State of the Program Now, now

[dinger]

But what did Buzz Williams have left from the Crean era in years two, three and four of his "rebuild"? In year two, Lazar, Cubilllan and Acker. In year three, nobody. In year four, nobody. That "rebuild" went to the NCAAs with Lazar, David and Mo and to consecutive Sweet 16s with zero leftovers - and to the Elite 8 (and a Big East regular season championship) the following year.

Yup, Buzz did a great job at MU. He's not here anymore...

We're not coming out of the Dark Ages of Marquette hoops like we had to under KO. That comparison is moronic.

We need to accept that the situation in 2014 was far worse than it appears. When and how the head coach left were very bad for the program. There was no remaining staff around for program continuity. Buzz leaving for a lowly VT program painted a bad picture about our brand in general. The athletic department and university leadership were more or less in disarray. I can't think of many coaches who could represent the university well, put the pieces of the team back together, and win at a high level right away. None of those coaches would be excited to take a job at MU with how things were in 2014.

[GGGG]

Yup, Buzz did a great job at MU. He's not here anymore...

We need to accept that the situation in 2014 was far worse than it appears. When and how the head coach left were very bad for the program. There was no remaining staff around for program continuity. Buzz leaving for a lowly VT program painted a bad picture about our brand in general. The athletic department and university leadership were more or less in disarray. I can't think of many coaches who could represent the university well, put the pieces of the team back together, and win at a high level right away. None of those coaches would be excited to take a job at MU with how things were in 2014.

Not to mention the cupboard was bare basketball wise.  The most experienced players weren't very talented or were complete f*ck ups (Mayo), and the most talented (as determined by HS ratings) weren't very experienced.

Wojo didn't have anything close to the Amigos his first year.  He doesn't have anyone resembling Lazar this year.  He has a very inexperienced team, and he is an inexperienced coach.  There is a reason that our players have been over matched at times, and there are reasons why Wojo has looked overmatched himself.  That doesn't mean he is a bad coach.

There is a reason you don't see D1 assistants take high major jobs as their first gigs.  Cuonzo Martin started at Southwest Missouri.  Ben Howland started at Northern Arizona.  Wojo is starting here. 

I agree that in retrospect this was a harder job than I think it looked when he got here.  Much more difficult situation than when Buzz got here.

[Warrior of Law]

I certainly don't pretend to know what was going on, but when a newly invoked university president, athletics director, and then the head men's coach depart within short period of time, that's going to cause a major disruption to the program.  Buzz's teams had a nice run, but the state of program was torched on the way out.

[MU82]

Not to mention the cupboard was bare basketball wise.  The most experienced players weren't very talented or were complete f*ck ups (Mayo), and the most talented (as determined by HS ratings) weren't very experienced.

Wojo didn't have anything close to the Amigos his first year.  He doesn't have anyone resembling Lazar this year.  He has a very inexperienced team, and he is an inexperienced coach.  There is a reason that our players have been over matched at times, and there are reasons why Wojo has looked overmatched himself.  That doesn't mean he is a bad coach.

There is a reason you don't see D1 assistants take high major jobs as their first gigs.  Cuonzo Martin started at Southwest Missouri.  Ben Howland started at Northern Arizona.  Wojo is starting here. 

I agree that in retrospect this was a harder job than I think it looked when he got here.  Much more difficult situation than when Buzz got here.

Very good analysis. Also in the previous comment by dinger. And by Chicos earlier.

As for whether this season has been a "waste" ... not for me. With a few exceptions, I've enjoyed watching the team. Mrs. MU82 and I loved our Brooklyn trip. We had a blast getting together with other Warriors for Wisconsin and Providence watching events.

The team has gotten better, but yes, it has been a two-steps-forward-one-step-back deal. It's been frustrating at times. But it's sports, it's entertainment, it isn't life. And I refuse to get my undies in a bundle because of basketball results.

Go Warriors!

[ChicosBailBonds]

Not to mention the cupboard was bare basketball wise.  The most experienced players weren't very talented or were complete f*ck ups (Mayo), and the most talented (as determined by HS ratings) weren't very experienced.

