MUScoop
MUScoop => The Superbar => Topic started by: rocket surgeon on April 19, 2017, 06:25:38 AM
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http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/19191248/former-new-england-patriots-te-aaron-hernandez-found-dead-prison-cell
i was wondering how long he could take it, knowing he would never see the outside world again. drugs and egos just do not mix-who really won this p!ssing contest? i doubt he ever got the proper guidance he needed or he was just incapable of humility...we'll never know.
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Heard he was hung, hey?
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Taxpayers caugt a break, ai na?
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Taxpayers caugt a break, ai na?
a break would have been doing this before last week's trial even started, ai na?
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Taxpayers caugt a break, ai na?
Right. Cause prisons don't have set budgets.
Each citizen of Mass. will receive .0001 cent back on their taxes this year.
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This will get very interesting, by MA law, his murder conviction is now voided because it was under appeal, and lawyers could argue the Pats are now on the hook for portions of his contract...
Through an obscure and rarely invoked Massachusetts legal principle called abatement ab initio, because Hernandez had not exhausted all his appeals on his murder conviction, that conviction is essentially now voided. The practical effect of this is that evidence from Hernandez’s criminal trial cannot be used in any potential civil trials against his estate.
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I'm not a death-penalty guy, and I generally consider myself a sympathetic guy. Nevertheless, I am having trouble whipping up any sympathy here. He had the world in his back pocket and he alone forked it up.
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One of the most heinous arguments for the death penalty IMO is that it "saves the taxpayers money."
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I'm not a death-penalty guy, and I generally consider myself a sympathetic guy. Nevertheless, I am having trouble whipping up any sympathy here. He had the world in his back pocket and he alone forked it up.
Right. Don't have sympathy for Aaron Hernandez. He was far from a sympathetic person.
At the same time, it's kind of crappy to celebrate a person's suicide or revel in it as some kind of lucky tax break.
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One of the most heinous arguments for the death penalty IMO is that it "saves the taxpayers money."
It's not only heinous, but it's patently false.
Death penalty cases are far more expensive to try, the appeals are longer and more costly, and the expense of maintaining a death row is well above that of the general prison population.
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I obviously don't think suicide is ever an answer to one's problems, but I'm not going to say every suicide is an act of a coward. Some people are dealt really crappy hands in life and I can't imagine how tough some burdens are to overcome. But what Hernandez has done is show he's as big of a coward as you will ever see. His problems were all his own doing. He took multiple lives from this earth, caused tragedy for those families, and now can't live with those consequences.
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Right. Don't have sympathy for Aaron Hernandez. He was far from a sympathetic person.
At the same time, it's kind of crappy to celebrate a person's suicide or revel in it as some kind of lucky tax break.
Agreed. I also agree with wades' last post.
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I obviously don't think suicide is ever an answer to one's problems, but I'm not going to say every suicide is an act of a coward. Some people are dealt really crappy hands in life and I can't imagine how tough some burdens are to overcome. But what Hernandez has done is show he's as big of a coward as you will ever see. His problems were all his own doing. He took multiple lives from this earth, caused tragedy for those families, and now can't live with those consequences.
Every day 22 former service members commit suicide. That is 35% higher than the next highest demographic and almost 65% higher than the general population.
I assist with the Seattle VA Suicide Prevention Program and know that the risk factors include being male, single, former enlisted, and within 4 years separation from active duty.
What is interesting is that in total more non-deployers commit suicide but the rate for those who served in actual combat operations is 71% higher. Also, Purple Heart awardees have the highest suicide rate among veterans with a preponderance among those who are in both mental health treatment and prosthetic rehabilitation.
Suicide may be the act of a coward but that is hardly universal. I personally knew three Ranger-tabbed warriors who were absolutely fearless in the field but who struggled with life beyond the war and chose to eat a bullet. I could guess as to the why but none of us really knows. And the fact is that while help is available many see such services, especially mental health therapy, as a sign of weakness and even defeat.
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I suppose it is fair sometimes to say suicide is an act of a coward. However, I believe in many cases that makes about as much sense as saying, "a high fever is the act of a coward" or "nausea is the act of a coward." Sadly, suicide often is a symptom of a disease. And, it's treatable. Please, if you have suicidal thoughts, seek help.
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I obviously don't think suicide is ever an answer to one's problems, but I'm not going to say every suicide is an act of a coward. Some people are dealt really crappy hands in life and I can't imagine how tough some burdens are to overcome. But what Hernandez has done is show he's as big of a coward as you will ever see. His problems were all his own doing. He took multiple lives from this earth, caused tragedy for those families, and now can't live with those consequences.
Has it been established that it was a suicide and not a prison-house murder made to look like a suicide?
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Has it been established that it was a suicide and not a prison-house murder made to look like a suicide?
He was locked in his own single jail cell with items lodging the cell door shut.
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I suppose it is fair sometimes to say suicide is an act of a coward. However, I believe in many cases that makes about as much sense as saying, "a high fever is the act of a coward" or "nausea is the act of a coward." Sadly, suicide often is a symptom of a disease. And, it's treatable. Please, if you have suicidal thoughts, seek help.
No doubt. Just in this case it is my opinion that this guy had the world in his hands and everything in front of him and willingly chose to ruin it all, ruin other peoples' lives, and couldn't live with the consequences of his insane actions.
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No doubt. Just in this case it is my opinion that this guy had the world in his hands and everything in front of him and willingly chose to ruin it all, ruin other peoples' lives, and couldn't live with the consequences of his insane actions.
The word "willingly" stands out in this post. I'm far from convinced that a person who acts like Hernandez is clear of mental issues and just so happens to be a bad seed who willingly destroys lives. When Hernandez was 16, his father, with whom he was very close, passed away after routine surgery and his mother later married an abusive ex-con. Those types of things can take a toll on a young man's psyche. I'm not trying to defend or excuse Hernandez, but I just don't see this as a simple case of a guy who had it all but made some horrible decisions. I believe he had mental issues and possibly CTE.
