Considering Helping ND Student. Seriously.

[Mug Rack]

See the attached for an amazing story about an incredible hoops player from UTEP.  Some people at my firm are mentoring her and have only great things to say.  (One of the pictures at the link was taken on the roof of my office building.)

https://www.gofundme.com/supportcameasha

[Benny B]

I'm going to be paying upwards of $1000/month for my wife's law school debt - which, as I understand, was mostly incurred as a result of "personal expenses" - for another 28 years and this one wants a handout?

Guess what... you want to be a public defender, then you're in the perfect situation. Take out a bunch of Direct Loans and the govt will forgive them after 10 years of public defense work.

[real chili 83]

I'm going to be paying upwards of $1000/month for my wife's law school debt - which, as I understand, was mostly incurred as a result of "personal expenses" - for another 28 years and this one wants a handout?

Guess what... you want to be a public defender, then you're in the perfect situation. Take out a bunch of Direct Loans and the govt will forgive them after 10 years of public defense work.

Couldn't agree more.  Great story on how she got here.  I got three in college and no one is paying our loans but us. 

Take out a loan, and pay it back.  That's what the rest of us do. 

[MUsoxfan]

I hate this new trend of Internet panhandling.

I've only given to one cause...a 3-legged dog that almost became a 2-legged dog. There is no more worthy cause

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Guess what... you want to be a public defender, then you're in the perfect situation. Take out a bunch of Direct Loans and the govt will forgive them after 10 years of public defense work.

Yep. My fiance and I are currently banking on this program. Of course it could get cut at any time.

[mu03eng]

Yep. My fiance and I are currently banking on this program. Of course it could get cut at any time.

I'm fascinated by this program. My wife is in line to have her loans forgiven next year as a result of it. Not that I can't find plenty to do with the money that will be freed up but we would seem to be about the last people that need to benefit from a free government program like that. I'd be curious to see what bracket benefits the most from this.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

I'm fascinated by this program. My wife is in line to have her loans forgiven next year as a result of it. Not that I can't find plenty to do with the money that will be freed up but we would seem to be about the last people that need to benefit from a free government program like that. I'd be curious to see what bracket benefits the most from this.

I would say that there are plenty from all brackets who benefit. I would guess that there are more jobs that qualify in lower brackets but I would also guess that a lot of those jobs don't require college degrees and they're is probably more ignorance of the program.

[mu03eng]

I would say that there are plenty from all brackets who benefit. I would guess that there are more jobs that qualify in lower brackets but I would also guess that a lot of those jobs don't require college degrees and they're is probably more ignorance of the program.

I guess I don't track what you're saying....how would the program impact anyone that didn't have a college degree?

I do agree that I think there are probably a fair number of people that don't know about the program.

[4everwarriors]

Life's a bitch, ai na? Reminds me of da weddin' invite I got from a High school classmate some years back. It read "gifts accepted, money preferred."
All in all, I'll bet folks are gonna have mercy on her ass and throw a chit load of bread her way, hey?

[GGGG]

She's already raised $7,500.  More power to her.

[wadesworld]

Life's a bitch, ai na? Reminds me of da weddin' invite I got from a High school classmate some years back. It read "gifts accepted, money preferred."
All in all, I'll bet folks are gonna have mercy on her ass and throw a chit load of bread her way, hey?

Funny you bring up weddings and money.  I heard a story from a coworker where she responded that she would be attending the wedding and had a family issue come up that caused her to miss the wedding.  She received an invoice in the mail for the dinner cost.  Crazy.

[MerrittsMustache]

Funny you bring up weddings and money.  I heard a story from a coworker where she responded that she would be attending the wedding and had a family issue come up that caused her to miss the wedding.  She received an invoice in the mail for the dinner cost.  Crazy.

I've heard stories like that before and find them somewhat hard to believe. Unless it's a really small reception, the bride and groom likely wouldn't even know who RSVP'd yes but didn't show.

