Washington Redskins change their name

[Skitch]

Reilly was great.  I remember reading his SI stuff 20-30 years ago and thought it was fabulous.  Then he lost his edge.  Starting mailing it in.  Literally repeating columns from years ago.  His ESPN era was absolutely brutal.

I loved his columns inside the back page of SI.  He also wrote a couple fictional books centered around golf I really enjoyed.

Here is his column on  Coach McGuire shortly before his passing

http://www.si.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1020392/index.htm

[ChicosBailBonds]

Just take the stigma away.

Change the name to the Maryland Redskins and the disgusting taste will be washed out of everyone's mouth.

[brandx]

Just take the stigma away.

Change the name to the Maryland Redskins and the disgusting taste will be washed out of everyone's mouth.

Since Snyder is Jewish, why not the Washington Kikes? They could change the team symbol to a pile of money.

Some people here don't mind derogatory names, so instead of Snyder calling his team the Redskins, why doesn't he make the right move and use a name that hits closer to home?

[4everwarriors]

Why can't we all just be friends?

[real chili 83]

In before the lock.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Since Snyder is Jewish, why not the Washington Kikes? They could change the team symbol to a pile of money.

Some people here don't mind derogatory names, so instead of Snyder calling his team the Redskins, why doesn't he make the right move and use a name that hits closer to home?

If the vast majority of Jewish folks are ok with it, like Native Americans are with Redskins, go for it.  Otherwise, your analogy falls flat...again. 

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

If the vast majority of Jewish folks are ok with it, like Native Americans are with Redskins, go for it.  Otherwise, your analogy falls flat...again. 

Yes the Sport's Illustrated poll. Because they are the authority on Native Americans 

Even if those numbers are true, which I would bet a lot of money that it is not, it does not matter. 8% of Native Americans is still thousands of people. I will fight for those thousands. Zero harm is done by the Redskins changing their mascot. Thousands are helped by it. It's a utilitarian no brainer.

This will happen eventually. If I were Snyder, I'd rather be remembered as the owner who had the courage to fight for what was right rather than the last owner who clung to a racist mascot.

[Lennys Tap]

This will happen eventually. If I were Snyder, I'd rather be remembered as the owner who had the courage to fight for what was right rather than the last owner who clung to a racist mascot.

You're absolutely right. My great grandchildren (maybe even my grandchildren) will scratch their heads in amazement that a team was once called the "Redskins" and that there once was a mascot like Chief Wahoo. We'll patiently explain that that every generation has ignorant folks who cling to the status quo like it's the Holy Grail. And we'll point out the fact those people who defended racial slurs for nicknames would have, in earlier generations, defended even more evil practices. Thanks to them, progress comes slowly - but it does come.

[brandx]

You're absolutely right. My great grandchildren (maybe even my grandchildren) will scratch their heads in amazement that a team was once called the "Redskins" and that there once was a mascot like Chief Wahoo. We'll patiently explain that that every generation has ignorant folks who cling to the status quo like it's the Holy Grail. And we'll point out the fact those people who defended racial slurs for nicknames would have, in earlier generations, defended more more evil practices. Thanks to them, progress comes slowly - but it does come.

Well put.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Yes the Sport's Illustrated poll. Because they are the authority on Native Americans 

Even if those numbers are true, which I would bet a lot of money that it is not, it does not matter. 8% of Native Americans is still thousands of people. I will fight for those thousands. Zero harm is done by the Redskins changing their mascot. Thousands are helped by it. It's a utilitarian no brainer.

This will happen eventually. If I were Snyder, I'd rather be remembered as the owner who had the courage to fight for what was right rather than the last owner who clung to a racist mascot.

Actually the Anneburg Poll from the University of Pennsylvania, an Ivy League school.

So in your world, you will always fight for the 8% or the "thousands".  Well, there are clearly thousands that are against Fighting Irish...so let's fight it'  There are clearly thousands against the Browns, so let's fight against it.

You are deciding what is racist for a group that has said it is not.  In fact, so much so, that at Native American high schools there are several that have, wait for it, Redskins as their school mascot.

So I always enjoy it when others have the moral high ground to tell others how stupid they are, but they will carry the mantle and defend their stupidity for having such mascot because they don't realize that it is racist.   

