MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: Herman Cain on April 16, 2019, 12:23:15 PM
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With the news of the Hausers leaving the team what is your position with respect to the retention of Coach Wojo?
Should Wojo be fired or should he be retained ?
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I look at what is happening at SJU right now and think the MU fanbase is deluding themselves to think the search would be any different for Marquette. Particularly at this point of the process. He gets one more year.
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He's a lame duck in 2019-2020 and you send him on the first bus out of Milwaukee in March/April 2020.
He can't recover from this and shouldn't be given the chance beyond this season. Guy is a fraud of a head coach.
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Damn. I had a bet on how long it would take Herman to resurrect his fire wojo poll. I didn't anticipate a new poll.
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Looks like results will mirror the first poll.
Vocal minority.
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He's a lame duck in 2019-2020 and you send him on the first bus out of Milwaukee in March/April 2020.
He can't recover from this and shouldn't be given the chance beyond this season. Guy is a fraud of a head coach.
He can't? Maybe. But that sounds more like a prediction than a fact. You may not like it, but the reality is that you have to give him the opportunity to recover. If he doesn't, he will be gone. If he does, you might have yourself a coach.
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The window for firing Wojo was open but has since closed. Assuming this development was known a while back a case could be made Wojo should’ve been fired before it got to this point.
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The window for firing Wojo was open but has since closed. Assuming this development was known a while back a case could be made Wojo should’ve been fired before it got to this point.
Friction between Sam and Markus? Known. Markus coming back would lead to Hausers transfers? Less known.
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He can't? Maybe. But that sounds more like a prediction than a fact. You may not like it, but the reality is that you have to give him the opportunity to recover. If he doesn't, he will be gone. If he does, you might have yourself a coach.
A coach who can't hold on to 2 of his best players, and could potentially lose more core players yet, on the brink of a potentially all-time Marquette season.
This is a cultural issue and there's no point in putting bandaids on a stab wound.
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MU is in a weird purgatory not often seen in college hoops. PRN mentioned it in another thread, but this is going to be a really awkward season. Winning would certainly cure all that. Wojo's problem is he doesn't have any real equity (no postseason wins, no conference titles, no tournament titles). If MU hits a stretch where they lose 5 out of 6 in conference (or something similar), it's gonna get ugly.
If for some reason MU misses the tournament next year, and Wojo is still the coach a year from now, it'll be an incredibly tone deaf look by the MU administration. I don't know how else to put it.
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Who are these people voting yes? Like seriously - are people happy with the on-court product for the past 5 years? It baffles me.
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Looks like results will mirror the first poll.
Vocal minority.
Some loud, persistent "Yeas" though.
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A coach who can't hold on to 2 of his best players on the brink of a potentially all-time Marquette season.
This is a cultural issue and there's no point in putting bandaids on a stab wound.
The cultural issue is that Wojo didnt bend the knee to the Hauser family. I say that is something a real coach does.
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The cultural issue is that Wojo didnt bend the knee to the Hauser family. I say that is something a real coach does.
Nope. Try again.
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Friction between Sam and Markus? Known. Markus coming back would lead to Hausers transfers? Less known.
Friction (aka total and utter dysfunction) to the level it could cause two core members of our team to actually consider transferring? That had to be known to some degree.
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Who are these people voting yes? Like seriously - are people happy with the on-court product for the past 5 years? It baffles me.
We still have a good team. Obviously not as good as with the Hausers but one that should make the tournament next year. And if Wojo lands some of the 2020 recruits we are in on we should have a tournament worthy team the following years.
Why throw that all away now?
Wojo is going to make mistakes. I trust he will learn from them. 2017-18 our defense was garbage. He adapted and our defense improved leaps and bounds last season. Did he mishandle Markus at the end of the year last season? Probably. But I trust he will learn from that.
If we falter the next few years, sure Wojo will have to go. Now in a NCAA tournament window is not that time.
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A coach who can't hold on to 2 of his best players, and could potentially lose more core players yet, on the brink of a potentially all-time Marquette season.
This is a cultural issue and there's no point in putting bandaids on a stab wound.
I don't really give a rat's tit what players are on the roster as long as they don't have major off court issues and they win. Do you?
Expectation is still to win next season, earn a high seed, and have stable recruiting foundation for the future. No Hausers will make that a lot of tougher. Let's see if Wojo can do it. If can't, he will be gone. If he can he might be better than we think at the moment. Either way, you have to give the guy the opportunity. Firing him is not a realistic option at this point.
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Leaving the MSU Duke game, I was listening to Duke fans discuss whether it was time for K to retire. Apparently the game has passed him by and he didn't abandon his offense and just feed Zion.
Wojo isn't K. Fans lash out when they are frustrated.
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Leaving the MSU Duke game, I was listening to Duke fans discuss whether it was time for K to retire. Apparently the game has passed him by and he didn't abandon his offense and just feed Zion.
Wojo isn't K. Fans lash out when they are frustrated.
Some think the point of firing a coach is punishing him for failing to meet expectations. The real point of firing a coach is because it is what is best for the future of the program.
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All for retaining him for this season. He performs, extend him. He doesn't perform, fire him. No more limbo. This year should tell all.
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I don't really give a rat's tit what players are on the roster as long as they don't have major off court issues and they win. Do you?
A) Did the Hausers have major off-court issues? Or were they instead exemplary student athletes.
B) Does losing Sam and Joey make us more or less likely to win as many games as possible next season? These are the things you say you care about.
You're willing to back a coach who willingly chooses to make his job much harder but not being able to keep 2 of his best players? And yes, I say "willingly chooses" due to his inability to reign in Markus despite THE ENTIRE TEAM pleading with him on multiple occasions to change things: not just Sam and Joey. If this a Hauser problem, why are we still not out of the woods on other core players potentially leaving yet?
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A) Did the Hausers have major off-court issues? Or were they instead exemplary student athletes.
B) Does losing Sam and Joey make us more or less likely to win as many games as possible next season? These are the things you say you care about.
You're willing to back a coach who willingly chooses to make his job much harder but not being able to keep 2 of his best players? And yes, I say "willingly chooses" due to his inability to reign in Markus despite THE ENTIRE TEAM pleading with him on multiple occasions to change things: not just Sam and Joey. If this a Hauser problem, why are we still not out of the woods on other core players potentially leaving yet?
If the rumors are true, what should Wojo have done to make his life easier?
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IMO Wojo isn't even on the hot seat. A completely clusteryouknowwhat next season and it may warm up. But he still won't be fired.
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Damn. I had a bet on how long it would take Herman to resurrect his fire wojo poll. I didn't anticipate a new poll.
At this rate, we might see 20+ new polls before next season starts.
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At times like these, I miss Ners.
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If the rumors are true, what should Wojo have done to make his life easier?
I'm not in the business of college coaching so I'm not familiar with what exactly it takes to appease egos and conflicting ideologies on the court, but when you're paid millions of dollars/year at a high major program, I expect YOU to be familiar. If that takes sitting Markus at the end of games when he goes against this to prove you mean it, great. If that means having a one-on-one sitdown with Markus to establish that things must change and we are/will be better for it, great.
There's a reason a number of guys have left, want to leave, or are still considering leaving, and it's that they don't trust this coach and this coaching staff. Wojo needs to earn back that trust, but when things are so contentious among your best players and leaders that it becomes a "him or us" line in the sand, that's 100% on Wojo. There's no arguing it. Figure out how to keep in place the team you worked so hard assembling.
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Looks like results will mirror the first poll.
Vocal minority.
The first poll was what, like 85-15 in favor? This is like 65-35 in favor. Not sure it's a mirror when the size of the vocal minority has doubled.
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The first poll was what, like 85-15 in favor? This is like 65-35 in favor. Not sure it's a mirror when the size of the vocal minority has doubled.
It was 8-2 when I posted.
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It was 8-2 when I posted.
Vocal minority growing quickly.
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The first poll was what, like 85-15 in favor? This is like 65-35 in favor. Not sure it's a mirror when the size of the vocal minority has doubled.
I flipped my vote to "Fire Wojo", but I don't think Wojo should be fired right now. I guess my threshold for what he needs to accomplish in 2020 is just higher now. Top 25 ranking most of the year, at least one NCAA win, AND at least two big time 2020 recruits. Otherwise, he gowne.
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I flipped my vote to "Fire Wojo", but I don't think Wojo should be fired right now. I guess my threshold for what he needs to accomplish in 2020 is just higher now. Top 25 ranking most of the year, at least one NCAA win, AND at least two big time 2020 recruits. Otherwise, he gowne.
I also flipped. Honestly, I wouldn't be against him going now. I never imagined I would've said that even a week ago. I think anything short of meeting pre-Hauser expectations for 2019-20 (top-15, competing for league title, advancing significantly in NCAA) warrants the end.
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Again, I watch UCLA go through how many before they get to Cronin. Who is the coach at SJU? Who did VTech end up with? The only coaching change that went as planned was Buzz to TAMU. If Wojo was cut loose now, it would be the modern equivalent of getting Dukiet. Unless Stan stepped up. And even then, once again, MU is hiring an unproven assistant.
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Again, I watch UCLA go through how many before they get to Cronin. Who is the coach at SJU? Who did VTech end up with? The only coaching change that went as planned was Buzz to TAMU. If Wojo was cut loose now, it would be the modern equivalent of getting Dukiet. Unless Stan stepped up. And even then, once again, MU is hiring an unproven assistant.
