Considering Helping ND Student. Seriously.

[martyconlonontherun]

Because people are giving it to her.

I'm talking about from a moral/social stance. Just because someone can benefit from it economically doesn't mean they should be doing it. The "foregoing a professional career in Europe" kind of bothers me. If she was that good, play one year, get paid and come back with no debts, no begging for money. If she wasn't good enough to get a good salary over there, then I don't see the sacrifice. Oh you are giving up a chance to play basketball for a few years in Europe because you have to get a real job? Way to join the rest of the world.

[GGGG]

I'm talking about from a moral/social stance. Just because someone can benefit from it economically doesn't mean they should be doing it. The "foregoing a professional career in Europe" kind of bothers me. If she was that good, play one year, get paid and come back with no debts, no begging for money. If she wasn't good enough to get a good salary over there, then I don't see the sacrifice. Oh you are giving up a chance to play basketball for a few years in Europe because you have to get a real job? Way to join the rest of the world.

I don't think there is anything immoral or unethical about what she is doing.  She is being straight-forward about why she wants the money and what she will do with it.

[MerrittsMustache]

I guess it depends on your definition of small, but my wedding was 180 RSVPs and my wife knew instantly the 6 people who didn't attend and I can guarantee you she will remember 40 years from now. She wasn't even a bridezilla but some people think this is an unforgivable offense

My wedding was 10 years ago, also with about 180 guests, and my wife and I still have no idea if anyone RSVP'd but didn't show. Frankly, it wasn't even on our radar that day. To each his own.

[Benny B]

I don't think there is anything immoral or unethical about what she is doing.  She is being straight-forward about why she wants the money and what she will do with it.

Are you implying that what she's doing isn't immoral or unethical because she's being straight-forward about it?  Or are you making two mutually exclusive statements?

[GGGG]

Are you implying that what she's doing isn't immoral or unethical because she's being straight-forward about it?  Or are you making two mutually exclusive statements?

I am saying that asking people for money, as long as you are up front on what you are using it for, isn't immoral or unethical.  Assuming of course that you end up using it for what you said you were going to use it for.

I guess I just don't see people's objections with this.

[mu03eng]

Are you implying that what she's doing isn't immoral or unethical because she's being straight-forward about it?  Or are you making two mutually exclusive statements?

I'm with Sultan on this. If you say you want money to do X, people give it to you and you do X....so be it. Why is it wrong to ask someone to give you money if you are upfront about it?

If I thought I could ask people to give me money so I never have to work again more efficiently than earning money via work, I would do it.

Where it would become immoral is if she puts up an untrue sob story to get the money or uses the money for a purpose other than stated.

[Benny B]

Does anyone here find panhandling immoral?

Certainly, there's nothing wrong with asking for help, and there's nothing wrong with accepting a gift.  But I guess it depends on your definition of morality as to whether there's something wrong with panhandling.

In some cases, I see panhandling as something of a moral hazard... the fallback of just begging on the street diminishes any incentive for people to get back on their own feet.  But maybe it's not the act of panhandling so much as it is people who give to panhandlers that's the moral hazard.  Who knows.  But I don't like the concept of any system that strips one of their desire and/or ability to be independent... to me, that seems immoral.

On the other hand, there are some people who are climbing mountains every day just to break the cycle who are relegated to panhandling, not by choice, but by the basic instinct to survive.  They can't help that they need help.

What really irks me - and this isn't just some urban legend - is when perfectly capable people go out and panhandle, not because they have to but because they just want a few extra bucks.  This is money that could otherwise go to the real panhandlers who actually need help.

That's what I see here... a college-educated woman who could easily go out and earn $15,000 in a few months on her own, with nobody's help, exploiting charity that others desperately need to survive and justifying it with this guise of "full disclosure."  But honestly, I don't know who's primarily to blame here... the person unnecessarily asking for money or the people who knowingly give it to her.

[MerrittsMustache]

That's what I see here... a college-educated woman who could easily go out and earn $15,000 in a few months on her own, with nobody's help, exploiting charity that others desperately need to survive and justifying it with this guise of "full disclosure."  But honestly, I don't know who's primarily to blame here... the person unnecessarily asking for money or the people who knowingly give it to her.