[ChicosBailBonds]

You're absolutely right. My great grandchildren (maybe even my grandchildren) will scratch their heads in amazement that a team was once called the "Redskins" and that there once was a mascot like Chief Wahoo. We'll patiently explain that that every generation has ignorant folks who cling to the status quo like it's the Holy Grail. And we'll point out the fact those people who defended racial slurs for nicknames would have, in earlier generations, defended more more evil practices. Thanks to them, progress comes slowly - but it does come.

It's why I was so glad to see the Kings beat the Blackhawks because having a Native American's face on a uniform is so disrespectful.  I look forward to telling my grandchildren how I led the charge against Chicago racism for putting a Native American on a uniform.

Of course, I had to cheer for the Kings, which is a put down of women and supports a patriarchal society so I am now no longer going to support any team anywhere that has a human being of any kind as a mascot.....but then, is it fair then to cheer for a bird mascot over a mammal...would would the mammals think?  Who is out there to defend the 8% or thousands of mammals?

[ChicosBailBonds]

If you guys could, please send a note to Red Mesa High School in Arizona.  Navajo school on a reservation.  They don't know they are racist because they have Redskins as their nickname and mascot, even though they are Native American.

I was hoping some of you that are morally superior could teach them, and their grandkids the error of their ways.

http://rmusdhs.ss4.sharpschool.com/


When you are done, here are a few more with the same message.

Kingston High School in Oklahoma.  Majority Native American...and racist apparently..or just stupid....damn those Choctaw and Chicasaw tribes for being so ignorant. Oh, they've worn the Redskins name on their uniform for 105 years.   http://www.kingston.k12.ok.us/

McCloud High School in Oklahoma.  So on and so forth.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Actually the Anneburg Poll from the University of Pennsylvania, an Ivy League school.

And what about the study by the American Psychology Association that determined that having Native American mascots at non-Native American serving institutions was detrimental for the development and mental health of Native American students?

So in your world, you will always fight for the 8% or the "thousands".  Well, there are clearly thousands that are against Fighting Irish...so let's fight it'  There are clearly thousands against the Browns, so let's fight against it.

1. Where are these thousands? I have never heard of someone against the Fighting Irish mascot. The only time I have ever heard anything on it is in arguments like this where white people get defensive and try to use this as an excuse.

2. The Irish are now a majority group in terms of privilege. Native Americans are not. There is a difference.

3. Notre Dame when it started was an Irish Serving Institution. A significant portion of their population has always been Irish. It is different when a group wants to name their mascot after themselves. That's why the NCAA allowed Tribal College's such as UNC-Pembroke to keep their mascots when the mandate came down in 2005.

4. I am against the Browns nickname actually. I think it should be changed. I am more worried however about the mascot that is a racial slur for Native Americans.

5. What is the harm? Seriously? What bad thing will happen if the mascot is changed? You have thousands of Native Americans who are insulted by this. Recent polls show most Americans in general think it should be changed. What possible harm is there in changing the mascot to something less offensive? This is a move by stubborn people who don't want to admit that they have been endorsing racism for years.

You are deciding what is racist for a group that has said it is not.  In fact, so much so, that at Native American high schools there are several that have, wait for it, Redskins as their school mascot.

See number 3 above.

The study never said it wasn't racist. The study "shows" that most are alright with it being used as a mascot. There is a difference. What people in power never seem to understand that those who don't have the power are not always willing to speak against those in power. I have a coworker who my other coworkers routinely jokingly call "tar baby" and make jokes about watermelon, fried chicken, and lynching trees. I'll let you guess what race my coworker is. I've called them out on it and they shrug it off and say "he's ok with it." My coworker will shrug and not say anything. When I have asked him about it in private he has said "it's really not worth fighting it. If I tell them to stop they will either feel too guilty to be around me or be angry at me for making them feel guilty."

Here is what I know, if I, a white person, call a Native American a redskin. I will most likely be punched or told to f**k off. I spent my summers growing up on the Lac Du Flambaeu Indian Reservation. Chicos, you are welcome to have another beer summit with me up at Cricket's Pub in Lac Du Flambaeu. I'll be happy to let you test this theory there.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

If you guys could, please send a note to Red Mesa High School in Arizona.  Navajo school on a reservation.  They don't know they are racist because they have Redskins as their nickname and mascot, even though they are Native American.

I was hoping some of you that are morally superior could teach them, and their grandkids the error of their ways.

http://rmusdhs.ss4.sharpschool.com/


When you are done, here are a few more with the same message.

