Transfers....not just an MU problem

[tower912]

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/college-basketball/news/20130801/college-basketball-transfer-study/?sct=uk_t11_a0

Some fascinating stats here.   

[ChicosBailBonds]

I'll bet if we didn't require student athletes to sit for a year it would reduce the number of transfers.

[Jay Bee]

PAY THESE KIDS WHO ARE UNFAIRLY CHAINED TO THEIR RESPECTIVE SCHOOL! BURN THE COACHES! MOST KIDS CAN'T TRANSFER IF THEY WANT TO. IT'S SO WRONG!

[TJ]

What are you both sarcastically trying to say?

Chicos - your statement is obviously untrue, as you intended, but who cares?
Jay Bee - your statement lacks focus and doesn't really say anything that I can tell.

The basic question is: Why should SA's be forced to stay at a school or be punished if they are unhappy there?

[Jay Bee]

The basic question is: Why should SA's be forced to stay at a school or be punished if they are unhappy there?

SA's aren't forced to stay anywhere; there are transfer rules for a number of reasons, including academics.

What you call punishment I call a residency requirement to compete. If they are unhappy at one school they can leave that school and find happiness elsewhere. It just means they may have to wait to compete for a year, generally while having their education, room & board, etc. paid for in the case of basketball SA's.

Why should kids be forced to have certain grades or a certain ACT score to be declare eligible? Why do kids have minimum credit requirements / progress toward degree requirements they must meet in order to retain eligibility? Why can one school deny enrollment to a kid because of academics when he's eligible per NCAA requirements?

There are lots of rules.  One year of not being able to compete is a rule and not an "unreasonable punishment".

[ChicosBailBonds]

What are you both sarcastically trying to say?

Chicos - your statement is obviously untrue, as you intended, but who cares?
Jay Bee - your statement lacks focus and doesn't really say anything that I can tell.

The basic question is: Why should SA's be forced to stay at a school or be punished if they are unhappy there?

I'm trying to say if we think transfers are a problem today, which they are, it will become exponential if we go down the path of eliminating the sit one year rule.  We should be teaching kids to not bail out the first sign of adversity.  This happens way too much on the AAU and high school circuit.  I'm 100% with Izzo on this. 

Went through it this week with my daughter.  She's up at a camp for diabetic children all week, 11 years old and first time away from home by herself.  Got a call yesterday from the head of the camp that she's homesick, misses us.  Would like to leave early.  Had a long conversation with my wife and we told the camp, she stays.  She has to gut it out, persevere a bit.  I know that's not an apples to apples comparison, but I don't think it's way off either.  At some point we have to be teaching today's youth that they can't just up and leave at every curveball life throws at them.

[GGGG]

One year of not being able to compete is a rule and not an "unreasonable punishment".

Yes it is a rule.  It is your opinion that it isn't an unreasonable punishment.

[brandx]

Student athletes transfer at a rate of about 34 percent.

Non-SA's transfer at a rate of about 33 percent.

[Spotcheck Billy]

There plenty of transfers in the ACC this year, only 2 of the 15 schools are not bringing in a transfer. Due to conference realignment there are even a few transfers that will play against their former schools:

1. Duke – Rodney Hood from Mississippi State
2. Syracuse – Duke transfer Michael Gbinije
3. UNC – none
4. Virginia – South Carolina transfer Anthony Gill
5. Notre Dame – fifth-year senior center Garrick Sherman played his first two years at Michigan State
6. Pitt – lost two key returnees to transfer, 6-11 juco Joseph Uchebo and 6-9 Rutgers transfer Derrick Randall. Pitt will add Vanderbilt transfer Sheldon Jeter.
7. Maryland – Michigan transfer Evan Smotrycz .
8. Boston College –Notre Dame transfer Alex Dragicevich
9. Florida State – none
10. N.C. State – LSU transfer Ralston Turner and juco transfer Desmond Lee
11. Georgia Tech – Perhaps the single most important transfer in the ACC is Tennessee point guard Trae Golden.
12. Miami – Kansas State point guard Angel Rodriquez and Texas wing guard Sheldeon McClellan. This year’s team will be helped by 6-10 Donnavan Kirk, a slender big man who started at Miami, transferred to DePaul, and is now transferring back to Miami for his final season. Juco transfer James Kelly.
13. Wake Forest – Robert Morris transfer Coron Williams
14. Clemson – 6-10 juco Ibrahim Djambo
15. Virginia Tech – 6-3 transfer sophomore guard Adam Smith, who started at UNC Wilmington two years ago.