That said, the best person to invite to a wedding is one who will RSVP "No." They'll send a gift but you won't have to pay for their meal. Win-win!

[MerrittsMustache]

She's already raised $7,500.  More power to her.

Agreed. My initial thought was that she has a nice story but she needs to deal with her costs and loans just like anyone else...then I realized that if she asks for money and people give it to her, who am I to tell her not to take it? Maybe the rest of us have just been doing it wrong!

[wadesworld]

I've heard stories like that before and find them somewhat hard to believe. Unless it's a really small reception, the bride and groom likely wouldn't even know who RSVP'd yes but didn't show.

That said, the best person to invite to a wedding is one who will RSVP "No." They'll send a gift but you won't have to pay for their meal. Win-win!

I couldn't believe it either.  But that's a good point on inviting the people you know will not be able to attend. 

[mu03eng]

Agreed. My initial thought was that she has a nice story but she needs to deal with her costs and loans just like anyone else...then I realized that if she asks for money and people give it to her, who am I to tell her not to take it? Maybe the rest of us have just been doing it wrong!

It's a solid point, maybe we're the suckers because we have tried to virtually panhandle our way out of debt.


There was meant to be a minimal amount of snark in that statement.

[Benny B]

I'm fascinated by this program. My wife is in line to have her loans forgiven next year as a result of it. Not that I can't find plenty to do with the money that will be freed up but we would seem to be about the last people that need to benefit from a free government program like that. I'd be curious to see what bracket benefits the most from this.

Unless married to a spouse is making over $100k, we're probably talking the 25% bracket in the vast majority of cases.  The "public interest lawyers" who are the target beneficiary of the program typically make in the neighborhood of $50,000-60,000 in urban areas and $30,000-50,000 in rural areas.  Some may make a little more or less, but we're definitely not talking about private-practice attorneys who are doing a little pro bono on the side.

Also, keep in mind if you're graduating in the top 10% of your class from Notre Dame, you're not going into public defense.  If this cat is as intelligent and persistent as her record indicates, there's absolutely no way she's going to spurn an offer from Sidley Austin or Baker & McKenzie to make $175-190k/year to shuffle around jails and courthouses to make as much as a McDonald's store manager.

[mu03eng]

Unless married to a spouse is making over $100k, we're probably talking the 25% bracket in the vast majority of cases.  The "public interest lawyers" who are the target beneficiary of the program typically make in the neighborhood of $50,000-60,000 in urban areas and $30,000-50,000 in rural areas.  Some may make a little more or less, but we're definitely not talking about private-practice attorneys who are doing a little pro bono on the side.

Right, but the program applies to more than just lawyers, if you work at a non-profit health care provider full time you qualify for loan forgiveness including doctors who could easily be making $200k depending on their speciality. Yes they've likely taken on a lot of debt to get to that point, but presumably means they have the ability to repay the loans.

Further, there is a clause in the program that requires you both work full time AND have made continuous payments on your debt for 10 years. Those most likely to need the program are the most likely to not qualify for the program.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

I guess I don't track what you're saying....how would the program impact anyone that didn't have a college degree?

I do agree that I think there are probably a fair number of people that don't know about the program.

My basic point was that many jobs that qualify for the program don't require a college degree. For example, the janitorial staff at a public university qualify for this program (assuming they aren't a third party contractor). Most of them probably don't have college loan debt. But if I decided to become one, I would still qualify for the program.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Right, but the program applies to more than just lawyers, if you work at a non-profit health care provider full time you qualify for loan forgiveness including doctors who could easily be making $200k depending on their speciality. Yes they've likely taken on a lot of debt to get to that point, but presumably means they have the ability to repay the loans.

Further, there is a clause in the program that requires you both work full time AND have made continuous payments on your debt for 10 years. Those most likely to need the program are the most likely to not qualify for the program.

University administrators also qualify and we message a lot less than layers and doctors. I believe public school teachers can also apply

[ZiggysFryBoy]

I hate this new trend of Internet panhandling.

