Marquette University adopts vision to raise its profile

[Tugg Speedman]

Why do you think they "matter a lot?"

MU is considered a national university.  So to attract kids outside its region (however you define "region" for MU), it needs to keep its academic profile as high as possible.  USN ranking are very important in forming this reputation.

As an example, significantly drop Case Western Reserve's USN ranking when the update comes this year.  Let's see if it "matters."

[1990Warrior]

Raising the USN ranking is a stated goal of this vision.

USN ranking are like BCS football rankings.  They are flawed, biased and inaccurate.  But they matter, and they matter a lot.  That is the world we live in.

OK, if that is the goal, then we need to understand why Alabama is ranked ahead of us.  I have no idea.  If it is because of some weird flaw, bias, or inaccuracy, are we really going to try to overcome that?

They used to publish the schools endowments along side of the rankings, but did not this year.  I think that you would find correlation, and, actually, I have thought that MUs endowment has been way too low for way to long.  So I have no problem with them wanting to increase the endowment since that can lead to better things on the academic side.

One thing that was of interest to me was their interest in increasing research.  I am a researcher and can perhaps add some insight here.  Many of the schools in the top 50 are major research universities.  One thing that this means is that many of the faculty in the basic science departments are given contracts that require little to no teaching of the undergrads; their job is to publish significant research and to attract NIH or NSF funding.  At MU, I suspect that the contacts are about 50/50 undergrad teaching/research.  I would consider this a major advantage for an undergrad at MU.  The will be members of the National Academy of Sciences at the Research institutions, but if they never contact the undergrads, what does it matter.   

A final point that I would like to make is increasing research is a noble goal, but you had better be prepared to spend big bucks to do so: NIH funding is so ridiculous these days that many excellent scientists are or will be unemployed soon.  It is therefore a great time to recruit these faculty, but you better have BIG bucks to support their research.

[GGGG]

MU is considered a national university.  So to attract kids outside its region (however you define "region" for MU), it needs to keep its academic profile as high as possible.  USN ranking are very important in forming this reputation.

As an example, significantly drop Case Western Reserve's USN ranking when the update comes this year.  Let's see if it "matters."

I think MU should base its reputation on things other than garbage-in, garbage-out USN&WR rankings.

[Tugg Speedman]

OK, if that is the goal, then we need to understand why Alabama is ranked ahead of us.  I have no idea.  If it is because of some weird flaw, bias, or inaccuracy, are we really going to try to overcome that?

Is Alabama ranked ahead of us?

Six schools are tied at #77
American University
Baylor
Colorado School of Mines
SUNY College of Environmental Science and Forestry
Alabama
University of California--Santa Cruz

Then six schools are tied at 83
Drexel University
Indiana University--Bloomington
Marquette University
University of Denver
University of Tulsa

Their might be not statistical different between these 12 schools.  If MU were to try, just try (which until now, they apparently did not), they could probably move out of the 83 category, leapfrog the 77 category to to the 75 category, which includes:

Stevens Institute of Technology
University of Delaware

or to the 72 category:
Michigan State University
University of Iowa
Virginia Tech

http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/rankings/national-universities/spp%2B50/page+2

[warriorchick]

I think MU should base its reputation on things other than garbage-in, garbage-out USN&WR rankings.

Perhaps part of the strategy for raising our USN ranking might be to join with other like-minded institutions to convince USN to use more relevant criteria.  Besides 1990's excellent point about research, another criterion they use is the percentage of alumni who contribute to the school.  While I think we can all agree that it is important for alumni to contribute, it is way too heavily weighted in the USN rankings, and I'm not sure a direct correlation to school quality has been proven.

[1990Warrior]

Their might be not statistical different between these 12 schools.  If MU were to try, just try (which until now, they apparently did not), they could probably move out of the 83 category, leapfrog the 77 category to to the 75 category, which includes:

1) Statistical difference in what metric?  SAT scores, class size?