He's getting one more year regardless so it doesn't matter what we theorize, although axing Wojo and giving Stan the interim title wouldn't be the worst thing IMO.
But at the heart of all of these problems is Steve Wojciechowski, and it's very clear he's not the guy. Rip the band-aid off and find the right guy in 2020.
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Stan is not the answer. Many in here have fallen in love with him and I simply do not get it. Another guy never mentioned for any real job openings. If Stan was the answer, he would not be at MU today.
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Stan is not the answer. Many in here have fallen in love with him and I simply do not get it. Another guy never mentioned for any real job openings. If Stan was the answer, he would not be at MU today.
Backup QB syndrome. Same rational that leads people to believe MU won't miss Joey because of Bailey.
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RJax
It is deeper than that. College ball is big business and potential stud coaches do not sit on second seat on a bench for a long period of time. If MU’s resurgence under Wojo has real legs, Stan would have been hot commodity this year.
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He's getting one more year regardless so it doesn't matter what we theorize, although axing Wojo and giving Stan the interim title wouldn't be the worst thing IMO.
But at the heart of all of these problems is Steve Wojciechowski, and it's very clear he's not the guy. Rip the band-aid off and find the right guy in 2020.
This.
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All for retaining him for this season. He performs, extend him. He doesn't perform, fire him. No more limbo. This year should tell all.
This.
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This.
This. ;D
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I think some people around these parts are just wildly unrealistic. Marquette is a nice program and will continue to be a nice program. We are not a blue blood, or frankly anywhere near a blue blood. And that is OK.
Wojo is a good recruiter, and probably a pretty good coach. These things take time to build. The Hauser situation is an absolute gut punch, but it is what it is now. Two days ago everyone through we had a consensus top 10 team. Things are pointed in the right direction, and switching course now is insane, and also never going to happen.
Just enjoy the guy we have. The grass is not always greener.
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Stan is not the answer. Many in here have fallen in love with him and I simply do not get it. Another guy never mentioned for any real job openings. If Stan was the answer, he would not be at MU today.
I'm not saying he's the answer. I'm saying I personally am done with Wojo so when asked what EYE would do, I would get rid of Wojo and give Stan the interim title for this season. I realize it won't happen and many won't agree, but that's MY opinion. You see how it goes and then regroup and again, find the right guy in 2020. I think the guys respect Stan more than Wojo and have heard a few things suggesting such.
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J5
I asked TAMU if we were a top ten when all the early polls came out and he stated top 15. Those polls are very misleading because a lot of turnover in upcoming weeks. Vegas had us at 18 in regards to odds. That probably was realistic at the time, and could have gone lower.
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I think some people around these parts are just wildly unrealistic. Marquette is a nice program and will continue to be a nice program. We are not a blue blood, or frankly anywhere near a blue blood. And that is OK.
Wojo is a good recruiter, and probably a pretty good coach. These things take time to build. The Hauser situation is an absolute gut punch, but it is what it is now. Two days ago everyone through we had a consensus top 10 team. Things are pointed in the right direction, and switching course now is insane, and also never going to happen.
Just enjoy the guy we have. The grass is not always greener.
I think the grass can at least be a little greener than losing two of the cornerstones of your program a few weeks after your team dropped 6 out of 7 to end the season and got blown out in the NCAA Tournament.
How exactly are things pointed in the right direction? If this is the “right” direction, I’d hate to see the wrong one!
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Wojo is a good recruiter, and probably a pretty good coach. These things take time to build. The Hauser situation is an absolute gut punch, but it is what it is now. Two days ago everyone through we had a consensus top 10 team. Things are pointed in the right direction, and switching course now is insane, and also never going to happen.
Just enjoy the guy we have. The grass is not always greener.
No, they're not.
Yes, in this case it is.
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I would get rid of Wojo and give Stan the interim title for this season.
Yeah recruits love interim coaches. Great idea.
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Yeah recruits love interim coaches. Great idea.
Seeing as the guy is responsible for a good amount of our HS recruiting as well as recruiting our current players to see things through, I think there are worse ideas.
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Seeing as the guy is responsible for a good amount of our HS recruiting as well as recruiting our current players to see things through, I think there are worse ideas.
Come play for me the year after I get replaced.
OK!
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I look at what is happening at SJU right now and think the MU fanbase is deluding themselves to think the search would be any different for Marquette. Particularly at this point of the process. He gets one more year.
Excuses.
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He can't? Maybe. But that sounds more like a prediction than a fact. You may not like it, but the reality is that you have to give him the opportunity to recover. If he doesn't, he will be gone. If he does, you might have yourself a coach.
More excuses.
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Onepost
Yeah, Brian Wardle.
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We still have a good team. Obviously not as good as with the Hausers but one that should make the tournament next year. And if Wojo lands some of the 2020 recruits we are in on we should have a tournament worthy team the following years.
Why throw that all away now?
Wojo is going to make mistakes. I trust he will learn from them. 2017-18 our defense was garbage. He adapted and our defense improved leaps and bounds last season. Did he mishandle Markus at the end of the year last season? Probably. But I trust he will learn from that.
If we falter the next few years, sure Wojo will have to go. Now in a NCAA tournament window is not that time.
Excuses
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I think some people around these parts are just wildly unrealistic. Marquette is a nice program and will continue to be a nice program. We are not a blue blood, or frankly anywhere near a blue blood. And that is OK.
Wojo is a good recruiter, and probably a pretty good coach. These things take time to build. The Hauser situation is an absolute gut punch, but it is what it is now. Two days ago everyone through we had a consensus top 10 team. Things are pointed in the right direction, and switching course now is insane, and also never going to happen.
Just enjoy the guy we have. The grass is not always greener.
"probably a pretty good coach"? We all need to smoke what this guy is imbibing.
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"probably a pretty good coach"? We all need to smoke what this guy is imbibing.
Willie-
Should Wojo be fired tomorrow, who do you think Marquette should hire? Who are the top 3 choices
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I think some people around these parts are just wildly unrealistic. Marquette is a nice program and will continue to be a nice program. We are not a blue blood, or frankly anywhere near a blue blood. And that is OK.
Wojo is a good recruiter, and probably a pretty good coach. These things take time to build. The Hauser situation is an absolute gut punch, but it is what it is now. Two days ago everyone through we had a consensus top 10 team. Things are pointed in the right direction, and switching course now is insane, and also never going to happen.
Just enjoy the guy we have. The grass is not always greener.
This is the most Pro-Wojo post on this board. That is all you need to know about the state of affairs. Pretty sad.
Thank God the vast majority of fans, boosters and the MU brass think more highly of MU than this guy. Wojo is another day closer to the end of his contract for a reason. Not a good time to replace the coach but obviously not time to extend his contract. No faith in Wojo from MU administration. Wojo is most definitely on the clock.
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Goose
I won’t lie. My only attraction to Stan is the Buzz affect. Not the greatest basis but it worked really well once before!
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Nope. Try again.
He’s not entirely wrong...
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I voted to start the inevitable rebuild now. No reason to wait 12 months.
Hey, Scott Merritt is available.
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Everyone needs to stop with the "WhO sPeCiFiCaLlY iS tHe RePlAcEmEnT?!?"
None of us are in the Athletic Department, none of us are being paid xx millions to know the answer to that question, none of us have the connections the AD has to know what coaches are out there or may have an interest in moving around. But what is clear is that Wojo is not the right coach.
Let's walk through the following:
Wojo = not the right coach
Any replacement = MAYBE the right coach
Wojo = 0% chance to build a long-term successful, top flight program here
Any replacement = non-zero% chance to build a long-term successful, top flight program
Everyone waiting "til next year", "til next year", "2020!", "2022!", "2028!!" is simply KIDDING themselves at this point. Wake up! Next year will be painful. 2020? 2021? Why are we expecting any of these years to be any different than what we've already SEEN manifest itself for 5 straight years!
Carlino=Rowsey=Howard=whoever the next guy is!
Are we really happy with that?? Willing to live that groundhog day assuredly AGAIN at some point in the future???
It's extremely simple, really.
F I R E W O J O
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Timing is not right for a firing. The administration will not fire a coach because two players leave.
However, next year, after we see the results of another year, even Marquette's administration may slowly begin to see, This dog don't hunt. Will they take action? Unlikely. It will take multiple years of sub-par performance and complete frustration by the fans to end the Wojo dynasty.
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Excuses
Where was there a single excuse?
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Everyone needs to stop with the "WhO sPeCiFiCaLlY iS tHe RePlAcEmEnT?!?"
None of us are in the Athletic Department, none of us are being paid xx millions to know the answer to that question, none of us have the connections the AD has to know what coaches are out there or may have an interest in moving around. But what is clear is that Wojo is not the right coach.
Let's walk through the following:
Wojo = not the right coach
Any replacement = MAYBE the right coach
Wojo = 0% chance to build a long-term successful, top flight program here
Any replacement = non-zero% chance to build a long-term successful, top flight program
Everyone waiting "til next year", "til next year", "2020!", "2022!", "2028!!" is simply KIDDING themselves at this point. Wake up! Next year will be painful. 2020? 2021? Why are we expecting any of these years to be any different than what we've already SEEN manifest itself for 5 straight years!
Carlino=Rowsey=Howard=whoever the next guy is!
Are we really happy with that?? Willing to live that groundhog day assuredly AGAIN at some point in the future???
It's extremely simple, really.
F I R E W O J O
I’m not saying not to fire Wojo. I voted for it in this poll. But I disagree with not discussing potential replacements. That’s precisely what these boards are for. It’s no different than discussing roster construction.
