ESPN Recruiting Grades

[77ncaachamps]

I'm sure all of us visit ESPN at different times of the day, so some of you might have seen this already.

Breaking Down the 2009 Classes in the Big East
http://sports.espn.go.com/ncaa/recruiting/basketball/mens/news/story?id=4184147

Grade   B+
Marquette Golden Eagles
Marquette commits: seven

The Golden Eagles lost their three-headed backcourt monster in Jerel McNeal, Wesley Mathews and Dominic James and will look to 6-2 PG Junior Cadougan (Toronto, Ontario/Christian Life Center), one of three ESPNU 100 recruits heading to Milwaukee, to step in and stabilize the team from the perimeter. Cadougan must continue to improve his conditioning and alleviate his tendency to over-dribble. However, he can get almost anywhere he wants on the floor using his adequate quickness and his ability to use his power to overtake smaller guards. He also has good vision and finds open teammates when he looks for them. Six-foot-6 PF Jeronne Maymon (Madison, Wis./Madison Memorial) has a rapidly improving perimeter game, but he does damage close to the bucket. He uses his strength to dominate the opposition. SF Erik Williams (Katy, Texas/Cypress Springs) has very good athleticism and upside, which should help him to become a very good wing player in the Big East. Marquette continues to build frontcourt depth with prospects such as 7-2 C Youssoupha Mbao (Simi Valley, Calif./Stoneridge Prep) and 6-10 Brett Roseboro (Quakertown, Pa./Quakertown). Mbao gives the Golden Eagles a shot-blocker who needs to continue to improve his offensive game, strength and focus for the next level. Roseboro provides Marquette with another big body who can clog the lane and play the high post due to his ability to hit free throw-line extended jumpers. The Golden Eagles will also rely on two junior college transfers, Darius Johnson-Odom (Hutchinson Community College) and Dwight Buycks (Indian Hills Community College). The pair of guards has the quickness and athleticism needed to help in the backcourt.

[nyg]

Nice writeup, but just like school work.  What the heck does it take to get an "A"?

[ChicosBailBonds]

Nice writeup, but just like school work.  What the heck does it take to get an "A"?

Villanova Wildcats
Villanova commits: four

Fresh off a Final Four appearance, the Wildcats have used their great season to fuel their recruiting success, with four ESPNU 100 prospects, led by Mouphtaou Yarou (Rockville, Md./Montrose Christian), along with 6-6 SG Dominic Cheek (Jersey City, N.J./St. Anthony) and 6-0 PG Maalik Wayns (Philadelphia/Roman Catholic), both McDonald's All-Americans. Yarou's prep teammate, 6-8 PF Isaiah Armwood, rounds out this impressive group. Yarou gives the Wildcats an imposing presence in the paint with a tremendous amount of upside. As he continues to improve his post moves, Yarou should become dominant over in the paint. Wayns gives the Wildcats another point guard with good vision, and he has a penchant for making winning plays. He should help lessen the burden on Corey Fisher and Scottie Reynolds, should he decide to return to school. Cheek gives Villanova an elite talent at the shooting guard slot with prototypical height for the position. He needs to continue to work hard to improve his ability to create off the dribble. Armwood has a very good amount of upside and athleticism, but he needs to continue to improve his strength level as well as his perimeter skills.


http://sports.espn.go.com/ncaa/recruiting/basketball/mens/news/story?id=4193991  Wisconsin with a C+

[Pakuni]

Villanova Wildcats
Villanova commits: four

Fresh off a Final Four appearance, the Wildcats have used their great season to fuel their recruiting success, with four ESPNU 100 prospects, led by Mouphtaou Yarou (Rockville, Md./Montrose Christian), along with 6-6 SG Dominic Cheek (Jersey City, N.J./St. Anthony) and 6-0 PG Maalik Wayns (Philadelphia/Roman Catholic), both McDonald's All-Americans. Yarou's prep teammate, 6-8 PF Isaiah Armwood, rounds out this impressive group. Yarou gives the Wildcats an imposing presence in the paint with a tremendous amount of upside. As he continues to improve his post moves, Yarou should become dominant over in the paint. Wayns gives the Wildcats another point guard with good vision, and he has a penchant for making winning plays. He should help lessen the burden on Corey Fisher and Scottie Reynolds, should he decide to return to school. Cheek gives Villanova an elite talent at the shooting guard slot with prototypical height for the position. He needs to continue to work hard to improve his ability to create off the dribble. Armwood has a very good amount of upside and athleticism, but he needs to continue to improve his strength level as well as his perimeter skills.


http://sports.espn.go.com/ncaa/recruiting/basketball/mens/news/story?id=4193991  Wisconsin with a C+

Doesn't Jay Wright understand that going to a Final Four hurts recruiting?
Maybe next year will be the year he can't land a decent class because of that Final Four curse.