I've only given to one cause...a 3-legged dog that almost became a 2-legged dog. There is no more worthy cause

Dog named sparky?

[Benny B]

Right, but the program applies to more than just lawyers, if you work at a non-profit health care provider full time you qualify for loan forgiveness including doctors who could easily be making $200k depending on their speciality. Yes they've likely taken on a lot of debt to get to that point, but presumably means they have the ability to repay the loans.

Further, there is a clause in the program that requires you both work full time AND have made continuous payments on your debt for 10 years. Those most likely to need the program are the most likely to not qualify for the program.

I think we're talking about different programs, but the concept is the same.  I had thought there may be an income cap on the public interest law forgiveness but not 100% sure... I can't speak to any other loan-forgiveness programs out there.  You may be right in that there could be doctors making six figures taking loan forgiveness.... if there are any public interest attorneys out there making six figures, they're most likely anomalies.

[PBRme]

Could someone explain why there is program to forgive loans (or even grant loans in the first place) for people graduating from programs that too many people are graduating from to begin with? 

[Benny B]

Could someone explain why there is program to forgive loans (or even grant loans in the first place) for people graduating from programs that too many people are graduating from to begin with?

Because certain "public interest/welfare" jobs - particularly those of state or local gov'ts (though not always) - are severely under-served.  For example, prosecutors, public defenders, nurses, social workers, etc. are in very high demand in some areas, mostly because of either a) geography (i.e. extremely rural areas) and/or b) competition within the job sector (e.g. gov't nurses & attorneys can make as little as 25% of their counterparts in the private sector).

The loan forgiveness programs are meant to attract those people who want to be public servants who otherwise couldn't afford to due to student debt.  It's not meant to be an incentive program for those who work in certain professions (i.e. to attract more people to the profession), and they're typically not available unless you have Direct Loans (i.e. Federally-backed loans; those with "private" student loans are not eligible).

[martyconlonontherun]

I've heard stories like that before and find them somewhat hard to believe. Unless it's a really small reception, the bride and groom likely wouldn't even know who RSVP'd yes but didn't show.

That said, the best person to invite to a wedding is one who will RSVP "No." They'll send a gift but you won't have to pay for their meal. Win-win!

I guess it depends on your definition of small, but my wedding was 180 RSVPs and my wife knew instantly the 6 people who didn't attend and I can guarantee you she will remember 40 years from now. She wasn't even a bridezilla but some people think this is an unforgivable offense

Unless married to a spouse is making over $100k, we're probably talking the 25% bracket in the vast majority of cases.  The "public interest lawyers" who are the target beneficiary of the program typically make in the neighborhood of $50,000-60,000 in urban areas and $30,000-50,000 in rural areas.  Some may make a little more or less, but we're definitely not talking about private-practice attorneys who are doing a little pro bono on the side.

Also, keep in mind if you're graduating in the top 10% of your class from Notre Dame, you're not going into public defense.  If this cat is as intelligent and persistent as her record indicates, there's absolutely no way she's going to spurn an offer from Sidley Austin or Baker & McKenzie to make $175-190k/year to shuffle around jails and courthouses to make as much as a McDonald's store manager.

And if that's the case, why is she asking for money. Pay it off in the first year.

[GGGG]

And if that's the case, why is she asking for money. Pay it off in the first year.

Because people are giving it to her.

[martyconlonontherun]

Because people are giving it to her.

I'm talking about from a moral/social stance. Just because someone can benefit from it economically doesn't mean they should be doing it. The "foregoing a professional career in Europe" kind of bothers me. If she was that good, play one year, get paid and come back with no debts, no begging for money. If she wasn't good enough to get a good salary over there, then I don't see the sacrifice. Oh you are giving up a chance to play basketball for a few years in Europe because you have to get a real job? Way to join the rest of the world.