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Timing is not right for a firing. The administration will not fire a coach because two players leave.
However, next year, after we see the results of another year, even Marquette's administration may slowly begin to see, This dog don't hunt. Will they take action? Unlikely. It will take multiple years of sub-par performance and complete frustration by the fans to end the Wojo dynasty.
Mostly agree with this except Wojo does not have many years left. If next year is disappointing, the buy-out is two years? Not huge. Also, without job security Wojo could jump to a mid-major for some long term job security. Recruiting kids to come when there is no contract in place that you'll be there is hard, but not impossible. MU is making Wojo's already difficult job more difficult, but I agree with MU.
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I look at what is happening at SJU right now and think the MU fanbase is deluding themselves to think the search would be any different for Marquette. Particularly at this point of the process. He gets one more year.
Agree the BOT and Scholl need to be hitting the back channels hard over the next year to find a viable option. Give wojo this year to prove himself, and when he doesn't cut the cord.
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I hate this subject title. Just 2 atomic bombs have been used in warfare since 1945. The results were so horrific, we haven't seen such weapons deployed since.
It's beyond ridiculous to compare two college students leaving Marquette to an event such as Hiroshima. Come on, get a grip. We've managed to deal with the unexpected departures of players such as Jeronne Maymon, Deonte Burton, Vander Blue and Haanif Cheatham. We've had coaches pull up stakes and leave in the middle of the night. MU will get past this.
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He’s not entirely wrong...
When the entire team pleaded with Wojo to make changes and none were made, it's not a Hauser-specific issue.
When multiple guys are continuing to mull departures and it's up to other coaches to convince them to stay, it's not a Hauser-specific issue.
So sure, because they were the ones with the balls to actually follow through with this frustration and make a statement, I'll concede he's not "entirely" wrong.
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I’m not saying not to fire Wojo. I voted for it in this poll. But I disagree with not discussing potential replacements. That’s precisely what these boards are for. It’s no different than discussing roster construction.
Agreed actually. I don't mind hypothesizing which replacements may be out there - no harm in that whatsoever. What I'm arguing against (apologize if it's not clear) is Wojo supporters making this the crux of the entire situation.
"If you don't have a 100% sure-fire, slam-bang, can't miss guy, ready to take us to a Final Four in Year 1 who is waiting at the front door of The Al wearing a Marquette Polo; well we might as well just stick with Wojo"
Such a misguided, terrible, unimaginative train of thought. With that train of thought we'd have never hired Buzz. We may have never hired Al McGuire!
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Agreed actually. I don't mind hypothesizing which replacements may be out there - no harm in that whatsoever. What I'm arguing against (apologize if it's not clear) is Wojo supporters making this the crux of the entire situation.
"If you don't have a 100% sure-fire, slam-bang, can't miss guy, ready to take us to a Final Four in Year 1 who is waiting at the front door of The Al wearing a Marquette Polo; well we might as well just stick with Wojo"
Such a misguided, terrible, unimaginative train of thought. With that train of thought we'd have never hired Buzz. We may have never hired Al McGuire!
I agree with that. Fortune favors the bold. I’m more curious to what the thinking is from people about exactly who they think Marquette can get versus who they want. If recent Big East coaching searches are a clue, I think they’ll be a lot of disappointed folks
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Agreed actually. I don't mind hypothesizing which replacements may be out there - no harm in that whatsoever. What I'm arguing against (apologize if it's not clear) is Wojo supporters making this the crux of the entire situation.
"If you don't have a 100% sure-fire, slam-bang, can't miss guy, ready to take us to a Final Four in Year 1 who is waiting at the front door of The Al wearing a Marquette Polo; well we might as well just stick with Wojo"
Such a misguided, terrible, unimaginative train of thought. With that train of thought we'd have never hired Buzz. We may have never hired Al McGuire!
My understanding from Wojo supporters is if MU fires him that MU will have to abandon D1 hoops because no one would coach MU's crappy program. I guess MU tricked a great coach like Wojo to come to MU, so we can never let him go.
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When the entire team pleaded with Wojo to make changes and none were made, it's not a Hauser-specific issue.
When multiple guys are continuing to mull departures and it's up to other coaches to convince them to stay, it's not a Hauser-specific issue.
So sure, because they were the ones with the balls to actually follow through with this frustration and make a statement, I'll concede he's not "entirely" wrong.
You state all of this as if its known fact. Who were the multiple guys, when did these multiple times occur, who else is mulling, who are your sources. Just posting something a million times doesn't make it true. I thought you were "one post Johnson"
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I'm trying to picture what it looks like for an entire team to plead to a coach to change how he coaches. Is it right in the middle of practice, like a protest where all the players speak up in unison right in front of Markus? Or was it in individual meetings with Wojo, each one having the player stand up to the coach, telling Wojo he doesn't know what he's doing?
It sounds like the discussions were forceful and emotional. Must have been crazy to witness for whoever was there to see it and later tell people about it.
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I love how pant-craptingly defensive much of the fire Wojo camp gets when you calmly ask what they think should happen in the immediate wake of theoretically dismissing a coach in the middle of April. Its as if it makes you a better, more passionate fan for refusing to think rationally and methodically.
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You state all of this as if its known fact. Who were the multiple guys, when did these multiple times occur, who else is mulling, who are your sources. Just posting something a million times doesn't make it true. I thought you were "one post Johnson"
Onepost is spot on...as far as the who etc, and sources etc...you should know better...you don't name sources, that's how you lose info.
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Al McGuire: I am not running a democracy.
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For me, Wojo has to either deliver on a successful season on the court or get a stacked 2020 recruiting class, or else I think we have to pull the plug.
Everything was building up to this year and then we’d be rolling beyond that. This year took a hit and if we hang out on the bubble and have an early exit, Wojo doesn’t have a lot to show for his tenure.
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Willie-
Should Wojo be fired tomorrow, who do you think Marquette should hire? Who are the top 3 choices
I am certainly not aware of all who might be interested, but I am sure they are out there. How about Barnes, he is looking. How about making a run at the guy from Wichita State. How about Wardle. How about Dawkins, since we seem to love the Duke pedigree. Hell what about Hoiberg. If he would go to Nebraska, MU could get him with the resouces. YThey would all be upgrades to Wojo, and they all can coach.
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Al McGuire: I am not running a democracy.
Gato - IIRC you posted that you spoke at length with the Hausers at the banquet and all seemed hunky dory. They must be excellent actors.
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I love how pant-craptingly defensive much of the fire Wojo camp gets when you calmly ask what they think should happen in the immediate wake of theoretically dismissing a coach in the middle of April. Its as if it makes you a better, more passionate fan for refusing to think rationally and methodically.
The immediate wake?
Get rid of Wojo now and hire one of the assistants as an interim for next year. Call next season and the 2020 recruiting class a wash, and after next season, hire a guy with a proven track record of building a program at the high major level.
I understand this won’t happen, and that we’ll go into next year with Wojo as our coach. But he’s a dead man walking. His credibility with recruits, the fan base, and college basketball as a whole took a massive hit yesterday. We all know that, barring some miracle season, he’s done after next year. Well, maybe not all of us know that, but anyone willing to look at this situation objectively does.
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Seeing as the guy is responsible for a good amount of our HS recruiting as well as recruiting our current players to see things through, I think there are worse ideas.
Like stepping on your onepost.
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Gato - IIRC you posted that you spoke at length with the Hausers at the banquet and all seemed hunky dory. They must be excellent actors.
Banquet occurred before another significant announcement.
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I love how pant-craptingly defensive much of the fire Wojo camp gets when you calmly ask what they think should happen in the immediate wake of theoretically dismissing a coach in the middle of April. Its as if it makes you a better, more passionate fan for refusing to think rationally and methodically.
What that you're failing to grasp is that, albeit counterintuitively, nothing else matters right now beyond "Fire Wojo". As I illustrated in my earlier post - Wojo is the wrong coach for the lofty expectations most have for this program. This has been shown time and time again. Whatever happens after "Fire Wojo", at least there's a CHANCE of that coach being the right coach.
Nonetheless, I've been down the road of suggesting replacements, future plans, etc, etc on this board and it just turns into an argument of hypotheticals until we are all blue in the face. Who's to say your idea of the future performance of "Coach A" or your idea of whether "Coach A" wants to come to Marquette is the right idea or vice versa? No one can say for certain and, a sobering reality for many on this board, no one can sensibly try to predict that type of thing. It's perfectly unpredictable.
So keep going Mr Rational and Methodical. Keep going into our fourth iteration of CarlinoRowseyHoward. And keep watching "PLAY ANGRY" every night before you fall asleep. And keep pressing on to set Marquette records for first round tournament losses. Hey - every few years you might even squeak out an NIT Final Four.
The appropriate question to be asking is "Is Wojo the right guy?". The answer is binary.
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I am certainly not aware of all who might be interested, but I am sure they are out there. How about Barnes, he is looking. How about making a run at the guy from Wichita State. How about Wardle. How about Dawkins, since we seem to love the Duke pedigree. Hell what about Hoiberg. If he would go to Nebraska, MU could get him with the resouces. YThey would all be upgrades to Wojo, and they all can coach.