2) I thought MU was 1) playing up their USN ranking and 2) a little obsessed with increasing it for a number of years now.

[Tugg Speedman]

I think MU should base its reputation on things other than garbage-in, garbage-out USN&WR rankings.

They do base their reputation on other things, but the USN ranking is one of the things.

When Buzz says he does not care about our AP ranking during the season, do you believe him?  When posters here say they do not care about our AP ranking, do you believe them?  When posters here say our AP ranking helps with recruiting, are they wrong?

Is not USN ranking the same?

(For the record, I do not like them anymore than you.  Instead I accepted that is the world we live in and will play the game)

[Tugg Speedman]

2) I thought MU was 1) playing up their USN ranking and 2) a little obsessed with increasing it for a number of years now.

If that is the case, then why would the BOT approve a plan to raise its rankings when they were already trying to do that?  You don't approve things you are already doing.  So, it took this to be a new initiative.

Having kids applying to colleges right now I can tell you EVERY school plays up their USN ranking the same as MU (save the top 5 or 10 schools in the nation, because they do not have to).  MU is no more obsessed with their ranking than anyone else.

[GGGG]

They do base their reputation on other things, but the USN ranking is one of the things.

When Buzz says he does not care about our AP ranking during the season, do you believe him?  When posters here say they do not care about our AP ranking, do you believe them?  When posters here say our AP ranking helps with recruiting, are they wrong?

Is not USN ranking the same?

They are equally irrelevant.  I pay attention to neither.

[Tugg Speedman]

For the record, here are MU's USN 2013 US News and World Report Rankings

College of Arts & Sciences
Biological sciences at Marquette ranked as 181st overall
Chemistry program was 140th.
Clinical psychology ranked 79th
Psychology ranked 158th
English ranked 98th
History was 110th.

College of Business Administration and the Graduate School of Management
Marquette's undergraduate program ranked 77th in BusinessWeek's 2013 rankings.
Marquette's undergraduate majors in supply chain management as 16th
Finance as 17th
Accounting as 23rd
Entrepreneurship program as 24th nationwide

U.S. News put Marquette's graduate international business program at 22nd overall in 2013 and the executive MBA program ranked 15th.[37]
For 2014, the part-time MBA program was ranked 50th.

College of Nursing
In 2012, U.S. News listed the College of Nursing graduate program as the 44th best in the country, while its nursing-midwifery program was 19th nationally.
The College has one of only five doctorate programs in the U.S. with a "teacher/scholar" focus.

College of Education
The College of Education's graduate degree was most recently ranked 65th overall by U.S. News, up from 79th.

College of Engineering
The school's graduate biomedical engineering program was ranked 53rd in 2013 by U.S. News & World Report.

College of Health Sciences
The physical therapy program was ranked 12th in the nation in 2013 by U.S. News & World Report, and the physician assistant program was ranked 42nd.
The speech-language pathology program was ranked 62nd in the nation in 2013 as well.

Law School
 The Marquette Law School ranked among the top 100 schools, according to U.S. News, with its dispute resolution program ranking 7th and its part-time law degree ranking 19th.
The legal writing program was 22nd overall.

[Atticus]

There are too many liberal arts universities.
There are too many kids that graduate from these schools and then say, "ok, now what do I do?"
The global economy is becoming more and more specialized. It is very, very difficult to make career changes - you better major in something you are passionate about and that is marketable or you will find yourself getting a masters degree that will do just that.
Kids most likely to succeed pick programs or colleges within universities that are very, very good at preparing students for the specific discipline. Unfortunately, not everyone figures it out as an upper classman in h.s.

Just hired a kid from Northeastern not long ago. I was blown away by that school's curriculum. Very unusual in that its not your traditional university. Getting actual work experience through internships all throughout your 5 year undergrad program is a great opportunity, IMO. There is nothing better than on-the-job exposure WHILE you are figuring out what you want to major in. Northeastern kids seem to have things figured out a lot better when they graduate than most kids from traditional 4 year colleges. I will most definitely look at Northeastern kids more often for entry level openings.