[GGGG]

I'm talking about from a moral/social stance. Just because someone can benefit from it economically doesn't mean they should be doing it. The "foregoing a professional career in Europe" kind of bothers me. If she was that good, play one year, get paid and come back with no debts, no begging for money. If she wasn't good enough to get a good salary over there, then I don't see the sacrifice. Oh you are giving up a chance to play basketball for a few years in Europe because you have to get a real job? Way to join the rest of the world.

I don't think there is anything immoral or unethical about what she is doing.  She is being straight-forward about why she wants the money and what she will do with it.

[MerrittsMustache]

I guess it depends on your definition of small, but my wedding was 180 RSVPs and my wife knew instantly the 6 people who didn't attend and I can guarantee you she will remember 40 years from now. She wasn't even a bridezilla but some people think this is an unforgivable offense

My wedding was 10 years ago, also with about 180 guests, and my wife and I still have no idea if anyone RSVP'd but didn't show. Frankly, it wasn't even on our radar that day. To each his own.

[Benny B]

I don't think there is anything immoral or unethical about what she is doing.  She is being straight-forward about why she wants the money and what she will do with it.

Are you implying that what she's doing isn't immoral or unethical because she's being straight-forward about it?  Or are you making two mutually exclusive statements?

[GGGG]

Are you implying that what she's doing isn't immoral or unethical because she's being straight-forward about it?  Or are you making two mutually exclusive statements?

I am saying that asking people for money, as long as you are up front on what you are using it for, isn't immoral or unethical.  Assuming of course that you end up using it for what you said you were going to use it for.

I guess I just don't see people's objections with this.

[mu03eng]

Are you implying that what she's doing isn't immoral or unethical because she's being straight-forward about it?  Or are you making two mutually exclusive statements?

I'm with Sultan on this. If you say you want money to do X, people give it to you and you do X....so be it. Why is it wrong to ask someone to give you money if you are upfront about it?

If I thought I could ask people to give me money so I never have to work again more efficiently than earning money via work, I would do it.

Where it would become immoral is if she puts up an untrue sob story to get the money or uses the money for a purpose other than stated.

[Benny B]

Does anyone here find panhandling immoral?

Certainly, there's nothing wrong with asking for help, and there's nothing wrong with accepting a gift.  But I guess it depends on your definition of morality as to whether there's something wrong with panhandling.

In some cases, I see panhandling as something of a moral hazard... the fallback of just begging on the street diminishes any incentive for people to get back on their own feet.  But maybe it's not the act of panhandling so much as it is people who give to panhandlers that's the moral hazard.  Who knows.  But I don't like the concept of any system that strips one of their desire and/or ability to be independent... to me, that seems immoral.

On the other hand, there are some people who are climbing mountains every day just to break the cycle who are relegated to panhandling, not by choice, but by the basic instinct to survive.  They can't help that they need help.

What really irks me - and this isn't just some urban legend - is when perfectly capable people go out and panhandle, not because they have to but because they just want a few extra bucks.  This is money that could otherwise go to the real panhandlers who actually need help.

That's what I see here... a college-educated woman who could easily go out and earn $15,000 in a few months on her own, with nobody's help, exploiting charity that others desperately need to survive and justifying it with this guise of "full disclosure."  But honestly, I don't know who's primarily to blame here... the person unnecessarily asking for money or the people who knowingly give it to her.

[MerrittsMustache]

That's what I see here... a college-educated woman who could easily go out and earn $15,000 in a few months on her own, with nobody's help, exploiting charity that others desperately need to survive and justifying it with this guise of "full disclosure."  But honestly, I don't know who's primarily to blame here... the person unnecessarily asking for money or the people who knowingly give it to her.

You make some solid points and this is an interesting situation. I don't think that what she's doing is immoral or "wrong" and I have no real issue with her asking for money...but it's not something that I would want my children to do and it's not a fund to which I would contribute.

She could play basketball overseas for a season, come back to the US and get a job (in the UTEP athletic office if nothing else), easily pull in $50k during that time and start at ND in the fall of 2017. Instead, she's choosing to ask for donations which would provide a much lesser sum but requires basically no effort on her part. She doesn't strike me as someone whose work ethic should be questioned, but the route she's taking still strikes me as odd. Then again, she's getting free money so who am I to question it?