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the mentality to take someone else's life because they "mean mugged" you or "diss'ed" you is incomprehensible. where does one start...it seems to me that as society has lost a belief system in a higher power, there is no sense of wrong before a life is taken. there may be a sense one did something wrong, but the feelings of guilt or remorse are foreign to these people
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Every day 22 former service members commit suicide. That is 35% higher than the next highest demographic and almost 65% higher than the general population.
I assist with the Seattle VA Suicide Prevention Program and know that the risk factors include being male, single, former enlisted, and within 4 years separation from active duty.
What is interesting is that in total more non-deployers commit suicide but the rate for those who served in actual combat operations is 71% higher. Also, Purple Heart awardees have the highest suicide rate among veterans with a preponderance among those who are in both mental health treatment and prosthetic rehabilitation.
Suicide may be the act of a coward but that is hardly universal. I personally knew three Ranger-tabbed warriors who were absolutely fearless in the field but who struggled with life beyond the war and chose to eat a bullet. I could guess as to the why but none of us really knows. And the fact is that while help is available many see such services, especially mental health therapy, as a sign of weakness and even defeat.
Sobering post, Crash.
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the mentality to take someone else's life because they "mean mugged" you or "diss'ed" you is incomprehensible. where does one start...it seems to me that as society has lost a belief system in a higher power, there is no sense of wrong before a life is taken. there may be a sense one did something wrong, but the feelings of guilt or remorse are foreign to these people
Counterpoint:
https://mises.org/blog/fbi-us-homicide-rate-51-year-low
"As Pew has reported in recent years, in fact, the American public is "unaware" that the homicide rate in the United States has fallen by 49 percent over the past twenty years."
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I'm curious to see if his brain is examined for CTE. His death doesn't seem related to symptoms of CTE, so it would be interesting to see if he has it.
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The word "willingly" stands out in this post. I'm far from convinced that a person who acts like Hernandez is clear of mental issues and just so happens to be a bad seed who willingly destroys lives. When Hernandez was 16, his father, with whom he was very close, passed away after routine surgery and his mother later married an abusive ex-con. Those types of things can take a toll on a young man's psyche. I'm not trying to defend or excuse Hernandez, but I just don't see this as a simple case of a guy who had it all but made some horrible decisions. I believe he had mental issues and possibly CTE.
Fair point. Anybody who murders someone has something going on in their head. But I think there's an aura of invincibility around a lot of these professional athletes and they feel they can do pretty much whatever they want to. What is logical to your "everyday" person is not the same as many of these professional athletes and entertainers. What my response would be to someone who bumps into me at a bar and how some of these guys respond to the same thing are so vastly different, and it doesn't even have to be to the extreme that Hernandez took it. They just live in a different world.
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Counterpoint:
https://mises.org/blog/fbi-us-homicide-rate-51-year-low
"As Pew has reported in recent years, in fact, the American public is "unaware" that the homicide rate in the United States has fallen by 49 percent over the past twenty years."
you are right. most people would guess the opposite. but, rate vs. numbers? i'm thinking when it hits close to home-doesn't really matter.
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you are right. most people would guess the opposite. but, rate vs. numbers? i'm thinking when it hits close to home-doesn't really matter.
We know more because we have easier access to information.
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Reports are that he took K2, synthetic marijuana (which, for the record, is nothing like the true jazz cabbage that we know and love). That crap can and does send people into psychotic breaks. So this event makes more sense now. Good riddance in any case.
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No doubt. Just in this case it is my opinion that this guy had the world in his hands and everything in front of him and willingly chose to ruin it all, ruin other peoples' lives, and couldn't live with the consequences of his insane actions.
I agree with all of this.
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where does one start...it seems to me that as society has lost a belief system in a higher power, there is no sense of wrong before a life is taken.
Please.
One doesn't need to believe in a higher power to have a sense of morality and an ability to judge right from wrong. I don't need to go into a rant about all the killing in the name of an effen higher power, do I?
I am a proud, very moral atheist. By the way most define "Christian acts," I am more Christian than a whole lot of people who claim to be Christian - including the effen leader of the free world.
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Please.
One doesn't need to believe in a higher power to have a sense of morality and an ability to judge right from wrong. I don't need to go into a rant about all the killing in the name of an effen higher power, do I?
I am a proud, very moral atheist. By the way most define "Christian acts," I am more Christian than a whole lot of people who claim to be Christian - including the effen leader of the free world.
Plus an awful lot of people who believe in a higher power also believe in the death penalty.
But that's OK as long as THEY get to decide who to kill.
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In other words, some people in the world commit violent acts. Some do it because they have lost their moral moorings, some because they are evil sociopaths, some in a momentary fit of passion, some because they believe it to be the will of a higher power. In the end, it is still an act of violence toward another.
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In other words, some people in the world commit violent acts. Some do it because they have lost their moral moorings, some because they are evil sociopaths, some in a momentary fit of passion, some because they believe it to be the will of a higher power. In the end, it is still an act of violence toward another.
Yes. Thank you.
I just hate it when folks boil these heinous acts down to lack of belief in God. The most "religious" people in the world are those on death row.
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Yes. Thank you.
I just hate it when folks boil these heinous acts down to lack of belief in God. The most "religious" people in the world are those on death row.
Being "religious" and being religious are vastly different.
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Thought-provoking article :
http://sports.yahoo.com/news/aaron-hernandez-exhibited-slightest-change-final-days-143616551.html
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Thought-provoking article :
http://sports.yahoo.com/news/aaron-hernandez-exhibited-slightest-change-final-days-143616551.html
Thanks for this, as it did spur a thought/memory for me.
