SOTG for UWGB

[ATL MU Warrior]

Im no poster on the scout boards and even here i find brews posts generally respectable, but honestly the things I saw on scout where ppl called out brewse, RIDICULOUS love affair for Otule is correct. Yes, we need chris to clog the middle, alter shots and play defense but it is sickening how vital you actually think a 5 ppg scorer is

You don't understand basketball even a little bit do you? 

[esotericmindguy]

I thought from watching it was no doubt Vander. George and Homer agreed.

Put it this way. If vander doesn't play Marquette likely still wins by 15. If crowder doesn't hit the four 3s to stop runs the game might have been very close. Jones can score vanders points in different ways no one can replace crowders production.

[RJax55]

You don't understand basketball even a little bit do you? 

Although Otule's injury is certainly a lost, I have to agree that some people have overblown his impact. To some, it seems that MU just lost Jimmy Mac circa 1994, and I'm sorry, Otule is not that type of impact defender.

Otule was part of MU defensive improvement, but just a part. The defensive improvement from this team has come from many places, most notably the bench. MU has added three players in Mayo, D. Wilson and J. Wilson that IMO have significantly improved the team defense, especially Jamil. He is our best defender playing the pick and roll and our best big, even including Otule, at help side defense. He leads the team in charges taken and that's no coincidence. Furthermore, our guards are doing (compared to last year) a much better job of keeping guys out of the paint and rotating properly on defense.

Chris' length will be missed, as MU can't replicate that, but that shouldn't mean that MU defense falls off to last year's results. I still think MU can finish with a defense somewhere in the 25-35 range. If that's the case, this team can still go quite far this season.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Put it this way. If vander doesn't play Marquette likely still wins by 15. If crowder doesn't hit the four 3s to stop runs the game might have been very close. Jones can score vanders points in different ways no one can replace crowders production.

Put it this way: Vander could score 75 pts, and you'd still find a flaw in his game.

[GGGG]

Jones can score vanders points in different ways

All evidence to the contrary...

[Goose]

Vander Blue. This kid has a chance to be a very special player. When he is on the court he makes everyone a better player. He rebounds, dishes and slashes hard. For all the anti-VB folks out there I think you are missing how special this kid can be.

[NersEllenson]

I thought from watching it was no doubt Vander. George and Homer agreed.

Agree - I thought this was the best game I've seen Vander play in his MU career.  He was EVERYWHERE.  Very active on the boards, passing lanes, etc.  Even when Vander would drive hard to the hoop and miss the lay in (somewhat badly), he collapsed the defense so much that the miss often ended up right in Gardner's hands for a putback.

[PGsHeroes32]

You don't understand basketball even a little bit do you? 

Uhhh......ya? Do you? Some people like Brew say Otule is the most important part of our team. I'm sorry but common damn sense tells anyone we are A LOT more fuked without DJO or Crowder.

The hype for Chris is actually annoying. Do we need him vs Vandy? Nope, but hed help a lot.......but without DJO or Jae we get pasted by them

[PGsHeroes32]

The reason we've been good and not great the first three years of Buzz's career is our defensive rating constantly being sub-50. The reason we've looked great and not good this year is our defensive rating at #13. our defense is built around Otule more so than our offense is built around any single player.

People get so hung up on 5 ppg, but his defensive impact probably makes his value closer to 25 ppg. When you account for the way he closes down the lane at the back and opens up the lane on offense, yeah, I have great respect for our only irreplaceable player. We're not nearly the same team without him, as Washington and last night showed.

You are in no way wrong in saying Otule is vital but your exaggerations are nuts. He does nything close to have anything close to 25 ppg value.

[Silkk the Shaka]

The Washington and UW-GB games were both 10 points closer than they would have been had Otule been in the lineup. We would not have beaten UW- Madison without Otule clearing out space so our wings could dominate the boards. We had no ceiling before Otule went down, now we do. Simple as that.

[RJax55]

The Washington and UW-GB games were both 10 points closer than they would have been had Otule been in the lineup. We would not have beaten UW- Madison without Otule clearing out space so our wings could dominate the boards. We had no ceiling before Otule went down, now we do. Simple as that.

Disagree. Otule had very little do with MU out rebounding UW-Madison. The reason why MU won the boards against Madison was due to the penetration caused by Blue and Mayo. UW couldn't keep those guys out of the lane, therefore it forced their bigs to rotate over. When that occurred, it left the weak-side open for offensive boards. Plus, MU was just quicker to ball than Madison. Look at all the 50-50 balls MU won in that game.

Against Washington, Otule would have help against N'Diaye, no doubt. I don't think N'Diaye ends up grabbing 12 boards in that game. However, the weak-side rebounding issues MU had exist even with Otule in the game. Honestly, I feel that game against the Huskies is still very close even with Otule playing 25 minutes.