[mu03eng]

Does anyone here find panhandling immoral?

Certainly, there's nothing wrong with asking for help, and there's nothing wrong with accepting a gift.  But I guess it depends on your definition of morality as to whether there's something wrong with panhandling.

In some cases, I see panhandling as something of a moral hazard... the fallback of just begging on the street diminishes any incentive for people to get back on their own feet.  But maybe it's not the act of panhandling so much as it is people who give to panhandlers that's the moral hazard.  Who knows.  But I don't like the concept of any system that strips one of their desire and/or ability to be independent... to me, that seems immoral.

If it's a choice to make ones self dependent on others, is that not part of the human condition? While I agree that we've created a society that allows people to depend on others far too much that is a question of what a society values not a moral hazard per se. How do you determine someone's reliance on others is too much? If you have a physical impairment should you be allowed to receive assistance? That's taking this to an extreme but how do you determine what is acceptable dependence and what isn't?

[GGGG]

Does anyone here find panhandling immoral?

Certainly, there's nothing wrong with asking for help, and there's nothing wrong with accepting a gift.  But I guess it depends on your definition of morality as to whether there's something wrong with panhandling.

In some cases, I see panhandling as something of a moral hazard... the fallback of just begging on the street diminishes any incentive for people to get back on their own feet.  But maybe it's not the act of panhandling so much as it is people who give to panhandlers that's the moral hazard.  Who knows.  But I don't like the concept of any system that strips one of their desire and/or ability to be independent... to me, that seems immoral.

See I find this warped.  Look, I know I am just a bleeding heart, but I can't fathom a moral code that says "don't help the poor because then they won't help themselves."  I don't see panhandlers that choose panhandling because it is easier than working. 

The Bible says stuff like:

“Whoever has two tunics is to share with him who has none, and whoever has food is to do likewise.”  (Luke 3:11)

It doesn't say "Whoever has two tunics shouldn't share with him who has none because it will cause him not to work to buy a tunic for himself."

[Benny B]

See I find this warped.  Look, I know I am just a bleeding heart, but I can't fathom a moral code that says "don't help the poor because then they won't help themselves."  I don't see panhandlers that choose panhandling because it is easier than working. 

The Bible says stuff like:

“Whoever has two tunics is to share with him who has none, and whoever has food is to do likewise.”  (Luke 3:11)

It doesn't say "Whoever has two tunics shouldn't share with him who has none because it will cause him not to work to buy a tunic for himself."

What do the bible and/or your bleeding heart say about zero sum games?  Because if you bothered driving into a poor neighborhood once in a while, you'd see that there are real people who really need help out there and are unfortunately now competing for the genorosity of others with people who are simply lazy or entitled to work.

But yeah... full disclosure makes it all better, right?  Tell that to the single mother who's raising four kids in the inner city on minimum wage. 

[mu03eng]

What do the bible and/or your bleeding heart say about zero sum games?  Because if you bothered driving into a poor neighborhood once in a while, you'd see that there are real people who really need help out there and are unfortunately now competing for the genorosity of others with people who are simply lazy or entitled to work.

But yeah... full disclosure makes it all better, right?  Tell that to the single mother who's raising four kids in the inner city on minimum wage.

You are assuming panhandle dollars are directly taking from general poverty assistance funding. I really don't think they are correlated much at all.

[StillAWarrior]

On a related note...

Interesting -- to me at least -- gofundme story.  About 18 months ago, my niece's son needed to have surgery in Phoenix.  The uncovered cost of the surgery was going to be roughly $2,000.  Not a huge sum, but they simply didn't have that kind of cash.  So she started a gofundme page.  Donations were coming in from friends and family, but just before they reached the halfway point a woman in Connecticut who they did not know donated the remaining $1,125 needed.  We were all astounded -- and very grateful.  We had no idea how she heard about the page or what inspired her to donate.  My niece tracked her down and they're Facebook friends, but I never did hear the follow-up explaining her generosity.