Years ago my cousin committed suicide. He lost his job in the Enron blowup, including his life savings/pension wiped out as all were tied to its valueless stock. For many months he was withdrawn and very depressed...we all were worried. Then...oddly...he seemed to snap out of it... for 2 to 3 weeks, he was smiling and engaged with others and life in general. He placed a very upbeat tc to his mom....and a few minutes later...he killed himself.
Its very very hard to think/say this ....but in retrospect we believed he had decided on suicide a few weeks before and found the burdens worries burdens lifted and freed him....maybe Aaron's upbeat change in the last few weeks paralleled my cousin's ....when you know you're going to go...where is there any continuing worry?
As the MASH song says Suicide is painless...It only takes a moment.
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Please.
One doesn't need to believe in a higher power to have a sense of morality and an ability to judge right from wrong. I don't need to go into a rant about all the killing in the name of an effen higher power, do I?
I am a proud, very moral atheist. By the way most define "Christian acts," I am more Christian than a whole lot of people who claim to be Christian - including the effen leader of the free world.
My comment wasn't meant to say the decrease in society's emphasis on religion or even Christianity for that matter is the SOLE reason for someone to do heinous acts. I also was not directing my comment toward atheists. It's just my feeling that as religion seems to be de-emphasized today, there Has been a rise in some nasty nasty stuff. Yes, we are privy to more information and more quickly. No, we are not going to hone this in on religious vs. non-religious.
If one doesn't believe there will be any consequences for his/her actions, you will see more of it. With religion and a higher power, God for me, I believe that I am going to have to someday answer to what I've done here on earth, whether or not my action was called out or not. The true test of a good person is what he/she does when others are not looking. Forgiveness and humility play a big role here as well. Of course there are many religious people on death row. bc used to carry a bible around too, when it was convenient...We are going to find exceptions with many things.
To be fair then jockey, I see your death penalty and raise you with abortion...decisions, Eyn'a?
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My comment wasn't meant to say the decrease in society's emphasis on religion or even Christianity for that matter is the SOLE reason for someone to do heinous acts. I also was not directing my comment toward atheists. It's just my feeling that as religion seems to be de-emphasized today, there Has been a rise in some nasty nasty stuff. Yes, we are privy to more information and more quickly. No, we are not going to hone this in on religious vs. non-religious.
If one doesn't believe there will be any consequences for his/her actions, you will see more of it. With religion and a higher power, God for me, I believe that I am going to have to someday answer to what I've done here on earth, whether or not my action was called out or not. The true test of a good person is what he/she does when others are not looking. Forgiveness and humility play a big role here as well. Of course there are many religious people on death row. bc used to carry a bible around too, when it was convenient...We are going to find exceptions with many things.
To be fair then jockey, I see your death penalty and raise you with abortion...decisions, Eyn'a?
You said you weren't gonna "hone this in on religious vs. non-religious" ... and then you did.
You brought it up in the first place; I didn't.
IMHO, your argument is ridiculous. All one has to do is point at all the perv priests - these were men who spent their entire lives being super-religious. Where was their moral compass? Where was their concern about "consequences"?
I could go on and on and on, but I won't. Remember, you brought it up. Ridiculous.
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I'm curious to see if his brain is examined for CTE. His death doesn't seem related to symptoms of CTE, so it would be interesting to see if he has it.
“Now that the cause and manner of death have been determined, the brain will be released to Boston University’s Chronic Traumatic Encephalopathy Center as Mr. Hernandez’s family wishes"
https://www.yahoo.com/news/did-brain-injury-contribute-aaron-163935820.html
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“Now that the cause and manner of death have been determined, the brain will be released to Boston University’s Chronic Traumatic Encephalopathy Center as Mr. Hernandez’s family wishes"
https://www.yahoo.com/news/did-brain-injury-contribute-aaron-163935820.html
I just hope Igor doesn't bring it to Dr. Frankenstein by accident!
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You said you weren't gonna "hone this in on religious vs. non-religious" ... and then you did.
You brought it up in the first place; I didn't.
IMHO, your argument is ridiculous. All one has to do is point at all the perv priests - these were men who spent their entire lives being super-religious. Where was their moral compass? Where was their concern about "consequences"?
I could go on and on and on, but I won't. Remember, you brought it up. Ridiculous.
We are going to find exceptions in most things. Many of those priests who obviously abused their positions of "religiosity" for selfish means became priests for the "opportunity". Why do bank robbers rob banks?
Read my statement one more time, a little more carefully before you try to use it to beat me over the head with it-I didn't say "I" wasn't going to "hone...". What I meant was, WE are not going to try to explain all of this off as religion/non-religion(atheism). But yes, I did go on from a religious standpoint. But one could also take a different approach and not be wrong as well. This isn't a one size fits all. I just stated my opinion from a religious point of view. And I guess I'm rediculous? I sense your statements are a little biased from past disagreements and it's sometimes hard for some to separate those.
Ya know, they say in order to be a good golfer, you have to have controlled amnesia. I am far from a "good" golfer. Decent enough to enjoy the game enough to take my wife and me to places I wouldn't otherwise have gone, but in order to enjoy the golf enough to keep coming back for more, I've developed a pretty good sense of amnesia. Try it sometime and you might like yourself a little more
Love, boo-boo
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A couple of comments:
1) I have a great deal of compassion for the survivors -- the families of the men who were slain by Mr. Hernandez, as well as the family of Mr. Hernandez himself. I trust God will have Mercy and give them strength.
2) Mr. Hernandez was judged guilt of the act in a criminal court. His punishment protected society from his actions. But, none of us are God and none of us are in a position to Judge. So let's let God do Her job and let's us do our's.
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I just hope Igor doesn't bring it to Dr. Frankenstein by accident!
"Abby Normal."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yH97lImrr0Q
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We are going to find exceptions in most things. Many of those priests who obviously abused their positions of "religiosity" for selfish means became priests for the "opportunity". Why do bank robbers rob banks?