Wojo didn't have anything close to the Amigos his first year.  He doesn't have anyone resembling Lazar this year.  He has a very inexperienced team, and he is an inexperienced coach.  There is a reason that our players have been over matched at times, and there are reasons why Wojo has looked overmatched himself.  That doesn't mean he is a bad coach.

There is a reason you don't see D1 assistants take high major jobs as their first gigs.  Cuonzo Martin started at Southwest Missouri.  Ben Howland started at Northern Arizona.  Wojo is starting here. 

I agree that in retrospect this was a harder job than I think it looked when he got here.  Much more difficult situation than when Buzz got here.

Well said

[ChicosBailBonds]

Yup, Buzz did a great job at MU. He's not here anymore...

We need to accept that the situation in 2014 was far worse than it appears. When and how the head coach left were very bad for the program. There was no remaining staff around for program continuity. Buzz leaving for a lowly VT program painted a bad picture about our brand in general. The athletic department and university leadership were more or less in disarray. I can't think of many coaches who could represent the university well, put the pieces of the team back together, and win at a high level right away. None of those coaches would be excited to take a job at MU with how things were in 2014.

Thanks for quoting Lenny.  "Dark ages of MU basketball"....LOL.  Yes, and that ultra tough jump to compete in the MCC to get out of it.    You hit the nail on the head when Buzzard left MU for a PAY CUT.

Let me state that again....left MU for a PAY CUT to go to one of the worst programs in the ACC.  That does wonders for a program.  His last year, when picked to win the Big East, couldn't even go to the NIT because of how piss poor he did.  Couldn't land the right kind of high school recruits...Mayo....oh if you only knew.  Buzz did great with other people's talent....inherited or ready made JUCO talent.  He is GREAT at that.  Finding kids that need work and to be molded, not so much.

We are where we are...making progress, in a very tough league (5X what KO's league was), getting good kids.  We shall see how it goes.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Very good analysis. Also in the previous comment by dinger. And by Chicos earlier.

As for whether this season has been a "waste" ... not for me. With a few exceptions, I've enjoyed watching the team. Mrs. MU82 and I loved our Brooklyn trip. We had a blast getting together with other Warriors for Wisconsin and Providence watching events.

The team has gotten better, but yes, it has been a two-steps-forward-one-step-back deal. It's been frustrating at times. But it's sports, it's entertainment, it isn't life. And I refuse to get my undies in a bundle because of basketball results.

Go Warriors!

Also well said

[ChicosBailBonds]

I agree with most of this post. Although, Duane never played an actual game for Buzz.

JJJ was an overrated recruit, no doubt. It's taken him a while to really find his footing but he appears to be getting there.  Next season should be interesting for him. I could see him being the leading scorer or as the 8th man.

Cohen is a 6'6" spot-up shooter (who is currently looking for his shot). There is a place for him as a contributor at this level, but this team is not the best fit for him right now.

Luke is a legit big man from Wisconsin. MU hadn't had a legit center in years and fans typically overestimate their in-state recruits, especially bigs (see Heldt, Matt). The fact that he left Crean was going to make it all the more sweet when he became an All-American at MU.

Just out of curiousity, who was your first choice for head coach?

Correct, he didn't but we also know he didn't have to redshirt that first year either, but that decision was made in mid to late December. 

I agree on Luke, he is a legit big man, that's why IU went after him.  But in my view that is what he is.  A good, solid big man.  Not a savior, not some of the silliness that was talked about last year here.  He will continue to get better.  Seems like a rock solid individual, I'm THRILLED he is on MU's team.  Believe me.  I just think from a hoops standpoint, he is the type of kid that will have a very solid college basketball career and then he's off to Europe. Hope I'm wrong.

