More conference realignment talk

[Galway Eagle]

“Yes we’re snobby and dismissive.”

Marquette made the NCAA Tourney 6 times in the previous 22 seasons before entering the Big East.

Yes? Isn't that what I'm saying? Or did you want me to write 'unwarranted snobby and dismissive?

[Scoop Snoop]

Marquette is a much better basketball program than VCU.

The Big East is also a "big boy league" and the A10 is not.

I think VCU would do great in the Big East. If Gonzaga and current P6 schools were not available and the Big East needed to expand, VCU would be on the shortlist for me, might even be my top choice.

All that you have written makes sense to me and addresses concerns regarding VCU as a potential BE candidate. Gonzaga, Syracuse et al are clearly much better candidates, but VCU could, and I think would, develop/morph into a really good team in a few years if they became a BE member. The foundation is in place in Richmond. Using Marquette as a benchmark for VCU BE admission is ridiculous. Market size is a concern, but the trend seems to be nationalization of college bball, so Richmond's modest market size may not be a non-starter.

Edit- My comments regarding VCU are admittedly colored somewhat by my being within a two-hour drive of Richmond and having lived there about 20 years.

[shoothoops]

Yes? Isn't that what I'm saying? Or did you want me to write 'unwarranted snobby and dismissive?

You and some others might be snobby and dismissive, but I’m not.

I believe some of these people have a deep, irrational, insecure, fear of MUBB going back to those days. And I think that says more about them than it does MUBB or other teams.

[El Guerrero 2]

I feel like this is just a generational difference here. If you became an MU fan in the pre-Big East era, you probably have sympathy for the plight of schools like VCU, Dayton, and SLU, and are more open to taking a chance on them, knowing that MU resurrected itself. But unlike MU, there isn't anything to "resurrect" at those schools, they'd be entering a whole new stratosphere that those programs have never consistently operated at.

Does the Big East have some down programs? Obviously. Do we need more? No. Is Duquesne at the same level as DePaul? No. Am I snobby and dismissive when it comes to the A10? Yes. Why? Because those fan bases had the balls to come on this message board in 2013 and tell us that MU should get on its knees and beg to get an invite to their second-rate league. Instead, we just took their best programs, blew them out of the water, and left the rest to be the mid-major they are today. Screw them.

[Galway Eagle]

You and some others might be snobby and dismissive, but I’m not.

I believe some of these people have a deep, irrational, insecure, fear of some of MUBB going back to those days. And I think that says more about them than it does MUBB or other teams.

Calling your argument valid is snobby and dismissive? I think barking up the wrong tree here lol I'm agreeing with your argument and giving credence to the A10 having some high major years.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

The Big East should stick with 11 teams if VCU is a serious suggestion.

I am not against expansion if it is reserved for really good programs or historic programs with traditional rivalries with existing members (Gonzaga and Syracuse immediately come to mind). VCU is not a value add.

If we lose members to realignment (UConn to Big12 for example), I'd be ok adding them to fill the hole, but there is absolutely no reason to add them when we already have 11 teams. They aren't going anywhere. We could add them at any time if truly needed.

I'm not suggesting we add them. But if a potential TV partner says "you should add VCU," then you add VCU.

Of course Gonzaga and Syracuse are better options, but I think VCU is a way better option than schools like Dayton and SLU.

[Galway Eagle]

But unlike MU, there isn't anything to "resurrect" at those schools

Don't tell Dayton fans this, they'll never shut up about 3 years in the 60s.

Why? Because those fan bases had the balls to come on this message board in 2013 and tell us that MU should get on its knees and beg to get an invite to their second-rate league.

This is why I'll always be against Dayton joining. I wish we could've figured out who that poster was on UDpride just to troll him over there for a bit.

[Coleman]

I'm not suggesting we add them. But if a potential TV partner says "you should add VCU," then you add VCU.

Of course Gonzaga and Syracuse are better options, but I think VCU is a way better option than schools like Dayton and SLU.

No argument on any of that. I have a hard time imagining Fox saying that, but if they did, agreed.

And yes, compared to Dayton and SLU, VCU is a better choice. I just think the Big East shouldn't take any of them 

[El Guerrero 2]

Are you sitting down?

