Latest Notre Dame Scandal

[mu03eng]

Just so we're clear, there's no reason for Notre Dame to have told the county detective about the assault allegation any sooner. Essentially, what they're being ripped for here would be like criticizing the Chicago PD for not informing the Cook County Sheriff's Department of a crime. The ND police have jurisdiction over the case. They have no obligation - nor would it be standard procedure - for them to inform other police agencies every time a complaint is filed.

I concede the point, you are correct, ND need not report it to the local county sheriff.  Ultimately my point is that the article implies they didn't pass information onto the prosecutor any faster than they passed it onto the sheriff.  10-12 days to get information to a prosecutor is a long time, and only got there when it did because the suicide presumably sped up the process.

Again, I'm not saying ND did anything wrong, but it does need to be investigated because I think there is a larger pattern of control issues there.

[Blackhat]

The article says they passed info onto the prosecutor but implies it was given after the suicide.  It took them more than 10 days to pass information onto a prosecutor to decide how to move forward?  Again, I don't know that anything untoward is happening at ND with this stuff, but I think there is enough smoke to make it legit to search for fire.

What's the usual time frame for notifying prosecution?  It sounds like 10 days before the death, she accused, then you need to conduct an investigation, should a report have been passed on before that, I don't know.   I think a lot of people don't know but are making assumptions anyway.

[rugbydrummer]

It just goes to show that depression is a serious and very real condition, never to be taken lightly.  Also, the thought that someone would kill herself as a way to escape a lie is downright heinous.  So many women get attacked and many never tell anyone.  sorry menfolk, maybe you have been done wrong in the past, but i'm pretty sure the only time you'd worry about being assaulted is while behind bars.  the vast majority of women reporting these kinds of events are probably not lying about it, much less some highly involved church-going college girl who was bound for an RN degree. 

[ChicosBailBonds]

http://jezebel.com/5703316/prosecutor-speaks-out-on-notre-dame-rape-coverup

[GGGG]

So very sad. 

However, it is my understanding that ND police *did* notify St. Joseph's County officials contrary to the initial report in the Tribune.

[mu03eng]

So very sad. 

However, it is my understanding that ND police *did* notify St. Joseph's County officials contrary to the initial report in the Tribune.

Correct, but everything I've seen is they did so after this tragic event occurred.  Suspicious timing at best.

[Pakuni]

Correct, but everything I've seen is they did so after this tragic event occurred.  Suspicious timing at best.

Really it isn't.
Hate to rely on the old "Law and Order" intro ... but police investigate the crime, district attorneys prosecute. Police don't go running to the prosecutors office every time someone makes a complaint, especially not before the complaint is fully investigated.
It's  very much standard procedure for police in a case of this nature to compile all the evidence they can, and then take the entire case to the prosecutor's office for a decision whether or not to charge.

You know what would have happened had police gone to the prosecutor right after the complaint was filed? The prosecutor would have told them to go onvestigate and come back with some evidence.
I have no clue whether a cover up happened here or not. But based on what I know of the criminal justice system (no, not as a defendant), nothing all that unusual here.

[GGGG]

The issue isn't prosecution. The county has a sex assault unit just for these cases. The municipalities agreed to its creation.

[ZiggysFryBoy]

why was chico's reading jezebel.com???    

lookin more and more like Rosie every day.   

[🏀]

why was chico's reading jezebel.com???    

lookin more and more like Rosie every day.   

To be fair, it was written by Jezebel but was also posted on Deadspin.

[StillAWarrior]

To be fair, it was written by Jezebel but was also posted on Deadspin.

Actually, it was written by an attorney for his website and republished by Jezebel.  I know very, very little about what happened in the case of Lizzy Seeberg, but the author of that "letter" doesn't either.  He admits as much in the comments when he was called out by a detective for some of the things he said (particularly that he, as a prosecutor, would have had "much to go on" to prove the case).  Without reviewing anything more than news reports (which have virtually no information about the facts of the case) he assumes the allegations are true because she reported promptly, she had no motive to lie and most reports of this nature are true.

It's a terrible tragedy, and I pray for this girl and her family.  I have no idea whether the allegations are true or not because I have so little information.  I'm sure that ND (and MU and any other college) has many allegations of sexual assault, and I simply do not know if this one was handled differently than others by the NDPD.  I'm not even sure of the nature or severity of the assault because I've read at least one column that specifically states that she was not raped.  For all I know, the allegation is that she was groped.  I'm not justifying that or defending it in any way whatsoever, and I'm not suggesting that it is not an assault, but I'm not sure that such an allegation typically would be turned over to a prosecutor's office or an SVU.

