Vander Blue reopening his recruitment according to Rivals

[bma725]

Buzz' backup plans are first team All-American JUCO players (a.k.a. top 100 level talent), not JUCO scrubs; not to mention he's still reeling in top 100 HS commits.  That's my definition of a great RECRUITER.

Disagree.  It's not the back up plans that make the recruiter, it's the front line kids.  Being able to get talented back ups really only says that you were worried about your frontline kids not hitting.  A truly great recruiter doesn't need to worry about that, because they know they've got the highly ranked kids that are going to make it.  Look at UNC for example.  They didn't have to get back ups for Lawson or Hansbrough or Ellington, because Roy knew right away that there was no way those kids would miss, and he was able to reel them in.  

Maybe Buzz knows the same thing with Maymon, Williams and Cadougan, but we won't be able to tell for a couple years.

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

If you mean a UNC bench full of 4-star recruits as not having back-ups.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Regardless, the fact will remain that Buzz signed kids highly sought after by other top programs. By definition, that makes him a great "recruiter".

But what if all of these kids come in and are unhappy about the direction of the team or their minutes?

Let's say a coach promises the world to some kids and gets a great recruiting class. If those kids come in and realize the program is not what the coach promised and leave, is that coach still a great "recruiter" because he got them on campus as a frosh. but then they all leave after 1 or 2 years?

Again, I don't understand the rush to say that Buzz is either "great" at something or "terrible" at something.

Isn't it reasonable to say TBD?

[Ready2Fly]

Disagree.  It's not the back up plans that make the recruiter, it's the front line kids.  Being able to get talented back ups really only says that you were worried about your frontline kids not hitting.  A truly great recruiter doesn't need to worry about that, because they know they've got the highly ranked kids that are going to make it.  Look at UNC for example.  They didn't have to get back ups for Lawson or Hansbrough or Ellington, because Roy knew right away that there was no way those kids would miss, and he was able to reel them in.  

Maybe Buzz knows the same thing with Maymon, Williams and Cadougan, but we won't be able to tell for a couple years.

UNC starts 5-star players and brings 4-stars off the bench.  Under Crean, MU started four 4-stars and brought ZERO off the bench.  Were there even any 3-stars coming off the bench?

When you're at the point that you're bringing 4-star talent off the bench, you're a great recruiter.  Buycks & DJO are 4-star talents, would you agree?  In addition to Bowen, Cadougan, Maymon, Williams, and possibly Blue, Buzz would be bringing at least one 4-star talent off the bench, if not two or three.  

That's my definition of great recruiting.  Brining top 100 talent off the bench.  Buzz already has MU in that position.

[Pakuni]

There's no finally until the highly ranked players actually get on the court and prove the rankings and hype were correct.  Every year, a large portion of the top 100 doesn't pan out, and there's nothing to show that it couldn't happen with MU's players that are coming in.

I suppose it depends on one's definition of great recruiter.

If being a great recruiter means adding highly sought-after talent that is expected to fill your on-court needs and balance your roster, then Buzz seems to be a great recruiter. At least so far.

If the standard of being a great recruiter means adding players who in 2, 3, 4 years will be high-level performers, then it's obviously too soon to tell. Of course,it may be fair to suggest that being a great coach and developer of talent are equally as important, if not more important, skills if this is your measure of a great recruiter.

[MR.HAYWARD]

It's possible that some or all of these players won't pan out. This might be attributed to poor coaching/development, misjudgements regarding talent or attitude or just bad luck. Regardless, the fact will remain that Buzz signed kids highly sought after by other top programs. By definition, that makes him a great "recruiter".

+ 50 billion trillion

It makes him a great recruiter period.  The fact that he can get kid after kid that all the bigs want.  Player evaluation, development etc. are completely different issues.  As others have addressed sometimes top 100 player dont turn out to be great players.  But the frequency of non-top 100 palyers not turning into great players is exponentially greater.  Can anyone please name the last MU 1000 point scorer that was not a top 100 player?   As was said Cream sign 4 top 100's and our margin for error was razor thin 1 went down and the floor fell out.  We need more than that and better bench players Buzz is adressing it and showing Cream for the sham he was.

[bma725]

If you mean a UNC bench full of 4-star recruits as not having back-ups.

You'll notice that none of those guys were back up plans for the players I mentioned, they may be their back ups, but being a back up plan and a back up player are totally different things.

Look at Lawson.  If he didn't work out, they were screwed because they had no scholarships available in 2007 and no other true PG on the roster.  The Bobby Frasor experiment had already been tried and didn't work.  Williams needed to get it right, and when he got Lawson he knew he had done so, to the point where he didn't bring in another PG until the 2008 class.

