Another shooting on campus

[jesmu84]

I do not disagree with you, but that begs the question why.  There are a lot of people in this country, criminal or mentally ill that do not belong on the streets, but we also have a bunch of folks that believe it is ok for these folks to be out and about, redemption, turn them loose, "they aren't violent", etc, etc.

Why? Social stigma of mental health problems. Lack of diagnosis/access. Lack of community understanding/involvement/support. I know you are an intelligent and learned individual, so I'm sure you knew the reason when you asked the question, so I'm further guessing that you're looking to play the blame game.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Why? Social stigma of mental health problems. Lack of diagnosis/access. Lack of community understanding/involvement/support. I know you are an intelligent and learned individual, so I'm sure you knew the reason when you asked the question, so I'm further guessing that you're looking to play the blame game.

Plenty of blame to go around, I'm certain you would also agree.  I'm also certain you would agree there are people on the streets that shouldn't be, but we also have a push in this country to decriminalize many activities and in so doing, more than a few folks are pushed out of the system that shouldn't be.

We can go chapter and verse through many of the shootings over the years and the treatment those folks were getting and how some were considered to be no harm to society.

Plenty of blame to go around.

[muhoosier260]

Are you muddying the waters between decriminalizing marijuana and the mentally ill mass murdering?

[GGGG]

The proposed "solution" seems to be to restrict access to all guns, even though it is a small (very small) sample that is causing the issues and they ignore the laws anyway, so more laws are going to provide a solution to that group, how?

Actually my solution is that guns should be registered like you register automobiles. 

[ChicosBailBonds]

Are you muddying the waters between decriminalizing marijuana and the mentally ill mass murdering?

Nope.  Like I said, take a look at the backgrounds of the whack jobs that committed many of these shooting crimes.  Most of them were under treatment in the past, few (almost none) were ever institutionalized and most were not considered a threat to society. 

Yet, we want to restrict gun access because of the action of these looney toons or the failure to properly diagnose\treat them.  Seems a bit odd that we're going down the path of restricting access for the 100's of millions that are just fine because we can't get our stool together regarding the mentally ill.

I'd suggest we start with the treatment of the mentally ill, first.  That includes erring on the side of public safety for some of these folks that end up not being nearly as stable as their doctors and protectors claim them to be.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Actually my solution is that guns should be registered like you register automobiles. 

For which law abiding citizens in states already do this as a requirement of state laws in those states.  You might be referring to a national registry.  Debates a plenty for or against. 

Thing is, those nefarious types that want to do some nasty things with guns don't go through with the paperwork.  For some odd reason. 

I know folks that for registering all abortions, too, a national registry and a name given to the child that is carved up and dumped. As you can imagine, debates a plenty for or against that as well.  Heck, in my state I just wish people getting a driver's license, which is an actual gov't document, were actually legally here in the state and\or the United States as a requirement....such pesky details to require such a requirement is no longer the case.  Lots of stuff out there that people wish for.

[Jay Bee]

Is there anyone on this board that you could see this occurring?...

*goes wild, does some insane acts*

You're interviewed... "Oh, ___ from Scoop? Yeah, I'm not really surprised. Dude was a nut job. We probably should have seen it coming. Dang it."

[WellsstreetWanderer]

I'd suggest we start with the treatment of the mentally ill, first.  That includes erring on the side of public safety for some of these folks that end up not being nearly as stable as their doctors and protectors claim them to be.

   If that is the case, Scoop would lose ,more than a few contributors

[ChicosBailBonds]

Is there anyone on this board that you could see this occurring?...

*goes wild, does some insane acts*

You're interviewed... "Oh, ___ from Scoop? Yeah, I'm not really surprised. Dude was a nut job. We probably should have seen it coming. Dang it."

Anyone can snap, I'm more concerned about these guys:

James Egan Holmes, killed 12 people in Aurora, CO shooting.  Prior to the shootings, he was under psychiatric treatment and treated by Dr. Lynne Felton who felt he could be a danger to others.  She stated this a month before the shootings to campus police where he was a student.  Despite this, she chose not to have him hospitalized.

Adam Lanza, Sandy Hook Elementary school killer.  Under psychiatric care since he was a small child.  Mother didn't force him to take his medication or follow-up visits requested by doctors.  She and many small children paid the price for not taking their advice.

Jared Loughner, Tucson massacre.  Three months before the incident campus police, professors, and fellow students said he had something major wrong upstairs.  Campus police told his parents he was not welcome back without a psychological screening.  It didn't happen.