[NavinRJohnson]

I'm trying to say if we think transfers are a problem today, which they are,

For whom exactly are they a problem, and what is the negative impact?

[Ellenson Guerrero]

I'm trying to say if we think transfers are a problem today, which they are, it will become exponential if we go down the path of eliminating the sit one year rule.  We should be teaching kids to not bail out the first sign of adversity.  This happens way too much on the AAU and high school circuit.  I'm 100% with Izzo on this. 

Went through it this week with my daughter.  She's up at a camp for diabetic children all week, 11 years old and first time away from home by herself.  Got a call yesterday from the head of the camp that she's homesick, misses us.  Would like to leave early.  Had a long conversation with my wife and we told the camp, she stays.  She has to gut it out, persevere a bit.  I know that's not an apples to apples comparison, but I don't think it's way off either.  At some point we have to be teaching today's youth that they can't just up and leave at every curveball life throws at them.

Totally agree. Let's just change the rule to make coaches and ADs sit out a year if they want to transfer. What's good for the goose...

[NavinRJohnson]

PAY THESE KIDS WHO ARE UNFAIRLY CHAINED TO THEIR RESPECTIVE SCHOOL! BURN THE COACHES! MOST KIDS CAN'T TRANSFER IF THEY WANT TO. IT'S SO WRONG!

[Atticus]

Time for the NCAA to get rid the of grad school rule. In the the last three years, not one "graduate student" has earned his masters degree after transferring...to play basketball for one more year.

[MerrittsMustache]

It would be interesting if programs could sign players to 1, 2, 3, 4 or 5-year contracts when they commit. Each player would then be eligible for one, and only one, contract extension during his time in college. For example, if a player signs a 1-year deal but clearly is going to need another year in school to develop, he could sign an extension for 1-4 years (4 years, meaning he'd need to redshirt a season). If the player doesn't sign his extension by a deadline (say the Friday after the FF), he's gone - either to the pros or to another school. If a player is a fringe prospect, the program may sign him to only a 1 or 2-year deal and see how it works out. Obviously this could never happen for a number of reasons, but it'd be fun to watch.

[Atticus]

There plenty of transfers in the ACC this year, only 2 of the 15 schools are not bringing in a transfer. Due to conference realignment there are even a few transfers that will play against their former schools:

1. Duke – Rodney Hood from Mississippi State
2. Syracuse – Duke transfer Michael Gbinije
3. UNC – none
4. Virginia – South Carolina transfer Anthony Gill
5. Notre Dame – fifth-year senior center Garrick Sherman played his first two years at Michigan State
6. Pitt – lost two key returnees to transfer, 6-11 juco Joseph Uchebo and 6-9 Rutgers transfer Derrick Randall. Pitt will add Vanderbilt transfer Sheldon Jeter.
7. Maryland – Michigan transfer Evan Smotrycz .
8. Boston College –Notre Dame transfer Alex Dragicevich
9. Florida State – none
10. N.C. State – LSU transfer Ralston Turner and juco transfer Desmond Lee
11. Georgia Tech – Perhaps the single most important transfer in the ACC is Tennessee point guard Trae Golden.
12. Miami – Kansas State point guard Angel Rodriquez and Texas wing guard Sheldeon McClellan. This year’s team will be helped by 6-10 Donnavan Kirk, a slender big man who started at Miami, transferred to DePaul, and is now transferring back to Miami for his final season. Juco transfer James Kelly.
13. Wake Forest – Robert Morris transfer Coron Williams
14. Clemson – 6-10 juco Ibrahim Djambo
15. Virginia Tech – 6-3 transfer sophomore guard Adam Smith, who started at UNC Wilmington two years ago.

