More conference realignment talk

[Dr. Blackheart]

Of course there's a reason. They are fundraising tools that support higher education. You can argue that this is too flimsy of a reason but my guess is they start taxing megachurches before they tax college sports.

But the point we in this thread are mostly agreeing with is there is nothing but a flimsy excuse to say these mega conferences and gigantic media revenues are now supporting “higher education”, especially with athletes now being paid. I am all for these revenues to support the schools but these mega conferences with media and endorsement dollars are nothing now but tax shelters for conference monopolies that don’t have anything to do with “higher education”. Go after the B1G and SEC.

It’s a sham.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

But the point we in this thread are mostly agreeing with is there is nothing but a flimsy excuse to say these mega conferences and gigantic media revenues are now supporting “higher education”, especially with athletes now being paid. I am all for these revenues to support the schools but these mega conferences with media and endorsement dollars are nothing now but tax shelters for conference monopolies that don’t have anything to do with “higher education”. Go after the B1G and SEC.

It’s a sham.

And this is hyperbole. As previously discussed, college athletics drives alumni engagement, development, and recruitment. Without it, the academic missions of the universities would suffer.

I have no idea what athletes being paid by third parties has to do with a university's tax exempt status.

[Dr. Blackheart]

And this is hyperbole. As previously discussed, college athletics drives alumni engagement, development, and recruitment. Without it, the academic missions of the universities would suffer.

I have no idea what athletes being paid by third parties has to do with a university's tax exempt status.

Not really. The lines have been crossed on collusion with the media and endorsement parties and the third party conferences (anti trust, collusion). And you keep mentioning universities while I mention conferences. Different entities. Put it it this way:  Learfield is not tax exempt why should the B1G be when it's a commercial property owner?

As to players being paid, the goodwill argument is suddenly blurred when schools (SJU) are using NIL to pay for tuition and getting extra roster spots. It's a shell game with the NIL right now.

This is an old but balanced article from 2017 reviewing both sides. Things have changed considerably since then but the argument to tax has only risen.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/28/sunday-review/college-sports-tax-dodge.html#:~:text=The%20magic%20word%20here%20is,and%20exempt%20from%20income%20taxes.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

Of course there's a reason. They are fundraising tools that support higher education. You can argue that this is too flimsy of a reason but my guess is they start taxing megachurches before they tax college sports.

Colleges and universities could still accept donations as 501(c)(3) institutions and pay unrelated business income tax on athletic activities such as media rights and game ticket revenue.

The IRS has just never classified such income as unrelated to their charitable purpose. Quick look up finds this quote: “An athletic program is considered an integral part of the educational process of a university.”

Colleges and universities pay unrelated business tax regularly on various items. This would be no different.

[WhiteTrash]

Colleges and universities could still accept donations as 501(c)(3) institutions and pay unrelated business income tax on athletic activities such as media rights and game ticket revenue.

The IRS has just never classified such income as unrelated to their charitable purpose. Quick look up finds this quote: “An athletic program is considered an integral part of the educational process of a university.”

Colleges and universities pay unrelated business tax regularly on various items. This would be no different.

As long as the colleges and universities are paying their required taxes on athletic income, "unrelated business", as you outline, I am satisfied.

If they are not, then those schools are are running an ENRON level financial fraud scheme. 

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

As long as the colleges and universities are paying their required taxes on athletic income, "unrelated business", as you outline, I am satisfied.

If they are not, then those schools are are running an ENRON level financial fraud scheme. 

They aren't paying income tax on media rights fees, etc. because the IRS has determined that such fees are exempt from taxation. There is no "fraud" if its legal.

[The Equalizer]

And it's now time for the IRS to tax the sports side of universities and for the FTC to start regulating competition. If BAMA is pulling in $1-2B per year, that is a much bigger pot of gold to go after than my airline and hotel points. There is simply no reason to maintain the tax free status of this cartel.