A well-rounded individual has value to society, but a well rounded education is becoming worth less and less.

[ChicosBailBonds]

I think MU should base its reputation on things other than garbage-in, garbage-out USN&WR rankings.

My guess is one of the items Another is arguing that despite the validity of the rankings, they have been bought into as "legitimate" by the public, or some portions of the public.  Therefore, not a bad idea to earn as solid a ranking as you can.

[ChicosBailBonds]

They are equally irrelevant.  I pay attention to neither.

Look how many posters do, however?  Look at how many start a post on the weekend asking where we will be ranked come Monday morning and then arguing on Monday afternoon that the ranking was somehow a conspiracy against MU?

Just as perspective students and their families who have never sent a kid to college are going to get on the internet to find out how good a school is.  They will look for ratings, rankings etc.  The schools assist in this by gladly publishing, "hey, we are ranked #75 in the country", etc, etc.

I agree with you Sultan that the rankings leave much to be desired (both AP and USNWR), but I can't ignore that people lock into them all the time.  It's easy for me to dispute the AP stuff for basketball, much harder for the USNWR because the criteria used is unknown or not fully defined to the level for a lay person to figure it out.  So people give the ratings a lot of credibility.

[GGGG]

My guess is one of the items Another is arguing that despite the validity of the rankings, they have been bought into as "legitimate" by the public, or some portions of the public.  Therefore, not a bad idea to earn as solid a ranking as you can.

Here is what Marquette should do.  Do the best job it can...and the rankings take care of themselves.  No educational institution should play up to them simply because the public has the impression they are somehow legit.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Here is what Marquette should do.  Do the best job it can...and the rankings take care of themselves.  No educational institution should play up to them simply because the public has the impression they are somehow legit.

Define doing the best job it can?  In what areas?  It can do a better job in one area vs another area and get the benefit of the rankings.  There is a strategy to all of this.  Just as Buzz (and most D1 coaches) know the nuances of scheduling to get a better RPI bump....it impacts how they schedule to receive a better ranking.  No different than schools around this country "teaching to the test" to try and increase school test scores.  It probably sucks, but that's how it works.

If these ratings systems are so prevalent, we cannot ignore them.  As such, I'm actually happy MU is smart enough to understand this.  Whether or not they can make inroads in the right ares to impact those ratings remains to be seen.

[Tugg Speedman]

If these ratings systems are so prevalent, we cannot ignore them.  As such, I'm actually happy MU is smart enough to understand this.  Whether or not they can make inroads in the right ares to impact those ratings remains to be seen.

This is an important point.  The issue is not should they seek to improve their ratings, but how to go about it and if they actually can.

[Splash11]

Here is what Marquette should do.  Do the best job it can...and the rankings take care of themselves.  No educational institution should play up to them simply because the public has the impression they are somehow legit.

I agree with Chicos. Simply doing the best you can is not going to improve the school and school rankings as a whole. Some of the school's newer changes have been in the Physical Therapy department and through the Law School which, in turn, you can see are very high on the national rankings. Now with the new Engineering building and Nursing Practical labs, I'm sure those departments will take off higher than they could have by just "doing their best." Arts and Sciences is in the works of designating a new building, too, since they share good ole' Coughlin Hall with a variety of other colleges.

[GGGG]

Define doing the best job it can?  In what areas?  It can do a better job in one area vs another area and get the benefit of the rankings.  There is a strategy to all of this.  Just as Buzz (and most D1 coaches) know the nuances of scheduling to get a better RPI bump....it impacts how they schedule to receive a better ranking.  No different than schools around this country "teaching to the test" to try and increase school test scores.  It probably sucks, but that's how it works.