You make some solid points and this is an interesting situation. I don't think that what she's doing is immoral or "wrong" and I have no real issue with her asking for money...but it's not something that I would want my children to do and it's not a fund to which I would contribute.

She could play basketball overseas for a season, come back to the US and get a job (in the UTEP athletic office if nothing else), easily pull in $50k during that time and start at ND in the fall of 2017. Instead, she's choosing to ask for donations which would provide a much lesser sum but requires basically no effort on her part. She doesn't strike me as someone whose work ethic should be questioned, but the route she's taking still strikes me as odd. Then again, she's getting free money so who am I to question it?

[mu03eng]

Does anyone here find panhandling immoral?

Certainly, there's nothing wrong with asking for help, and there's nothing wrong with accepting a gift.  But I guess it depends on your definition of morality as to whether there's something wrong with panhandling.

In some cases, I see panhandling as something of a moral hazard... the fallback of just begging on the street diminishes any incentive for people to get back on their own feet.  But maybe it's not the act of panhandling so much as it is people who give to panhandlers that's the moral hazard.  Who knows.  But I don't like the concept of any system that strips one of their desire and/or ability to be independent... to me, that seems immoral.

If it's a choice to make ones self dependent on others, is that not part of the human condition? While I agree that we've created a society that allows people to depend on others far too much that is a question of what a society values not a moral hazard per se. How do you determine someone's reliance on others is too much? If you have a physical impairment should you be allowed to receive assistance? That's taking this to an extreme but how do you determine what is acceptable dependence and what isn't?

[GGGG]

Does anyone here find panhandling immoral?

Certainly, there's nothing wrong with asking for help, and there's nothing wrong with accepting a gift.  But I guess it depends on your definition of morality as to whether there's something wrong with panhandling.

In some cases, I see panhandling as something of a moral hazard... the fallback of just begging on the street diminishes any incentive for people to get back on their own feet.  But maybe it's not the act of panhandling so much as it is people who give to panhandlers that's the moral hazard.  Who knows.  But I don't like the concept of any system that strips one of their desire and/or ability to be independent... to me, that seems immoral.

See I find this warped.  Look, I know I am just a bleeding heart, but I can't fathom a moral code that says "don't help the poor because then they won't help themselves."  I don't see panhandlers that choose panhandling because it is easier than working. 

The Bible says stuff like:

“Whoever has two tunics is to share with him who has none, and whoever has food is to do likewise.”  (Luke 3:11)

It doesn't say "Whoever has two tunics shouldn't share with him who has none because it will cause him not to work to buy a tunic for himself."

[Benny B]

See I find this warped.  Look, I know I am just a bleeding heart, but I can't fathom a moral code that says "don't help the poor because then they won't help themselves."  I don't see panhandlers that choose panhandling because it is easier than working. 

The Bible says stuff like:

“Whoever has two tunics is to share with him who has none, and whoever has food is to do likewise.”  (Luke 3:11)

It doesn't say "Whoever has two tunics shouldn't share with him who has none because it will cause him not to work to buy a tunic for himself."

What do the bible and/or your bleeding heart say about zero sum games?  Because if you bothered driving into a poor neighborhood once in a while, you'd see that there are real people who really need help out there and are unfortunately now competing for the genorosity of others with people who are simply lazy or entitled to work.

But yeah... full disclosure makes it all better, right?  Tell that to the single mother who's raising four kids in the inner city on minimum wage. 

[mu03eng]

What do the bible and/or your bleeding heart say about zero sum games?  Because if you bothered driving into a poor neighborhood once in a while, you'd see that there are real people who really need help out there and are unfortunately now competing for the genorosity of others with people who are simply lazy or entitled to work.

But yeah... full disclosure makes it all better, right?  Tell that to the single mother who's raising four kids in the inner city on minimum wage.

You are assuming panhandle dollars are directly taking from general poverty assistance funding. I really don't think they are correlated much at all.

[StillAWarrior]

On a related note...

Interesting -- to me at least -- gofundme story.  About 18 months ago, my niece's son needed to have surgery in Phoenix.  The uncovered cost of the surgery was going to be roughly $2,000.  Not a huge sum, but they simply didn't have that kind of cash.  So she started a gofundme page.  Donations were coming in from friends and family, but just before they reached the halfway point a woman in Connecticut who they did not know donated the remaining $1,125 needed.  We were all astounded -- and very grateful.  We had no idea how she heard about the page or what inspired her to donate.  My niece tracked her down and they're Facebook friends, but I never did hear the follow-up explaining her generosity.