Read my statement one more time, a little more carefully before you try to use it to beat me over the head with it-I didn't say "I" wasn't going to "hone...". What I meant was, WE are not going to try to explain all of this off as religion/non-religion(atheism). But yes, I did go on from a religious standpoint. But one could also take a different approach and not be wrong as well. This isn't a one size fits all. I just stated my opinion from a religious point of view. And I guess I'm rediculous? I sense your statements are a little biased from past disagreements and it's sometimes hard for some to separate those.
Ya know, they say in order to be a good golfer, you have to have controlled amnesia. I am far from a "good" golfer. Decent enough to enjoy the game enough to take my wife and me to places I wouldn't otherwise have gone, but in order to enjoy the golf enough to keep coming back for more, I've developed a pretty good sense of amnesia. Try it sometime and you might like yourself a little more
Love, boo-boo
I took your advice and decided to re-read your earlier comment:
it seems to me that as society has lost a belief system in a higher power, there is no sense of wrong before a life is taken. there may be a sense one did something wrong, but the feelings of guilt or remorse are foreign to these people
Your later attempts to explain what you "really meant" sounded kind of like a Melissa McCarthy bit on SNL.
Sorry, rocket, but I still find it ridiculous that you target society moving away from God as a reason for the kind of thing Hernandez did.
I'm not easily offended, but if I were, I would be offended by the inference that people who lack belief in a higher power are somehow more prone to committing heinous acts. Again, I think it would be pretty easy to discuss all of the heinous acts done in the name of a higher power.
Finally, who are "these people"? Those who lack belief in a higher power and therefore are unable to feel guilt or remorse for the heinous acts they commit?
Try again.
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I am a proud, very moral atheist. By the way most define "Christian acts," I am more Christian than a whole lot of people who claim to be Christian - including the effen leader of the free world.
Pride and a feeling of moral superiority are common flaws in those on either extreme on the "belief spectrum". Thanks for reminding we inferiors who lack your certitude.
But when you're done patting yourself on the back, maybe a little reflection is in order. Why do you have the borderline pathological need to bring up politics/the "effen" president in a politics free zone at every (made up) opportunity?
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Pride and a feeling of moral superiority are common flaws in those on either extreme on the "belief spectrum". Thanks for reminding we inferiors who lack your certitude.
But when you're done patting yourself on the back, maybe a little reflection is in order. Why do you have the borderline pathological need to bring up politics/the "effen" president in a politics free zone at every (made up) opportunity?
Cuz he can, and as with most scofflaws, even da moral ones
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The latest wrinkle:
http://www.newsweek.com/aaron-hernandez-hidden-sexuality-murder-police-587879
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The latest wrinkle:
http://www.newsweek.com/aaron-hernandez-hidden-sexuality-murder-police-587879
brings up an interesting dynamic-more post football brain issues, drugs n alcohol, personal or societal norms, life behind bars...people will be scrambling for reasons.
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RIP
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The latest wrinkle:
http://www.newsweek.com/aaron-hernandez-hidden-sexuality-murder-police-587879
I'm sorry, but what absolute garbage. You think that might have made its way into discovery if it could stand up as something other than slander? One thing they didn't have (other than a gun) in Odin's murder is a really clear motive. The fact that this is coming out now tells me all I need to know.
Now, the circumstantial evidence leads me to #respecttheprocess and believe his guilt in the first murder, but this still amounts to slander.
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Pride and a feeling of moral superiority are common flaws in those on either extreme on the "belief spectrum". Thanks for reminding we inferiors who lack your certitude.
But when you're done patting yourself on the back, maybe a little reflection is in order. Why do you have the borderline pathological need to bring up politics/the "effen" president in a politics free zone at every (made up) opportunity?
Lenny, what's your problem? I've never had any beefs with you, and I don't know where this is coming from.
I don't like inferences that only religious people have morals and ethics - which is exactly what rocket was doing. And out of that, somehow you get that I have feelings of moral superiority? Jeesh. Nowhere did I say I was more moral than all Christians or even most Christians. I would have no way of determining that. What I said was that I, despite being a dreaded atheist, am more "Christian" than a lot of people who claim to be. I stand by that.
As for including our so-called president in my comment ... I admit it is a weakness of mine. He is a horrible person and it bothers me that people who care about their fellow man (and woman) would vote for a dreadful human being like him. I should keep it off this board, yes. We all have our weaknesses ... except maybe you, I guess.
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Lenny, what's your problem? I've never had any beefs with you, and I don't know where this is coming from.
I don't like inferences that only religious people have morals and ethics - which is exactly what rocket was doing. And out of that, somehow you get that I have feelings of moral superiority? Jeesh. Nowhere did I say I was more moral than all Christians or even most Christians. I would have no way of determining that. What I said was that I, despite being a dreaded atheist, am more "Christian" than a lot of people who claim to be. I stand by that.
As for including our so-called president in my comment ... I admit it is a weakness of mine. He is a horrible person and it bothers me that people who care about their fellow man (and woman) would vote for a dreadful human being like him. I should keep it off this board, yes. We all have our weaknesses ... except maybe you, I guess.
+1000
(https://media.tenor.co/images/1b56586b7a6359b5f1258a6aabbfaa77/tenor.gif)
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I'm sorry, but what absolute garbage. You think that might have made its way into discovery if it could stand up as something other than slander? One thing they didn't have (other than a gun) in Odin's murder is a really clear motive. The fact that this is coming out now tells me all I need to know.
Now, the circumstantial evidence leads me to #respecttheprocess and believe his guilt in the first murder, but this still amounts to slander.
We'll see. Last I checked, Newsweek was considered a pretty reputable news source.
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Michelle Tafoya was reporting this story today on the radio. Her spin on it was that it was leaked as kind of a smear campaign to provide cover for the prison administration that were on guard when he committed suicide.
Oh, and in before the lock. This isn't going to end well.