If these ratings systems are so prevalent, we cannot ignore them.  As such, I'm actually happy MU is smart enough to understand this.  Whether or not they can make inroads in the right ares to impact those ratings remains to be seen.

But see, playing to USN&WR is a mistake plain and simple.  USN&WR makes schools do dumb things.  "Exclusivity" scores has them begging for applications even for students they know won't get it...alumni giving rate has schools spend more to try to get every alumnus to give than they actually get in any given appeal...reputation ranking means that schools send their printed material to schools across the country.  (I probably get a couple dozen college brag pieces a month.) *This* is what I want MU to avoid.

What MU should do is figure out what programs to emphasize...work with employers and graduate schools on what they want to see from graduates from these programs...recruit faculty to teach and research in those ares....get the students you want...and produce.  But all of that does mean more resources.

If you do all of that, you simply let the rankings fall where they may...and things will work out just fine.

[Tugg Speedman]

Anyone know what MU's discount is?

And this is what I have been arguing for in many posts in this thread.  MU has to continue to give needs based financial assistance and also give money (less tuition) to top applications as well.

------------------

The Wall Street Journal
May 6, 2013, 12:10 a.m. ET.
Colleges Cut Prices by Providing More Financial Aid
By Ruth Simon

Private U.S. colleges, worried they could be pricing themselves out of the market after years of relentless tuition increases, are offering record financial assistance to keep classrooms full.

The average "tuition discount rate"—the reduction off list price afforded by grants and scholarships given by these schools—hit an all-time high of 45% last fall for incoming freshmen, according to a survey being released Monday by the National Association of College and University Business Officers.

"It's a buyer's market" for all but the most select private colleges and flagship public universities, said Jim Scannell, president of Scannell & Kurz, a consulting firm in Pittsford, N.Y., that works with colleges on pricing and financial-aid strategies.

It is likely that some private colleges will be forced to be even more generous with discounts this fall. As of the May 1 deadline for many high-school seniors to commit for their freshman year of college, early reports suggest some non-top-tier schools fell 10% to 20% short of enrollment targets, said Mr. Scannell.

The jump in aid shows that many colleges are losing pricing power as more families focus on cost and value, with about 65% increasing their discount rate in the fall of 2012. Except for the most exclusive schools, private colleges increasingly are vulnerable to the stagnant wages of many families, deepening student debt, the uncertain job market, growing questions about the value of costly four-year degrees and unfavorable demographics.

About one of every eight U.S. undergraduates is enrolled at a private nonprofit college. Such schools provided 70% of all grant aid to undergraduate students in 2009, the most recent year for which data are available, Nacubo says.

The average discount rate at private colleges has climbed for seven years in a row, and the latest increase was smaller than the jump in 2011, said Natalie Pullaro Davis, the study's author. But colleges also are having a tougher time boosting their sticker prices. That makes it harder for colleges to generate enough new revenue to offset the impact of higher aid and their own rising costs.

Because of economic factors and political pressure on colleges to hold the line on tuition, "we have hit a tipping point on price," said John Nelson, managing director at Moody's Investors Service MCO +3.63%. Last year, the median sticker price at about 280 private colleges and universities tracked by the debt-rating firm rose 3.9%, the smallest increase in at least 12 years.

Tuition increases for the 2013-14 year at these schools are likely to be about the same or slightly smaller, Mr. Nelson said.

Meantime, at four-year public colleges and universities, tuition and fees for in-state students rose 4.8% in the 2012-13 academic year, the smallest increase since 2000-01, according to the College Board. Tuition at these schools for out-of-state students rose 4.2%.

The discount rate for public universities fell modestly in 2012, said Mr. Nelson of Moody's, after rising from 2007 to 2011.

Last fall, enrollment fell at 46% of the 383 private colleges in the new Nacubo survey as the pool of high-school seniors declined. John Walda, the group's president, said the financial squeeze from fewer students is forcing such colleges to find ways to boost revenue, control costs and seek a way to stand out from the crowd. Some of those that can't eventually will shrink, merge or fold, he predicted.

