Harden To The Cubs, One Year Later

[Tugg Speedman]

Anyone remember the giddy excitement when the Cubs traded for Rich Harden exactly one year ago .... who could have been confused as the greatest pitcher since Sachel Paige?

http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=9526.0

How has this worked out?

What The Cubs Got ...

Rich Harden  The oft injured starter that would be a sure-fire #1 if he would only get healthy ... has been healthy this year (has only missed one start and repeatedly says he feels good).   At 6 and 6 with a 5.06 ERA he looks more like another faceless #3 or #4 starter that so many teams have.
Rating:  BUST


Chad Gaudin, the after thought reliever went to San Diego and has started 15 games.  At 4 and 8 with a 4.84 era, he might be having a better season than Harden.  The Cubs might have dumped the wrong pitcher in this trade
Rating:  Bad move for the Cubs.


Side Note:  The trade for Harden made Jason Marquis expendable.  Marquis is 11 and 6 with a sterling 3.65 era for the Rockies (a hitters park) and the ace of the staff.
Rating:  The move that will cost the Cubs the division


What the Cubs Gave Away ....

Matt Murton - traded to the Rockies.  Has played in 22 games this year, hitting .267 with 1 HR
Rating:  No loss for the Cubs

Eric Patterson - 8 ABs for the A's in 2009, hitting .125
Rating: No loss for the Cubs

Sean Gallagher - has appeared in eight games for the A's, 8.16 ERA
Rating: No loss for the Cubs

Josh Donaldson - Still a prospect in the A's minor league system (AA) hitting .263 with 5 HRs
Rating:  Still unknown


Summary of the trade ....

Cubs fans were excited about this trade as they believed they gave up nothing.  That is true (unless Donaldson develops for the A's).  The problem is the Cubs got nothing in return.  

However, this move forced the Cubs to get rid of Gaudin and Marquis.  The loss of these two might be the reason they do not win the division.  Further, they took on Harden's $7m salary and currently have the third highest payroll in baseball at $137 million (Red Sox and Yankees).  That along with the uncertain ownership situation boxes in the Cubs from making any moves before the July 31 deadline.

Winner, Billy Beane for dumping payroll on the Cubs ... never assume Billy Beane makes a bad trade!!!

[NavinRJohnson]

Meh...Seems like a net zero to me. Harden is nothing special, but what they gave up was nothing special (That includes Marquis and Gaudin). If they have to sign Gaudin and Marquis, that probably comes close to what they are paying Harden anyway.

They did not get the desired results in the playoffs last year, but that had little to do with that move.

[🏀]

Wow, this is quite a stretch.

1.) Marquis and Harden pitched in the same rotation in 2008. Sean Marshall was the odd man out despite putting up decent numbers, much better than Marquis. Why not move Marquis and his salary for the better lefty pitcher in Marshall?

2.) Take a look at Marquis 1st/2nd half splits. This is nothing new.

3.) There's a reason why Marquis is consisentely left off of playoff rosters, he's not a good pitcher.

4.) While Coors Field is a hitter's park, it's a devastating place for a hitter when the pitcher has an effective sinker ball, which Marquis has credited the light air for the pitch's effectiveness.


So really, losing Marquis has done nothing for the Cubs. The Cubs still are ahead in the trade.

[LastWarrior]

Anyone remember the giddy excitement when the Cubs traded for Rich Harden exactly one year ago .... who could have been confused as the greatest pitcher since Sachel Paige?

http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=9526.0

How has this worked out?

What The Cubs Got ...

Rich Harden  The oft injured starter that would be a sure-fire #1 if he would only get healthy ... has been healthy this year (has only missed one start and repeatedly says he feels good).   At 6 and 6 with a 5.06 ERA he looks more like another faceless #3 or #4 starter that so many teams have.
Rating:  BUST


Chad Gaudin, the after thought reliever went to San Diego and has started 15 games.  At 4 and 8 with a 4.84 era, he might be having a better season than Harden.  The Cubs might have dumped the wrong pitcher in this trade
Rating:  Bad move for the Cubs.