I don't think the "pot of gold" is there to be taxed. You're not taxed on revenue, you're taxed on profit--and very few athletic departments show a profit.

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/i-found-18-profitable-211-money-losing-ncaa-public-scott-hirko-ph-d-/

[forgetful]

And this is hyperbole. As previously discussed, college athletics drives alumni engagement, development, and recruitment. Without it, the academic missions of the universities would suffer.

I have no idea what athletes being paid by third parties has to do with a university's tax exempt status.

I'm not getting into the tax debate, because frankly, these revenues are never going to be taxed.

It is true that Universities use athletics to engage alumni, and although there are some instances that support athletics being important (usually much smaller and private Universities), there really isn't universal data showing it is a major driver of donations.

Most of the Universities with the largest endowments, and donations, do not use athletics as their engagement or donation driver.

[WhiteTrash]

They aren't paying income tax on media rights fees, etc. because the IRS has determined that such fees are exempt from taxation. There is no "fraud" if its legal.

Then the rules need to changed. These are professional sports organizations no different than the Cubs or Cowboys. This is blatantly unfair to all tax payers. 

As should be obvious to all, it doesn't matter what the revenue streams are, we are talking about income for "income tax". If the schools can prove they are running at a loss or breakeven, then no taxes. Just like every other company or organization.

[lawdog77]

Then the rules need to changed. These are professional sports organizations no different than the Cubs or Cowboys. This is blatantly unfair to all tax payers. 

As should be obvious to all, it doesn't matter what the revenue streams are, we are talking about income for "income tax". If the schools can prove they are running at a loss or breakeven, then no taxes. Just like every other company or organization.

You think tuition is bad now, wait until you tax the universities.

[WhiteTrash]

You think tuition is bad now, wait until you tax the universities.

That's how it works in the US. The universities can reign in spending on athletics or can pass the tax expense to the students. People are free to choose if they will pay the tuition or not. As long as the rules are equally applied to all, the market will sort it out.

[Coleman]

Would be great if this thread could get back on topic.

Only 4 Pac12 teams remain.

I think it is inevitable that a Mountain West merger happens under the Pac12 name. It will initially have 16 teams but I do think Stanford and Cal will get picked up by the B1G at some point.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

Then the rules need to changed. These are professional sports organizations no different than the Cubs or Cowboys. This is blatantly unfair to all tax payers.

That's fine and all, but it's not going to generate a lot of revenue for the IRS.

[dgies9156]

Would be great if this thread could get back on topic.

Only 4 Pac12 teams remain.

I think it is inevitable that a Mountain West merger happens under the Pac12 name. It will initially have 16 teams but I do think Stanford and Cal will get picked up by the B1G at some point.

Brother Coleman:

I don't think so. Cal and Stanford do nothing for the core reason of the BIG: television revenue. How many times in the next 10 years would you expect to either team, Northwestern, Missouri, Minnesota or Rutgers on the prime-time game of the week?

Cal and Stanford probably will end up in the Big 12, along with the Beavs and the Cougs.

On the larger question of athletic revenue, I can only speak to our beloved alma mater. The McGuire money collected during the salad days of our program made an incredible difference in our campus. The university did everything it could to kill our basketball program in the 1980s and geez did that make a difference both in direct revenue and in contributions.

An interesting, very old article, was written by the Milwaukee Journal (yeah, Journal back then) about the impact of the loss to Miami of Ohio in 1978. Remember, we were independent back then. The direct impact from not being a final four team (which was expected) was massive.

While do you think Father Wild revitalized the program?

[Herman Cain]

Brother Coleman:

I don't think so. Cal and Stanford do nothing for the core reason of the BIG: television revenue. How many times in the next 10 years would you expect to either team, Northwestern, Missouri, Minnesota or Rutgers on the prime-time game of the week?

Cal and Stanford probably will end up in the Big 12, along with the Beavs and the Cougs.