Bill Hall, president of Applied Policy Research Inc., said about 10 of the 20 undergraduate colleges he advises on pricing and aid strategies still are scrambling to fill seats for this fall's freshman class. Officials at some schools are asking accepted applicants who haven't said yes or no if "there are financial issues within reason where we can make an adjustment," he said.

Some private colleges are seeing just 20% of the students they accepted actually enrolling, down from about one-third of accepted students five years ago, Mr. Scannell said.

The economic downturn boosted the number of families who qualify for aid. In addition, even those earning too much to demonstrate need under aid formulas "expect to see some sort of merit aid," unless the school is highly selective, said Trey Chappell, a college adviser in Scottsdale, Ariz.

John Ames said the College of Saint Benedict increased his daughter's scholarship to $17,800 from $14,000—and added a $2,800 work award—after he told the St. Joseph, Minn., school about student-athlete awards she had won and a better offer she received from another college. The school's tuition and fees are $37,926 this fall.

"The end result indicates that I had more power than I thought I did," he said, adding that he appreciated the college's "willingness to meet us in the middle."

Saint Benedict's executive director of financial aid, Stuart Perry, said he couldn't discuss individual students. In general, the roughly 2,000-student college makes "a very small number of revisions to academic-based scholarships," typically in response to new information, and revises need-based awards due to changes in a family's financial situation.

Discounting can help private colleges compete against public institutions. Maureen Anderson, who lives in Detroit Lakes, Minn., said a $55,740 scholarship, which covers tuition, fees and certain other expenses, sealed her daughter's decision to attend New York University instead of her other top choice, the University of California, Berkeley, which made her a less-generous offer. NYU's tuition and fees are about $44,800 for the 2013-14 year.

"Money talks," said Ms. Anderson, host of a syndicated radio program. "Many people look to private colleges because they have those pools of money to draw from."

A Berkeley spokeswoman said 40% of undergraduates pay no tuition because of grants and scholarships, while 65% get at least some financial aid.

Some colleges are trying to raise their appeal by experimenting with new pricing. Sewanee, the University of the South in Sewanee, Tenn., cut tuition 10% to $41,500 in the 2011-12 academic year. While it raised it for freshmen arriving this fall to $45,900, it guaranteed that rate for four years.

As part of the new pricing strategy, Sewanee no longer negotiates merit-based scholarships. "Our first offer is our final and best offer," said John McCardell, Sewanee's vice chancellor. "We have deliberately removed ourselves from the bidding wars."

Sewanee's tuition revenue rose $1.5 million to $33.5 million in the current academic year, after a decline of about $920,000 in the first year of the tuition cut.

One reason: Last fall's entering class of 453 students was 13% larger than two years earlier. The applicant pool rose by nearly 500 to roughly 3,400 last year, allowing the school to take more students while being more selective, said Mr. McCardell, who believes publicity surrounding the new pricing played a roll.

Meantime, Sewanee's current tuition discount of 42% is down from 45% before the price cut.

[WarriorFan]

Let's face it, the strategy as stated could have been shortened to one page - or even one sentence  "We're going to keep doing exactly what we're doing because we haven't exerted the time and energy to figure out a case for doing anything different".  Yes, I'm an alum.  Yes, I enjoyed my time at MU, but c'mon people - expertise in something beyond stagnation is required to become great!

[GGGG]

Let's face it, the strategy as stated could have been shortened to one page - or even one sentence  "We're going to keep doing exactly what we're doing because we haven't exerted the time and energy to figure out a case for doing anything different".  Yes, I'm an alum.  Yes, I enjoyed my time at MU, but c'mon people - expertise in something beyond stagnation is required to become great!

I agree to a point.  But there is such a thing as excelling within your various academic disciplines while serving the same type of mission that you always have. 