Barnes and Marshall both earn well over $3.5 million per year at their respective gigs. Hoiberg just signed a 7-year, $25 million deal at Nebraska. While Buzz was making that a salary within that ballpark while at Marquette (which I would argue was due more to his negotiating skills than the administration's commitment to high-level men's basketball), do you realize that Marquette pays Wojo much less than those coaches (he's around $2 million)? You want to go after a coach like Johnny Dawkins (a fellow Duke coaching tree hire), after you fire another one in Wojo? With regards to Wardle - yes, he is an alum - but he came under national fire for attacking the Peoria sports news reporters for not "supporting the program"; make no mistake - that is undoubtedly being used against him and his staff in recruiting as we speak.
So, let's say we fire Wojo tomorrow - he is signed through 2022, so we would owe three years worth of buyout (I would guess around $6 million). Then, we will hire another coach (likely in the same range) for another five years. For the next three years, we will be paying over $4 million to two different coaches. For a program in a conference that is making just over that in television revenue annually, that is a poison pill of horrific consequences for the long-term stability of the program. Even if you decide to promote Stan for the year (which would similarly be a bad decision), having an official lame duck coach for the next year would similarly kill recruiting and the entire outlook of the season.
The best bet, as tough as it sounds, is to stay the course, support the team (and the staff) and see what they can do next season. The buyout next year will be a year lower, and - if things turn south - the athletic department will have ample time to properly comb through and assess candidates during the season.
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Yup, you don’t just fire someone without a plan or an idea someone may step in. If you do make a rash decision, you end up like St Johns.
The athletic department will no doubt keep their ears open over the summer and through the season but it’s way too late in the game to do a new coaching search now.
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What that you're failing to grasp is that, albeit counterintuitively, nothing else matters right now beyond "Fire Wojo". ...
The appropriate question to be asking is "Is Wojo the right guy?". The answer is binary.
I (mostly) appreciate your response, so thanks. We’re just never going to agree that your suggested approach is the right one.
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I hate this subject title. Just 2 atomic bombs have been used in warfare since 1945. The results were so horrific, we haven't seen such weapons deployed since.
It's beyond ridiculous to compare two college students leaving Marquette to an event such as Hiroshima. Come on, get a grip. We've managed to deal with the unexpected departures of players such as Jeronne Maymon, Deonte Burton, Vander Blue and Haanif Cheatham. We've had coaches pull up stakes and leave in the middle of the night. MU will get past this.
Snowflake.
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Barnes and Marshall both earn well over $3.5 million per year at their respective gigs. Hoiberg just signed a 7-year, $25 million deal at Nebraska. While Buzz was making that a salary within that ballpark while at Marquette (which I would argue was due more to his negotiating skills than the administration's commitment to high-level men's basketball), do you realize that Marquette pays Wojo much less than those coaches (he's around $2 million)? You want to go after a coach like Johnny Dawkins (a fellow Duke coaching tree hire), after you fire another one in Wojo? With regards to Wardle - yes, he is an alum - but he came under national fire for attacking the Peoria sports news reporters for not "supporting the program"; make no mistake - that is undoubtedly being used against him and his staff in recruiting as we speak.
So, let's say we fire Wojo tomorrow - he is signed through 2022, so we would owe three years worth of buyout (I would guess around $6 million). Then, we will hire another coach (likely in the same range) for another five years. For the next three years, we will be paying over $4 million to two different coaches. For a program in a conference that is making just over that in television revenue annually, that is a poison pill of horrific consequences for the long-term stability of the program. Even if you decide to promote Stan for the year (which would similarly be a bad decision), having an official lame duck coach for the next year would similarly kill recruiting and the entire outlook of the season.
The best bet, as tough as it sounds, is to stay the course, support the team (and the staff) and see what they can do next season. The buyout next year will be a year lower, and - if things turn south - the athletic department will have ample time to properly comb through and assess candidates during the season.
I agree with this. If Wojo can salvage this mess, MU may have a great coach. Considering the alternatives, I see no downside to another year of Wojo.
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I don't care whether "Hiroshima" is PC or not. (I assume that's what your pithy "Snowflake" response implies.) It waaaayyyy overstates the importance of Sam and Joey transferring. This is nothing like Hiroshima. The closest equivalent to Hiroshima in NCAA basketball is the death penalty -- being banned from competing in the sport altogether, a devastating event which can negatively impact a program for years or decades.
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I don't care whether "Hiroshima" is PC or not. (I assume that's what your pithy "Snowflake" response implies.) It waaaayyyy overstates the importance of Sam and Joey transferring. This is nothing like Hiroshima. The closest equivalent to Hiroshima in NCAA basketball is the death penalty -- being banned from competing in the sport altogether, a devastating event which can negatively impact a program for years or decades.
Well there you go comparing basketball to an atomic bomb...get over yourself.
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A) Did the Hausers have major off-court issues? Or were they instead exemplary student athletes.
B) Does losing Sam and Joey make us more or less likely to win as many games as possible next season? These are the things you say you care about.
You're willing to back a coach who willingly chooses to make his job much harder but not being able to keep 2 of his best players? And yes, I say "willingly chooses" due to his inability to reign in Markus despite THE ENTIRE TEAM pleading with him on multiple occasions to change things: not just Sam and Joey. If this a Hauser problem, why are we still not out of the woods on other core players potentially leaving yet?
Sorry, logged off for awhile.
I think you may have misunderstood my point. I wasn't implying that the Hausers were bad players or had off the court issues. They are excellent players and were fantastic representatives of the university.
What I was saying is that their departure doesn't factor into my personal judgement of whether or not Wojo should be fired. I don't care if Wojo wins with the Hausers or without them. I just care that he wins. You seem to think he can't win without the Hausers. Maybe you're right. I think it's possible. If he loses, he will be fired. If he wins, then he should stay. Either way, you have to give him the chance. You can't just fire him because you think he won't win next season.
As for the rest of your post, maybe you have insight I don't. I have only heard of one serious rumor of a player mulling over a transfer...and after the Hausers left he told the coaches he was going to stay because minutes just opened up. I'll be honest, I am hearing a much different version of the story than you seem to be.
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What that you're failing to grasp is that, albeit counterintuitively, nothing else matters right now beyond "Fire Wojo". As I illustrated in my earlier post - Wojo is the wrong coach for the lofty expectations most have for this program. This has been shown time and time again. Whatever happens after "Fire Wojo", at least there's a CHANCE of that coach being the right coach.
There is a CHANCE as you put it of Wojo being the right coach as well. He has succeeded every year he has been here. Never exceeded expectations, but never failed to meet them. Next season is the highest expectations since he's been here and he lost two of his best weapons. For the first time, I'm not confident he will meet the season expectations. But you have to give him the opportunity. He has to actually have a bad season before you can fire him.
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There is a CHANCE as you put it of Wojo being the right coach as well. He has succeeded every year he has been here. Never exceeded expectations, but never failed to meet them. Next season is the highest expectations since he's been here and he lost two of his best weapons. For the first time, I'm not confident he will meet the season expectations. But you have to give him the opportunity. He has to actually have a bad season before you can fire him.
Which expectations?
Pre-Hauser Departure: Top 10 and top seed
Post-Hauser Departure: Bubble and 10-seed
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You state all of this as if its known fact. Who were the multiple guys, when did these multiple times occur, who else is mulling, who are your sources. Just posting something a million times doesn't make it true. I thought you were "one post Johnson"
It’s called irony, look it up. It’s fact, if you want to know more you’re welcome to DM me like others have but you have to be smarter than thinking I’m gonna sit here and publicly state who’s sharing what. I’m saying this “a million times” because some of you aren’t listening and continue to brush off the legit problems with this program.
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Sorry, logged off for awhile.
I think you may have misunderstood my point. I wasn't implying that the Hausers were bad players or had off the court issues. They are excellent players and were fantastic representatives of the university.
What I was saying is that their departure doesn't factor into my personal judgement of whether or not Wojo should be fired. I don't care if Wojo wins with the Hausers or without them. I just care that he wins. You seem to think he can't win without the Hausers. Maybe you're right. I think it's possible. If he loses, he will be fired. If he wins, then he should stay. Either way, you have to give him the chance. You can't just fire him because you think he won't win next season.
As for the rest of your post, maybe you have insight I don't. I have only heard of one serious rumor of a player mulling over a transfer...and after the Hausers left he told the coaches he was going to stay because minutes just opened up. I'll be honest, I am hearing a much different version of the story than you seem to be.
You’re welcome to DM me.
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He has succeeded every year he has been here.
If you believe that your standards for MUBB are not the same as mine. Therefore, having this conversation wouldn't be fair to you or me.
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The immediate wake?
Get rid of Wojo now and hire one of the assistants as an interim for next year. Call next season and the 2020 recruiting class a wash, and after next season, hire a guy with a proven track record of building a program at the high major level.
I understand this won’t happen, and that we’ll go into next year with Wojo as our coach. But he’s a dead man walking. His credibility with recruits, the fan base, and college basketball as a whole took a massive hit yesterday. We all know that, barring some miracle season, he’s done after next year. Well, maybe not all of us know that, but anyone willing to look at this situation objectively does.
I swear this is like the 15th "crisis" that was caused by an MU coach that people have told me would cause the coach to lose all credibility. Yet somehow we are still here....
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If you believe that your standards for MUBB are not the same as mine. Therefore, having this conversation wouldn't be fair to you or me.
Don't mistake what I said. My standards for MUBB are a return to blue blood status and nothing short of that will ever have me content. I'm just patient and recognize the steps required to get there.
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I swear this is like the 15th "crisis" that was caused by an MU coach that people have told me would cause the coach to lose all credibility. Yet somehow we are still here....