Same thing with Ellington.  If he didn't work out, that would have given failed shooting guards in back to back classes and four scholarships tied up at one position with no option to get anyone else.  But Roy Williams was so convinced that Ellington would work out that he didn't even really look at other shooting guards in that class and he turned out to be exactly right.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

+ 50 billion trillion

It makes him a great recruiter period.  The fact that he can get kid after kid that all the bigs want.  Player evaluation, development etc. are completely different issues.  As others have addressed sometimes top 100 player dont turn out to be great players.  But the frequency of non-top 100 palyers not turning into great players is exponentially greater.  Can anyone please name the last MU 1000 point scorer that was not a top 100 player?   As was said Cream sign 4 top 100's and our margin for error was razor thin 1 went down and the floor fell out.  We need more than that and better bench players Buzz is adressing it and showing Cream for the sham he was.

Fine.

But what if Buzz has sold this kids on something he can't deliver? What if he promised them all starting spots to get them to MU? What if the kids and families have expectations that aren't realistic on what MU can actually do?

I don't think recruiting is just getting them to sign like you guys think. I think it's about getting them to sign for the right reasons, understanding the expectations of the player and the family and building a team.

It's not all about the dotted line. If it was, nobody would ever complain about transfers.

It's about getting the RIGHT kids to sign for the RIGHT reasons. That makes a great recruiter.

[NavinRJohnson]

But what if Buzz has sold this kids on something he can't deliver? What if he promised them all starting spots to get them to MU? What if the kids and families have expectations that aren't realistic on what MU can actually do?

What if? What if? What if? What evidence or indication is there that he has done any of those things? What a silly argument.

Get some facts, and come and see me.

  -- Jim Calhoun

[bma725]

UNC starts 5-star players and brings 4-stars off the bench.  Under Crean, MU started four 4-stars and brought ZERO off the bench.  Were there even any 3-stars coming off the bench?

Several.  I think you guys are all forgetting how well thought of some of the recruits were simply because they didn't pan out.  Ron Howard made just as many top 100 lists as Lazar Hayward(2).  Karon Bradley and Brandon Bell both made top 100 lists.  MJax, Kinsella, and Lott were all JUCO All Americans.  

Chris Grimm and Joe Chapman were both 4 star players according to Scout.  Amo, Burke, Cubillan, Christopherson and Hazel were all 3 star.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

What if? What if? What if? What evidence or indication is there that he has done any of those things? What a silly argument.

Get some facts, and come and see me.

  -- Jim Calhoun

Listen, I'm not saying Buzz ISN'T a great recruiter (all signs are that he's on his way). I'm also NOT saying that he is selling something he can't deliver.

I'm just saying that it's too early to declare that he's "Great"! or "Terrible!" yet.

"Recruiting" is not just about getting kids to sign. You have to get the right kids to sign for the right reasons, otherwise you will end up with a bunch of unhappy kids and families and the transfer rate will go through the roof.

Make sense?

FACTS:
Buzz has not recruited an all-Big East player (yet)
Buzz has not recruited an All-American at MU (yet)
Buzz has not recruited a NBA player at MU (yet)

Those are the facts.

[BrewCity83]

FACTS:
Buzz has not recruited an all-Big East player (yet)
Buzz has not recruited an All-American at MU (yet)
Buzz has not recruited a NBA player at MU (yet)

Those are the facts.

Maybe he has.  In fact, he probably has.  We just don't know yet how they will develop.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Maybe he has.  In fact, he probably has.  We just don't know yet how they will develop.

And thus, I don't think we can say he's a "great" recruiter (yet).

Need these kids to get on campus, work hard, stay for 3/4 years (not come to campus, realize MU/Buzz is not for them and transfer out)

THEN Buzz's recruiting abilities will become clear(er).

It looks promising, but I just think it's too early to tell.

[SaintPaulWarrior]

Just to provide another link, something a bit different.  Let's just see how it all plays out.


http://www.badgerbeat.com/blog/blog/id/450884

I loved this comment at the bottom.....

and if he does choose that school an hour to the east, we'll know he's a "me" first guy. compare the successes of the uw and mu and no doubt can be left about the better team results. mu may allow him more freedom, but so far it hasn't taken any of those guys further in the tournament (only once in the last 10 years has mu advanced further in march - when wade took them to the final four...and completely blown out by kansas)

[ChicosBailBonds]

Just curious...