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Lenny, what's your problem? I've never had any beefs with you, and I don't know where this is coming from.
I don't like inferences that only religious people have morals and ethics - which is exactly what rocket was doing. And out of that, somehow you get that I have feelings of moral superiority? Jeesh. Nowhere did I say I was more moral than all Christians or even most Christians. I would have no way of determining that. What I said was that I, despite being a dreaded atheist, am more "Christian" than a lot of people who claim to be. I stand by that.
As for including our so-called president in my comment ... I admit it is a weakness of mine. He is a horrible person and it bothers me that people who care about their fellow man (and woman) would vote for a dreadful human being like him. I should keep it off this board, yes. We all have our weaknesses ... except maybe you, I guess.
LXXXII, ya had yo one vote. Didn't work out yo wey dis time 'round. Had da public erupted like you are wit hour last potus, you'd be labelled a racist. Butt, now its ok, hey? So, deel wit it and if it ain't ta yo liking, den yo get another shot in fore years. Dats da wey wee roll in dis country. Its called democracy. Utterwise, no one wants to hear yo nonsense, ai na?
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As for including our so-called president in my comment ... I admit it is a weakness of mine. He is a horrible person and it bothers me that people who care about their fellow man (and woman) would vote for a dreadful human being like him. I should keep it off this board, yes. We all have our weaknesses ... except maybe you, I guess.
MU82 isn't dealing with his "weakness" well, even though he claims to know better. This BEGS for the BAN HAMMER.
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MU82 isn't dealing with his "weakness" well, even though he claims to know better. This BEGS for the BAN HAMMER.
Wow, JB.
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Ah the offseason
(https://68.media.tumblr.com/e674d320b1af07254365c5a94533d340/tumblr_noej5grs791teja04o1_400.gif)
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MU82 isn't dealing with his "weakness" well, even though he claims to know better. This BEGS for the BAN HAMMER.
Well, he is a pompous ass, so he has that going for him.
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Well, he is a pompous ass, so he has that going for him.
Have some respect.
That's Mr. Pompous Ass, to you.
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I'm sorry, but what absolute garbage. You think that might have made its way into discovery if it could stand up as something other than slander? One thing they didn't have (other than a gun) in Odin's murder is a really clear motive. The fact that this is coming out now tells me all I need to know.
Now, the circumstantial evidence leads me to #respecttheprocess and believe his guilt in the first murder, but this still amounts to slander.
Is suggesting someone might have been homosexual slanderous?
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Slipped in before the lock. :o
(https://media0.giphy.com/media/3o7rbR6Kj0t3N2Dyec/giphy.gif)
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Lenny, what's your problem? I've never had any beefs with you, and I don't know where this is coming from.
I don't like inferences that only religious people have morals and ethics - which is exactly what rocket was doing. And out of that, somehow you get that I have feelings of moral superiority? Jeesh. Nowhere did I say I was more moral than all Christians or even most Christians. I would have no way of determining that. What I said was that I, despite being a dreaded atheist, am more "Christian" than a lot of people who claim to be. I stand by that.
As for including our so-called president in my comment ... I admit it is a weakness of mine. He is a horrible person and it bothers me that people who care about their fellow man (and woman) would vote for a dreadful human being like him. I should keep it off this board, yes. We all have our weaknesses ... except maybe you, I guess.
Mike, "my problem(s)" are many, and I'll readily stipulate to that. I think you're a nice, funny and talented guy and will stipulate to that also.
You're not flawless however. When you preach you often preface your sermons with assertions of your goodness, morality, happiness, etc. as if these assertions give your opinions on religion, politics, etc., more heft. They don't - instead they sound like someone looking down on others. Your comments in the last paragraph of this response reinforce that - they sound decidedly "un christian".
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Mike, "my problem(s)" are many, and I'll readily stipulate to that. I think you're a nice, funny and talented guy and will stipulate to that also.
You're not flawless however. When you preach you often preface your sermons with assertions of your goodness, morality, happiness, etc. as if these assertions give your opinions on religion, politics, etc., more heft. They don't - instead they sound like someone looking down on others. Your comments in the last paragraph of this response reinforce that - they sound decidedly "un christian".
Thanks, Lenny. Never claimed to be flawless. I'll try to use this constructive criticism to be better.
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Thanks, Lenny. Never claimed to be flawless. I'll try to use this constructive criticism to be better.
No sweat, Mike. Truth told, I'm best at seeing imperfections in areas where I've been most guilty.
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Again, I think it would be pretty easy to discuss all of the heinous acts done in the name of a higher power.
Disagree. Discussing all the heinous acts done in the name of a higher power would be the most difficult, time consuming endeavor in the history of mankind.
What war didn't start in the name of a higher power? Religion is responsible for more death, destruction, and war than any other force on earth. It's not close, it's not debatable, and nothing is comparable.
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Disagree. Discussing all the heinous acts done in the name of a higher power would be the most difficult, time consuming endeavor in the history of mankind.
What war didn't start in the name of a higher power? Religion is responsible for more death, destruction, and war than any other force on earth. It's not close, it's not debatable, and nothing is comparable.
Mostly true.
Religion isn't really "responsible." Religion is just a man-made thing, like lugnuts or belt buckles.
Religious zealots have been responsible.
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Disagree. Discussing all the heinous acts done in the name of a higher power would be the most difficult, time consuming endeavor in the history of mankind.
What war didn't start in the name of a higher power? Religion is responsible for more death, destruction, and war than any other force on earth. It's not close, it's not debatable, and nothing is comparable.
The Encyclopedia of Wars (2008) chronicles 1763 wars throughout human history. 123 (7%) are considered "religious in nature". In 2013, The Institute for Economics and Peace looked at all the conflicts from that year. A total of 35 "wars" are listed. In 14 (40%), religion played no role at all. In 5 (14%) it was the main cause. Every one of the wars had multiple causes, the most common being opposition to a government's ideology or economic system (main cause in 67% of conflicts).