Mental illness is serious stuff.  People need to be helped, but seems too often the doctors and\or the protectors don't always want to do what is necessary. Many states have laws in which involuntary hospitalization is not allowed.  As you can imagine, many suffering from schizophrenia refuse to admit they are sick, so they refuse treatment. 

Sure, its easy to be Monday Morning QB on this stuff, just as it is easy to say if only there were stronger gun laws these things wouldn't have happened. 

[Coleman]

Respectfully, you sound like someone who's never owned, or maybe never shot a gun.

When I lived in Chicago, there was at least a murder a day.  It wasn't the guns, it was the people.

Now, I live in a neighborhood where there is on average 5 guns per household.  No murders in 25 years that I've been here.

Who the hell needs 5 guns in one household? You only have two hands. Sounds like compensation for something.

Your suspicions are correct. I have not fired or owned a gun and I am quite proud of that. It says something about the effectiveness of our society that I have been able to thrive without the need for one.

If my country is in need of my service and I am drafted I will happily bear arms for its defense.

If I am starving with no other resources at my disposal in a post apocalyptic world, I suppose I would take up a gun to hunt.

Outside of that I see no need to own an instrument whose singular purpose is to kill other living beings.

I respect the constitutional right of others to do so in very specific situations (such as hunting) but I have absolutely no desire. Id rather buy a nice watch.

[jesmu84]

Anyone can snap, I'm more concerned about these guys:

James Egan Holmes, killed 12 people in Aurora, CO shooting.  Prior to the shootings, he was under psychiatric treatment and treated by Dr. Lynne Felton who felt he could be a danger to others.  She stated this a month before the shootings to campus police where he was a student.  Despite this, she chose not to have him hospitalized.

Adam Lanza, Sandy Hook Elementary school killer.  Under psychiatric care since he was a small child.  Mother didn't force him to take his medication or follow-up visits requested by doctors.  She and many small children paid the price for not taking their advice.

Jared Loughner, Tucson massacre.  Three months before the incident campus police, professors, and fellow students said he had something major wrong upstairs.  Campus police told his parents he was not welcome back without a psychological screening.  It didn't happen.


Mental illness is serious stuff.  People need to be helped, but seems too often the doctors and\or the protectors don't always want to do what is necessary. Many states have laws in which involuntary hospitalization is not allowed.  As you can imagine, many suffering from schizophrenia refuse to admit they are sick, so they refuse treatment. 

Sure, its easy to be Monday Morning QB on this stuff, just as it is easy to say if only there were stronger gun laws these things wouldn't have happened. 

And who's going to pay for the hospitalizations/treatments? Most people in these situations don't have the financial situations that allow for long term help.

[Benny B]

More access can turn a lot of people into the wrong sort.  I was recently attacked by a rugby player after Murphy's closed.  I slipped on ice and fell down then went into a blind rage threw him in a head lock and beat the crap out of him till MPD came.  If I had a concealed weapon that might've ended up changing my life forever.  I'm just saying concealed weapons on a college campus where there's loads of over drinking and young people with firey tempers is a bad idea.  

Typical millennial.  "Thank God that someone else is making rules, otherwise I wouldn't know how to protect me from myself."

[Coleman]

Typical millennial.  "Thank God that someone else is making rules, otherwise I wouldn't know how to protect me from myself."

Or maybe just someone who is self reflective and has enough awareness of human limitation to know that there are certain situations where imperfect humans are likely to make misjudgments?

Whereas you think you are incapable of error. Typical Boomer.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Who the hell needs 5 guns in one household? You only have two hands. Sounds like compensation for something.

Your suspicions are correct. I have not fired or owned a gun and I am quite proud of that. It says something about the effectiveness of our society that I have been able to thrive without the need for one.

If my country is in need of my service and I am drafted I will happily bear arms for its defense.

If I am starving with no other resources at my disposal in a post apocalyptic world, I suppose I would take up a gun to hunt.

Outside of that I see no need to own an instrument whose singular purpose is to kill other living beings.

I respect the constitutional right of others to do so in very specific situations (such as hunting) but I have absolutely no desire. Id rather buy a nice watch.

If you are a hunter, father, a couple of sons....why wouldn't you have more than one gun?  Plus, different guns do different things. 

Why does someone need more than one tablet, or phone, or computer, or car in a household?  Or television, or more than one watch to use your example?  Why does my wife need so many pairs of black shoes, or handbags?  She asks me why I need so many screw drivers, socket wrenches, etc.  Because they serve different purposes.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Or maybe just someone who is self reflective and has enough awareness of human limitation to know that there are certain situations where imperfect humans are likely to make misjudgments?

Whereas you think you are incapable of error. Typical Boomer.