Still where? This is an absolute disaster for the program, especially if the Hausers end up at UW, which looks very likely.
If you want to keep defending Wojo in the wake of all this, you do you.
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This is an absolute disaster for the program, especially if the Hausers end up at UW, which looks very likely.
It's not that likely.
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Still where? This is an absolute disaster for the program, especially if the Hausers end up at UW, which looks very likely.
If you want to keep defending Wojo in the wake of all this, you do you.
I wasn't aware that I defended Wojo. Hyperbole is just amusing to me.
I'll be honest, I don't give the tiniest crap where the Hausers end up unless its back here. I'm not sure why it matters.
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I don't care whether "Hiroshima" is PC or not. (I assume that's what your pithy "Snowflake" response implies.) It waaaayyyy overstates the importance of Sam and Joey transferring. This is nothing like Hiroshima. The closest equivalent to Hiroshima in NCAA basketball is the death penalty -- being banned from competing in the sport altogether, a devastating event which can negatively impact a program for years or decades.
Hiroshima is a longstanding joke to the Buzz days.
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Don't mistake what I said. My standards for MUBB are a return to blue blood status and nothing short of that will ever have me content. I'm just patient and recognize the steps required to get there.
What steps are left? We’ve been through more than one full recruiting cycle and have not one tangible something to show for it. Even more disturbing, we’ve seen negative idiosyncrasies exist throughout multiple iterations of Wojo teams (Carlino, Rowsey, Howard, defense, transfers, etc).
In the words of that one guy who I don’t know who he was; “they are who we thought they were!”
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It's not that likely.
I hope you’re right.
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I wasn't aware that I defended Wojo. Hyperbole is just amusing to me.
I'll be honest, I don't give the tiniest crap where the Hausers end up unless its back here. I'm not sure why it matters.
Just proudly admit your a slurper. Nothing wrong with that.
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What steps are left? We’ve been through more than one full recruiting cycle and have not one tangible something to show for it. Even more disturbing, we’ve seen negative idiosyncrasies exist throughout multiple iterations of Wojo teams (Carlino, Rowsey, Howard, defense, transfers, etc).
In the words of that one guy who I don’t know who he was; “they are who we thought they were!”
Denny Green - RIP
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What steps are left? We’ve been through more than one full recruiting cycle and have not one tangible something to show for it. Even more disturbing, we’ve seen negative idiosyncrasies exist throughout multiple iterations of Wojo teams (Carlino, Rowsey, Howard, defense, transfers, etc).
In the words of that one guy who I don’t know who he was; “they are who we thought they were!”
To becoming a blue blood? Multiple decades of success.
First step was the rebuild. It took four years. The past season was the first year after the rebuild and was a success. Now we have to sustain and build upon that success. Losing the Hausers is a significant blow. I'm less confident now than I have ever been that Wojo can meet a season's expectations.
As for your negative idiosyncrisices. I don't consider Carlino, Rowsey, or Howard to be negatives. The defense was a strength for two seasons, a weakness for two seasons, and a strength in the most recent season. Transfers? These are the first transfers I am concerned about in the Wojo era.
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To becoming a blue blood? Multiple decades of success.
First step was the rebuild. It took four years. The past season was the first year after the rebuild and was a success. Now we have to sustain and build upon that success. Losing the Hausers is a significant blow. I'm less confident now than I have ever been that Wojo can meet a season's expectations.
As for your negative idiosyncrisices. I don't consider Carlino, Rowsey, or Howard to be negatives. The defense was a strength for two seasons, a weakness for two seasons, and a strength in the most recent season. Transfers? These are the first transfers I am concerned about in the Wojo era.
This is the thing with the Projos. No matter how much evidence you lay right in front of them - they refuse to look.
It’s no coincidence that Marquette’s slump came in the second half of the season. The half of the season where the Big East got their second crack at Wojo and Howard. By them time Wojo and company were dissected by the rest of the BEAST he was so confused that he puked a gameplan for Murray State that resulted in potentially the most embarrassing basketball performance from Marquette in modern history (no hyperbole). The man is not a good coach. Hanging on at this point is simply hoping against hope that he can just figure it out. And that doesn’t happen. Coaching is something you either can or cannot do. And Wojo is clearly a cannot do. Stop with the excuses and let’s all move on.
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With that train of thought we'd have never hired Buzz. We may have never hired Al McGuire!
What's hilarious is that the majority (or at least a sizable minority) of Scoopers didn't want Buzz.
And I could pretty much guarantee that if Scoop existed in 1964, folks would have just loved that we settled for a low-major guy who had gone 13-39 his last two seasons at Belmont Abbey and whose win total decreased every single year he was there.
So yeah, I don't blame the fire-him-this-instant crowd for not wanting to talk about who Wojo's replacement should be.
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Just proudly admit your a slurper. Nothing wrong with that.
But I'm not. I have zero love for Wojo. None. If he got fired today I wouldn't give the slightest of f*cks. From that moment on, I doubt I would dedicate any brain power towards him. My mind would already be onto what is best for the program. Who should we hire? What players can we retain? What players should be encouraged to leave? How do we ensure a smooth transition? How do we avoid another multi year rebuild, if we do need a rebuild how many years will it take?
You mistake patience for "slurping." I support Wojo because at the moment, him being successful gives my program the best chance for reaching the ultimate goal of a return to blue blood status. Firing him now is a non-option. You simply can't fire a coach coming off his best season. Plus, the window passed. The likelihood of Marquette landing a strong candidate at this point is slim to none. Much more likely to sink the program than save it. In my head, I am already thinking of what coaches we can quietly reach out to and have ready to take over the program if Wojo fails next season and needs to be fired. How Buzz ended up at TAMU may make some uncomfortable but that is how you pull off a coaching change.
History is full of leaders being overthrown and toppled. Most ended up being replaced by someone just as bad or worse than before. The few successful ones planned for what happens after the leader is removed from power.
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What's hilarious is that the majority (or at least a sizable minority) of Scoopers didn't want Buzz.
And I could pretty much guarantee that if Scoop existed in 1964, folks would have just loved that we settled for a low-major guy who had gone 13-39 his last two seasons at Belmont Abbey and whose win total decreased every single year he was there.
So yeah, I don't blame the fire-him-this-instant crowd for not wanting to talk about who Wojo's replacement should be.
This is the correct line of thinking. Whoever the “someone” is that’s out there that is next deserves their chance with Marquette’s coffers. Wojo had his chance and peed down his leg.
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This is the thing with the Projos. No matter how much evidence you lay right in front of them - they refuse to look.
It’s no coincidence that Marquette’s slump came in the second half of the season. The half of the season where the Big East got their second crack at Wojo and Howard. By them time Wojo and company were dissected by the rest of the BEAST he was so confused that he puked a gameplan for Murray State that resulted in potentially the most embarrassing basketball performance from Marquette in modern history (no hyperbole). The man is not a good coach. Hanging on at this point is simply hoping against hope that he can just figure it out. And that doesn’t happen. Coaching is something you either can or cannot do. And Wojo is clearly a cannot do. Stop with the excuses and let’s all move on.
Projos is clever. Not accurate but clever.
I don't think men who are "not a good coach" raise teams from nowhere near the postseason to 5 seed. I don't think it takes a great coach but I also don't think "not a good coach" could do it.
I also never bought the "they figured out Wojo out" argument. Evidence as you put it didn't fit. The Howard was injured argument made some sense to me. The team dysfunction argument makes some sense to me too. Truth is probably a mixed bag.
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Projos is clever. Not accurate but clever.
I don't think men who are "not a good coach" raise teams from nowhere near the postseason to 5 seed. I don't think it takes a great coach but I also don't think "not a good coach" could do it.
I also never bought the "they figured out Wojo out" argument. Evidence as you put it didn't fit. The Howard was injured argument made some sense to me. The team dysfunction argument makes some sense to me too. Truth is probably a mixed bag.
I will concede that all of these things likely played a role to varying degrees. But I believe a good to great coach would never be caught with his pants down the way Marquette was - regardless of the other factors.
And to your first point. Almost every analytic showed us as a massively overrated 5 seed and possibly the most overseeded team in the entire tournament. Throughout the year various analytics (Kenpom and others) has us at the edge of or outside the Top 25. The eye test showed that as well. A strong run through the first leg of a weak Big East inflated both our Top 25 and NCAAT ranking. In the end, the number next to the name is arbitrary.
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I will concede that all of these things likely played a role to varying degrees. But I believe a good to great coach would never be caught with his pants down the way Marquette was - regardless of the other factors.
And to your first point. Almost every analytic showed us as a massively overrated 5 seed and possibly the most overseeded team in the entire tournament. Throughout the year various analytics (Kenpom and others) has us at the edge of or outside the Top 25. The eye test showed that as well. A strong run through the first leg of a weak Big East inflated both our Top 25 and NCAAT ranking. In the end, the number next to the name is arbitrary.
We definitely disagree on the last point. I have found getting high seeds is the best indicator of success for a program.
But I agree, if you asked me if I thought we were the 17th best team in the country I would have told you no. I wouldn't have gone as low as KenPom (I think it was 28 at the time) did but I thought we were more like the 24th or 25th best team. But we did have the 17th best resume and our selection proved that. Personally, I think it is better to be the 25th best team and earn the 17th best resume than it is to be the 17th best team and earn the 25th best resume.