What if I told you the MUBB Head Coach has made the Sweet 16 once in 14 seasons as a Head Coach? And, he’s coaching in a Big Boy League. New Shaka Smart nickname: Bottom Feeder.

This is such a dumb argument that it proves my point. Do you realize what I happened to our last coach? He got fired because he couldn't make a tournament run. VCU was perfectly happy keeping Shaka for life based on that 2011 run. At MU, he'll be gone in five years if we haven't made a Sweet Sixteen. The expectations are worlds apart.

VCU would obviously get better if added to the Big East. But so would about 275 other programs in CBB. There is little reason to talk about adding them unless something drastic happens with the ACC, which I'll admit is a real possibility.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

“Yes we’re snobby and dismissive.”

Marquette made the NCAA Tourney 6 times in the previous 22 seasons before entering the Big East.

You're taking the wrong lesson from this.  The lesson is, that despite only making 6/22 NCAA tournaments, Marquette was STILL invited to join the Big East. That's because Marquette has loads of tradition, fan support and resources that the University devotes to basketball.  It pays their coaches a lot of money and 80% fills an NBA arena with regularity.

[Hards Alumni]

You're taking the wrong lesson from this.  The lesson is, that despite only making 6/22 NCAA tournaments, Marquette was STILL invited to join the Big East. That's because Marquette has loads of tradition, fan support and resources that the University devotes to basketball.  It pays their coaches a lot of money and 80% fills an NBA arena with regularity.

This is what I was going to say.  Marquette and Creighton both have rabid fan bases, great attendance, and aren't afraid to spend with the big boys on basketball.

[shoothoops]

I feel like this is just a generational difference here. If you became an MU fan in the pre-Big East era, you probably have sympathy for the plight of schools like VCU, Dayton, and SLU, and are more open to taking a chance on them, knowing that MU resurrected itself. But unlike MU, there isn't anything to "resurrect" at those schools, they'd be entering a whole new stratosphere that those programs have never consistently operated at.

Does the Big East have some down programs? Obviously. Do we need more? No. Is Duquesne at the same level as DePaul? No. Am I snobby and dismissive when it comes to the A10? Yes. Why? Because those fan bases had the balls to come on this message board in 2013 and tell us that MU should get on its knees and beg to get an invite to their second-rate league. Instead, we just took their best programs, blew them out of the water, and left the rest to be the mid-major they are today. Screw them.

You sound like Jack Nicholson when Tom Cruise was able to get him to admit he ordered the code red.

So all of this because you disliked a few internet message board posts???  Woah.

Again, this isn't even A10 specific or limited to the A10.

Have some down programs? Those are some loooong periods to be down.

No one is equating the A10 with the Big East. A few insecure ppl have posted that. The Big Eaat has a huge advantage over the A10 with regards to money, commissioner and several other things obviously.

But since you threw it out there and because this board has so much KenPom interest, let's take a look. You see each time I use evidence to support what I say instead of just saying something and then moving the goalposts.

Past 10 seasons DePaul with all of its Big East advantages, has had a better KenPom than Duquesne 6 times and Duquesne was better 4 times. One of those DePaul better seasons waa by 1 number. Is that really something to puff one's chest about? Duquesne finished 9th or worse in the A10 in 6 of those seaaons, and not once did they finish in the top 4.

And then you admit that the Big East is winning with former A10 and for MVC schools?

[shoothoops]

Calling your argument valid is snobby and dismissive? I think barking up the wrong tree here lol I'm agreeing with your argument and giving credence to the A10 having some high major years.

You literally said you were snobby and dismissive.

[Galway Eagle]

You literally said you were snobby and dismissive.

Yeah "we" in this context means "Marquette fans as a whole" which we are. We constantly thumb our noses at other programs (call Dayton the epitome of mid major) and have named everything but the university AL because he allowed us to turn our noses up at other programs. But if you had read my post rather than fixating on the wrong interpretation of a single line you'd have seen I said VCU wouldn't fall flat and defended the A10's metric success in certain years.

Take that chip off your shoulder and you might realize not everyone attacking your viewpoint.

[shoothoops]

This is such a dumb argument that it proves my point. Do you realize what I happened to our last coach? He got fired because he couldn't make a tournament run. VCU was perfectly happy keeping Shaka for life based on that 2011 run. At MU, he'll be gone in five years if we haven't made a Sweet Sixteen. The expectations are worlds apart.