Always going to be the case....can't legislate morality or human limitations.  Imagine if this had happened here in the U.S.

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2014/03/02/gang-knife-wielding-men-in-deadly-attacks-on-china-train-station/

Or imagine people planting home made bombs at a marathon, or flying planes into buildings. 

   

[Galway Eagle]

Typical millennial.  "Thank God that someone else is making rules, otherwise I wouldn't know how to protect me from myself."

The only thing that separates my generation vs whatever you are is that we actually know what would screw us up. I was trying to be fair by putting the blame on myself but let's flip it and say I got attacked and fought back like I did against this guy who now has a concealed weapon.  He now is all good to shoot me.  There's not a single incident where I'm gonna be ok with that scenario. 

[Galway Eagle]

I actually gave you the entire background.  Seven states allow, Utah is one, but so are Kansas, Idaho, Wisconsin, etc.  Some are more stringent than others in terms of the ability to have it on your person as you walk to class, vs having it in a class room.   Feel free to use some of the other states if you wish. 

I'm glad you have a plan for what you would do, typically those plans go south but sounds like you feel you are prepared.  Now, you made this claim about "gun nuts".  You do realize in order to get a conceal carry permit you must go through training...right?  That's to reduce the potential danger that you have mentioned.  You don't get to just arrive on campus brandishing gun and holster. 

I don't think my view is shaped by paranoia any more than the view is by others that scream gun violence is rampant.  How many guns are there in this country?  Last estimates I saw were 270 million to 310 million, that's almost 1 per person, though obviously some people have 4 or 5 while many have none.  Despite that many guns, how many gun incidents are there?  Then, ask yourself the question where those incidents do happen, how many of them are by LAWFUL people that have lawfully obtained their firearms?  At the end of the day, how many gun incidents are a result of people obeying the laws vs the ones ignoring them? 

The proposed "solution" seems to be to restrict access to all guns, even though it is a small (very small) sample that is causing the issues and they ignore the laws anyway, so more laws are going to provide a solution to that group, how?

I'm on a cell phone right now so I'm not gonna respond to the whole thing but for now my response to the paranoia thing.  Your view is constantly being prepared for the statistically unlikely event you'll be in a mass shooting.  The way you're going about it is by saying we should all have weapons on us nap body can see.  That's paranoia. Whereas those whore using the claim that gun violence is rampant are comparing the figures of our country to similar countries and realizing that it is in fact rampant. 

I'll respond more tomorrow

[ChicosBailBonds]

The only thing that separates my generation vs whatever you are is that we actually know what would screw us up. I was trying to be fair by putting the blame on myself but let's flip it and say I got attacked and fought back like I did against this guy who now has a concealed weapon.  He now is all good to shoot me.  There's not a single incident where I'm gonna be ok with that scenario. 

You don't think older generations have gone through a little bit of life's experience, accumulated a little wisdom and may also know "what would screw us up"?

[ChicosBailBonds]

I'm on a cell phone right now so I'm not gonna respond to the whole thing but for now my response to the paranoia thing.  Your view is constantly being prepared for the statistically unlikely event you'll be in a mass shooting.  The way you're going about it is by saying we should all have weapons on us nap body can see.  That's paranoia. Whereas those whore using the claim that gun violence is rampant are comparing the figures of our country to similar countries and realizing that it is in fact rampant. 

I'll respond more tomorrow

OK, and the flip side is that some people view that "statistically unlikely event" as a way to take guns away from law abiding people, even though it is "statistically unlikely event".   

Works both ways, right?  Let's also not forget when Piers Morgan and his followers compare to other countries, he likes to say things like "events" or absolute number of crimes.  Odd that he never mentions the USA with 330 million people vs the countries he is comparing that are nowhere close to that.  I'd also point out, that in the UK and other places he likes to compare, other crimes are higher than here in the US.  Robbery and aggravated assault, for example.  Why?  Who knows, but some academics believe it is due to the ability of folks to protect themselves here in a manner in which they cannot elsewhere. 

One has to be careful when comparing rates of crimes with the US and other nations because crimes are categorized differently.

[WellsstreetWanderer]

People who go into rages and can't control their temper should not carry a weapon. I am not for everyone going around packing heat but the data overwhelmingly shows that armed, normal  citizens prevent thousands of crimes each year both aimed at themselves and others. Several of the recent mass shooters have shot themselves when confronted by armed response thus reducing the amount of possible casualties.

[ChitownSpaceForRent]

OK, and the flip side is that some people view that "statistically unlikely event" as a way to take guns away from law abiding people, even though it is "statistically unlikely event".   