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But I'm not. I have zero love for Wojo. None. If he got fired today I wouldn't give the slightest of f*cks. From that moment on, I doubt I would dedicate any brain power towards him. My mind would already be onto what is best for the program. Who should we hire? What players can we retain? What players should be encouraged to leave? How do we ensure a smooth transition? How do we avoid another multi year rebuild, if we do need a rebuild how many years will it take?
You mistake patience for "slurping." I support Wojo because at the moment, him being successful gives my program the best chance for reaching the ultimate goal of a return to blue blood status. Firing him now is a non-option. You simply can't fire a coach coming off his best season. Plus, the window passed. The likelihood of Marquette landing a strong candidate at this point is slim to none. Much more likely to sink the program than save it. In my head, I am already thinking of what coaches we can quietly reach out to and have ready to take over the program if Wojo fails next season and needs to be fired. How Buzz ended up at TAMU may make some uncomfortable but that is how you pull off a coaching change.
History is full of leaders being overthrown and toppled. Most ended up being replaced by someone just as bad or worse than before. The few successful ones planned for what happens after the leader is removed from power.
The players don't trust the coach. Wojo has thrown too many of them under the bus over the years. A lack of trust breeds a lack of success.
What you are missing is that Wojo is the classic corporate hack. That is why he got the job originally , he was expert at bunghole kissing with his powerpoint. However, like all corporate hacks, who are nothing more than stuffed shirts, they are eventually exposed for being the charlatans that they are. The Hauser Brothers did our program a favor by dramatically exposing Wojo for being the stuffed suit that he is.
The sooner MU gets rid of this guy the better off they will be. I say Fire Wojo today and hire Stan. The players actually respect Stan and given the new racial make up of the team I think it is important to have Stan in charge now.
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Post Hiroshima.
As I dig through the rubble, things are becoming much more clear. In fact, I'm even seeing remnants of times past.
I don't think we need to wait for Big Daddy to tell us the story as to why Grimes came and went so quickly.
This nuke has blasted a crater in the program. And we're seeing a lot more skeletons in the proverbial closet.
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The players don't trust the coach. Wojo has thrown too many of them under the bus over the years. A lack of trust breeds a lack of success.
What you are missing is that Wojo is the classic corporate hack. That is why he got the job originally , he was expert at bunghole kissing with his powerpoint. However, like all corporate hacks, who are nothing more than stuffed shirts, they are eventually exposed for being the charlatans that they are. The Hauser Brothers did our program a favor by dramatically exposing Wojo for being the stuffed suit that he is.
The sooner MU gets rid of this guy the better off they will be. I say Fire Wojo today and hire Stan. The players actually respect Stan and given the new racial make up of the team I think it is important to have Stan in charge now.
Posted at the same time as me. All the walls are talking, Aina?
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The players don't trust the coach. Wojo has thrown too many of them under the bus over the years. A lack of trust breeds a lack of success.
What you are missing is that Wojo is the classic corporate hack. That is why he got the job originally , he was expert at bunghole kissing with his powerpoint. However, like all corporate hacks, who are nothing more than stuffed shirts, they are eventually exposed for being the charlatans that they are. The Hauser Brothers did our program a favor by dramatically exposing Wojo for being the stuffed suit that he is.
The sooner MU gets rid of this guy the better off they will be. I say Fire Wojo today and hire Stan. The players actually respect Stan and given the new racial make up of the team I think it is important to have Stan in charge now.
So you're essentially saying that everyone hates Wojo...but Stan is so amazing that they all stay in spite of Wojo.
You're advocating for an emotional decision. Being part of an angry mob is fun, but it rarely leads to anything positive. If Wojo does need to go, the next hire is critical. Two consecutive failed rebuilds is the death knell for any program. Firing Wojo means the first one failed. You fail the second one and your program is mediocre likely for decades. The transition needs to be planned and well executed.
Stan is a helluva guy. Can obviously recruit and can make you want to run through a brick wall. I would not be confident in the Xs and Os or player development pieces of his game. Could be wrong, maybe he's the next Beard but that is not a transition that would give me confidence.
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So you're essentially saying that everyone hates Wojo...but Stan is so amazing that they all stay in spite of Wojo.
...............
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We definitely disagree on the last point. I have found getting high seeds is the best indicator of success for a program.
But I agree, if you asked me if I thought we were the 17th best team in the country I would have told you no. I wouldn't have gone as low as KenPom (I think it was 28 at the time) did but I thought we were more like the 24th or 25th best team. But we did have the 17th best resume and our selection proved that. Personally, I think it is better to be the 25th best team and earn the 17th best resume than it is to be the 17th best team and earn the 25th best resume.
Yes but the second team in your postulate is more likely to make a S16 E8 run while the first is more likely to get blown out by a midmajor while giving up a triple double to a player/team that are subsequently easily handled by a similar seed. (Sorry, too specific?)
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Yes but the second team in your postulate is more likely to make a S16 E8 run while the first is more likely to get blown out by a midmajor while giving up a triple double to a player/team that are subsequently easily handled by a similar seed. (Sorry, too specific?)
Its possible. I'd need to check the math but my guess is high seeds do better than high KenPom. Could be wrong.
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Its possible. I'd need to check the math but my guess is high seeds do better than high KenPom. Could be wrong.
Now we’re just boiling it down to who is better at identifying accurate NCAA rankings:
Kenpom’s algorithm or Barry Alvarez, Condeleeza Rice, and the rest of the selection committee.
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...............
If this is the case, and it appears to be just name him the interim and use it as a one year trial. Wojo doesn’t deserve to keep his job.
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I hate this subject title. Just 2 atomic bombs have been used in warfare since 1945. The results were so horrific, we haven't seen such weapons deployed since.
It's beyond ridiculous to compare two college students leaving Marquette to an event such as Hiroshima. Come on, get a grip. We've managed to deal with the unexpected departures of players such as Jeronne Maymon, Deonte Burton, Vander Blue and Haanif Cheatham. We've had coaches pull up stakes and leave in the middle of the night. MU will get past this.
Well said
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If this is the case, and it appears to be just name him the interim and use it as a one year trial. Wojo doesn’t deserve to keep his job.
Has anyone seen Stan's PowerPoint skills?
(hint: they're awful)
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Stan must read Scoop.
Stan Johnson
@MUCoachJohnson
Inhale.... exhale. Everything is going to be okay. Actually it’s going to be better than okay. Since the beginning of time God has chosen the unlikely to do the unimaginable.
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But I'm not. I have zero love for Wojo. None. If he got fired today I wouldn't give the slightest of f*cks. From that moment on, I doubt I would dedicate any brain power towards him. My mind would already be onto what is best for the program. Who should we hire? What players can we retain? What players should be encouraged to leave? How do we ensure a smooth transition? How do we avoid another multi year rebuild, if we do need a rebuild how many years will it take?
You mistake patience for "slurping." I support Wojo because at the moment, him being successful gives my program the best chance for reaching the ultimate goal of a return to blue blood status. Firing him now is a non-option. You simply can't fire a coach coming off his best season. Plus, the window passed. The likelihood of Marquette landing a strong candidate at this point is slim to none. Much more likely to sink the program than save it. In my head, I am already thinking of what coaches we can quietly reach out to and have ready to take over the program if Wojo fails next season and needs to be fired. How Buzz ended up at TAMU may make some uncomfortable but that is how you pull off a coaching change.
History is full of leaders being overthrown and toppled. Most ended up being replaced by someone just as bad or worse than before. The few successful ones planned for what happens after the leader is removed from power.
With this latest fiasco. We are eons from obtaining blue blood status. And that sucks.
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This is the most Pro-Wojo post on this board. That is all you need to know about the state of affairs. Pretty sad.
Thank God the vast majority of fans, boosters and the MU brass think more highly of MU than this guy. Wojo is another day closer to the end of his contract for a reason. Not a good time to replace the coach but obviously not time to extend his contract. No faith in Wojo from MU administration. Wojo is most definitely on the clock.
I think very highly of MU. I am an enormous fan. I would put my fandom up against just about anybody. But I am also realistic. Marquette is in Milwaukee, Wisconsin. Not exactly the easiest place to recruit. It is smaller, private school in a cold weather city. We have exactly 3 final 4 appearances in our history, and 1 in the last 42 years, and not one in over 15 years. Since 2000, Marquette has made the tournament 12 times, and missed it 8. Only advanced past the Sweet 16 two times. Again, a very nice program.
But we are not a blue blood, and will never be a blue blood. One could make an argument that it is a top 20 program. But I don't have these illusions that some people around here have that we should just can our coach at any sign of trouble - we are, afterall, coming off a 24-10 season and a top 16 seed in the tournament. The most wins we've had since 2013. A couple days ago Marquette was considered by most pundits to be a shoe-in top 10 team next season. A couple kids transfer and now the world is ending and we need to fire Wojo? Its just silly. Who exactly are we going to hire?
How next season shakes out and what the 2020 recruiting class ends up looking like are going to be make or break time for Wojo though, IMO. I place a good deal of the blame for the Hauser situation on Wojo, but I also don't claim to have all the details, and knowing how much Wojo loves Sam, I am sure he did everything he could to keep him around short of telling Markus to GTFO.
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Stan must read Scoop.
Stan Johnson
@MUCoachJohnson
Inhale.... exhale. Everything is going to be okay. Actually it’s going to be better than okay. Since the beginning of time God has chosen the unlikely to do the unimaginable.
He's not just hearing it on Scoop. I sure the boosters, alumni, students, administration and media are all expressing concern for the program.