This list isnt accurate. Hood transferred last year and sat out last season. Gbinije transferred last year and sat out last season. Those players (and there are probably others on your list) are not THIS year's transfers.

[Spotcheck Billy]

I realize that some on the list are sitting out this year and some already did, I edlited some text out that clarified that (I hate the small box Scoop has for posting because I cannot scroll down and still view the cursor)

This list isnt accurate. Hood transferred last year and sat out last season. Gbinije transferred last year and sat out last season. Those players (and there are probably others on your list) are not THIS year's transfers.

[bilsu]

I think there is a problem. I have no problem with a player like Ferguson transferring out after spending a year here. However, recruiting players that cannot make it through an entire season indicates there is some kind of problem in recruiting. Roseboro, Smith, Maymon, Taylor and McKay all did not make it through their first season. I suppose you can throw Newbill in to. How do you sign so many players that do not have the balls to survive even one season?

[MerrittsMustache]

I think there is a problem. I have no problem with a player like Ferguson transferring out after spending a year here. However, recruiting players that cannot make it through an entire season indicates there is some kind of problem in recruiting. Roseboro, Smith, Maymon, Taylor and McKay all did not make it through their first season. I suppose you can throw Newbill in to. How do you sign so many players that do not have the balls to survive even one season?

Roseboro wasn't a Big East caliber player.

Smith thought he was a star.

Maymon's dad wanted the offense run through his two-guard-playing son.

Taylor was homesick.

McKay we're still not sure about.

I don't think that any of these were an issue of "balls."

[bilsu]

Roseboro wasn't a Big East caliber player.

Smith thought he was a star.

Maymon's dad wanted the offense run through his two-guard-playing son.

Taylor was homesick.

McKay we're still not sure about.

I don't think that any of these were an issue of "balls."

The coaches should of figured that out before they signed the players. It appears they are overselling the players on how good they are and underselling what the players have to do to become good. Wisconsin did not recruit Maymon, because they knew his dad was a problem. Ignoring problems does not make them go away.

[marquette20]

Smith thought he was a star.

Smith also transferred midseason from UNLV so he has a history of these decisions. He ended up at Eastern Illinois. I'm not sure what happened to him after that or if he is still playing.

[radome]

Student athletes transfer at a rate of about 34 percent.

Non-SA's transfer at a rate of about 33 percent.

I think that you nailed it. To me, these stats indicate that the student athlete rate is not an issue. Is the overall student transfer rate of concern? Hmmm ... hard to say what is means. The article below indicates less engaged but I haven't seen anything on success, during school or after.

Transfer students reported consistently lower levels of engagement than those who enrolled as freshmen. For instance, 60 percent of those students said they "worked with classmates outside of class to prepare class assignments" often or very often, while only 51 percent of transfer students did so often or very often. And 49 percent of those who enrolled as freshmen talked to professors or advisers about their career plans, while only 36 percent of transfer students did so.

Source: NOTEBOOK, Chronicle of Higher Education, 00095982, 11/22/2002, Vol. 49, Issue 13. Database: MasterFILE Select

[Galway Eagle]

Roseboro wasn't a Big East caliber player.

Smith thought he was a star.

Maymon's dad wanted the offense run through his two-guard-playing son.

Taylor was homesick.

McKay we're still not sure about.

I don't think that any of these were an issue of "balls."

Roseboro I'll agree with.  

Can't fault Taylor for being homesick that's not a recruiting issue.  

Maymonn is a valid but all the same it's possible the school was just trying to get big recruits despite flaws given the state of the program.  

Smith was an idiot with huge potential given his speed but thought too much of himself so that's a personality flaw that should've been seen.  

[MerrittsMustache]

The coaches should of figured that out before they signed the players. It appears they are overselling the players on how good they are and underselling what the players have to do to become good. Wisconsin did not recruit Maymon, because they knew his dad was a problem. Ignoring problems does not make them go away.

Before bringing the players to campus, you believe that the coaches should have known that TJT was going to become homesick? And that Maymon's dad was going to pull his son from the team? And that Reggie Smith would completely overestimate his abilities? Should they have also known that Chris Otule would have injury issues and earn a sixth year of eligibility? Or that Juan Anderson would ask for his release but then come back to the program? Or that Scott Monarch would lie about giving a kid a t-shirt? Perhaps Buzz should bring in John Edward as recruiting coordinator.