Your assertions make for great bumper stickers but don't stand up to scrutiny. The answer to "what war didn't start in the name of a higher power?" is the vast majority of them.
The world would be a lot more peaceful if regimes were not fanatical - like Iran (religious) and N Korea (atheist). Blaming the world's woes on religion (or lack of it) is fatuous.
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MU82 isn't dealing with his "weakness" well, even though he claims to know better. This BEGS for the BAN HAMMER.
how about a 2nd opinion...yo, chico's! whusup dog? :D
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The Encyclopedia of Wars (2008) chronicles 1763 wars throughout human history. 123 (7%) are considered "religious in nature". In 2013, The Institute for Economics and Peace looked at all the conflicts from that year. A total of 35 "wars" are listed. In 14 (40%), religion played no role at all. In 5 (14%) it was the main cause. Every one of the wars had multiple causes, the most common being opposition to a government's ideology or economic system (main cause in 67% of conflicts).
Your assertions make for great bumper stickers but don't stand up to scrutiny. The answer to "what war didn't start in the name of a higher power?" is the vast majority of them.
The world would be a lot more peaceful if regimes were not fanatical - like Iran (religious) and N Korea (atheist). Blaming the world's woes on religion (or lack of it) is fatuous.
Good call out. Events cited like the crusades are about 1-3 million and a primary example but wwI alone was 35 million. Assuming you might have read the same blurb as I did but this is counting the 100 million genocide in the USSR and China in the 20th century alone. Just mind boggling numbers by the communist regimes with zero religious implications. Not to say religious rationalistion of war is ok though clearly.
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Good call out. Events cited like the crusades are about 1-3 million and a primary example but wwI alone was 35 million. Assuming you might have read the same blurb as I did but this is counting the 100 million genocide in the USSR and China in the 20th century alone. Just mind boggling numbers by the communist regimes with zero religious implications. Not to say religious rationalistion of war is ok though clearly.
Right - lots of reasons listed for WWI - 14 on one site I visited. Religion didn't make the cut. Again, if you want to take a bumper sticker view of history, so be it. Uninformed opinions are a protected privilege. But they aren't facts.
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Is suggesting someone might have been homosexual slanderous?
Thank you, that's an important clarification. On its face, no it isn't, and I certainly don't believe that it is. But intent matters here. If this is meant to distract from (purely speculation here) a lapse in protocol, or to inflict emotional harm on his family. So while in a silo this isn't, you have to look at it in its totality and why this is coming out.
Speculating is irresponsible, and again, if this relationship was known to law enforcement during his incarceration but before his conviction, it would have been entered into evidence. ESPECIALLY since we don't have a murder weapon and only have evidence he was present (blunt at the scene).
I'm not a lawyer, and I will not pretend to play one on the internet. And I would never mean to suggest that homosexuality is pejorative. But that is how it is often used and how it feels that it's being used here.
Thanks for forcing me to clarify my statement.
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Right - lots of reasons listed for WWI - 14 on one site I visited. Religion didn't make the cut. Again, if you want to take a bumper sticker view of history, so be it. Uninformed opinions are a protected privilege. But they aren't facts.
Ok, back on topic. I hope for whirrled peas some day.
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Ok, back on topic. I hope for whirrled peas some day.
and last time i checked-aaron is still dead, eyhn'a?
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The Encyclopedia of Wars (2008) chronicles 1763 wars throughout human history. 123 (7%) are considered "religious in nature". In 2013, The Institute for Economics and Peace looked at all the conflicts from that year. A total of 35 "wars" are listed. In 14 (40%), religion played no role at all. In 5 (14%) it was the main cause. Every one of the wars had multiple causes, the most common being opposition to a government's ideology or economic system (main cause in 67% of conflicts).
Your assertions make for great bumper stickers but don't stand up to scrutiny. The answer to "what war didn't start in the name of a higher power?" is the vast majority of them.
The world would be a lot more peaceful if regimes were not fanatical - like Iran (religious) and N Korea (atheist). Blaming the world's woes on religion (or lack of it) is fatuous.
That's nice, but it's not true.
http://davidmschell.com/religious-wars-only-123-of-1763/
There may be other motivations that initiate the wars, but religion is what sells it to the combatants and the population.
And WWI wasn't religious? When the Russians were telling their soldiers that Kaiser Wilhelm was the Antichrist? When English clergy were calling on the nation to support the new crusade?
I won't deny other factors, but religion most certainly played a massive part of how WWI was sold to its combatants.
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2014/june/wwi-philip-jenkins-great-and-holy-war-review.html
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That's nice, but it's not true.
http://davidmschell.com/religious-wars-only-123-of-1763/
There may be other motivations that initiate the wars, but religion is what sells it to the combatants and the population.
And WWI wasn't religious? When the Russians were telling their soldiers that Kaiser Wilhelm was the Antichrist? When English clergy were calling on the nation to support the new crusade?
I won't deny other factors, but religion most certainly played a massive part of how WWI was sold to its combatants.
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2014/june/wwi-philip-jenkins-great-and-holy-war-review.html
People may disagree with how the book classifies the causes of wars, at least on the margins.
But let me remind you or your initial patently false statement:
"What war DIDN"T start in the name of a higher power?...blah,blah, blah"
The correct answer, according to the article YOU cite, is most of them.
From your article: "The claim...that religion is solely responsible for wars is over simplistic rubbish" and "wars have always arisen, and arise today, from territorial disputes, military rivalries, conflicts of ethnicity, and striving for commercial and economic advantage, and they have always depended on, and depend upon today, pride, prejudice, coercion, envy, cupidity, envy, competitiveness and a sense of injustice" - IOW, the basic failings of human beings. Further on, "But for much of the world BEFORE THE 17TH CENTURY, these reasons for war were explained and justified, at least for the participants, by religion. Then around the middle of the 17th century, Europeans began to think of war as a legitimate means of furthering the interests of individual sovereigns." So 375 years ago religion as a reason for and a justification of war became basically extinct in much of the world.