Add me to the camp of, "there is absolutely nothing wrong with asking for money if you're open and honest about what you're going to do with it."  While I might not think that the person who inspired this thread is the best example of the benefit of this kind of fundraising, I don't have any problem with it.  I can simply choose to not support her financially, but still wish her well.

[vogue65]

Or we could pay government workers, like public defenders, more and let them pay off their student loans.
Or we could have less educated government workers and have more to complain about.
Or we could eliminate government workers and pay more for privatization.
Or we could become a third world country.
Or we could change the subject.

[mu03eng]

Or we could pay government workers, like public defenders, more and let them pay off their student loans.
Or we could have less educated government workers and have more to complain about.
Or we could eliminate government workers and pay more for privatization.
Or we could become a third world country.
Or we could change the subject.

Or we could not post in a thread when we don't have anything productive to say.

[MerrittsMustache]

You are assuming panhandle dollars are directly taking from general poverty assistance funding. I really don't think they are correlated much at all.

Exactly. I don't think anyone is "competing for generosity." If a person is willing to give 50 bucks to a college-educated woman who's trying to cover her moving expenses, I'm guessing they're not going to turn down donating to (insert your favorite charity/cause) as a result.

[brewcity77]

Personally, I'm not a fan of buying things you can't afford. This student is trying to buy an education she can't afford. Worse in my opinion is that she fully has the ability to work and make money professionally. It feels like "well I got my bachelor's paid for on scholarship, shouldn't someone else pay for my law degree too?"

I have a ton of experience with people in real need, the ones Benny described. That's pretty much my every day. I get that she's not taking money from those people, but I don't think it's a very good educational tool to create the belief that you never have to actually earn anything in life.

To each their own, I guess, but I find most gofundme requests to be crass. Certainly not all, but things like this (or my co-worker that asked for money to take his kids to Disney) just turn me off. If you have the ability and opportunity, take some responsibility and actually earn something. In the long run, you'll appreciate it a hell of a lot more.

[mu03eng]

Personally, I'm not a fan of buying things you can't afford. This student is trying to buy an education she can't afford. Worse in my opinion is that she fully has the ability to work and make money professionally. It feels like "well I got my bachelor's paid for on scholarship, shouldn't someone else pay for my law degree too?"

I have a ton of experience with people in real need, the ones Benny described. That's pretty much my every day. I get that she's not taking money from those people, but I don't think it's a very good educational tool to create the belief that you never have to actually earn anything in life.

To each their own, I guess, but I find most gofundme requests to be crass. Certainly not all, but things like this (or my co-worker that asked for money to take his kids to Disney) just turn me off. If you have the ability and opportunity, take some responsibility and actually earn something. In the long run, you'll appreciate it a hell of a lot more.

I agree with you, but I think the actual disagreement boils down to how that "lesson" is taught. There's a vein in this discussion is that they should be actively shamed while another vein is let the people vote whether this is crass or not with their dollars. I'm in the latter camp, you and Benny are in the former. No worries, just a different philosophy I guess.

Listen, I'm disappointed this person can find people to give her money for this, but I'm in no way going to question her "right" to try or call her out on it.

[Benny B]

You are assuming panhandle dollars are directly taking from general poverty assistance funding. I really don't think they are correlated much at all.

Exactly. I don't think anyone is "competing for generosity." If a person is willing to give 50 bucks to a college-educated woman who's trying to cover her moving expenses, I'm guessing they're not going to turn down donating to (insert your favorite charity/cause) as a result.

You'd be surprised... I certainly was.  While I wasn't directly involved in the day-to-day fundraising, I did work with a non-profit for nearly four years, and I sat in enough board meetings with the actual fundraisers to learn that charity is as close to a zero-sum game as it gets.