I feel bad for him; I'm guessing he thought he and the rest of the staff would get an extension and raise at some point.
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So you're essentially saying that everyone hates Wojo...but Stan is so amazing that they all stay in spite of Wojo.
There is significantly more truth to that statement than you might believe.
Edit to add that I agree with you that Stan is probably not the answer for who the next head coach should be.
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poll is once again 67-33 in favor of keeping Wojo, even after all that has gone down. Sure, it is a shift from the previous 85-15 but still overwhelmingly in favor of Wojo.
Would be a landslide election.
Can we shut down fire Wojo talk until we see how 2019-2020 goes?
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poll is once again 67-33 in favor of keeping Wojo, even after all that has gone down. Sure, it is a shift from the previous 85-15 but still overwhelmingly in favor of Wojo.
Would be a landslide election.
Can we shut down fire Wojo talk until we see how 2019-2020 goes?
People who are passionate about these things are much more likely to vote as well. At this point, the people that want Wojo canned are much more vocal and passionate than the group that thinks that would be stupid.
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So you're essentially saying that everyone hates Wojo...but Stan is so amazing that they all stay in spite of Wojo.
You're advocating for an emotional decision. Being part of an angry mob is fun, but it rarely leads to anything positive. If Wojo does need to go, the next hire is critical. Two consecutive failed rebuilds is the death knell for any program. Firing Wojo means the first one failed. You fail the second one and your program is mediocre likely for decades. The transition needs to be planned and well executed.
Stan is a helluva guy. Can obviously recruit and can make you want to run through a brick wall. I would not be confident in the Xs and Os or player development pieces of his game. Could be wrong, maybe he's the next Beard but that is not a transition that would give me confidence.
Team sports are about getting players to work together toward a common goal. This requires a lot of trust among all the parties. It starts with the coach as being perceived to be fair. When faith in the coach is lost, everyone is then is out for themselves. So not really an emotional decision here to advocate for Wojo ouster, but rather one rooted in practical experience.
Stan has the confidence of the team. Everyone on the team views him positively. Creates a fresh new start for the team. I have never questioned Wojo x and os the way some people do. My biggest beef is with roster management and team culture . When a team oriented kid like Sam says No Mas it really is a sign something is rotten in the state of Denmark.
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Team sports are about getting players to work together toward a common goal. This requires a lot of trust among all the parties. It starts with the coach as being perceived to be fair. When faith in the coach is lost, everyone is then is out for themselves. So not really an emotional decision here to advocate for Wojo ouster, but rather one rooted in practical experience.
Stan has the confidence of the team. Everyone on the team views him positively. Creates a fresh new start for the team. I have never questioned Wojo x and os the way some people do. My biggest beef is with roster management and team culture . When a team oriented kid like Sam says No Mas it really is a sign something is rotten in the state of Denmark.
Gotta ask... Why do you think Stan could keep that confidence moving up to the big chair? Different role, spotlight, expectations, choices, creating inherently more conflicts.
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poll is once again 67-33 in favor of keeping Wojo, even after all that has gone down. Sure, it is a shift from the previous 85-15 but still overwhelmingly in favor of Wojo.
Would be a landslide election.
Can we shut down fire Wojo talk until we see how 2019-2020 goes?
Yes, we must shut down all independent thought about criticizing Wojo, until how we see how the next year goes, because we will be really, really good. We should forget about the late season melt down and the latest fiasco with the Hausers. Because as Scarlett used to say, "Tommorow is another day." UNTIL ANOTHER SHOE DROPS
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Gotta ask... Why do you think Stan could keep that confidence moving up to the big chair? Different role, spotlight, expectations, choices, creating inherently more conflicts.
I believe the players fundamentally trust him and do not trust Wojo. Wojo has thrown too many kids under the bus over the years. Because of the trust, I believe Stan is in a better position to get the kids to buy into what is necessary to win.
Stan did a great job with JJJ and was a key figure in the armistice between the two of them. I have great confidence in this particular situation in what Stan brings to the table.
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Team sports are about getting players to work together toward a common goal. This requires a lot of trust among all the parties. It starts with the coach as being perceived to be fair. When faith in the coach is lost, everyone is then is out for themselves. So not really an emotional decision here to advocate for Wojo ouster, but rather one rooted in practical experience.
Stan has the confidence of the team. Everyone on the team views him positively. Creates a fresh new start for the team. I have never questioned Wojo x and os the way some people do. My biggest beef is with roster management and team culture . When a team oriented kid like Sam says No Mas it really is a sign something is rotten in the state of Denmark.
I don't think you're understanding me. Even if everything you say is true and the players have no trust in Wojo anymore and the team is going to suck....I'd rather sacrifice next season and do a targeted search with a well thought out plan for transition then hand the reins to a guy who we are stuck with because we can't get anyone better.
Something that needs to be understood. Our program cannot handle two consecutive failed rebuilds. If we fire Wojo it means the first one failed. If the one after that fails too, we may not be able to recover and if we do it will be decades before we are back on track.
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I don't think you're understanding me. Even if everything you say is true and the players have no trust in Wojo anymore and the team is going to suck....I'd rather sacrifice next season and do a targeted search with a well thought out plan for transition then hand the reins to a guy who we are stuck with because we can't get anyone better.
Something that needs to be understood. Our program cannot handle two consecutive failed rebuilds. If we fire Wojo it means the first one failed. If the one after that fails too, we may not be able to recover and if we do it will be decades before we are back on track.
This is a very logical theory of the case as long as the transfer issue is contained at this point. If it gets worse you can always turn things over to an asst later
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I don't think you're understanding me. Even if everything you say is true and the players have no trust in Wojo anymore and the team is going to suck....I'd rather sacrifice next season and do a targeted search with a well thought out plan for transition then hand the reins to a guy who we are stuck with because we can't get anyone better.
Something that needs to be understood. Our program cannot handle two consecutive failed rebuilds. If we fire Wojo it means the first one failed. If the one after that fails too, we may not be able to recover and if we do it will be decades before we are back on track.
I am actually uncomfortable with a targeted plan and search. Camel was a horse built by committee.
Stan is here and did a great job recruiting the team in place . I am looking at this circumstance the same way that Xavier did with Travis Steele. The kids lobbied for Steele and the administrators agreed. Steele did an exceptional job when handed the reigns. He went out and got three solid grad transfers to deal with the present and then signed 5 kids with promise to come in this season. It took him a while to get going during the season but Xavier came in strong at the end when it matters most and are in a very good place heading into next season. Important to note that Xavier is a highly desirable place for a coach with its winning history , sold out on campus
arena and all the resources in place to compete at the high major level.
The one thing I know about MU sports administration is they actually care about kids . Scholl is very attuned to the students athletes having a good experience . So I don’t see hiring Stan as stretch at all.
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Y'all are focused on should Wojo bee chit canned. Butt, watt if Steve wanted outta dis gig and wuz actively seekin' another job. Maybe he wood welcome leavin' Peyton Place, hey?
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I am actually uncomfortable with a targeted plan and search. Camel was a horse built by committee.
Stan is here and did a great job recruiting the team in place . I am looking at this circumstance the same way that Xavier did with Travis Steele. The kids lobbied for Steele and the administrators agreed. Steele did an exceptional job when handed the reigns. He went out and got three solid grad transfers to deal with the present and then signed 5 kids with promise to come in this season. It took him a while to get going during the season but Xavier came in strong at the end when it matters most and are in a very good place heading into next season. Important to note that Xavier is a highly desirable place for a coach with its winning history , sold out on campus
arena and all the resources in place to compete at the high major level.
The one thing I know about MU sports administration is they actually care about kids . Scholl is very attuned to the students athletes having a good experience . So I don’t see hiring Stan as stretch at all.
I thinking hiring the assistant of a coach you just fired for poor performance is a huge stretch. I'm not sure it has ever happened at the high major level.
I also think using a 1 year coach who went to the NIT after taking over a team that just earned a 1 seed is not a ringing endorsement. Maybe Steele works out. He's far from a proven commodity at this point.
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Result so far...
I hate you
I loathe you
But there ain't no way I'm ever gonna fire you
But don't be glad
Cuz
2 out of 3's still bad
I cannot lie (I cannot lie)
I can't pretend Wojo is something he's not
No matter how I try
He'll never be able
To get the Duke job that he sought
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Y'all are focused on should Wojo bee chit canned. Butt, watt if Steve wanted outta dis gig and wuz actively seekin' another job. Maybe he wood welcome leavin' Peyton Place, hey?
Going into this year my ideal scenario was that Wojo performed well enough to be hired away by someone willing to pay the make whole agreement with MU. MU pockets the loot and moves on.
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I thinking hiring the assistant of a coach you just fired for poor performance is a huge stretch. I'm not sure it has ever happened at the high major level.
I also think using a 1 year coach who went to the NIT after taking over a team that just earned a 1 seed is not a ringing endorsement. Maybe Steele works out. He's far from a proven commodity at this point.
We would not be firing Wojo for poor performance. We would be firing him because he lost the confidence of his team. Kind of like the British parliamentary system. The assistant coach was responsible for bringing in the talent. Happens all the time.