VCU would obviously get better if added to the Big East. But so would about 275 other programs in CBB. There is little reason to talk about adding them unless something drastic happens with the ACC, which I'll admit is a real possibility.

Actually Shaka made the NCAA Tourney 5 out of 6 seasons at VCU. Wojo made the NCAA Tourney 2 out of 7 times at MUBB.

[shoothoops]

You're taking the wrong lesson from this.  The lesson is, that despite only making 6/22 NCAA tournaments, Marquette was STILL invited to join the Big East. That's because Marquette has loads of tradition, fan support and resources that the University devotes to basketball.  It pays their coaches a lot of money and 80% fills an NBA arena with regularity.

So you are saying there are different ways to get an invitation at different times for differrent prograns? Imagine that.

[shoothoops]

Yeah "we" in this context means "Marquette fans as a whole" which we are. We constantly thumb our noses at other programs (call Dayton the epitome of mid major) and have named everything but the university AL because he allowed us to turn our noses up at other programs. But if you had read my post rather than fixating on the wrong interpretation of a single line you'd have seen I said VCU wouldn't fall flat and defended the A10's metric success in certain years.

Take that chip off your shoulder and you might realize not everyone attacking your viewpoint.

I am not in your "We" here. I believe it's popular on this message board which is a teeny tiny fraction of the fan base. And regardless it is something of which I don't do or with which I agree.

I am 100% focused on the snobby dismissive part. That was El Guerrero's first comment about Big Boy League etc...that is 100% why I am here replying.

[Galway Eagle]

I am not in your "We" here. I believe it's popular on this message board which is a teeny tiny fraction of the fan base. And regardless it is something of which I don't do or with which I agree.

I am 100% focused on the snobby dismissive part. That was El Guerrero's first comment about Big Boy League etc...that is 100% why I am here replying.

Now you're just being argumentative for arguments sake. Anybody would know you weren't included in that based on your posts. I said that we based on the old ESPN message boards, posts on Reddit, posts you see on 247 & on Holyland of hoops. Still a small percentage yes but MU fans have a rep for needing to tell everyone about where our tradition is among the top programs and you pointing out a bad stretch doesn't negate that "we" still are all part of the MU fandom which has that reputation.

I'll be sure to write out specific exceptions in the future. There'll be a sign up sheet for anyone who doesn't thumb their nose at VCU next time I use we.

[El Guerrero 2]

I am not in your "We" here. I believe it's popular on this message board which is a teeny tiny fraction of the fan base. And regardless it is something of which I don't do or with which I agree.

I am 100% focused on the snobby dismissive part. That was El Guerrero's first comment about Big Boy League etc...that is 100% why I am here replying.

You realize that bragging rights are a significant reason why college athletics are popular right? Why do we have an AP poll and a national tournament in March if not to rub our superiority in the faces of those beneath us? That is part of what makes college basketball fun.

I really don't understand the need to defend the honor of VCU, a program that you acknowledge isn't on the same level as MU or the rest of the Big East. I'll give elite mid-major programs their due but that doesn't mean I need to acknowledge them as a peer.

[shoothoops]

Now you're just being argumentative for arguments sake. Anybody would know you weren't included in that based on your posts. I said that we based on the old ESPN message boards, posts on Reddit, posts you see on 247 & on Holyland of hoops. Still a small percentage yes but MU fans have a rep for needing to tell everyone about where our tradition is among the top programs and you pointing out a bad stretch doesn't negate that "we" still are all part of the MU fandom which has that reputation.

I'll be sure to write out specific exceptions in the future. There'll be a sign up sheet for anyone who doesn't thumb their nose at VCU next time I use we.

Actually you are projecting the opposite about being argumentative. I don’t need to argue MUBB’s historical place, and, I don’t need to be dismissive and snobby of other schools and leagues.

I also have a realization of where Marquette is and where Marquette has been, good, bad, indifferent included.

[shoothoops]

You realize that bragging rights are a significant reason why college athletics are popular right? Why do we have an AP poll and a national tournament in March if not to rub our superiority in the faces of those beneath us? That is part of what makes college basketball fun.

I really don't understand the need to defend the honor of VCU, a program that you acknowledge isn't on the same level as MU or the rest of the Big East. I'll give elite mid-major programs their due but that doesn't mean I need to acknowledge them as a peer.

