Program's identity...

[silverback]

During behind-the-scenes and post-game shows, Buzz Williams likes to tell everyone that he's not an intelligent man. Some of that is down-home Texas humility. Some of that might be sand-bagging. But, I'll take him for his word. He's a hard-working over-achiever who came up from modest intellectual and educational roots to find the opportunity of a lifetime at Marquette. He's overreached his goals. Now, we're seeing whether he's overmatched game to game.

I think he's drawn to kids with similar histories. So, we have an unusually high number of juco and alternative background kids in the program. They present a trade-off. They present quick answers when roster gaps open up, and they can lessen the blow of losing players to graduation. But, they also come from alternative outlets -- as opposed to major high school programs -- because there was a gap in their games or a lapse in the classroom.

Marquette packing a bunch of such kids is a feel-good."give 'em a chance" story on the face of it. But, we're seeing the results on the court. These kids are energetic and eager. But, they also play sloppy, mentally lazy, low-end hustle basketball with limited gameplay IQ. And the aspects of the game that demand dedication and character -- defense, free throws and finishing off opponents -- are obviously lacking.

If Williams keeps up the juco shuffle to this extent, we'll see the current problems continue. It potentially cheapens Marquette Basketball overall – transforming a school that once prided itself on its four-year graduation rate into more and more of a hoops factory.

And, right now, it's a hoops factory with double digit losses and a punched ticket to the NIT.

[Blackhat]

h

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

I think he's drawn to kids with similar histories.

I agree with this and have thought it for a while. There is nothing wrong with it, but I believe Buzz, with his "Life Lessons," etc., prefers the role of father figure...and seems to play it well. That's why I think what we've seen thus far with his recruiting is what we're going to get. I'm just guessing here, but I'm willing to wager he does better on the recruiting trail with the mothers than the fathers.

For the record, last year's team was one of my favorites ever at MU and this year's, although frustrating as hell, isn't far behind. Say what you want, but we're not boring. For whatever reason, if we make the tourney, I have a good feeling.

[Silkk the Shaka]

Do you have any clue whatsoever? We wouldn't have a junior/senior class right now if it wasn't for the JUCO's Buzz brought in. We wouldn't have made the tournament last year if not for Butler's game winners at UConn and St. John's, which were both "character testers" and examples of putting a team away. If Fulce hadn't shattered his knee cap, robbing him of his high-end athleticism, I suspect he would have had a much bigger impact. Instead he transformed his game to maximize all that's left while working hard every day with ZERO cartilage in one knee so people like you can disparage him. Fans like you make me sick. Would you rather Buzz had taked zero JUCO's and had a roster of 7 freshmen and 6 sophomores right now, forever dooming MU into ridiculously unbalanced classes and a probable NIT last year and not even a sniff at the NCAA this year? ..you're stereotyping all JUCO's as dumb as well.

[GGGG]

I cannot disagree with the original poster more.  MU doesn't have a low basketball IQ.  Also, MU has a lot of players with strong father figures.  Jae Crowder and Jamil Wilson, who has a single father, are two off the top of my head.

Marquette's problems are two-fold.  Their defensive scheme sucks, and the lack of decent point guard play.  On the first issue I blame Buzz for installing and sticking with something that obviously doesn't work.  On the second issue, I think Buzz realizes this is a problem.  Junior was one of the top PG recruits coming out of high school.  (Scout had him at the #9 PG in the country.)  I don't know if it is the injury, or simply him having trouble adjusting, but clearly this hasn't panned out as we all have hoped so far.

But please, let's stop insulting the intelligence of the players and being armchair psychologists over "father figures" and the like. Last year's team was considered a bunch of overachievers...and low and behold we lost our PG and a power forward who was an NBA first round pick...and we got worse.  Who would have thought???

[NersEllenson]

During behind-the-scenes and post-game shows, Buzz Williams likes to tell everyone that he's not an intelligent man. Some of that is down-home Texas humility. Some of that might be sand-bagging. But, I'll take him for his word. He's a hard-working over-achiever who came up from modest intellectual and educational roots to find the opportunity of a lifetime at Marquette. He's overreached his goals. Now, we're seeing whether he's overmatched game to game.

I think he's drawn to kids with similar histories. So, we have an unusually high number of juco and alternative background kids in the program. They present a trade-off. They present quick answers when roster gaps open up, and they can lessen the blow of losing players to graduation. But, they also come from alternative outlets -- as opposed to major high school programs -- because there was a gap in their games or a lapse in the classroom.

Marquette packing a bunch of such kids is a feel-good."give 'em a chance" story on the face of it. But, we're seeing the results on the court. These kids are energetic and eager. But, they also play sloppy, mentally lazy, low-end hustle basketball with limited gameplay IQ. And the aspects of the game that demand dedication and character -- defense, free throws and finishing off opponents -- are obviously lacking.