So no, WWI wasn't a religious war. Nor was the Revolutionary War, the War of 1812, the Civil War, WWII, the Korean War, Viet Nam, the Gulf War, Iraq or Afghanistan. Claiming that all wars start because of religion flat out, patently false. Until and unless you admit that fact, it's impossible to have a discussion on the subject.
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I won't deny other factors, but religion most certainly played a massive part of how WWI was sold to its combatants.
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2014/june/wwi-philip-jenkins-great-and-holy-war-review.html
There's a huge difference between what causes those in power to engage in war and how those in power sell the war to the poor slobs who fight and die on their behalf.
The "higher power" that motivates nearly all wars isn't religion or faith, it's greed for domination and resources, whether those resources be land, oil, gold or some other measure of wealth and influence.
Of course, since the masses very rarely benefit from the acquisition of wealth and influence by those in power, something else has to be concocted to persuade them that there's a greater cause that makes their lives expendable. Sometimes it's nationalism. Sometimes it's ethnic identity or tribalism. And, yes, sometimes it's religion.
But that makes the existence of religion no more to blame for war than the fact that some choose to identify themselves as Irish or Polish or Italian is to blame for war.
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Lenny and Pakuni have provided solid evidence that brew (and I, by extension) overplayed his hand.
Nevertheless, IMHO, one war in the name of a higher power is one too many. And I think we all can agree that far too many people have died under the guise/cause of fighting for a higher power.
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People may disagree with how the book classifies the causes of wars, at least on the margins.
But let me remind you or your initial patently false statement:
"What war DIDN"T start in the name of a higher power?...blah,blah, blah"
The correct answer, according to the article YOU cite, is most of them.
From your article: "The claim...that religion is solely responsible for wars is over simplistic rubbish" and "wars have always arisen, and arise today, from territorial disputes, military rivalries, conflicts of ethnicity, and striving for commercial and economic advantage, and they have always depended on, and depend upon today, pride, prejudice, coercion, envy, cupidity, envy, competitiveness and a sense of injustice" - IOW, the basic failings of human beings. Further on, "But for much of the world BEFORE THE 17TH CENTURY, these reasons for war were explained and justified, at least for the participants, by religion. Then around the middle of the 17th century, Europeans began to think of war as a legitimate means of furthering the interests of individual sovereigns." So 375 years ago religion as a reason for and a justification of war became basically extinct in much of the world.
So no, WWI wasn't a religious war. Nor was the Revolutionary War, the War of 1812, the Civil War, WWII, the Korean War, Viet Nam, the Gulf War, Iraq or Afghanistan. Claiming that all wars start because of religion flat out, patently false. Until and unless you admit that fact, it's impossible to have a discussion on the subject.
I engaged in hyperbole, for that I apologize. The truth is religion is the main reason people have gone to war and the main reason people have died in those wars, but it is only one of many factors that actually started those wars (at least since the 18th century, before that virtually all wars were religious).
Saying religion is not behind wars, however, is patently false and you simply took an erroneous article that misinterpreted another writing and tried to use it to justify your inaccurate case.
World War I used religion on all sides to drive troops into battle and to increase fervor and support for the war. The Civil War came about largely because Southern Christians tried to use the Bible (story of Canaan) to justify them owning black slaves. World War II was religiously motivated on all sides but arguably Stalin, though Germany and the Vatican used Russia's lack of religion as a motivator and action justifier as well. (And need I mention 6 million Jews? Pretty sure they weren't targeted because of their stylish hats) Every foray we've made into the Middle East has demonized Muslims and the Qu'ran, and jihadist actions were the impetus that led to all our foreign retaliations and aggressions since 9/11.
I'll grant that in the past 250 years, religion didn't always start the fire, but far more often than not it was stoking the flames.
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As the old saying goes, 'when you have a hammer, everything looks like a nail'
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And need I mention 6 million Jews? Pretty sure they weren't targeted because of their stylish hats
I have a yarmulke that looks like a basketball. Haven't worn it in eons, but it's in this house of mine somewhere.
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We'll see. Last I checked, Newsweek was considered a pretty reputable news source.
I was raised with the Post and Newsweek. Back in the day, under Katherine Graham and Ben Bradley, the Post enterprise was responsible reputable, and legitimate.
What is now called WaPo, unfortunately, is a disgrace to professional journalism. Bezos bought himself a bully pulpit which now lacks credibility or any semblance of an ethical standard.
Fish wrap, anyone?
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The Encyclopedia of Wars (2008) chronicles 1763 wars throughout human history. 123 (7%) are considered "religious in nature". In 2013, The Institute for Economics and Peace looked at all the conflicts from that year. A total of 35 "wars" are listed. In 14 (40%), religion played no role at all. In 5 (14%) it was the main cause. Every one of the wars had multiple causes, the most common being opposition to a government's ideology or economic system (main cause in 67% of conflicts).
Your assertions make for great bumper stickers but don't stand up to scrutiny. The answer to "what war didn't start in the name of a higher power?" is the vast majority of them.
The world would be a lot more peaceful if regimes were not fanatical - like Iran (religious) and N Korea (atheist). Blaming the world's woes on religion (or lack of it) is fatuous.
Well said, Mr Bernstein. You beat me to it. This subject was part of the curricula at both Air Command and Staff College and the Air War College.
Fact is, even conflict cloaked in religious rhetoric is mostly about economic issues. Political power means one thing - economic well being. All the polemic is feel good moralism.
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I have a yarmulke that looks like a basketball. Haven't worn it in eons, but it's in this house of mine somewhere.
Pix?
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Well said, Mr Bernstein. You beat me to it. This subject was part of the curricula at both Air Command and Staff College and the Air War College.