I know, I know ...

[PJDunn]

The difference is that Jay Wright is a total class act.  The coach that couldn't follow his final 4 with a recruiting class or a decent season is a different story.

[ChicosBailBonds]

The difference is that Jay Wright is a total class act.  The coach that couldn't follow his final 4 with a recruiting class or a decent season is a different story.

If you're referencing the IU coach, I believe they were given an A-.

[TJ]

The difference is that Jay Wright is a total class act.  The coach that couldn't follow his final 4 with a recruiting class or a decent season is a different story.

Not to give merit to the Final Four argument, but....

Wasn't the Nova class set before their run to the Final Four?

[muarmy81]

If you're referencing the IU coach, I believe they were given an A-.

But Chicos...it's easy to recruit when you have playing time to sell...and it's Indiana.

[Blackhat]

Not to give merit to the Final Four argument, but....

Wasn't the Nova class set before their run to the Final Four?

Yeah during their sweet sixteen year.  Moral of the story: lose once you get to the SS otherwise your recruiting will suffer once you get to the elite eight or beyond. 

[Hards Alumni]

It's ESPN!  It's ESPN!

[BrewCity83]

How can they even give grades out?  This talent can't be judged until they play in college for 4 years.

[Marquette84]

Doesn't Jay Wright understand that going to a Final Four hurts recruiting?
Maybe next year will be the year he can't land a decent class because of that Final Four curse.

One more time for those who are slow to grasp the concept:  The final four doesn't hurt recruiting.  The "Coach to . . " rumors do. 

Here's the argument--and seriously I want you tell me how this doesn't apply to Jay Wright and Villanova.  I've even provided you the spaces to point out EXACTLY where you think I'm wrong.

And while I'm calling on Pakuni to address this--since he is the one who opened this can of worms, anyone else is free to jump in as well.  Tell me on which point I'm wrong. 


1.  A once proud but now struggling program below the level college basketball's elites hires a hot young (and unproven) coach in an attempt to regain lost glory.

--My argument:  Jay Wright, who's highest level coaching experience was at low-major Hofstra-- hired in 2001 to coach at Villanova.  Villanova had clearly declined under Steve Lappas--the one-time national champion had not played past the first weekend in the NCAA tournament since 1988:

--Pakuni's rubuttal:   



2.  That hot, young (and unproven) coach has blockbuster recruiting his first year or two. 

--My argument:  Wright lands six top 65 recruits his first two recruiting classes.

--Pakuini's rebuttal: 



3.  Within 3 or 4 seasons, that team improves significantly over the preceding coach's performance (Sweet 16, elite eight, final four--the specifics aren't as important as the fact that his success is obvious, measurable, and noticed by the media). 3a.  Most people think that this success will help recruiting.

--My argument:  In 2005, following five straight NIT appearances, Villanova returns to the Sweet 16.  He take the team to the elite eight in 2006.   These two seasons mark the first time since 1988 Villanova was playing on the 2nd weekend--and 20 years following their national championship. 

--Pakuni's rebuttal:

4.  That hot, young (and now proven) coach finds his name floated as a candidate for higher level programs.  4a. My central theory is that this hurts recruiting as recruits believe the coach will leave.


--84's argument:  Jay Wright's name begins to appear as candidate for high profile openings.

--Pakuni's rebuttal:


5.  The recruiting classes immediately following the success in #3 above are generally not as good as those cited in point #2.  In my opinion, this tends to validate point 4a and tends to dismiss point 3a.

--My argument:  Checking the RSCI, Villanova doesn't land a single top 100 recruit from the 2005 graduating class.  Just two more in 2007.  This is after Wright had six combined top 100 in his first two classes.

Note the contrast: 

• As an unproven coach from Hofstra:  6 top 100 recruits (#5, #39, #42, #45, #56 and #65).
• As a proven BE coach with a S16 and E8 under his belt:  2 top 100 recruits (#37 and #75).

Now, some people will attempt to say that clearly I'm wrong because the 2006 class was still pretty good. Sure--I'll agree.  Pretty good. 

But what I simply cannot fathom is why people can't agree that it was a decline from the first two years.  To me, it is blatantly obvious--#5, #39, #42, #45, #56 and #65 is clearly and demonstrably better than #37 and #75. 

--Pakuni's rebuttal: 

6.  The coach either leaves, or if he sticks around after several years, the hot, young coach is finally able to land a recruiting class that equals or exceeds the quality cited in point #2. 