Over the years, I've seen ND athletes get in trouble for things that probably could have been covered up.  Frankly, I've read in newspapers about things that ND athletes did that are similar to things that MU athletes allegedly have done that are not publicized and are only spoken of in hushed tones on this board.  I'm not naive enough to think that ND is above a cover-up, but I'm also not convinced that that happened here.  I'm not saying that they didn't, but I don't have enough information for me to come to that conclusion.

[TallTitan34]

Here is the parents account of the story, detailing Notre Dame's lack of effort in investigating the case.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/ct-met-notre-dame-seeberg-20101216,0,4567999.story?page=1

[PaintTouches]

Here is the parents account of the story, detailing Notre Dame's lack of effort in investigating the case.http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/ct-met-notre-dame-seeberg-20101216,0,4567999.story?page=1

No matter what your personal beliefs in the case are you have to admit that was a very well written story. Thoroughly researched, explained and detailed. Definitely worth taking the 10 minutes to read it

[TallTitan34]

It's amazing that the girls parents had to ask police to investigate basic things such as cell phone records. 

[Pakuni]

http://www.chicagobreakingnews.com/2010/12/no-charges-in-alleged-notre-dame-attack.html

No charges. Prosecutors say, among other things, her account didn't mesh with known facts and, for obvious reasons, there is no complaining witness to testify.

And, forgive me if I come off as an ogre here, but what we're talking about here is, at worst, a guy copping a feel above the waist when the girl didn't want that. Wrong? Possibly. Criminal? Possibly. Rape? No.

The girl's death is a tragedy, and I certainly don't blame her parents for being angry. But I don't quite see this as the scandal so many want it to be. Girl says guy grabbed her chest. Guy, very likely, says he didn't. No witnesses, no physical injury, no physical evidence. Exactly what would you expect the cops and prosecutors to do?

[MUBurrow]

+1 on the article being well done. given the sensitivity of the issues here, I've poured over this post for awhile, but i think this story really does warrant a look at ND culture.

The article emphasizes the generational value of ND to this family, and I think thats important because it reflects the remarkable deference that ND is accustomed to receiving that other institutions aren't afforded.  This is aside from the admittedly tenuous connection between the alleged sexual assault and the young woman's death, but instead to look at the lack of institutional transparency, and prima facie credence ND has.  
 
According to this account, the victim reported the claim on September 1.  The first action from the University was to contact the alleged assailant's friend, and tell him not to bring the football team into this matter.  Not until September 15 did the University even approach the player, 5 days after the young woman's death.

It seems fairly clear from this timeline, and the other 'miscommunications' between ND police and investigators, that ND did not want to know what happened. I'm not saying they are responsible for this girl's death, or even that in the end the player should be suspended, etc.  But instead, it seems fairly obvious that they did not pursue this claim with rigor - especially considering that their first contact was with the player's friend for implicating the football team, and that it is impossible to know if an investigation would have taken place had the young woman not pressed the issue/passed away.  
While this malaise may exist in other sporting power institutions, the mission that ND claims has built up its 'atmosphere unlike any other' is inherently undermined by this, as it was by the President's statement after Declan Sullivan's death.  But over the years, they have built up such an impenetrable shield of support, they are ironically no longer held to the same standards of other institutions.  Even in his statements, the young woman's father is careful to label ND as a great institution.  But are they still really earning that label, or are they getting by on their laurels?

[TallTitan34]

Essentially no charges are being filed because the girl is dead and she can't defend herself in court.

The girl sounds like she was pretty messed up before this even happened, so while it may just seem like a guy copping a feel to you, it may have really messed this girl up, to the point of her killing herself. 

Say it did happen?  The girl talks to authorities who do little to nothing to investigate.  She then recieves a text message saying not to mess with Notre Dame football.  That could have been enough to push her over the edge.

[Pakuni]

Essentially no charges are being filed because the girl is dead and she can't defend herself in court.

That's not exactly true. Even had the girl not taken her own life, this case was going nowhere. No witnesses, no physical evidence, no physical injury and a complaining witness with a history of mental illness. The circumstances ooze reasonable doubt.
That's not to say what she's making this up. For all I know, it happened exactly as she said it did. But no prosecutor in his right mind files charges under these circumstances. The totality of the evidence comes from a single witness who any objective jury would see as unreliable.

The girl sounds like she was pretty messed up before this even happened, so while it may just seem like a guy copping a feel to you, it may have really messed this girl up, to the point of her killing herself. 

Nobody's disputing that. What's in dispute, however, is  a) whether a crime occurred and b) whether anyone did anything inappropriate in investigating her complaint. Keep in mind, you've only heard what her parents want you to know. I'm not suggesting they're lying to you, but they obviously have an agenda driven by their understandable anger and pain about the situation and they're only releasing the information they want out there. The only people who've heard both sides, i.e. the cops and prosecutors, each decided in relatively short order that there was no reason to pursue this further.

She then recieves a text message saying not to mess with Notre Dame football.  That could have been enough to push her over the edge.