[brewcity77]

Uhhh......ya? Do you? Some people like Brew say Otule is the most important part of our team. I'm sorry but common damn sense tells anyone we are A LOT more fuked without DJO or Crowder.

The hype for Chris is actually annoying. Do we need him vs Vandy? Nope, but hed help a lot.......but without DJO or Jae we get pasted by them

If DJO has an off-night, Mayo can step up and provide 70-80% of what he does. Same with Crowder and Wilson. I fully understand the box score indicates those two are the most important, but Buzz's entire recruiting philosophy is to have 6-7 guys that can slot in from the 2-4 positions. Mayo, Juan, Mellow, Jamil, they can all overlap into the switchable positions that DJO and Jae occupy without much drop-off. I'm not saying zero drop-off, but they can provide in the 70-80% range of what those guys do.

When it comes to DG or anyone else trying to replace CO on the defensive end, I would say that no one provides more than 20-30% of CO's defensive impact.

We are a diametric opposite of Wisconsin. Just like their defense is always good no matter who Bo plugs in, our offense is always good no matter who Buzz plugs in. But on the other end...CO would be the equivalent of UW having a Harrison Barnes, a Tu Holloway, or a DJO type of scorer. That kind of guy would make them instantly a much better team with a near-unlimited ceiling. And that's what a defensive presence like Otule does for us at the defensive end.

Defense is the reason Buzz's teams have underwhelmed often in his first 3 years, and it's the reason this year's team has a chance to contend at a level we haven't seen since I was 1 month old. But when you take away our defensive centerpiece, we become a top 15-20 type team. Not bad, but not nearly what I think we can be with him.

[jsglow]

My SOTG was Jae with VB getting honorable mention.  Jae executed the gameplan perfectly, especially understanding that fouling was not an option.  He needed to be prepared for near 40 minutes of action.  His one first half foul was a joke of a call on what was in fact a clean block.  He led the team like you expect from a Senior.  As for Blue, he's quickly becoming the 5-star player we expect him to be.  One of his better games this year.

[NCMUFan]

My vote for Davante based on intangibles.

[esotericmindguy]

Vander Blue. This kid has a chance to be a very special player. When he is on the court he makes everyone a better player. He rebounds, dishes and slashes hard. For all the anti-VB folks out there I think you are missing how special this kid can be.

So he should be the stud because he CAN be great? Yes, i agree he has oodles of talent but he's a marginal player at this point. Go back an watch how he scores every game. I'd be willing to bet 50% of his buckets are in transition, which is why he'll struggle again once conference games start. I could be wrong but I'm fully expecting his production to reflect last year. Against the three good teams we've played he's shot 13-32 and had 7 TOs vs 5 assists.

I'm not a vander hater, just objective. He might be good even next year but he's not there yet.

[GGGG]

So he should be the stud because he CAN be great? Yes, i agree he has oodles of talent but he's a marginal player at this point. 

Marginal?  He's MU's third leading scorer...second leading assist guy...and tied as our third leading rebounder.  And all those who complain about his shooting?  Among the guards, he is second in FG%...behind only DJO.  Better than Mayo.

On top of that, he's probably MU's best defender. 

Oh and he leads the team in steals.

[Marqus Howard]

I'd vote for Vander too. He's arguably the best defender on the team, rebounds well, and passes well. Any points that he scores is just gravy at this point.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

So he should be the stud because he CAN be great? Yes, i agree he has oodles of talent but he's a marginal player at this point.

If Vander is "marginal" Buzz should recruit a roster full of "marginal sophs" because that would be a great team.

[ATL MU Warrior]

Uhhh......ya? Do you? Some people like Brew say Otule is the most important part of our team. I'm sorry but common damn sense tells anyone we are A LOT more fuked without DJO or Crowder.

The hype for Chris is actually annoying. Do we need him vs Vandy? Nope, but hed help a lot.......but without DJO or Jae we get pasted by them

We just got out-rebounded by GREEN BAY.  Alec Brown put up CAREER highs in points and rebounds.  If this doesn't concern you then I can't help you.

Does this happen with Otule?  No way to know for sure but highly unlikely.  

What on earth do you think is going to happen when we play athletic teams (Vandy, etc.) and high quality bigs?  Ezeli is going to eat us alive.  It's back to the bad old days of the other team getting tons of offensive rebounds, layups and dunks.  It will happen.  

If we have games where we are struggling even a little bit on offense, we will lose because our defense is now a heck of a lot worse.  

[Markusquette]

I agree some people are overrating the Otule loss a bit, but I still think it's pretty big.  We're basically stuck with Davante as our only big man on the team right now.  Some might argue we did just fine in the past without having big guys, but those situations were less than ideal.  This year, we finally have a team with two experienced big men.  I'm not saying the loss hurts us much vs. non-conference teams like UW-GB, but come conference play and the tournament having Otule's presence puts us in a much better position to win versus tougher teams. 