--My argument:  Wright sticks around.  Three years after his first sweet 16, he finally matches the blockbuster class of his first season's recruiting. 

--Pakuni's rebuttal:


6a.  Some people use this later success to argue that I was wrong and point #4 had no impact on recruiting.

--My argument--Right as rain, Pakuni is attempting to use 2009 to rebut my argument that Vilanova's recruting suffered in 2005 and 2006 immediately following their first Sweet 16 in 18 years.

Pakuni's rebuttal: 

[bilsu]

A lot of players are not 4 yrear players. Some transfer out, some go pro, some get injured or some are JC players. How do you compare Kentucky's Wall to MU's Cadougan. Wall is probably one and done and Cadougan is problably a 4 year player. How do you value imediate impact vs long-term impact?

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

Instead of bellyaching about the pain the Final Four caused Marquette, maybe we can compare the handling of "Coach to...." rumors.

How did Jamie Dixon handle rumors he was going to Arizona?

http://www.nypost.com/seven/05162009/sports/college/dixon_has_big_plans_for_pitt_169573.htm

[Ready2Fly]

My rebuttal:

While Wright only landed two top 100's immediately after success with his first blockbuster classes, he didn't recruit total scrubs to surround them with, and there wasn't a giant drop-off.  Crean landed the triplets and Hayward after a giant drop-off, and surrounded them with marginal talent at best.  What was the class that Crean recruited during the Final Four season (before the Crean to X rumors were flying rampantly)?  James Matthews, Carlton Christian, & Brandon Bell.

[Pakuni]

One more time for those who are slow to grasp the concept:  The final four doesn't hurt recruiting.  The "Coach to . . " rumors do. 

Here's the argument--and seriously I want you tell me how this doesn't apply to Jay Wright and Villanova.  I've even provided you the spaces to point out EXACTLY where you think I'm wrong.

Oh my God, lighten the f--- up, Francis.
What's it like going through life taking yourself this seriously?
I won't play your silly game and argue the merits of your silly argument under your silly predetermined parameters and format.

I do, however, find it precious that you claim Villanova's recruiting "suffered" in 2005 and 2006.
Hmmm ...
Dwayne Anderson (4-star recruit)
Dante Cunningham (Washington Metro area player of the year, offers from Maryland, Pitt, Georgetown)
Scottie Reynolds (McDonald's All-American)
Antonio Pena (4-star recruit)
Malcom Grant (4-star recruit)
Oh, the humanity.

Your theory seems to rest on a bizarre premise that because Wright's subsequent classes were not the equal of his initial classes - the 2002 class was viewed by many as among the best in the nation - the decline was therefore the result of success.
Talk about confusing coincidence with causality.

How about it being the result of the fact Villanova isn't going to have a top 5 class every year?
Or that Wright had less playing time to sell to potential recruits?
You may want to look into this, but rumor has it that elite recruits sometimes want to go to places they can play immediately.

Sorry, but there simply is no factual basis by which you can support your theory.

[79Warrior]

If you're referencing the IU coach, I believe they were given an A-.

I thought he could not recruit??????

[Marquette84]

I won't play your silly game and argue the merits of your silly argument under your silly predetermined parameters and format.

Since you missed the point entirely in your previous point, I thought it would be easier for you to respond if I outlined it point by point for you.  

But you don't like that either!

Fine--you define the parameter and format--but please stay on topic.

I do, however, find it precious that you claim Villanova's recruiting "suffered" in 2005 and 2006.
Hmmm ...
Dwayne Anderson (4-star recruit)
Dante Cunningham (Washington Metro area player of the year, offers from Maryland, Pitt, Georgetown)
Scottie Reynolds (McDonald's All-American)
Antonio Pena (4-star recruit)
Malcom Grant (4-star recruit)
Oh, the humanity.

Precious?  What the hell is that supposed to mean?

Stars nothwithstanding, Anderson, Cunningham, and Grant were not top 100 in the RSCI.  

If I understand your argument, you believe using RSCI as the basis of comparison is "silly" because some other service gave these recruits "4 stars."

Fine.  Can our common ground be that these are "4-star/101+" recruits?

Can we find common ground that a "4-star/101+" recruit is not quite as good as a consensus top 65 recruit?

AFTER landing six top 65 players and taking them to a Sweet 16 and Elite Eight, Wright replaced them with Pena and Reynolds (#37 and #75) and three "4-star/101+" recruits.

It is only in your bizzare world that there wasn't a decline in recruiting.


 

Or that Wright had less playing time to sell to potential recruits?
You may want to look into this, but rumor has it that elite recruits sometimes want to go to places they can play immediately.