Works both ways, right?  Let's also not forget when Piers Morgan and his followers compare to other countries, he likes to say things like "events" or absolute number of crimes.  Odd that he never mentions the USA with 330 million people vs the countries he is comparing that are nowhere close to that.  I'd also point out, that in the UK and other places he likes to compare, other crimes are higher than here in the US.  Robbery and aggravated assault, for example.  Why?  Who knows, but some academics believe it is due to the ability of folks to protect themselves here in a manner in which they cannot elsewhere. 

One has to be careful when comparing rates of crimes with the US and other nations because crimes are categorized differently.

Where are these facts from? The UKs gun violence rates are wayyy lower than the US's.

l also agree with BB even good people with good intentions can make mistakes. Im sure youve all had the situation where you get super pissed at someone and either want to beat the crap out of them or do beat the crap out of them. Thats not to say they are a bad person but were human, mistakes happen. I just dont like the idea that even well intention humans who conceal have that ability to let their emotions get the better of them and shoot someone.

I dont think that having concealed carry really protects anybody, so why even allow it if its not doing its job?

[real chili 83]

Who the hell needs 5 guns in one household? You only have two hands. Sounds like compensation for something.

Your suspicions are correct. I have not fired or owned a gun and I am quite proud of that. It says something about the effectiveness of our society that I have been able to thrive without the need for one.

If my country is in need of my service and I am drafted I will happily bear arms for its defense.

If I am starving with no other resources at my disposal in a post apocalyptic world, I suppose I would take up a gun to hunt.

Outside of that I see no need to own an instrument whose singular purpose is to kill other living beings.

I respect the constitutional right of others to do so in very specific situations (such as hunting) but I have absolutely no desire. Id rather buy a nice watch.

I respect your opinion to not own guns.

Your opinion on how many guns one should own is what drive the NRA to be so aggressive on their advocacy.  

I don't belong to the NRA. I think they are too extreme.  Am I glad they are out there as a barrier between your line of thinking and my rights?  Yes.

I own two rfles.  A 30.06 and a .22.  I sure as heck am not going to go plinking at pop cans with a 30.06. According to you, that's too many guns.  I also have a 12 and 20 gauge shotguns.  Too many guns?  My son uses the 20 gauge for trap shooting.  

Bleau, I am not critical of your opinion.  It's your choice.  I worry about others with your line of thinking who are mis informed, and want to overly regulate me.

[melissasmooth]

I respect your opinion to not own guns.

Your opinion on how many guns one should own is what drive the NRA to be so aggressive on their advocacy.  

I don't belong to the NRA. I think they are too extreme.  Am I glad they are out there as a barrier between your line of thinking and my rights?  Yes.

I own two rfles.  A 30.06 and a .22.  I sure as heck am not going to go plinking at pop cans with a 30.06. According to you, that's too many guns.  I also have a 12 and 20 gauge shotguns.  Too many guns?  My son uses the 20 gauge for trap shooting.  

Bleau, I am not critical of your opinion.  It's your choice.  I worry about others with your line of thinking who are mis informed, and want to overly regulate me.

I agree. My dad gave me my first rifle when I was 13. Now I have a Remington 700 and a 12 gauge. Took me awhile to get use to the recoil on the 12 gauge but a lot of that depends on the shell size.

[Coleman]

I own two rfles.  A 30.06 and a .22.  I sure as heck am not going to go plinking at pop cans with a 30.06. According to you, that's too many guns.  I also have a 12 and 20 gauge shotguns.  Too many guns?  My son uses the 20 gauge for trap shooting.

I didn't make a statement on what was too much. Of course there was an implicit judgment, but I didn't say what number should be the right number. I simply asked a question. I'll ask it again...who needs 5 guns? If the reason is that you do five different types of hunting, that each require a different kind of ammunition and gun, I guess that makes sense. That would be the rare exception. I think that is the minority of gun owners who have lots and lots of guns though.


Chicos, I get what you are saying. I own 5 watches and have 2 wrists. The difference is, if I lose a watch or it is stolen, it cannot be used by the thief to kill someone (at least not without a good deal of creativity). If my as-yet-unconceived child gets a hold of it, they cannot harm themselves with it. I'm not talking about legislating or regulating how many guns you should own. Again, I recognize the constitutional right to do so. I would just like to hear a logical reason for owning that many. I don't get it. For the same reason I don't understanding owning a semiautomatic weapon with a high capacity clip.

[ChicosBailBonds]

And who's going to pay for the hospitalizations/treatments? Most people in these situations don't have the financial situations that allow for long term help.

Obamacare, of course.