Kingston High School in Oklahoma.  Majority Native American...and racist apparently..or just stupid....damn those Choctaw and Chicasaw tribes for being so ignorant. Oh, they've worn the Redskins name on their uniform for 105 years.   http://www.kingston.k12.ok.us/

McCloud High School in Oklahoma.  So on and so forth.

Chicos, you are much too smart to actually believe this argument justifies the Washington Redskins.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Of course, I had to cheer for the Kings, which is a put down of women and supports a patriarchal society so I am now no longer going to support any team anywhere that has a human being of any kind as a mascot.....but then, is it fair then to cheer for a bird mascot over a mammal...would would the mammals think?  Who is out there to defend the 8% or thousands of mammals?

Again Chichos, you are way too smart to actually believe this argument. Insulting a person's occupation and insulting a person's occupation are not nearly on the same level.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Chicos, you are much too smart to actually believe this argument justifies the Washington Redskins.

You are dodging the question.  If it is racist, as you and others say it is, why are Native Americans not only in polling saying they are proud of the name but also in practice use the name for athletic teams as a name and mascot.

Or, is it possible, that white guilt America says it is racist and therefore that opinion matters more.

Or, maybe I'm just not that smart, so go ahead and explain it to me.  Thanks

[ChicosBailBonds]

And what about the study by the American Psychology Association that determined that having Native American mascots at non-Native American serving institutions was detrimental for the development and mental health of Native American students?

1. Where are these thousands? I have never heard of someone against the Fighting Irish mascot. The only time I have ever heard anything on it is in arguments like this where white people get defensive and try to use this as an excuse.

2. The Irish are now a majority group in terms of privilege. Native Americans are not. There is a difference.

3. Notre Dame when it started was an Irish Serving Institution. A significant portion of their population has always been Irish. It is different when a group wants to name their mascot after themselves. That's why the NCAA allowed Tribal College's such as UNC-Pembroke to keep their mascots when the mandate came down in 2005.

4. I am against the Browns nickname actually. I think it should be changed. I am more worried however about the mascot that is a racial slur for Native Americans.

5. What is the harm? Seriously? What bad thing will happen if the mascot is changed? You have thousands of Native Americans who are insulted by this. Recent polls show most Americans in general think it should be changed. What possible harm is there in changing the mascot to something less offensive? This is a move by stubborn people who don't want to admit that they have been endorsing racism for years.
 

See number 3 above.

The study never said it wasn't racist. The study "shows" that most are alright with it being used as a mascot. There is a difference. What people in power never seem to understand that those who don't have the power are not always willing to speak against those in power. I have a coworker who my other coworkers routinely jokingly call "tar baby" and make jokes about watermelon, fried chicken, and lynching trees. I'll let you guess what race my coworker is. I've called them out on it and they shrug it off and say "he's ok with it." My coworker will shrug and not say anything. When I have asked him about it in private he has said "it's really not worth fighting it. If I tell them to stop they will either feel too guilty to be around me or be angry at me for making them feel guilty."

Here is what I know, if I, a white person, call a Native American a redskin. I will most likely be punched or told to f**k off. I spent my summers growing up on the Lac Du Flambaeu Indian Reservation. Chicos, you are welcome to have another beer summit with me up at Cricket's Pub in Lac Du Flambaeu. I'll be happy to let you test this theory there.

What is the harm in changing it?  Why don't you ask Native Americans who outline it quite well.  They are afraid as we continue to get further and further away from honoring Native Americans in whatever form people choose to do so, they will become more and more forgotten.  Their words, not mind.

I've told the story earlier, my bro in law is Choctaw.  Sorry, I'm not being told to F off or punched in the face if I am cheering for the Redskins in his presence.  Nor is anyone else that cheers for the Redskins. 

[ChicosBailBonds]

Again Chichos, you are way too smart to actually believe this argument. Insulting a person's occupation and insulting a person's occupation are not nearly on the same level.

You conveniently cut out the part about having a person's head on a sweater for the Chicago Blackhawks.  Certainly, SOMEONE is offended by this.  These people should be treated as mere mascots, why is that ok?  Because the mascot doesn't look like Chief Wahoo?  OK, so Chiefs should be ok (even though some people are up in arms and if they knew the origin of the Chiefs name it might make them bite their tongue).

Someone is always offended by something, and yes that includes people regarding the Fighting Irish as a slam against the Irish.  Just because YOU haven't heard about it, doesn't mean it isn't there.

The idea of getting rid of the Brown is honest the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard of, and I say that as a resident of Cleveland for 5 years and two parents from there.  They were named after Paul Brown.