Side Note:  The trade for Harden made Jason Marquis expendable.  Marquis is 11 and 6 with a sterling 3.65 era for the Rockies (a hitters park) and the ace of the staff.
Rating:  The move that will cost the Cubs the division


What the Cubs Gave Away ....

Matt Murton - traded to the Rockies.  Has played in 22 games this year, hitting .267 with 1 HR
Rating:  No loss for the Cubs

Eric Patterson - 8 ABs for the A's in 2009, hitting .125
Rating: No loss for the Cubs

Sean Gallagher - has appeared in eight games for the A's, 8.16 ERA
Rating: No loss for the Cubs

Josh Donaldson - Still a prospect in the A's minor league system (AA) hitting .263 with 5 HRs
Rating:  Still unknown


Summary of the trade ....

Cubs fans were excited about this trade as they believed they gave up nothing.  That is true (unless Donaldson develops for the A's).  The problem is the Cubs got nothing in return.  

However, this move forced the Cubs to get rid of Gaudin and Marquis.  The loss of these two might be the reason they do not win the division.  Further, they took on Harden's $7m salary and currently have the third highest payroll in baseball at $137 million (Red Sox and Yankees).  That along with the uncertain ownership situation boxes in the Cubs from making any moves before the July 31 deadline.

Winner, Billy Beane for dumping payroll on the Cubs ... never assume Billy Beane makes a bad trade!!!

I told myself I wouldn't respond to this thread as your position is completely retarded but I can't help myself.

Harden was/ is a bust?  Really?  After the trade to the Cubs, the "bust" as you call him went 5-1 in 12 starts with a 1.78 era, 89 k's, in 71 innings.  He helped the Cubs win their second consecutive division title.  How you can call that a bust, is just moronic.  Did he win the Cubs the world series?  No... but is that why you're calling him a bust?  Let's not forget the reason the Cubs got swept in the playoffs last year was because of the offense, not the pitching.  This year is a different story for Harden but if you really think he's healthy, I've got a bridge to sell you!  He's in a free agent year... do you really think he wants to admit to being hurt again?

The prospects the Cubs gave up were just that... PROSPECTS.  Gallagher showed upside with the Cubs but has since fizzled out in the A's system and has hence been traded to the Padres.  Patterson & Murton, while showing some tools, proved to the Cubs that they were AAAA players.  Neither of them have been able to find any sort of ab's for the A's or Rockies. 

So in the end, it looks like the Cubs gave up a bunch of overhyped prospects for a dominant starter that led them to a division title.  $7MM for a pitcher of Harden's talent level is a steal and is not what's preventing the Cubs from making a deal.  If you want to point to bad contracts on the Cubs, you should start with the OF.  The Cubs got what they were looking for in this trade and Billy Beane picked up a few more minor leaguers.  Bad trade for the Cubs... hardly.

Furthermore, you think Marquis is gonna cost the Cubs the division?  Really... do you follow baseball?  The Cubs are among the NL leaders in QS in 2009.  Like the NL playoffs, the problem is not the pitching, it's the hitting.  As the rotation stands now, Marquis would be fight with Wells & Marshall for the 5th spot.  So how does Marquis win the Cubs the division?  He's a decent hitter but can't solve the team's offensive problems!

[Tugg Speedman]

Furthermore, you think Marquis is gonna cost the Cubs the division?  Really... do you follow baseball?  The Cubs are among the NL leaders in QS in 2009.  Like the NL playoffs, the problem is not the pitching, it's the hitting.  As the rotation stands now, Marquis would be fight with Wells & Marshall for the 5th spot.  So how does Marquis win the Cubs the division?  He's a decent hitter but can't solve the team's offensive problems!

Last year  the cubs won 97 games and took the division by 7.5 games.  Take Harden out of the mix and the outcome is identical, the Cubs win the division and lose in the first round.

Granted, Harden did earn his money last year, but is not this year.  He's a bust because the Cubs thought they were getting a quality #1 (or #1a).  Instead they got a #3 or #4, this year.  He's been nothing special in 2009.  He's the pitching version of Fukudome.

Marquis is 11 and 5 with a 3.65 ERA this year.  You think these are the stats for someone to be fighting with Wells and Marshall for the #5 spot?  If so, why isn't Harden in Iowa?