On the larger question of athletic revenue, I can only speak to our beloved alma mater. The McGuire money collected during the salad days of our program made an incredible difference in our campus. The university did everything it could to kill our basketball program in the 1980s and geez did that make a difference both in direct revenue and in contributions.

An interesting, very old article, was written by the Milwaukee Journal (yeah, Journal back then) about the impact of the loss to Miami of Ohio in 1978. Remember, we were independent back then. The direct impact from not being a final four team (which was expected) was massive.

While do you think Father Wild revitalized the program?

dgies9156:
Every time you bring up that Miami of Ohio game, I have PTSD from being in thr stands watching another natty go down the drain.

One silver lining in the cloud for the 4 schools left in the Pac-12 , they will inherit 7 schools worth of NCAA units . As thise get left behind.

[PJDunn]

Oregon State and Wazzu to the Mountain West

Stanford will go independent. They are arguably the best University in the world and the money to pull it off.

Cal may just have to shut down their football program They have a ton of debt and very little alumni support. The rugby program generates almost as much interest as football, and rightfully so.

IMO

[4everwarriors]

No prob. #8 can self-fund hiz alma mater's program, aina?

[MU82]

Cal and Stanford do nothing for the core reason of the BIG: television revenue.

dg: Agree about Cal, disagree about Stanford. IMHO the Former Big 10 and the Former Big 12 would both be very interested in an elite academic university that over the years has run athletics at a pretty high level. And not only is the SF metro area large, but Stanford is something of a national name.

[WhiteTrash]

dg: Agree about Cal, disagree about Stanford. IMHO the Former Big 10 and the Former Big 12 would both be very interested in an elite academic university that over the years has run athletics at a pretty high level. And not only is the SF metro area large, but Stanford is something of a national name.

I 100% agree with your thoughts on Stanford. So why the hell can they be left out? There must be something we don't understand. Attendance, viewership, arrogance?

[Coleman]

I 100% agree with your thoughts on Stanford. So why the hell can they be left out? There must be something we don't understand. Attendance, viewership, arrogance?

I don't think they will be left out. B1G is only (lol) at 18 teams....they could easily go to 20 if and when they want to. And when they do, Stanford will 100% be on that list. I think Cal will too, I know that might be a minority opinion though. It is one of the best public universities in the country and fits the B1G profile. Athletics are not as strong as most B1G schools, but it is a perfect match and well help balance out the B1G west coast presence (2 teams in SoCal, 2 teams in 2 NorCal, 2 teams in PNW)...Also big rivalries with Stanford and USC.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

Why is Stanford being left out? A few reasons.

First, this isn't yesterday's Big Ten. The idea of getting an "elite academic university" is less and less relevant.

Second, Stanford just isn't that much of a draw ratings wise.

Third, as others have pointed out, they may get in eventually.

[wadesworld]

When does the Big East add Gonzaga?

[Coleman]

When does the Big East add Gonzaga?

Should have been yesterday

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

https://twitter.com/PeteThamel/status/1688627770987794433?s=20

[MU82]

Why is Stanford being left out? A few reasons.

First, this isn't yesterday's Big Ten. The idea of getting an "elite academic university" is less and less relevant.

Second, Stanford just isn't that much of a draw ratings wise.

Third, as others have pointed out, they may get in eventually.

Yes.

Meanwhile, this from The Athletic showing that membership in the Big 18+ isn't necessarily a guarantee:

Rutgers’ time in the Big Ten has been a competitive and financial nightmare, compounded by a few salacious scandals. Entering its 10th season in the conference, the football team has gone 13-66 in league play. Meanwhile, despite astronomical increases in shared Big Ten revenue, the athletic department has racked up more than $250 million in debt, according to financial documents obtained by The Athletic and first reported by NorthJersey.com.

Adding Rutgers and Maryland was horrific for the league - especially Rutgers, which isn't even competitive in most non-football sports.