[Lennys Tap]

Actually the Anneburg Poll from the University of Pennsylvania, an Ivy League school.

So in your world, you will always fight for the 8% or the "thousands".  Well, there are clearly thousands that are against Fighting Irish...so let's fight it'  There are clearly thousands against the Browns, so let's fight against it.

You are deciding what is racist for a group that has said it is not.  In fact, so much so, that at Native American high schools there are several that have, wait for it, Redskins as their school mascot.

So I always enjoy it when others have the moral high ground to tell others how stupid they are, but they will carry the mantle and defend their stupidity for having such mascot because they don't realize that it is racist.   

I don't like it when black people call themselves and each other #$%^&*s, but even if they're okay with that I'd still be against a professional sports team using a racial slur like "#$%^&*s" as a nickname. I'm told it's also common for gays to call each other handsome person, queer and other names that I would not be okay with in conversation or for a college's nickname. Words have meanings. Spare us the silly idea that because of a poll or because "that's what they call themselves" it isn't racist or bigoted for you to do likewise. That's just silly.

[ChicosBailBonds]

I don't like it when black people call themselves and each other #$%^&*s, but even if they're okay with that I'd still be against a professional sports team using a racial slur like "#$%^&*s" as a nickname. I'm told it's also common for gays to call each other handsome person, queer and other names that I would not be okay with in conversation or for a college's nickname. Words have meanings. Spare us the silly idea that because of a poll or because "that's what they call themselves" it isn't racist or bigoted for you to do likewise. That's just silly.

So you get to decide?  LOL.  Actually, you don't.  Good for Dan Snyder, glad he is standing firm on this, even if your grandchildren are going to be upset.  Your grandchildren might be horrified that a Blackhawk is on a pennant in your garage or that granddaddy openly cheered for the Blackhawks.  I'd be more worried about your grandchildren wondering who Native Americans even are in 30 years or what they are allowed to say at all before being labeled by thought police, political correctness, etc.

As for your argument, that is completely contrary to the arguments here.  On one hand, I hear the argument that it is ok for Native American schools to call themselves Redskins or ok that African Americans call themselves certain terms.  You don't like it, but others say that's ok because that is "their" culture.  Using that argument, then if Dan Snyder wants to call his team the Kikes (or whatever term was used earlier today) should be just fine, afterall it is part of his culture. 

Fun watching the hypocrisy unwind so quickly.  Incidentally, since I work with probably 100 gay people...easily that number if not double that number...if you were to tell my coworkers they could not use certain terms you don't like, they would call it censorship. 

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

You are dodging the question.  If it is racist, as you and others say it is, why are Native Americans not only in polling saying they are proud of the name but also in practice use the name for athletic teams as a name and mascot.

Or, is it possible, that white guilt America says it is racist and therefore that opinion matters more.

Or, maybe I'm just not that smart, so go ahead and explain it to me.  Thanks

I didn't dodge the question. I answered it in a previous post. Native Americans can call each other Redskin as a symbol of pride. When it comes from a non-Native it is a slur.

I'm glad you brought up white guilt. Because it is the single most frustrating thing about race relations. Fear of white guilt is what halts positive progress. People like Dan Snyder are terrified to change the status quo. Becasue if they change the status quo, than they are admitting that their previous words and actions were not only wrong but racist. We are so afraid to be called racist that it paralyzes us, keeps us from having positive dialogue about the subject of race.

The truth is, we should feel guilty. Every last one of us has benefited from a system that grants advantages to whites that are not available to other races. We don't want to admit to it because we fear that it somehow cheapens all the work we have done. We fear being labeled a racist. We fear admitting that we have been wrong. When the truth is, we have all benefitted, we are all racist, and we have all been wrong. First step to fixing any kind of problem is admitting that there is a problem. Dan Snyder needs to grow a pair, be the bigger man, and admit he has been wrong and racist. Once he and others can admit this, we can finally work towards true equality.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

What is the harm in changing it?  Why don't you ask Native Americans who outline it quite well.  They are afraid as we continue to get further and further away from honoring Native Americans in whatever form people choose to do so, they will become more and more forgotten.  Their words, not mind.

I've told the story earlier, my bro in law is Choctaw.  Sorry, I'm not being told to F off or punched in the face if I am cheering for the Redskins in his presence.  Nor is anyone else that cheers for the Redskins.  