My conclusion holds


Let your head explode over this .... Looking at the Cubs move since Jan 1. 2008 ...

Harden trade made them part with Marquis ... mistake
Gaudin has better numbers than Hardin, should have never got rid of him.
Fukudome is a bust
Bradley is a bust.
Letting Kerry Wood go, and singing Gregg did nothing to improve the position
Trading Mark DeRosa was a mistake

In the last 18 months, Hendry made the team worse while increasing their payroll.  And, with new ownership coming in and having to borrow hundreds of millions to buy the team, the Cubs $137 million payroll cannot expand.  This year is their last chance to win the division.  Next year they are a 75 win team.

To be fair, on the positive side, moving Demspter to the rotation was brilliant.  Hoffpauir and Fox look serviceable.  But, these are not the kind of guys that win divisions (not yet at least).  These are the kind of guys that are "serviceable", meaning they do well for a third or fourth place team ... exactly what the Cubs have been this year.

[LastWarrior]

You stand by your conclusion?

First you say... "Cubs fans were excited about this trade as they believed they gave up nothing.  That is true (unless Donaldson develops for the A's).  The problem is the Cubs got nothing in return.  "

Then you come back and say... "Granted, Harden did earn his money last year, but is not this year."

Sounds to be like you're contradicting yourself.

"Letting Kerry Wood go, and singing Gregg did nothing to improve the position"... Really?  Comments like this show you don't follow baseball very closely.  Gregg has been dominant the last 2.5 months with an era around 1.75.  Wood has been a complete bust this year.

Bashing a rival team is only fun if you have your facts right and you're nowhere close on this one.

[🏀]

Marquis is 11 and 5 with a 3.65 ERA this year.  You think these are the stats for someone to be fighting with Wells and Marshall for the #5 spot?  If so, why isn't Harden in Iowa?

Marquis wouldn't be 11-5 with a 3.65 ERA at Wrigley.Wells would be ptiching above him with his 3.00 ERA.

[NavinRJohnson]

This thread has to be right up there with that of the Great Circus Parade.

[TallTitan34]

I hope if we make a trade before the deadline, that the player "busts" like Rich Harden did last year.

[Pakuni]

I hope if we make a trade before the deadline, that the player "busts" like Rich Harden did last year.

The notion that Rich Harden somehow propelled the Cubs into the playoffs is lunacy. The Cubs would have won that division last year with or without Rich Harden. For Pete's sake, they won the division by 7.5 games, despite playing .500 baseball down the stretch.
Harden was acquired to give the Cubs four solid starters for the playoffs, on the thinking that you'd rather have Rich Harden in your playoff rotation than Jason Marquis.
Perhaps that was solid thinking, but when it was time for Harden to step up when the Cubs needed him most, Harden couldn't even find the gumption to last five innings.
This here is an ugly line for a SP in an elimination game:
4.1 IP, 5 H, 3 R, 3 ER, 3 BB, 3 K
Way to give your team a chance.

Was it a bad trade for the Cubs? Perhaps not, mostly because Gallagher has not yet become what many expected. Then again, he's only 23 years old.
What we can say is that it hasn't been a good trade for the Cubs either. Harden flopped when the team needed him most - and at the time for which he was acquired - and so far this season he's been the equivalent of a shaky fifth starter.

[TallTitan34]

Hindsight is 20/20. Yes we would have won the divison without Harden but no one knew that at the time.

Plus he was a stud. Reading the post you'd think he was 3-8 last year.

[Tugg Speedman]

Your definition of bust and my appear to differ.  You're using the most extreme version of bust to justify you belief that the Harden trade was a good one.  I was very clear in my defintion twice ...  the Cubs thought they were getting a #1 starter, or at least a #1a.  How do I know this?  That is what Hendry said.  

Clearly he is not a #1 or #1a.  This year #1 is Lily and #1a is Big Z.  #3 is Dempster.  Harden is #4.  #4 = bust.

[Tugg Speedman]

How many teams trade four prospects for this kind of pitcher and then insist it was a good trade?

