pie would grow by at least 9% (1/11th), or the existing schools would actually be harmed financially.

IMO, it was so clear that SLU would bring in the sufficient $$$, they'd already be here.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

Unless a new school brings in more resources than it would cost to split the pie another way, the BE isn't going to be interested in expansion.

The BE contract with Fox is up after the 2024-25 season.  My guess is that they will have all sorts of dialogue with Fox, ESPN, etc. about dollars, payouts, etc. and any value to be gained through expansion.

I would be very surprised if they conclude expansion is a good idea at that time.  Frankly I think the BE might be in for a cut.  We will see.

[GoldenWarrior11]

I agree with many of your other comments, but I'm not so sure about this one.

While adding a team very likely would increase revenues, it definitely would divide the pot by another full share. So the question really becomes whether the bump would be sufficient to justify cutting each piece a bit smaller. Essentially, you'd need to show that the pie would grow by at least 9% (1/11th), or the existing schools would actually be harmed financially.

IMO, it was so clear that SLU would bring in the sufficient $$$, they'd already be here.

The current Fox contract calls for any addition up to 12 a full member share, so it doesn't add or take away from the payouts.