My choice?  I was certainly excited about DONE DEAL...I think everyone was.  I'm just not wild about all the on the job training hires we do, but I've just accepted it as that's the direction we will continue to take.  It has worked out very well for us most times, but it comes with the hair being pulled out.   I would have loved a Lon Kruger from UNLV. , but OU had already got him.  I've loved Gregg Marshall since I first met him years ago at Winthrop...spent some time with him at MU during the First Bank Classic and watched his career.  He's not going anywhere.  When Bill Self was in the First Bank Classic at Tulsa, you knew that guy had stardom written all over him.  In some ways, I see Wojo in that space, but jury is still out.  He'll have to learn on the job, it's what MU does.

[ChicosBailBonds]

For us it is a waste.  All the other schools you listed are always in the running for Burger Boys.  This is our first one since Kerry Trotter.   So when we get the chance to have a burger boy we need to capitalize or else it feels wasted.   

The truth is that the actualy reality is somewhere between your "Wojo is great and runs a clean program just give him time"and my "Win at all cost bring back buzz cause they played tough"       The fact that Madison never seems to rebuild even in a "rebuild" year is really upsetting. As far as programs go we have fallen so far below Madison that it makes me ill.  When buzz was here I would argue we were their equal if not just a touch better.   I would say the same thing under Crean.

Think about all those years we didn't get one, and did just fine.  Madison went 54 years without doing anything.  They are far from a lock to go to this year's tournament, but who knows.   They are the state school, a budget that is massively larger than our athletic department, they are on every Saturday in the fall, the state rallies behind them because you live in a provincial state where that kind of stuff goes on.  Is what it is.  You're going to worry yourself sick by it. 

Butler will never be IU in terms of passion in the state.  Xavier will never be Ohio State in terms of passion.  MU will never be Wisconsin in terms of passion.  Georgetown will never be Maryland in terms of passion by the masses in Maryland.  That's ok, I have no problem being a MU, a G'Town, Xavier, Butler, etc. 

[KenoshaWarrior]

Very good analysis. Also in the previous comment by dinger. And by Chicos earlier.

As for whether this season has been a "waste" ... not for me. With a few exceptions, I've enjoyed watching the team. Mrs. MU82 and I loved our Brooklyn trip. We had a blast getting together with other Warriors for Wisconsin and Providence watching events.

The team has gotten better, but yes, it has been a two-steps-forward-one-step-back deal. It's been frustrating at times. But it's sports, it's entertainment, it isn't life. And I refuse to get my undies in a bundle because of basketball results.

Go Warriors!

We might be getting better but our rivals are getting better faster than we are

[Huge guy]

To my thinking WOJO has talented kids with zero basketball IQ. Once he figures out these kids need to understand how to play together and let the game come to them we will do very well.

[MU82]

We might be getting better but our rivals are getting better faster than we are

Life is so difficult being a Warriors fan. Pretty much time to bug out and start rooting for UW-Green Bay.

[Lennys Tap]

Thanks for quoting Lenny.  "Dark ages of MU basketball"....LOL.  Yes, and that ultra tough jump to compete in the MCC to get out of it.    You hit the nail on the head when Buzzard left MU for a PAY CUT.

 Buzz did great with other people's talent....inherited or ready made JUCO talent.  He is GREAT at that.  Finding kids that need work and to be molded, not so much.

Nice try. In Buzz's 5th year zero non qualifiers/Jucos, one graduate transfer and one guy who spent his freshman year on the bench at Oregon. Went to the Elite 8. Conversely, the only time in nine years TC did anything in the tournament more than 40% of our points and rebounds came from a Mississippi St transfer (by way of MPS) and a prop 48 - two guys, in your words, who didn't belong in Marquette's parking lot academically.

[hdog1017]

Until Marquette finds a good coach, they will be stuck in mediocrity. 

[naginiF]

Until Marquette finds a good coach, they will be stuck in mediocrity. 

Great point.  It's the ongoing comparisons, that some seem to translate to personal self worth, that confound me.

Self bump! 

Say hello to your horribly low sense of self worth for me. 