The Chicago Tribune
Cubs will try to slot Rich Harden to pitch night games
July 21, 2009

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/cubs/chi-21-cubs-bits-chicago-jul21,0,2601033.story

The Cubs, indeed, will try to accommodate Rich Harden's statistical idiosyncrasy.

Harden is 5-1 with a 2.41 earned-run average at night and 4-1 with a 2.16 ERA on the road.

Logically, that would make him a bad candidate for Wrigley Field day games. So ...

Harden will start Tuesday night in Philadelphia, then not pitch again until Monday against Houston at Wrigley Field, although that, at least, is a night game.

That would put him on pace to pitch again the following Saturday night in Miami.

"We're going to try to accommodate that [quirk] as much as we can," manager Lou Piniella said. "If we have an injury or something, we can't do anything about it."

----

Translation - Lou has 50% given up on Harden.

If it was so obvious that Marquis sinker would excel in the light air of Coors field, how come none of the basebsall genuses defending Harden did not see that he was incapbale of pitching before 3PM at home?

[ChicosBailBonds]

Like all trades (just like recruiting classes), shouldn't one wait multiple years to see where things shake out?

Let's look at the Angels trade of Kotchman to the Braves for Teixera.  Tex left the Angels so some will say that's a bust.  Maybe.  But it also provided room to bring up Kendry Morales at 1st base who has done very well.   So it's not always about who was traded but also what opportunities were presented for other players to develop.  There are many degrees to a trade that go well beyond just the players involved.

[TallTitan34]

I'd say the Brewers lost more than the Cubs did by trading for CC.  You lost both Matt LaPorta and CC Sabaitha while we still have Harden.

Sure you won the Wild Card but was that worth losing your future stud?

[wadesworld]

I'd say the Brewers lost more than the Cubs did by trading for CC.  You lost both Matt LaPorta and CC Sabaitha while we still have Harden.

Sure you won the Wild Card but was that worth losing your future stud?

The one who couldn't even stay up in the INDIANS organization?

[TallTitan34]

Haha you Brewer fans are hilarious.  Last year you talk him up and now you crap on him.  He'll be ready. Just give him time.

And if he never does become Major League ready maybe you misjudged him like all of the players you have slotted to fill your team in the upcoming years...

[Pakuni]

I'd say the Brewers lost more than the Cubs did by trading for CC.  You lost both Matt LaPorta and CC Sabaitha while we still have Harden.

Sure you won the Wild Card but was that worth losing your future stud?

The difference here is that without Sabathia, the Brewers don't make the playoffs. Harden was no such difference maker for the Cubs. They were playoff bound without him, and he did nothing for them once they got to the playoffs.

Also, keep in mind that while the Brewers did lose Sabathia to free agency, they received as compensation two high draft picks. While it remains to be seen whether either becomes the prospect LaPorta was/is, it would not be accurate to say the Brewers lost more than the Cubs did. And clearly the Brewers gained much more. They got a wild card appearance and two potential high-level prospects out of the deal. The Cubs got a few extra, unnecessary, regular season wins, a #5 starter for one season (at a $7 million price tag) and a tough, arguably no-win free agency decision come December.

For the record, I'm not a Brewers fan. But their minor league system has been light years ahead of the Cubs' in recent years.

[TallTitan34]

Considering the Brewers brought up Ryan Braun, Prince Fielder, etc. I won't argue that point.

I just don't think giving away LaPorta was worth a first round exit in the playoffs. The Brewers weren't set up for a deep playoff run even with CC.

The White Sox are in a similar position right now. If they are buyers they have a good shot at winning the division. If they do win the division they realize that they don't have the team to go deep into the postseason so they are considering selling.

[NYWarrior]

I just don't think giving away LaPorta was worth a first round exit in the playoffs. The Brewers weren't set up for a deep playoff run even with CC.

The White Sox are in a similar position right now. If they are buyers they have a good shot at winning the division. If they do win the division they realize that they don't have the team to go deep into the postseason so they are considering selling.