IF Blue commits to MU, does that FINALLY make Buzz a great recruiter in some people's eyes?  Because if it doesn't, I don't know what will.

Just curious....

who has said Buzz isn't a great recruiter or known for recruiting?  Just curious....

[MR.HAYWARD]

2002 why do you and everyone else continue to insinuate that Buzz is guarnateeing starting positions.  I have never heard a single recruit of Buzz's say that verbally or in print sans MAymon, and he has gotten 11 of them now.  That has been so blown out of proportion it is unreal.  

In fact recently i saw an interview with him where they pointedly asked them and he backpedalled big time saying the standard..." he told me i needed to compete and i could compete ofr a strting spot but whether I start or not is up to how well i play and how hard i work"  something along those lines  give it up.  

I am sure if buzz feels highly enough about him that he told him that from what he has seen that if he comes in and busts his ass he could/should start then I have no problem with that at all.  I am sure he said the sme thing to Junior just as Crean did to the 3 amigos. if a player is good enough and there is a hole to fill then what is wrong with it.
 
Additionally, that is completely different than guaranteeing a starting spot to Maymon or the rest of the  11 kids.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Several.  I think you guys are all forgetting how well thought of some of the recruits were simply because they didn't pan out.  Ron Howard made just as many top 100 lists as Lazar Hayward(2).  Karon Bradley and Brandon Bell both made top 100 lists.  MJax, Kinsella, and Lott were all JUCO All Americans.  

Chris Grimm and Joe Chapman were both 4 star players according to Scout.  Amo, Burke, Cubillan, Christopherson and Hazel were all 3 star.

Shhhh, stop with those facts.  There were ZERO players coming off the bench.   

[Niv Berkowitz]

Anyone here ever hear of Acie Law IV? Just wondering.

[humanlung]

Hey...what about that Vander Blue guy?  Any room for him on this thread?

[bma725]

Anyone here ever hear of Acie Law IV? Just wondering.

You mean the guy that committed to A&M two years before Buzz Williams was even on the Aggie staff?  What about him?

[mosarsour]

I'm going to wait and see how this all plays out. If he ends up choosing MU, he would be the crown jewel of our 2010 class. Go get 'em Buzz!!

[Hards Alumni]

I'm going to wait and see how this all plays out. If he ends up choosing MU, he would be the crown jewel of our 2010 class. Go get 'em Buzz!!

I guess if you don't count Bowen.

[jaygall31]

let's do whatever it takes to get this guy.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

2002 why do you and everyone else continue to insinuate that Buzz is guarnateeing starting positions.  I have never heard a single recruit of Buzz's say that verbally or in print sans MAymon, and he has gotten 11 of them now.  That has been so blown out of proportion it is unreal.  

In fact recently i saw an interview with him where they pointedly asked them and he backpedalled big time saying the standard..." he told me i needed to compete and i could compete ofr a strting spot but whether I start or not is up to how well i play and how hard i work"  something along those lines  give it up.  

I am sure if buzz feels highly enough about him that he told him that from what he has seen that if he comes in and busts his ass he could/should start then I have no problem with that at all.  I am sure he said the sme thing to Junior just as Crean did to the 3 amigos. if a player is good enough and there is a hole to fill then what is wrong with it.
 
Additionally, that is completely different than guaranteeing a starting spot to Maymon or the rest of the  11 kids.

I think there is some confusion here, so let me restate my general idea.

#1 I know Buzz comes in with a reputation as a good recruiter. I believe he has shown good/promising ability at MU so far.

#2 I don't think Buzz promised a bunch of things to the incoming recruits. The point of my previous post was that it's not just about getting signatures on the dotted line. I think a new coach could go out and sell players and families on a lot of promises in an effort to get them to sign. When these promises aren't fulfilled, the players will be unhappy and probably leave. By your definition, that coach is a great recruiter because he got the players to sign. My definition is that the players have to sign, come to MU and be relatively successful over a period of time.

#3 I do think that Buzz is a good coach, and I'm very optimistic for the future.

#4 I do NOT think we've seen enough to simply label Buzz a "GREAT" recruiter... I think it's ok to say TBD. Can you say "great so far"? Yes. Promising? Yes.

Does this make sense?

[Pakuni]

Fine.

But what if Buzz has sold this kids on something he can't deliver? What if he promised them all starting spots to get them to MU? What if the kids and families have expectations that aren't realistic on what MU can actually do?

What if he enticed them with cocaine, hookers, no-show jobs, new tractors for their dad's farm and a job in a high-rise for mom?
Good recruiter or bad recruiter?