If Williams keeps up the juco shuffle to this extent, we'll see the current problems continue. It potentially cheapens Marquette Basketball overall – transforming a school that once prided itself on its four-year graduation rate into more and more of a hoops factory.

And, right now, it's a hoops factory with double digit losses and a punched ticket to the NIT.

 Just look at the standings in the Big East and realize coaches like Huggins and Boeheim have lost to Buzz and are struggling to record a better record than MU this year.

[Canadian Dimes]

During behind-the-scenes and post-game shows, Buzz Williams likes to tell everyone that he's not an intelligent man. Some of that is down-home Texas humility. Some of that might be sand-bagging. But, I'll take him for his word. He's a hard-working over-achiever who came up from modest intellectual and educational roots to find the opportunity of a lifetime at Marquette. He's overreached his goals. Now, we're seeing whether he's overmatched game to game.

I think he's drawn to kids with similar histories. So, we have an unusually high number of juco and alternative background kids in the program. They present a trade-off. They present quick answers when roster gaps open up, and they can lessen the blow of losing players to graduation. But, they also come from alternative outlets -- as opposed to major high school programs -- because there was a gap in their games or a lapse in the classroom.

Marquette packing a bunch of such kids is a feel-good."give 'em a chance" story on the face of it. But, we're seeing the results on the court. These kids are energetic and eager. But, they also play sloppy, mentally lazy, low-end hustle basketball with limited gameplay IQ. And the aspects of the game that demand dedication and character -- defense, free throws and finishing off opponents -- are obviously lacking.

If Williams keeps up the juco shuffle to this extent, we'll see the current problems continue. It potentially cheapens Marquette Basketball overall – transforming a school that once prided itself on its four-year graduation rate into more and more of a hoops factory.

And, right now, it's a hoops factory with double digit losses and a punched ticket to the NIT.

1.  Buzz has done an amazing job filling the roster.  I converse regualrly with a number of college coaches, including a  Big East assistant and they think Buzz has done an austounding job bringing in talent and filling the gapping holes so quickly.  If it were not for these "worthless" JUcos we would have missed the NCAA's last year and maybe the year before and you would have graced us with your viotrol and ignorance 24 months earlier.

2.  Show me a roster that does not consist of "alternative background" players.  Would you prefer the Stanford roster?  What type of "alternative background do you disagree with?  the color of their skin?, single family homes? inner city public school education? or the fact that they had to go to JUco as a result of the previously listed issues.  I would like to see you make these assessment and accusations to Buzz himself or soem of these "alternative background" players.  You Silverback are an embarrassment to all things MArquette. Character revealed.

[GGGG]

I agree with this and have thought it for a while. There is nothing wrong with it, but I believe Buzz, with his "Life Lessons," etc., prefers the role of father figure...and seems to play it well.

Let me address this futher.  Of the current players on the roster, I *believe* the following are those raised by single mothers:  Buycks, Blue and Junior.  The rest are all from either two parent homes, or divorced homes with an active father figure.

An absolutely dumb statement.

[mu_hilltopper]

Enough with the personal attacks.  State your case, move on.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

I'll take sports fan cliches for $1000

Answer:

- Team leadership
- Program identity
- Chemistry
- "guts", "stones" "balls"
- Continuity

Question:

What are things that are never critiqued when a team is winning?

[NersEllenson]

I'll take sports fan cliches for $1000

Answer:

- Team leadership
- Program identity
- Chemistry
- "guts", "stones" "balls"
- Continuity

Question:

What are things that are never critiqued when a team is winning?

Well done!  Think you might need to add coaching to the list too, however!

[KipsBayEagle]

This topic is ludicrous.  You take away the juco players on this team and we are worse than depaul.  And are you actually implying that juco players are not intelligent enough to play defense or shoot a free throw?

[wildbill sb]

You the man, CD, you the man.  +1 gazillion!

[Marquette84]

This topic is ludicrous.  You take away the juco players on this team and we are worse than depaul.  And are you actually implying that juco players are not intelligent enough to play defense or shoot a free throw?

Said as if the options were having JUCOs or having five empty holes in the roster. That, of course, is patently absurd.  You're completely ignoring the fact that we had a choice to recruit either a JUCOs or a true frosh for each spot on the roster.

If instead of the JUCOs we had recruited freshmen similar in quality to Polee at St. Johns, Lamb at UConn, Lubick from Georgetown, Kilpatrick from Cincy, or dare I say the any one of the Amigos or Hayward, we might even be better than we are right now.  

[Buzzball]

Why don't we stop calling these kids jucos and start calling them Marquette University student athletes?

[Lennys Tap]

Said as if the options were having JUCOs or having five empty holes in the roster. That, of course, is patently absurd.  You're completely ignoring the fact that we had a choice to recruit either a JUCOs or a true frosh for each spot on the roster.