Until the Sheets injury last September the Brewers were most certainly set up for a deep playoff run (remember, Sheets pitched a complete game shutout last September about a week before his injury...they were indeed primed for a potentially memorable September).  Losing Sheets killed that team's chances.  As for LaPorta -- he remains a prospect/borderline suspect right now who fizzled in his first stint in the bigs (and like he was in Milwaukee, is blocked from significant ABs in Cleveland)......ultimately not a high price to pay by any historical measure.

As for the ChiSox -- buy, buy, buy.  They've been without their best hitter for two full months yet only trail the Tigers by one game.  With Quentin in the lineup the Sox have a row of mashers now that nobody else in the division can match.  Buerhle is an ace, Danks is solid, Jenks is very good.  Contrast that with the Tigers who have two ace starters in Verlander and Jackson, but have a terrible bullpen and just lost Zumaya again.  The ChiSox are 20-10 in their last 30 while the Tigers are treading water at 15-15.  Moreover, the ChiSox close with 15 of their last 26 at home while the Tigers close with 15 of their last 27 on the road.  Why on earth would a team like the Chicago White Sox sell?

The playoffs are a crapshoot...get in and see what happens.  The best team doesn't always win in baseball.

[reinko]

I just don't think giving away LaPorta was worth a first round exit in the playoffs. The Brewers weren't set up for a deep playoff run even with CC.

Most Brewer fans would disagree based simply on the fact we hadn't made a playoff appearance since 1982.  And if you look at the current attendance #'s and the city-wide energy for the Brewers, I think you would see a significant drop off if we didn't make that run last year.  Albeit, the run was short-lived.

[TallTitan34]

I know the playoffs are a crapshoot (see 2006 Cardinals) but a lot of White Sox fans and general manager Kenny Williams are being realistic.  Quniten, even before he was hurt this year, wasn't the same MVP player he was last year.  

In all likelyhood, if they do make the playoffs they don't have the team to win it all.  As a result they are strongly considering selling some of their assets in order to build a team in the future that CAN win it all.

I really like this about the Sox.  They are working for a World Series championship and not just a divisional or wild card win.

Last year it would have been an upset if Ben Sheets stayed healthy.

[TallTitan34]

I think you would see a significant drop off if we didn't make that run last year.

I'll agree with that. It's what the White Sox are worried about too.  How to you get the fans to come to the game when you start breaking up a team that 1 game out of first.

[wadesworld]

I was going to post exactly what pakuni and nywarrior posted.  The Brewers weren't set up for a long post-season run?  With CC and Sheets at the top of the staff, and the offense that the Brewers had last year, they weren't?  Wow.  Not to mention Parra had been pitching great through that point in the season, just flamed out at the end of the season.  I'd like to know what you consider to be made for a long post-season run.  I'm REALLY starting to question your baseball knowledge.  I thought your bias just hid your knowledge, but this just goes way beyond bias if you truly think they weren't.

Are you really wondering if the trade was even worth it?  We got 2 high draft picks out of it to go along with our 1st post season appearance in 26 years.

By the way this whole thread is just dumb.  Both trades worked out well for both teams.  The Cubs don't have exactly what they thought they would in Harden, and they babied him to save him for the playoffs, which didn't really help, Harden was very good in last year's regular season.  And CC had carried the Brewers into the playoffs.  To suggest either trade was bad (especially what CC did for the Brewers) is insane.

[NYWarrior]

I know the playoffs are a crapshoot (see 2006 Cardinals) but a lot of White Sox fans and general manager Kenny Williams are being realistic.  Quniten, even before he was hurt this year, wasn't the same MVP player he was last year.

It's not just the 06 Cardinals (and don't forget the 105 win Cards didn't win it all in '04)......how about how the 92 win Phillies taking the crown last year over the 97 win Rays while the the 100 win Angels & 95 win Red Sox watched from home?  The 91 win Marlins over the 101 win Yankees, the 87 win Yankees in 2000, the 90 win Braves over the 100 win Indians...on and on.   You've gotta be in it to win it.  

The White Sox have as good a chance as just about anybody to win -- one game out on July 21 with the team returning to health is no time to consider what might happen next year.....especially considering Dye, Konerko, Pierzynski and Thome are all on Father Time's Bad Side -- do u really think the ChiSox can sustain their success without major renovations?  Play to win now -- that team is built to win now in a very forgiving division.