That's an excellent point.  Wright had plenty of minutes to offer.  

When the minutes of Fraser, Ray, Foye, Sumpter, Nardi, and Sheridan (all top 65 recruits) come available, I would think that Wright should have been able to replace like with like.

It should have been pretty obvious that the minutes for all six of those players would be opening up pretty soon.  

He did land TWO top 100 (#37 and #75), and THREE more "4 star/101+" recruits.   That's a pretty good haul

but . . . not as good as six top 65 players, is it?  

Sorry, but there simply is no factual basis by which you can support your theory.

Sorry, but there is.

[ChicosBailBonds]

But Chicos...it's easy to recruit when you have playing time to sell...and it's Indiana.

Absolutely, totally, 100% agree.  What Crean will need to do there is get classes year after year.  Of course, the benefit he has is that he's not leaving IU where the perception at MU was that he was going to leave after the Final Four.

No coach is going to be able to straight face argue to a recruit that Crean is going to leave for another gig, where they could use that line continuously against Crean while at MU.

[ChicosBailBonds]

I thought he could not recruit??????

Actually I heard he couldn't recruit nor could he coach, but he was a really good preparer apparently.      

[dsfire]

Fine--you define the parameter and format--but please stay on topic.

You're joking, right?

[MR.HAYWARD]

Marquette84....Here is a little advice...simply be quiet. 

Normally when you stick your foot in your mouth, especially as deeply as you did that is the best thing to do.  To continue to come on the board and defend something that is so widely ridiculed and laughed at only makes you look more laughable. 

yesterday or the day before I was on the Scout website where I rarely go and popped open a number of posts that routinely mocked your hypothesis. 

When you propose something that is mocked internet wide you need to realize that it was a truly dumb proposition and only silence nad loss of memory can hopefully for you allow it to fade away.  continuing to defend the indefensible will only further associate MArquette84 as a tom crean apologist who has lost touch with reality

[MR.HAYWARD]

The more I read of ESPN's recruitng stuff the more I lose any shred of respect for them.  How can they give MU a B+ and also give them the 14th rated class.  If you go thru the conferences there are alot of A's and B+'s.  there has to be some correlation when both grades come from the same people, or not.

[bilsu]

For whatever reason new coaches seem to be able to recruit. Maybe it is their enthusiasm and they can sell what they plan to accomplish. After a few years their novalty to recruits seems to wear off. I think this happen to Crean. It really was time for him to move on. I think you can see this happening to Bo Ryan. It seems that the ratings of the players he is recruiting is falling. His swing offense is no longer a novelty. Maybe new coaches can tell recruits how they will develope them for the NBA. A few years in recruits can see that his recruits are not making the NBA (they probably never had the talent anyways) and they begin to question the wisdom of choosing your program. Also the longer you coach the easier it is for other coaches to negatively recruit against you. Just look at the  poential long-term effect the perception UW throwing Vander Blue under the bus will have. The fiasco about Vander Blue decommitting will hurt more than the fact they actually lost Vander Blue. Look at Crean, I am not sure why but it has been said he was having problems with his recruting connections in Chicago. I believe Mike Deane at the end was not liked  by Wisconsinhigh school coaches. You have to have a big ego to be a division one head coach and eventually this will work against you as you irritate people arround you.

[ChicosBailBonds]

For whatever reason new coaches seem to be able to recruit. Maybe it is their enthusiasm and they can sell what they plan to accomplish. After a few years their novalty to recruits seems to wear off. I think this happen to Crean. It really was time for him to move on. I think you can see this happening to Bo Ryan. It seems that the ratings of the players he is recruiting is falling. His swing offense is no longer a novelty. Maybe new coaches can tell recruits how they will develope them for the NBA. A few years in recruits can see that his recruits are not making the NBA (they probably never had the talent anyways) and they begin to question the wisdom of choosing your program. Also the longer you coach the easier it is for other coaches to negatively recruit against you. Just look at the  poential long-term effect the perception UW throwing Vander Blue under the bus will have. The fiasco about Vander Blue decommitting will hurt more than the fact they actually lost Vander Blue. Look at Crean, I am not sure why but it has been said he was having problems with his recruting connections in Chicago. I believe Mike Deane at the end was not liked  by Wisconsinhigh school coaches. You have to have a big ego to be a division one head coach and eventually this will work against you as you irritate people arround you.

+1000

It's happening here with UCLA to some extent.  You're not longer the pretty girl at the dance.  Stories start coming out, you're not an unknown.  That's why so many of us have said Buzz is doing a great job right now, but let's see in a few years if that holds because more often than not the bloom comes off the rose.