That’s a lot of words that don’t include Duquesne and DePaul. I’m pretty fast but you are giving me a good workout catching up to all of these moving goalposts.

Your post here perfectly illustrates the same point as your first post on the subject. I haven’t seen anyone this obtuse since Warden Samuel Norton when talking with Andy Dufresne in his office.

[El Guerrero 2]

That’s a lot of words that don’t include Duquesne and DePaul. I’m pretty fast but you are giving me a good workout catching up to all of these moving goalposts.

Your post here perfectly illustrates the same point as your first post on the subject. I haven’t seen anyone this obtuse since Warden Samuel Norton when talking with Andy Dufresne in his office.

I am a lot of things but obtuse isn't one of them. Review the bolded part above and consider whether you're making any sense.

[shoothoops]

I am a lot of things but obtuse isn't one of them. Review the bolded part above and consider whether you're making any sense.

Sure. Happy to explain.

Your first post said that VCU needed to win more games to be invited to a Big Boy League. I replied to that. No reply about it from you.

You conceded about Butler pedigree. But you only did so because they have had some down seasons in the Big East.

Then you pivoted to Sweet 16’s. I then mentioned the MUBB coach has made one Sweet 16 in 14 seasons.

You then said VCU would be Big East bottom feeders. Even other posters disagreed with that

I also mentioned the long stretches of lack of Sweet 16’s of 3 other Big East teams.

I then referenced that lack of pedigree and lack of Sweet 16’s for this past year’s NCAA Runner Up.

None of these comments received replies.

You then pivoted to generational differences and resurrections.

Then you conceded that there have been some struggling programs in the BE. Then you threw out a random Duquesne vs DePaul thing.

You then pivoted to say that all of this is about a poster or a few posters from who knows when that got under your skin about wanting to join the Big East.

You then conceded that the Big East has taken teams from these leagues and that those teams have been successful in it.

You then pivoted to say that Wojo was fired at MUBB and Shaka wasn’t at VCU incorrectly equating their results at each place. I pointed that out to again crickets.

You then said 275 other teams would be more successful in the Big East. This one was so stunning I didn’t even respond. Not sure I would have said 275, but thanks for illustrating the point though.

You then pivoted to say this was all about bragging rights and that you won’t acknowledge elite mid major programs as a peer.

I think that about covers it.

[Galway Eagle]

Actually you are projecting the opposite about being argumentative. I don’t need to argue MUBB’s historical place, and, I don’t need to be dismissive and snobby of other schools and leagues.

I also have a realization of where Marquette is and where Marquette has been, good, bad, indifferent included.

  lol

[brewcity77]

VCU would be a fine addition. Not great, not a must-add, but not terrible. I looked back at the history, 10 years before joining the Big East and 10 years since. Here are the numbers for our additions:

Butler
10-year kenpom average BEFORE: 61.5
10-year kenpom average AFTER: 65.1
10-year kenpom range BEFORE: 12-145
10-year kenpom range AFTER: 20-121
10-year NCAA Appearances BEFORE: 6
10-year NCAA Appearances AFTER: 5 (including 2020)

Creighton
10-year kenpom average BEFORE: 58.2
10-year kenpom average AFTER: 34.5
10-year kenpom finish range BEFORE: 15-116
10-year kenpom finish range AFTER: 12-79
10-year NCAA Appearances BEFORE: 4
10-year NCAA Appearances AFTER: 7 (including 2020)

Xavier
10-year kenpom average BEFORE: 41.0
10-year kenpom average AFTER: 37.7
10-year kenpom finish range BEFORE: 15-81
10-year kenpom finish range AFTER: 14-66
10-year NCAA Appearances BEFORE: 6
10-year NCAA Appearances AFTER: 5

VCU
10-year kenpom average: 56.4
10-year kenpom range: 25-144
10-year NCAA Appearances: 7

Generally, it seems that programs stay mostly what they are. There might be a case for some slight average improvement, but really the consistent difference is that joining the league is a floor-raiser. Considering how much an outlier that 144 is for VCU (their next worse was 73) my guess is they would consistently be a middle of the pack Big East team. Generally in the 20-70 range, competing for at-large berths most years but not really a league title threat very often. Certainly a fine addition, and a better program than some that are here now, but not one that is a must-add by any means.