If instead of the JUCOs we had recruited freshmen similar in quality to Polee at St. Johns, Lamb at UConn, Lubick from Georgetown, Kilpatrick from Cincy, or dare I say the any one of the Amigos or Hayward, we might even be better than we are right now.  

And we'd have 1 junior 6 freshmen and 6 sophmores.

[ChicosBailBonds]

And we'd have 1 junior 6 freshmen and 6 sophmores.

And?   I remember when we had 3 freshmen play major minutes not long ago...they won double digit games in the Big East conference, went to the NCAA tournament, etc,. 

Canadian Dimes...in your discussions with these coaches who are saying we are bringing in this great talent (which I agree with by the way), do they express why that talent isn't translating into the wins we had in prior years despite having less talent (and supposedly less talented coaching?)?

[cheebs09]

I also remember Steve Novak. He was pretty good.

[GGGG]

Why don't we stop calling these kids jucos and start calling them Marquette University student athletes?

Too many keystrokes.

[NersEllenson]

And?   I remember when we had 3 freshmen play major minutes not long ago...they won double digit games in the Big East conference, went to the NCAA tournament, etc,.  

Canadian Dimes...in your discussions with these coaches who are saying we are bringing in this great talent (which I agree with by the way), do they express why that talent isn't translating into the wins we had in prior years despite having less talent (and supposedly less talented coaching?)?

Weren't you telling all of us that the Big East was down last year - so our accomplishments needed to be taken in stride last year?  So, I'm going to surmise that due to the Big East being "back" this year and the Number 1 conference - the sledding has been tougher this year - as evidenced by some pretty darn good teams hanging around the .500 level.  When a St. Johns can destroy a Duke, or a WVU a Purdue, or a UCONN on the road a Texas - well - there are 3 middle of the pack Big East teams that all beat top rung teams in the ACC, Big 12 and Big East.

[ChicosBailBonds]

I also remember Steve Novak. He was pretty good.

No question about it...then again, I recall seeing on numerous threads here that JFB was going to make the NBA after this year.  I laughed then, I still laugh now at that.

[ZiggysFryBoy]

Too many keystrokes.

MUSA.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Weren't you telling all of us that the Big East was down last year - so our accomplishments needed to be taken in stride last year?  So, I'm going to surmise that due to the Big East being "back" this year and the Number 1 conference - the sledding has been tougher this year - as evidenced by some pretty darn good teams hanging around the .500 level.  When a St. Johns can destroy a Duke, or a WVU a Purdue, or a UCONN on the road a Texas - well - there are 3 middle of the pack Big East teams that all beat top rung teams in the ACC, Big 12 and Big East.

I said the Big East was down last year AND it was a very soft bubble.  Incredibly, the bubble is even softer this year, which is hard to imagine.  The Big East is certainly better this year but is ranked between 1 and 2 depending on the rating system.  Ken Pom has Big East #2 for example.  http://www.kenpom.com/conf.php?c=BE

Of course, what doesn't fall in line for you is how we've done OUT OF CONFERENCE (let's take the Big East out of the equation)....we lost to a Gonzaga team that is hanging on for dear life, barely beat UW-Milwaukee during a stretch when they lost 5 of 7 games and 6 of 9, lost to Vanderbilt, lost to Duke, etc.  Are those bad losses?  They certainly aren't at all, well maybe the Gonzaga loss. But much like we've done in conference, we've also done the same thing out of conference.  That is, not be able to play consistently and win the games we've been accustomed to winning in the past few years.

In almost every other year in the past 5 we've had signature out of conference and conference wins.  Duke, Oklahoma State, Wisconsin, Xavier, etc, etc.  Its been our bugaboo this year, despite having all this talent. 

I only hope it's due to inexperience.  My worry is that it's tied to having great talent at certain positions but subpar talent at perhaps the most critical position in the college game.  If that's the case, you might as well have a Ferrari in your garage but no fuel anywhere to be able to drive it.

[Lennys Tap]

And?   I remember when we had 3 freshmen play major minutes not long ago...they won double digit games in the Big East conference, went to the NCAA tournament, etc,. 

And? When you have wildly unbalanced classes like that you ride a constant rollercoaster between no upperclassmen to lead and no underclassmen in the pipeline. St. John's is having a very good year being led by 8 or 9 seniors, but suffered for 3 years getting here. And their 9 man freshman class next year will be awesome, but unless Lavin runs several of them off the same thing will happen again. 

[ChicosBailBonds]

And? When you have wildly unbalanced classes like that you ride a constant rollercoaster between no upperclassmen to lead and no underclassmen in the pipeline. St. John's is having a very good year being led by 8 or 9 seniors, but suffered for 3 years getting here. And their 9 man freshman class next year will be awesome, but unless Lavin runs several of them off the same thing will happen again. 

Seems to me we have no problem running off players even when we don't have classes that big, and that includes both the current regime and the previous one.  Size of class be damned.