This is the only argument that I have heard the opposition bring forward that I think is legitimate. I interned at the University of Utah for a summer. I got to witness some epic debates between various professionals over the Ute mascot. The truth is, without the university's support, the Ute tribe may have faded into history by this point. I think because of this, an argument could be made for the preservation of mascots that honor a specific tribe. Provided they have the tribe's full support, no offensive imagery is used, there is culture of respect, and the tribe is reimbursed for use of it's name. The Washington redskins however do not preserve or celebrate Native American history. They celebrate a history of Native American's oppression at the hands of whites. Cleveland Indians do the same thing.

As for the example you gave, you twisted the example. I was talking about calling an individual native american who you are not related to a redskin. Not cheering for a native american serving institution's team with a native american who is your brother in law. The invite to Cricket's still stands.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

You conveniently cut out the part about having a person's head on a sweater for the Chicago Blackhawks.  Certainly, SOMEONE is offended by this.  These people should be treated as mere mascots, why is that ok?  Because the mascot doesn't look like Chief Wahoo?  OK, so Chiefs should be ok (even though some people are up in arms and if they knew the origin of the Chiefs name it might make them bite their tongue).

Someone is always offended by something, and yes that includes people regarding the Fighting Irish as a slam against the Irish.  Just because YOU haven't heard about it, doesn't mean it isn't there.

The idea of getting rid of the Brown is honest the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard of, and I say that as a resident of Cleveland for 5 years and two parents from there.  They were named after Paul Brown.

You should know better CBB. I am against the Blackhawks too. I didn't mention it specifically because I figured you would have guessed that already. BTW, do you think I am Blackhawks fan? Far from it, I am all Red Wings baby.

The Chiefs' origin is fine, but their decision to utilize native american imagery made them vulnerable. If they used a fireman's hat and axe as a mascot or maybe some US military man, they would have been fine. But they decided to embrace the use of Native American imagery and it leads to gems like this



The Chiefs case is similar to Marquette's. Warriors does not inherently refer to Native Americans. It was our choice to use racist effigies like Willie Wampum to represent us. If we had gone in a different direction, we would have been fine. It was our own fault. I assume you think Willie Wampum was racist correct?

For the Irish, it is true, there may be people who are genuinely offended by the mascot. Just because I haven't met them, doesn't mean they aren't there. But that was only 1 of the 3 reasons I gave you for being fine with Fighting Irish. And it was the least of the three.

The Browns I may be wrong on. I looked at the history and I have found no major instances where they utilized Native American imagery. Unless, I missed something, than I think there is no issue there.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

So you get to decide?  LOL.  Actually, you don't.  Good for Dan Snyder, glad he is standing firm on this, even if your grandchildren are going to be upset.  

So Dan Snyder has a right to name his team whatever he wants, but we don't have a right to be offended by it?

I'd be more worried about your grandchildren wondering who Native Americans even are in 30 years or what they are allowed to say at all before being labeled by thought police, political correctness, etc.

???? So fans being outraged by something=thought police? The government isn't coming in and forcing Dan Snyder to change the name. We are simply Americans who are expressing our distaste for the Redskins mascot. Eventually public pressure will make it more beneficial to Snyder or a new Redskins owner to change the name. Capitalism at it's finest.

As for the bit about not knowing who Native Americans are in 30 years, it is a bit of a stretch. But it is a valid concern. But as stated in previous posts, Team named after a tribe with tribe's full support and culture of respect=Preserving tradition, Native Americans naming a team Redskins=Preserving tradition, Rich white guy naming his team Redskins with fans who routinely show up in war paint and red face=Racist.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

I don't like it when black people call themselves and each other #$%^&*s, but even if they're okay with that I'd still be against a professional sports team using a racial slur like "#$%^&*s" as a nickname. I'm told it's also common for gays to call each other handsome person, queer and other names that I would not be okay with in conversation or for a college's nickname. Words have meanings. Spare us the silly idea that because of a poll or because "that's what they call themselves" it isn't racist or bigoted for you to do likewise. That's just silly.

I agree with the side you are on, but I don't agree with this argument. Taking slurs and turning them into words of empowerment is one of the few weapons that minority populations have available to them. It's why the feminist movement embraced the word "b**ch." It's why the n-word is so commonly used in african american culture, it's why queer is now concerned a reclaimed word and refers to a specific type of sexual orientation. It's a way to lessen the blows of living in a racist society. So if an HBCU wanted to name themselves the N****rs, I would be fine with it. I don't think they ever well because I think the pressure from other parts of the black community would make it counter-productive.