At the upper end, there are hospital fundraising executives and consultants that make more than most of the doctors (St. Jude's CEO has an annual salary of $1.3M), the American Cancer Society pays their CEO almost $900k, the CEO of the Red Cross makes over half a million.  These are great causes that should be able to rake in donations whether they're actively fundraising or not, but the truth is they hire the best - and they pay commensurate - because fundraising is a highly competitive and extremely cutthroat business....

Ask anyone on the BOD of any charity - large or small - what the golden rule of fundraising is, and every single one will tell you that unless you get in front of donors before they have given away their last $5 (or $5,000,000), history has proven that once that money is gone you're not going to see one single cent until the next cycle.

The only exception to this rule is people will expand their budget when there is an event of monumental significance such as a global catastrophe (9/11, major flood, hurricane, earthquake, etc.), a major breakthrough (e.g. finding the cure for cancer), or an "authoritative" request (e.g. someone like the POTUS or the Pope throwing their weight behind a specific campaign).

Now this isn't to say that someone who has busted their charity budget won't give one more dollar to the Salvation Army or a panhandler on Dec 24th, but when someone gives $50 to a college-educated woman to cover her expenses, you can bet that's $50 that could have gone - but now won't - to another charity/cause.

What really sucks is that unfortunately, there is not just an upward limit on donations that people will adhere to (again, whether their budget is $5 or $5M), but while people don't keep track of panhandling and other forms of de minimis giving, they don't do so unconsciously, and when they reflect later, most will have a tendency to inflate what they actually gave... and this is something of a double-whammy, because these people who might have actually given away a dollar twenty times (i.e. $20) over the course of the year may instead recall that they gave $30, $40 or more over that same year.  So not only will another charity(ies) not see that same $20 that was actually given, but if they think they gave $40, that's an additional $20 that won't even make it into the charitable money supply.  This is why actual charities (counter-intuitively) implore people to not give directly to panhandlers, because they know the reality that this artificially reduces overall charitable giving.

[brewcity77]

I agree with you, but I think the actual disagreement boils down to how that "lesson" is taught. There's a vein in this discussion is that they should be actively shamed while another vein is let the people vote whether this is crass or not with their dollars. I'm in the latter camp, you and Benny are in the former. No worries, just a different philosophy I guess.

Listen, I'm disappointed this person can find people to give her money for this, but I'm in no way going to question her "right" to try or call her out on it.

I wouldn't stand in her way to do it any more than I would a panhandler, I just think the act of begging online for something she could just as easily earn does a disservice to her. People wonder where the millennial entitlement mindset we've discussed in the other thread comes from, it's crap like this.

[mu03eng]

I wouldn't stand in her way to do it any more than I would a panhandler, I just think the act of begging online for something she could just as easily earn does a disservice to her. People wonder where the millennial entitlement mindset we've discussed in the other thread comes from, it's crap like this.

Agreed, which is why, while I will rag on them all day, we can't really blame millenials for their mentality.....we created the monster.

[brewcity77]

Agreed, which is why, while I will rag on them all day, we can't really blame millenials for their mentality.....we created the monster.

My wife and I were talking about that last night. It's easy to just blame the millennials, but that neglects their parents that raised them with those entitled values.

[GGGG]

If people don't think our generation wouldn't have done the same thing had the gofundme medium existed at the time, they are kidding themselves.

[Mug Rack]

Just gave her $100.  The ethics debate in this thread is interesting.  She's the exact opposite of a spoiled, entitled millennial.  If you read the links, you'd see that she comes from an impoverished family.  Her dad has been in prison for almost all of her life.  Her single mom is raising 10 kids in a terrible neighborhood with terrible schools.  She didn't (and her siblings still don't) have basic necessities like food.  Despite all this she was valedictorian of her high school and had a 4.0 at UTEP while starring on the basketball team.  She's worked her butt off in brutal circumstances to get where she is, and has none of the stereotypical millennial support from parents / family.  I think it's great that she's getting support.