Smith was an idiot with huge potential given his speed but thought too much of himself so that's a personality flaw that should've been seen. 

If coaches never brought in players who thought too much of themselves, college athletics would cease to exist.

[GGGG]

Smith also transferred midseason from UNLV so he has a history of these decisions. He ended up at Eastern Illinois. I'm not sure what happened to him after that or if he is still playing.

He actually transferred the summer of 2012...after playing one semester at UNLV.  So he still has two years of eligibility at EIU.  (Very pretty campus by the way.  In the middle of nowhere, but pretty campus.)

[bilsu]

Before bringing the players to campus, you believe that the coaches should have known that TJT was going to become homesick? And that Maymon's dad was going to pull his son from the team? And that Reggie Smith would completely overestimate his abilities? Should they have also known that Chris Otule would have injury issues and earn a sixth year of eligibility? Or that Juan Anderson would ask for his release but then come back to the program? Or that Scott Monarch would lie about giving a kid a t-shirt? Perhaps Buzz should bring in John Edward as recruiting coordinator.


If coaches never brought in players who thought too much of themselves, college athletics would cease to exist.

TJ Taylor had already bailed on Oklahoma. He got a concussion and transferred out. I think that was a red flag. Wisconsin did not recruit Maymon, because his dad was a nut case. That was another red flag. When players come in with too high of expectations the coaches need to show them that a lot of very good players play little as freshmen in major conferences.

[NavinRJohnson]

The coaches should of figured that out before they signed the players. It appears they are overselling the players on how good they are and underselling what the players have to do to become good. Wisconsin did not recruit Maymon, because they knew his dad was a problem. Ignoring problems does not make them go away.

Were this an issue specific to MU, you might have a point. One player or year or so? How many major programs don't find themselves in a similar situation?

[MerrittsMustache]

TJ Taylor had already bailed on Oklahoma. He got a concussion and transferred out. I think that was a red flag. Wisconsin did not recruit Maymon, because his dad was a nut case. That was another red flag. When players come in with too high of expectations the coaches need to show them that a lot of very good players play little as freshmen in major conferences.

Jae Crowder attended 2 different JC, including one that was unaccredited. Red flag!

Vander de-committed from Wisconsin. Red flag!

Jamil Wilson bailed on Oregon. Red flag!

Jake Thomas bailed on South Dakota. Red flag!

Dwight Buycks didn't qualify out of HS. Red flag!

Joe Fulce went to prep school to get his grades up. Red flag!

Mo Acker bailed on Ball State. Red flag!

[Tums Festival]

According to their athletics website, Smith is still at EIU.

http://eiupanthers.com/roster.aspx?rp_id=3685&path=mbball

[ChicosBailBonds]

Were this an issue specific to MU, you might have a point. One player or year or so? How many major programs don't find themselves in a similar situation?

Wisconsin

[muwarrior97]

Wisconsin

Jarrod Uthoff no?

[ChicosBailBonds]

Jarrod Uthoff no?

One player a year or so, I believe was the comment.

[MerrittsMustache]

One player a year or so, I believe was the comment.

Yet Uthoff's transfer got more bad pub nationally than any of Marquette's transfers, almost all of which barely made a ripple.

[bilsu]

Jae Crowder attended 2 different JC, including one that was unaccredited. Red flag!

Vander de-committed from Wisconsin. Red flag!

Jamil Wilson bailed on Oregon. Red flag!

Jake Thomas bailed on South Dakota. Red flag!

Dwight Buycks didn't qualify out of HS. Red flag!

Joe Fulce went to prep school to get his grades up. Red flag!

Mo Acker bailed on Ball State. Red flag!