This kind of strikes at the heart of what I think is misguided here.  "Being ranked higher by USN&WR" is not necessarily "better."  But that doesn't mean stagnation.

They should look at their academic program array.  Figure out what they could add, what needs to be modified, and perhaps what needs to be dropped.  Make sure what ever programs they offer are relevant to the workforce, and to graduate and professional schools.  Survey the recent graduates:  Did they enjoy their time at MU?  Did they get a job in their current field?  Did their MU education prepare them well?  Did they get into the graduate/professional school of their choice?

How about retention?  Why have people left the school?  If it was for academic reasons, how could MU have provided additional help?  If they went to another school, why did they do so?

And Dr. Blackheart brought up some good points.  What about the next generation of Catholics?  What about the Hispanic population that is largely first generation?  How can MU reach out to them?

There are hundreds of things that MU can do, and is likely already doing, to improve its product.  This is what is so wrong about USN&WR.  You don't have to be more "exclusive" to be better.  You don't have to increase the reputation in the eyes of some bumf*ck college president in Arkansas to be better.  Too many people have bought into these rankings as legitimate measurements of what makes a school good, but in many ways they are just superficial. 

Harvard isn't good because they are exclusive.  Harvard is good because they produce a good product.

[Splash11]

Anyone know what MU's discount is?

And this is what I have been arguing for in many posts in this thread.  MU has to continue to give needs based financial assistance and also give money (less tuition) to top applications as well.

Tuition at Marquette is roughly $33,000 plus another $10,000 for room and board for Frosh/Soph. Everyone that applies to Marquette is automatically applying for an Ignatius scholarship. These scholarships range anywhere from $3,000 per year to $14,000 per year. Marquette also offers many scholarships to students who have come from Jesuit highschools, and offers more financial aid than I can see from other state schools, including Wisconsin and Illinois.

[mu03eng]

Marquette needs to focus more on what it's students need in the real world and putting students in a position to get a good job that pays well.

I work for a major global company in Milwaukee and we recruit at the engineering school all the time and I'm one of the liaisons to the school.  I interview and talk with MU students constantly and I'm surprised how little the curriculum has changed in the last 10 years.  I think the new engineering school is a great start and they are starting to focus more on "real world" problems, but there is still no focus on the business side of engineering or cross functional interactions or project management or a million other things that you need experience with as a real world engineer.

MU has a chance to get ahead of the power curve because I don't see a ton of universities truly preparing their students for success in the corporate world which is where 90% of them are going to have to succeed.  Perhaps it's a millennial generation thing, but the number of under prepared college graduates is staggering.  If I'm a parent I'm much more interested in a school that is putting my kids on the track to a good career than they one that has the most alumni donations.

[GGGG]

Marquette needs to focus more on what it's students need in the real world and putting students in a position to get a good job that pays well.

I work for a major global company in Milwaukee and we recruit at the engineering school all the time and I'm one of the liaisons to the school.  I interview and talk with MU students constantly and I'm surprised how little the curriculum has changed in the last 10 years.  I think the new engineering school is a great start and they are starting to focus more on "real world" problems, but there is still no focus on the business side of engineering or cross functional interactions or project management or a million other things that you need experience with as a real world engineer.

MU has a chance to get ahead of the power curve because I don't see a ton of universities truly preparing their students for success in the corporate world which is where 90% of them are going to have to succeed.  Perhaps it's a millennial generation thing, but the number of under prepared college graduates is staggering.  If I'm a parent I'm much more interested in a school that is putting my kids on the track to a good career than they one that has the most alumni donations.

Exactly!  This is exactly what I am talking about.  This doesn't mean stagnation, and this won't move MU up any dumb ranking system, but it produces a better product.

[Galway Eagle]

For the record we were tied at #77 when I arrived here as a Freshman now we're #83 four years later.  (Get any sarcastic comments about how it was my fault or my class's fault out of the way) I think that we need this plan as this is not a trend that we want to continue, as small as 6 places is.