A text message from an acquaintance, not the university. When the university learned of the texts, it told the kid to knock it off... which any law enforcement agency would do in that situation.
Regardless, it's tragic that this girl took her life. It's also apparent that she had significant issues well before this incident, so trying to blame Notre Dame for her death is like blaming the financial meltdown on the last family to get a subprime mortgage in the summer of 2008.

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

The article emphasizes the generational value of ND to this family

I'd like to suggest the family look in the mirror as a result of this "generational value." Do you think the family was overly impressed with football players? If they're like most creepy ND fans, I certainly do. Perhaps generational value contributed to this situation?

Notre Dame and their alums are about as creepy as it gets, if you ask me.

[Blackhat]

This girl went to St.Mary's college.

Press Release from St. Joe's county prosecutor

http://media.trb.com/media/acrobat/2010-12/272335660-16095122.pdf

[StillAWarrior]

Press Release from St. Joe's county prosecutor

http://media.trb.com/media/acrobat/2010-12/272335660-16095122.pdf

That press release from the county prosecutor (not Notre Dame) gets to the issue I asked about a couple of weeks ago.  The player was accused of touching her breasts.  I hope we can all agree that it's inappropriate for a man to touch a woman's breasts against her will, and can further agree that in many cases it is a crime.  But for those who lambasted ND for not immediately turning this over to the county prosecutor or an SVU, I doubt similar allegations would typically be turned over to those agencies.  I suspect that until this poor girl's tragic suicide, this allegation got about the same attention as other similar allegations -- very, very little.  We can all debate whether that is an appropriate level of response to an allegation of this nature, but I honestly don't think this had much to do with the football team.  It's the aftermath that makes this such a tragic case, but I suspect that this report wasn't even in the top ten most serious issues reported to the NDPD that day.  I don't say this to minimize what happened, and I really am saddened by what happened to this poor child and pray for her family. 

[TallTitan34]

Explain this Pakuni......

http://www.politicsdaily.com/2010/12/17/lizzy-seebergs-family-feels-violated-notre-dame-football-star/

Notre Dame's general counsel, Marianne Corr, had this message for them: "I hope the Seebergs know how bad this could get for them'' if they ever went public.

The accused, a star whom head coach Brian Kelly has publicly praised in interviews both before and after Lizzy's death, has a history of behavior problems that continued even after he was recruited by Notre Dame; he was suspended during his senior year in high school for throwing a desk at a teacher who'd taken away his cell phone

He was expelled from middle school in the 7th grade for threatening a girl.

He had picked up a girl in their class and thrown her -- tossed her like you'd toss a piece of paper. He was bigger than everybody else, and violent.

It's not even a he said she said because they didn't even talk to him until 15 days after the incident!  How do they know what his version of events was?

[TallTitan34]

Also that article says not only did the player cop a feel but he threw her. 

[StillAWarrior]

Explain this Pakuni......

http://www.politicsdaily.com/2010/12/17/lizzy-seebergs-family-feels-violated-notre-dame-football-star/

It's not even a he said she said because they didn't even talk to him until 15 days after the incident!  How do they know what his version of events was?

The article posted recently was much better written than this.  That quote from ND's general counsel is awful -- but unfortunately, the author doesn't make clear whether it's an actual quote (i.e., the actual words used by the ND General Counsel) or whether it's the Seeberg's attorney's characterization of what was said by ND's General Counsel.  I suspect the latter.  It looks bad in either instance, but as a reader, I shouldn't have to wonder.

Looking at it again, it's also odd where the quotation ends and what is added after after the quote.  I'm not defending ND, but the way that sentence is written is both ambiguous (i.e., who is supposedly speaking those words) and odd (i.e., the most incriminating part coming after the quotes).

[Pakuni]

Explain this Pakuni......

Explain what, exactly? That the anonymous "mother of a former classmate of the accused" (now that's some reputable reporting) said this kid was a bully in 5th grade? Well, sheesh, that must make him a rapist.

Yes, the article did claim (contrary to what the St. Joseph County prosecutor reported) that he "threw her off" him to answer a cell phone. Even if true, doesn't that run a bit contrary to the notion that this guy was some kind of crazed, violent rapist? Fortunately, I have no experience with crazed, violent rapists, but I'd be surprised if they often halt mid-rape to answer the phone.

I just don't understand what you'd expect the university to do here. You've got a non-student with a longstanding history of mental illness making an unprovable allegation against a student. Should they expel the accused based on that? Kick him off the football team? Arrest him?

As I've said repeatedly, it's possible this kid did something wrong. Or it's possible that a troubled young lady had an unpleasant encounter and decided to call it rape. But to the best of my knowledge, we don't - or at least we strive not to - arrest/charge/punish people based on accusations alone.
Or does due process not count of football players at Notre Dame?