Add me to the camp of, "there is absolutely nothing wrong with asking for money if you're open and honest about what you're going to do with it."  While I might not think that the person who inspired this thread is the best example of the benefit of this kind of fundraising, I don't have any problem with it.  I can simply choose to not support her financially, but still wish her well.

[vogue65]

Or we could pay government workers, like public defenders, more and let them pay off their student loans.
Or we could have less educated government workers and have more to complain about.
Or we could eliminate government workers and pay more for privatization.
Or we could become a third world country.
Or we could change the subject.

[mu03eng]

Or we could pay government workers, like public defenders, more and let them pay off their student loans.
Or we could have less educated government workers and have more to complain about.
Or we could eliminate government workers and pay more for privatization.
Or we could become a third world country.
Or we could change the subject.

Or we could not post in a thread when we don't have anything productive to say.

[MerrittsMustache]

You are assuming panhandle dollars are directly taking from general poverty assistance funding. I really don't think they are correlated much at all.

Exactly. I don't think anyone is "competing for generosity." If a person is willing to give 50 bucks to a college-educated woman who's trying to cover her moving expenses, I'm guessing they're not going to turn down donating to (insert your favorite charity/cause) as a result.

[brewcity77]

Personally, I'm not a fan of buying things you can't afford. This student is trying to buy an education she can't afford. Worse in my opinion is that she fully has the ability to work and make money professionally. It feels like "well I got my bachelor's paid for on scholarship, shouldn't someone else pay for my law degree too?"

I have a ton of experience with people in real need, the ones Benny described. That's pretty much my every day. I get that she's not taking money from those people, but I don't think it's a very good educational tool to create the belief that you never have to actually earn anything in life.

To each their own, I guess, but I find most gofundme requests to be crass. Certainly not all, but things like this (or my co-worker that asked for money to take his kids to Disney) just turn me off. If you have the ability and opportunity, take some responsibility and actually earn something. In the long run, you'll appreciate it a hell of a lot more.

[mu03eng]

Personally, I'm not a fan of buying things you can't afford. This student is trying to buy an education she can't afford. Worse in my opinion is that she fully has the ability to work and make money professionally. It feels like "well I got my bachelor's paid for on scholarship, shouldn't someone else pay for my law degree too?"

I have a ton of experience with people in real need, the ones Benny described. That's pretty much my every day. I get that she's not taking money from those people, but I don't think it's a very good educational tool to create the belief that you never have to actually earn anything in life.

To each their own, I guess, but I find most gofundme requests to be crass. Certainly not all, but things like this (or my co-worker that asked for money to take his kids to Disney) just turn me off. If you have the ability and opportunity, take some responsibility and actually earn something. In the long run, you'll appreciate it a hell of a lot more.

I agree with you, but I think the actual disagreement boils down to how that "lesson" is taught. There's a vein in this discussion is that they should be actively shamed while another vein is let the people vote whether this is crass or not with their dollars. I'm in the latter camp, you and Benny are in the former. No worries, just a different philosophy I guess.

Listen, I'm disappointed this person can find people to give her money for this, but I'm in no way going to question her "right" to try or call her out on it.

[Benny B]

You are assuming panhandle dollars are directly taking from general poverty assistance funding. I really don't think they are correlated much at all.

Exactly. I don't think anyone is "competing for generosity." If a person is willing to give 50 bucks to a college-educated woman who's trying to cover her moving expenses, I'm guessing they're not going to turn down donating to (insert your favorite charity/cause) as a result.

You'd be surprised... I certainly was.  While I wasn't directly involved in the day-to-day fundraising, I did work with a non-profit for nearly four years, and I sat in enough board meetings with the actual fundraisers to learn that charity is as close to a zero-sum game as it gets.

At the upper end, there are hospital fundraising executives and consultants that make more than most of the doctors (St. Jude's CEO has an annual salary of $1.3M), the American Cancer Society pays their CEO almost $900k, the CEO of the Red Cross makes over half a million.  These are great causes that should be able to rake in donations whether they're actively fundraising or not, but the truth is they hire the best - and they pay commensurate - because fundraising is a highly competitive and extremely cutthroat business....