Travis Steele did a great job at Xavier. Xavier graduated its key players and Steele was able to quickly assemble the Grad Transfers needed to keep the ship afloat. That is a lot easier said than done. Then he was able to secure his solid 5 man recruiting class . Again easier said than done. He got the team performing when it counted the most. When I saw Xavier play at the Big East tournament against Villanova, they look very impressive. They lose the grad transfers but have all the rest of the team coming back and then the 5 recruits plus a traditional transfer . Steele then was able to secure two solid grad transfers for this year:
https://www.cincinnati.com/story/sports/college/xavier/xaviersports/2019/04/17/xavier-basketball-lands-western-michigan-grad-transfer-bryce-moore/3500106002/
https://www.cincinnati.com/story/sports/college/xavier/xaviersports/2019/04/17/xavier-basketball-lands-western-michigan-grad-transfer-bryce-moore/3500106002/
So in summary Steele in his first year , reloaded and Xavier did not have to go through a rebuild. He posted a winning season and has momentum.
Steele > Wojo
And if you have any doubt about his recruiting abilities going forward please click on the photo in the instagram link. Obviously the guy is a talented salesman
https://twitter.com/blackburnreview/status/980135007946723329
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Get. Ben. Howland.
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Steele may be better than Wojo. I'll need more than 1 NIT season after inheriting a team that had just earned a 1 seed to prove it.
You say firing a head coach for losing the team and hiring one his assistants happens all the time. Can you give some examples at the high major level? I can think of times when a coach was fired because of recruiting violations or illegal issues but not outside of that.
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Get. Ben. Howland.
He wasn't an option in 2014. He's not an option now.
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Steele may be better than Wojo. I'll need more than 1 NIT season after inheriting a team that had just earned a 1 seed to prove it.
You say firing a head coach for losing the team and hiring one his assistants happens all the time. Can you give some examples at the high major level? I can think of times when a coach was fired because of recruiting violations or illegal issues but not outside of that.
Steele did not inherit the 1 seed team. They lost their top three scorers who accounted for the bulk of their production. Bluiett , Macura were signed to NBA contracts. and Kerem Kanter went to play for Turkey. Their fifth leading scorer and 2nd leading rebounder Kaiser Gates left to play in the G League. Sean OMara a solid senior big man also graduated. To use one of your evaluation tools, they lost the bulk of their production.
What you are overlooking is that Steele had the ability to bring in grad transfers who contributed and then got good production out of the rest of the team that returned. He also retained the recruiting class . Steele reloaded , Wojo tore something down that didn't need to be torn down.
Bill Frieder was fired by Bo Schembechler, the assistant Steve Fischer came in and won the national championship for Michigan.
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He wasn't an option in 2014. He's not an option now.
He can be. Everyone has a price.
(https://i.imgur.com/ksWjT8M.gif?noredirect)
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He can be. Everyone has a price.
(https://i.imgur.com/ksWjT8M.gif?noredirect)
I don't think that's why he's not an option now.
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Steele did not inherit the 1 seed team. They lost their top three scorers who accounted for the bulk of their production. Bluiett , Macura were signed to NBA contracts. and Kerem Kanter went to play for Turkey. Their fifth leading scorer and 2nd leading rebounder Kaiser Gates left to play in the G League. Sean OMara a solid senior big man also graduated. To use one of your evaluation tools, they lost the bulk of their production.
What you are overlooking is that Steele had the ability to bring in grad transfers who contributed and then got good production out of the rest of the team that returned. He also retained the recruiting class . Steele reloaded , Wojo tore something down that didn't need to be torn down.
Bill Frieder was fired by Bo Schembechler, the assistant Steve Fischer came in and won the national championship for Michigan.
I'm exactly aware of what Xavier's situation was. Based on the talent they had they should have been an NCAA at large. Not a high one but in the tournament nonetheless Steele underperformed.
You ignored my question. You say firing a head coach for losing the team and hiring one his assistants happens all the time. Can you give some examples at the high major level? I can think of times when a coach was fired because of recruiting violations or legal issues but not outside of that.
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Y'all are focused on should Wojo bee chit canned. Butt, watt if Steve wanted outta dis gig and wuz actively seekin' another job. Maybe he wood welcome leavin' Peyton Place, hey?
That's a very interesting question, something that I think a lot of people here should be pondering pretty carefully.
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Y'all are focused on should Wojo bee chit canned. Butt, watt if Steve wanted outta dis gig and wuz actively seekin' another job. Maybe he wood welcome leavin' Peyton Place, hey?
.............
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I'm exactly aware of what Xavier's situation was. Based on the talent they had they should have been an NCAA at large. Not a high one but in the tournament nonetheless Steele underperformed.
You ignored my question. You say firing a head coach for losing the team and hiring one his assistants happens all the time. Can you give some examples at the high major level? I can think of times when a coach was fired because of recruiting violations or legal issues but not outside of that.
I like how your willing to give Wojo 6 years , but won’t give Steele a few months to get his bearings .
I gave you the Frieder /Steve Fischer example . Bo Schembechler forced out then fired Frieder because the two did not get along.
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I like how your willing to give Wojo 6 years , but won’t give Steele a few months to get his bearings .
I gave you the Frieder /Steve Fischer example . Bo Schembechler forced out then fired Frieder because the two did not get along.
When did I say I wasn't willing to give Steele time? I said I would need more than last season to declare him better than Wojo.
Im sorry you didn't ignore my question, I don't know how I missed that. But you did answer my question badly. Frieden wasn't fired for bad performance. He was fired because he announced he was taking another job at the end of the season. Fisher was promoted because he was the assistant of a successful coach.
Plus, you said this happens all the time. Who else you got? Surely there's an example that's not 30 years old.
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I don't think that's why he's not an option now.
AFAIK, he's had zero off-the-court issues. He got MS State (MISSISSIPPI STATE!) to a five seed in his fourth season. None of his players have written letters to the coaching staff (again, AFAIK)
If we gave him a call, I bet he picks up the phone and listens.
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AFAIK, he's had zero off-the-court issues. He got MS State (MISSISSIPPI STATE!) to a five seed in his fourth season. None of his players have written letters to the coaching staff (again, AFAIK)
If we gave him a call, I bet he picks up the phone and listens.
Just hire Pitino. Onesto will reap the benefits.
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AFAIK, he's had zero off-the-court issues. He got MS State (MISSISSIPPI STATE!) to a five seed in his fourth season. None of his players have written letters to the coaching staff (again, AFAIK)
If we gave him a call, I bet he picks up the phone and listens.
Howland is making more than Wojo. Why would we fire Wojo (and pay remainder of his buyout) to hire Howland (and likely need to up his salary as well). You'd be talking around $4.5 million annually, paying for two head coaches. Not happening.
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Howland is making more than Wojo. Why would we fire Wojo (and pay remainder of his buyout) to hire Howland (and likely need to up his salary as well). You'd be talking around $4.5 million annually, paying for two head coaches. Not happening.
I don't understand the narrative that MU can't pay more than they currently pay Wojo. A coach is compensated based upon their market value. (some could argue Wojo is over paid) With MU's resources I could easily see them paying a coach $3MM per year. Not saying we want Howland or that we could go to $4.5MM per year, but maybe MU could pay that much.
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I don't understand the narrative that MU can't pay more than they currently pay Wojo. A coach is compensated based upon their market value. (some could argue Wojo is over paid) With MU's resources I could easily see them paying a coach $3MM per year. Not saying we want Howland or that we could go to $4.5MM per year, but maybe MU could pay that much.
Our admin thought that Buzz was making too much at $3.5 million...
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AFAIK, he's had zero off-the-court issues. He got MS State (MISSISSIPPI STATE!) to a five seed in his fourth season. None of his players have written letters to the coaching staff (again, AFAIK)
If we gave him a call, I bet he picks up the phone and listens.
You AFAIK is not very F
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Y'all are focused on should Wojo bee chit canned. Butt, watt if Steve wanted outta dis gig and wuz actively seekin' another job. Maybe he wood welcome leavin' Peyton Place, hey?
Where there’s smoke there’s fire eh?
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Our admin thought that Buzz was making too much at $3.5 million...
Thanks for proving my point. MU can pay that much, maybe more now. Did they think that was too much due to the "issues" going on and Buzz's role in it?
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Thanks for proving my point. MU can pay that much, maybe more now. Did they think that was too much due to the "issues" going on and Buzz's role in it?
Buzz was making $3.5 million not because admin thought the head coach was worth that much, but because he was smarter at reading fine print of contracts. He had an escalating contract, with a guaranteed five-year roll-over clause, upon the conclusion of every season. Again, if our school thought a coach who went to two Sweet 16s and an Elite Eight was making too much money, do you really think they are going to go out, spend more, on a proven coach?
The last acting head coach Marquette hired was Mike Deane in 1994 (over 25 years ago). I just don't see it if/when we are looking again.
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Buzz was making $3.5 million not because admin thought the head coach was worth that much, but because he was smarter at reading fine print of contracts.
That would be incredibly damning of the administration of a large national university if true. No wonder Buzz left knowing how inept the leadership of MU was.
Everyone should rethink donating money to MU if they made such a massive error in negotiating with a basketball coach who had no counsel. How many millions has MU pissed away in the hundreds or thousands of other contracts they have entered into?
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Has it actually been more than two weeks since we've had a new poll on whether or not to fire Wojo? C'mon, Scoop. Very disappointing.
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Who are these people voting yes? Like seriously - are people happy with the on-court product for the past 5 years? It baffles me.
Guess you missed the more than 3 decades before Buzz with a total of 2 Sweet 16s. That's been par. Buzz was the exception. The disappointment of coach Ks first 5 years would have certainly had you voting to fire him and look what you would have missed.
My guess is the percent you are in is really about 5% of fans - many times as many fans who are upset as content call talk radio or get in the blog's.