@brewcity I disagree that our bench can simply replace a DJO or Crowder too.  We're trying to compare incoming freshmen to them.  Mayo has really surprised and played well, but let's remember our expectations of guys when conference play started and how it changed last year.  There's no way anyone on the team can replace Jae right now.  I am confident Wilson will be very solid by the time he's a senior, but if we lose one of our two seniors we are in deep sh*t. 

[esotericmindguy]

Marginal?  He's MU's third leading scorer...second leading assist guy...and tied as our third leading rebounder.  And all those who complain about his shooting?  Among the guards, he is second in FG%...behind only DJO.  Better than Mayo.

On top of that, he's probably MU's best defender.  

Oh and he leads the team in steals.

Against scrubs. Until he does it vs. quality opponents I'm not convinced. Hes athletic enough to penetrate vs inferior opponents, which why he never developed his mid range/perimeter game in WI high school basketball. Hes also great in transition which won't be as prevelant once conference play starts  Again, go look at what he did vs. the 3 quality opponents this year and conference play/tourney last year and it's very similar. 35% shooting and more turnovers than assists. I'm sure he'll be good as a junior or senior.

Edit: kenpom has junior and vander blue as the same offensive rating. Just thought you'd like to know.

[GGGG]

Against scrubs. Until he does it vs. quality opponents I'm not convinced.

The rest of the team is playing against the same scrubs.  And did you watch the Wisconsin game?  He hardly played a marginal role there.

Edit: kenpom has junior and vander blue as the same offensive rating. Just thought you'd like to know.

Last I checked, basketball is a game that is played on both ends of the court.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Edit: kenpom has junior and vander blue as the same offensive rating. Just thought you'd like to know.

That's great. How many posts about junior being bad at basketball have you made?


EDIT: Grammar, forgot a word.

[brewcity77]

@brewcity I disagree that our bench can simply replace a DJO or Crowder too.  We're trying to compare incoming freshmen to them.  Mayo has really surprised and played well, but let's remember our expectations of guys when conference play started and how it changed last year.  There's no way anyone on the team can replace Jae right now.  I am confident Wilson will be very solid by the time he's a senior, but if we lose one of our two seniors we are in deep sh*t.

I wouldn't say simply either. I'd hate to have to replace either. But I think that we have the bench to produce 15 ppg at DJO's position, along with 2-3 rpg and 2-3 apg. Not quite DJO numbers, but close enough that we can survive. I certainly think that if pressed into starter minutes, Todd Mayo could average 13/2/2, and that the other minutes would at least give us back some of that lost production.

Jamil might not provide the scoring Jae would, but I think he rebounds and defends just as well. And (assuming everyone was healthy except Jae) I think that between Jamil and Juan, they could come close to replicating his numbers. Yeah, a few less points, but our offensive efficiency is 114.7 points per 100 possessions. If DJO or Jae goes down, I still think we'd be in the 110 range, which would be good enough for a top-30 offense. It'd be a definite drop-off, but there are people with similar skillsets that can step into those roles. That's the reason I'm worried about Chris. Not because of what he does in the box score, but simply because no one else has his skillset.

[Markusquette]

I wouldn't say simply either. I'd hate to have to replace either. But I think that we have the bench to produce 15 ppg at DJO's position, along with 2-3 rpg and 2-3 apg. Not quite DJO numbers, but close enough that we can survive. I certainly think that if pressed into starter minutes, Todd Mayo could average 13/2/2, and that the other minutes would at least give us back some of that lost production.

Jamil might not provide the scoring Jae would, but I think he rebounds and defends just as well. And (assuming everyone was healthy except Jae) I think that between Jamil and Juan, they could come close to replicating his numbers. Yeah, a few less points, but our offensive efficiency is 114.7 points per 100 possessions. If DJO or Jae goes down, I still think we'd be in the 110 range, which would be good enough for a top-30 offense. It'd be a definite drop-off, but there are people with similar skillsets that can step into those roles. That's the reason I'm worried about Chris. Not because of what he does in the box score, but simply because no one else has his skillset.

I don't disagree on the Otule part.  No one else has his skill set of being that inside presence on D and solid at boxing out, etc. The main thing is having our core healthy for conference play and the tournament.  But the thing about guys like DJO and Jae is having someone we can turn to when we need to.  I don't quite see that in Mayo or Jamil right now.  Jae has been so big on the offensive end, getting us off to a good start in the second half for a number of games. 

I agree those guys can step up but what I want to do is thrive, not survive.  Let's just hope we only speculate on the effectiveness of a lineup without DJO and Crowder