Ask anyone on the BOD of any charity - large or small - what the golden rule of fundraising is, and every single one will tell you that unless you get in front of donors before they have given away their last $5 (or $5,000,000), history has proven that once that money is gone you're not going to see one single cent until the next cycle.

The only exception to this rule is people will expand their budget when there is an event of monumental significance such as a global catastrophe (9/11, major flood, hurricane, earthquake, etc.), a major breakthrough (e.g. finding the cure for cancer), or an "authoritative" request (e.g. someone like the POTUS or the Pope throwing their weight behind a specific campaign).

Now this isn't to say that someone who has busted their charity budget won't give one more dollar to the Salvation Army or a panhandler on Dec 24th, but when someone gives $50 to a college-educated woman to cover her expenses, you can bet that's $50 that could have gone - but now won't - to another charity/cause.

What really sucks is that unfortunately, there is not just an upward limit on donations that people will adhere to (again, whether their budget is $5 or $5M), but while people don't keep track of panhandling and other forms of de minimis giving, they don't do so unconsciously, and when they reflect later, most will have a tendency to inflate what they actually gave... and this is something of a double-whammy, because these people who might have actually given away a dollar twenty times (i.e. $20) over the course of the year may instead recall that they gave $30, $40 or more over that same year.  So not only will another charity(ies) not see that same $20 that was actually given, but if they think they gave $40, that's an additional $20 that won't even make it into the charitable money supply.  This is why actual charities (counter-intuitively) implore people to not give directly to panhandlers, because they know the reality that this artificially reduces overall charitable giving.

[brewcity77]

I agree with you, but I think the actual disagreement boils down to how that "lesson" is taught. There's a vein in this discussion is that they should be actively shamed while another vein is let the people vote whether this is crass or not with their dollars. I'm in the latter camp, you and Benny are in the former. No worries, just a different philosophy I guess.

Listen, I'm disappointed this person can find people to give her money for this, but I'm in no way going to question her "right" to try or call her out on it.

I wouldn't stand in her way to do it any more than I would a panhandler, I just think the act of begging online for something she could just as easily earn does a disservice to her. People wonder where the millennial entitlement mindset we've discussed in the other thread comes from, it's crap like this.

[mu03eng]

I wouldn't stand in her way to do it any more than I would a panhandler, I just think the act of begging online for something she could just as easily earn does a disservice to her. People wonder where the millennial entitlement mindset we've discussed in the other thread comes from, it's crap like this.

Agreed, which is why, while I will rag on them all day, we can't really blame millenials for their mentality.....we created the monster.

[brewcity77]

Agreed, which is why, while I will rag on them all day, we can't really blame millenials for their mentality.....we created the monster.

My wife and I were talking about that last night. It's easy to just blame the millennials, but that neglects their parents that raised them with those entitled values.

[GGGG]

If people don't think our generation wouldn't have done the same thing had the gofundme medium existed at the time, they are kidding themselves.

[Mug Rack]

Just gave her $100.  The ethics debate in this thread is interesting.  She's the exact opposite of a spoiled, entitled millennial.  If you read the links, you'd see that she comes from an impoverished family.  Her dad has been in prison for almost all of her life.  Her single mom is raising 10 kids in a terrible neighborhood with terrible schools.  She didn't (and her siblings still don't) have basic necessities like food.  Despite all this she was valedictorian of her high school and had a 4.0 at UTEP while starring on the basketball team.  She's worked her butt off in brutal circumstances to get where she is, and has none of the stereotypical millennial support from parents / family.  I think it's great that she's getting support.

[Herman Cain]

See the attached for an amazing story about an incredible hoops player from UTEP.  Some people at my firm are mentoring her and have only great things to say.  (One of the pictures at the link was taken on the roof of my office building.)

https://www.gofundme.com/supportcameasha

This is an attractive young woman who is used to manipulating guys to pay for her.  The technology today makes it even easier.

I was homeless at one point in my life and unloaded freight trains etc to work my way up. I never asked for a dime from anyone.

Borrow the money like everyone else and grow up.