[Herman Cain]

See the attached for an amazing story about an incredible hoops player from UTEP.  Some people at my firm are mentoring her and have only great things to say.  (One of the pictures at the link was taken on the roof of my office building.)

https://www.gofundme.com/supportcameasha

This is an attractive young woman who is used to manipulating guys to pay for her.  The technology today makes it even easier.

I was homeless at one point in my life and unloaded freight trains etc to work my way up. I never asked for a dime from anyone.

Borrow the money like everyone else and grow up.

[GGGG]

This is an attractive young woman who is used to manipulating guys to pay for her.

That's a pretty stupid statement given her background and how she went to school.

[Herman Cain]

That's a pretty stupid statement given her background and how she went to school.

http://americansportsnet.com/uteps-cameasha-turner-basketball-saved-my-life/

[real chili 83]

A ghetto kid who has figured out how to manipulate the system.
 
http://americansportsnet.com/uteps-cameasha-turner-basketball-saved-my-life/

Good for her.

That's just a weee out of bounds.

You know you must be wrong when I take the side of a stinking Domer on an issue.

[real chili 83]

ND sucks

[brewcity77]

If people don't think our generation wouldn't have done the same thing had the gofundme medium existed at the time, they are kidding themselves.

I'm a big fan of socializing things. Personally, I think college should be free and completely subsidized by the government. I feel our system has stifled the education of millions and fostered the debt of millions more.

However, 99% of people still have to function in that system. If people want to protest it, I'll hold a sign. Raise money to change the system? I'll donate. Propose a law to enhance the greater good, you have my vote. But when a perfectly able individual spurns job opportunities and instead tries to exploit the public rather than playing by the same rules everyone else has to adhere to, I just can't be sympathetic.

Maybe it's just that I hate the gofundme fad, maybe it's that I have more respect for people actually earning what they have. Would I have turned down the money? I'm sure not. But I also would never have asked for it in the first place.

[brewcity77]

And the entirety of circumstances matters to me. She refused a job in Europe that could have paid this tuition. She could elect for a public defender gig that would pay her tuition. And I'm sure if she took loans, it would be far less than the average student and her wages as a defense lawyer would allow her to pay back those loans.

I may be a bleeding heart liberal, but this isn't someone I'd waste a cent on. Clearly others choose to give her handouts. That's their prerogative, but in the long run I think it's dumb on their part and will hurt her more than it helps.

[4everwarriors]

I'm a refugee from Alabama, myself, hey?

[Herman Cain]

That's just a weee out of bounds.

You know you must be wrong when I take the side of a stinking Domer on an issue.

Noted and Modified.

[Herman Cain]

And the entirety of circumstances matters to me. She refused a job in Europe that could have paid this tuition. She could elect for a public defender gig that would pay her tuition. And I'm sure if she took loans, it would be far less than the average student and her wages as a defense lawyer would allow her to pay back those loans.

I may be a bleeding heart liberal, but this isn't someone I'd waste a cent on. Clearly others choose to give her handouts. That's their prerogative, but in the long run I think it's dumb on their part and will hurt her more than it helps.

The very last point you make is excellent. This will definitely hurt her more than it will help.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

I'm a big fan of socializing things. Personally, I think college should be free and completely subsidized by the government.

Dear god no. Please no. I get paid little enough as it is and I should have a staff of 10 but only have 3. Colleges would be a shell of themselves if they were socialized.

[mu03eng]

The very last point you make is excellent. This will definitely hurt her more than it will help.

Agreed, but why do we feel we need to save her from herself?

[vogue65]

This is an attractive young woman who is used to manipulating guys to pay for her.  The technology today makes it even easier.

I was homeless at one point in my life and unloaded freight trains etc to work my way up. I never asked for a dime from anyone.

Borrow the money like everyone else and grow up.

And owe your soul to the company store.
Love it how we promote debt, when it is somebody elses, and when the banks cane make a buck.
When the money is washed through the Red Cross, the Salvation Army or the church our charity is acceptable, but when it is direct to charity it is suspect.

And, by the way, this is a ridiculous topic.