I talking about whether players have the toughness to stay at least one year. I am not talking about players that transfer after one season. Somehow the coaches need to determine how commited a player is. In Thomas's case he wanted to transfer to a higher level program. That is a sign of commitment to being good, not the sign of being a quiter. McGuire loved taking transfers, because he knew they were not likely to transfer again. I am not against taking transfers or junior college players. I am not against players transferring out which is quite common. It is not that common that players leave before their first year is completed and I doubt that any school comes near to MU under Buzz losing players before their first year is over. It could be that Buzz is more willing to let a player go instead of a coach that will try to force a player to stay. I would love to know what Buzz said when McKay told him he was quiting.

[Jay Bee]

Poor Duke has that "red flag" Rodney Hood.

[MU82]

I talking about whether players have the toughness to stay at least one year. I am not talking about players that transfer after one season. Somehow the coaches need to determine how commited a player is. In Thomas's case he wanted to transfer to a higher level program. That is a sign of commitment to being good, not the sign of being a quiter. McGuire loved taking transfers, because he knew they were not likely to transfer again. I am not against taking transfers or junior college players. I am not against players transferring out which is quite common. It is not that common that players leave before their first year is completed and I doubt that any school comes near to MU under Buzz losing players before their first year is over. It could be that Buzz is more willing to let a player go instead of a coach that will try to force a player to stay. I would love to know what Buzz said when McKay told him he was quiting.

Jamil apparently didn't have the toughness to stay more than one year at Oregon.

[MU82]

Time for the NCAA to get rid the of grad school rule. In the the last three years, not one "graduate student" has earned his masters degree after transferring...to play basketball for one more year.

Yes, because the biggest problem in college sports is that there aren't enough rules limiting kids who are smart enough to get their degrees before their eligibility expires.

[MerrittsMustache]

I talking about whether players have the toughness to stay at least one year. I am not talking about players that transfer after one season. Somehow the coaches need to determine how commited a player is. In Thomas's case he wanted to transfer to a higher level program. That is a sign of commitment to being good, not the sign of being a quiter. McGuire loved taking transfers, because he knew they were not likely to transfer again. I am not against taking transfers or junior college players. I am not against players transferring out which is quite common. It is not that common that players leave before their first year is completed and I doubt that any school comes near to MU under Buzz losing players before their first year is over. It could be that Buzz is more willing to let a player go instead of a coach that will try to force a player to stay. I would love to know what Buzz said when McKay told him he was quiting.

You mentioned that TJT and Maymon both had red flags coming in. Well, so did those players that I listed and they seem to be working out OK.

TJT was homesick. Does that mean he isn't tough? Maymon didn't really have a choice in his departure. Does that mean he isn't tough?

[Dawson Rental]

Before bringing the players to campus, you believe that the coaches should have known that TJT was going to become homesick? And that Maymon's dad was going to pull his son from the team? And that Reggie Smith would completely overestimate his abilities? Should they have also known that Chris Otule would have injury issues and earn a sixth year of eligibility? Or that Juan Anderson would ask for his release but then come back to the program? Or that Scott Monarch would lie about giving a kid a t-shirt? Perhaps Buzz should bring in John Edward as recruiting coordinator.


If coaches never brought in players who thought too much of themselves, college athletics would cease to exist.

IIRC, Maymon wasn't pulled from the team, he was dropped by Buzz after his dad and former AAU coach went above Buzz's head to an assistant AD to try and pressure Buzz into changing the way that he used Jeronne, and Jeronne wasn't happy about having to leave to pay for the sins of those two, but had no choice in the matter.

[GGGG]

IIRC, Maymon wasn't pulled from the team, he was dropped by Buzz after his dad and former AAU coach went above Buzz's head to an assistant AD to try and pressure Buzz into changing the way that he used Jeronne, and Jeronne wasn't happy about having to leave to pay for the sins of those two, but had no choice in the matter.

And he most definitely had the toughness to finish the year. 

[ChicosBailBonds]

Yet Uthoff's transfer got more bad pub nationally than any of Marquette's transfers, almost all of which barely made a ripple.

No disputing that.  Much thanks to Bo

[rocky_warrior]

(I hate the small box Scoop has for posting because I cannot scroll down and still view the cursor)

MUScoop tip of the day:  If you would like to make the post editing box bigger, place your mouse over the bottom right corner of the box, when the cursor changes to an arrow click, and drag it to the size that you like.

voilà.  I hope that relieves some hate from your life