If you want to understand how to utilize a Marquette education please let me know (PM me if you need)

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

I've been laughing for days as some (mostly Chico, no surprise) make up stuff about Marquette basketball past and present. We're in a "long rebuild" because in year two all Wojo has left from the Buzz era is Luke Fischer, Duane Wilson and JJJ. And all he'll have left in year three will be (again) Fischer, Wilson and JJJ. And all he'll have left in year four is Wilson. Not great, I'll concede. But what did Buzz Williams have left from the Crean era in years two, three and four of his "rebuild"? In year two, Lazar, Cubilllan and Acker. In year three, nobody. In year four, nobody. That "rebuild" went to the NCAAs with Lazar, David and Mo and to consecutive Sweet 16s with zero leftovers - and to the Elite 8 (and a Big East regular season championship) the following year.

I would take Acker, Cubillion, and Hayward over JJJ, Duane, and Luke any day of the week. Heck, I might take Hayward by himself over JJJ, Duane, and Luke. Buzz still had the advantage over Wojo in year two. In year three and beyond, I agree with you. My expectation for Wojo was back in the NCAAs by year 3. If he doesn't deliver, than the seat starts to become warm. If he doesn't get us back by year 4, then I'm ready to move on.

[GGGG]

I would take Acker, Cubillion, and Hayward over JJJ, Duane, and Luke any day of the week. Heck, I might take Hayward by himself over JJJ, Duane, and Luke. Buzz still had the advantage over Wojo in year two. In year three and beyond, I agree with you. My expectation for Wojo was back in the NCAAs by year 3. If he doesn't deliver, than the seat starts to become warm. If he doesn't get us back by year 4, then I'm ready to move on.

Agreed on all counts.  I don't think people remember what a damn good basketball player Lazar was.  Maybe it's because he flamed out in the NBA, or maybe its because he has been overshadowed by Butler and Jae, but he's the second leading scorer in the history of Marquette basketball.  And he could guard the post better than any of our current bigs can.  Not to mention I think he was able to impart the "ways of the Big East" to a guy like Jimmy Butler.

There is no one on this current roster right now anywhere close to as good as Lazar.  (Henry would be if he sticks around.)

[keefe]

There is no one on this current roster right now anywhere close to...Lazar. 

[Herman Cain]

Lazar picked up by the D League  LA Defenders. Teammates with Vander.

http://dleague.nba.com/player/lazar-hayward/

Marquette West

[brewcity77]

I would take Acker, Cubillion, and Hayward over JJJ, Duane, and Luke any day of the week. Heck, I might take Hayward by himself over JJJ, Duane, and Luke. Buzz still had the advantage over Wojo in year two. In year three and beyond, I agree with you. My expectation for Wojo was back in the NCAAs by year 3. If he doesn't deliver, than the seat starts to become warm. If he doesn't get us back by year 4, then I'm ready to move on.

Agreed on all counts.

[WarriorPride68]

Lazar picked up by the D League  LA Defenders. Teammates with Vander.

http://dleague.nba.com/player/lazar-hayward/

Marquette West

Are D-Leaguers still making $30,000 a year? Got to be tough to support family on that living in LA

[Herman Cain]

Are D-Leaguers still making $30,000 a year? Got to be tough to support family on that living in LA

I dont think they even make that. They have three tiers of salary plus a housing allowance.
http://dleaguedigest.com/2015/07/29/assessing-the-nba-d-league-salary-structure/

It is why guys like Buycks opt to play overseas.

[MerrittsMustache]

Are D-Leaguers still making $30,000 a year? Got to be tough to support family on that living in LA

Lazar made over $3M off his NBA contracts. Hopefully he invested wisely.

[WarriorPride68]

I dont think they even make that. They have three tiers of salary plus a housing allowance.
http://dleaguedigest.com/2015/07/29/assessing-the-nba-d-league-salary-structure/

Wow, thanks for sharing. Very interesting.

And then the housing ends once the season ends in guessing? I wonder what the housing is like in the first place also

[Herman Cain]

Wow, thanks for sharing. Very interesting.

And then the housing ends once the season ends in guessing? I wonder what the housing is like in the first place also

I think with these guys the housing doesn't matter , they are playing basketball year round chasing their dream. I seem to remember a story about Vander accumulating 300 pair of shoes during his  travels.