Fact is, even conflict cloaked in religious rhetoric is mostly about economic issues. Political power means one thing - economic well being. All the polemic is feel good moralism.
Yo Crash - dead on. Wars are about a country's or a peoples' "stuff". I want yours, I perceive that you want mine, etc. Religion can be one of many things leaders who want to invade or defend use to dehumanize the enemy but it's really usually besides the point.
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Pix?
If I can find it - a big freakin "if" - I absolutely will provide a pic.
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If I can find it - a big freakin "if" - I absolutely will provide a pic.
I've been meaning to ask you: you have thoughtfully articulated that your moral compass is calibrated accurately without regard to any belief in a "higher power." Do you think your upbringing, which I assume included bar mitzvah studies, provided you with the underpinnings of your moral belief system? Truly just curious.
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I've been meaning to ask you: you have thoughtfully articulated that your moral compass is calibrated accurately without regard to any belief in a "higher power." Do you think your upbringing, which I assume included bar mitzvah studies, provided you with the underpinnings of your moral belief system? Truly just curious.
My upbringing absolutely provided me with the underpinnings of my moral belief system because I had fantastic parents and some very good role models, including my oldest brother. By the time I was Bar Mitzvah age, I already was barely Jewish in my mind and had pretty much decided that religion wasn't for me. I went through my Bar Mitzvah for my parents, who would have been disappointed if I hadn't.
My parents never said, "Do this because God would want you to" or "Be a good Jew and do so-and-so." In my family, there was never the equivalent of "You have to be good if you want to go to heaven." I was expected to do the right thing because it was the right thing. Period.
Now, I didn't always do the right thing. I messed up like every kid does. But I never worried about being punished by God, only about letting my parents down.
My kids were raised without religion. I think they are great kids, and I don't think they would change much about their upbringing. There was a lot of love in our home, and we are still very, very close to our kids even though we live far away from them now.
I happen to think religion is a fascinating subject and I like discussing it, as well as my lack thereof. It's interesting! I don't mind you asking at all.
I hope I didn't come across as claiming moral superiority in any of the above. I don't mean that to be snarky at all. Lenny said I occasionally come off that way, and I really don't mean to, so I will take his constructive criticism to heart. I have made plenty of mistakes, including a couple of whoppers that I am very ashamed of. But again, that shame has nothing to do with God or heaven or hell. It has to do with doing the right things instead of the wrong things.
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From first hand observation men in the heat of combat reach out to two cultural icons - mom and God.
Coming to terms with one's mortality has men reach both to the known past and the uncertain future.
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I engaged in hyperbole, for that I apologize. The truth is religion is the main reason people have gone to war and the main reason people have died in those wars, but it is only one of many factors that actually started those wars (at least since the 18th century, before that virtually all wars were religious).
Saying religion is not behind wars, however, is patently false and you simply took an erroneous article that misinterpreted another writing and tried to use it to justify your inaccurate case.
World War I used religion on all sides to drive troops into battle and to increase fervor and support for the war. The Civil War came about largely because Southern Christians tried to use the Bible (story of Canaan) to justify them owning black slaves. World War II was religiously motivated on all sides but arguably Stalin, though Germany and the Vatican used Russia's lack of religion as a motivator and action justifier as well. (And need I mention 6 million Jews? Pretty sure they weren't targeted because of their stylish hats) Every foray we've made into the Middle East has demonized Muslims and the Qu'ran, and jihadist actions were the impetus that led to all our foreign retaliations and aggressions since 9/11.
I'll grant that in the past 250 years, religion didn't always start the fire, but far more often than not it was stoking the flames.
You have a painfully unsophisticated understanding of armed conflict.
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My upbringing absolutely provided me with the underpinnings of my moral belief system because I had fantastic parents and some very good role models, including my oldest brother. By the time I was Bar Mitzvah age, I already was barely Jewish in my mind and had pretty much decided that religion wasn't for me. I went through my Bar Mitzvah for my parents, who would have been disappointed if I hadn't.
My parents never said, "Do this because God would want you to" or "Be a good Jew and do so-and-so." In my family, there was never the equivalent of "You have to be good if you want to go to heaven." I was expected to do the right thing because it was the right thing. Period.
Now, I didn't always do the right thing. I messed up like every kid does. But I never worried about being punished by God, only about letting my parents down.
My kids were raised without religion. I think they are great kids, and I don't think they would change much about their upbringing. There was a lot of love in our home, and we are still very, very close to our kids even though we live far away from them now.
I happen to think religion is a fascinating subject and I like discussing it, as well as my lack thereof. It's interesting! I don't mind you asking at all.
I hope I didn't come across as claiming moral superiority in any of the above. I don't mean that to be snarky at all. Lenny said I occasionally come off that way, and I really don't mean to, so I will take his constructive criticism to heart. I have made plenty of mistakes, including a couple of whoppers that I am very ashamed of. But again, that shame has nothing to do with God or heaven or hell. It has to do with doing the right things instead of the wrong things.
So, just curious how your marriage outside of your faith washed with your parents? Were they accepting of your gentile wife and/or disappointed with you? Also, because your children are a product of a mixed marriage, did you and your wife consciously raise them to be observant of neither religion? Does your wife actively practice her religion? Would you be tolerant or understanding if any of your children were religious? Does it matter to either of you who they choose to marry? And, finally, who or what do you turn to in times crisis for strength?
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So, just curious how your marriage outside of your faith washed with your parents? Were they accepting of your gentile wife and/or disappointed with you? Also, because your children are a product of a mixed marriage, did you and your wife consciously raise them to be observant of neither religion? Does your wife actively practice her religion? Would you be tolerant or understanding if any of your children were religious? Does it matter to either of you who they choose to marry? And, finally, who or what do you turn to in times crisis for strength?
(http://i.chzbgr.com/completestore/2008/4/21/utalkintome128532724653125000.jpg)
Bring 4ever back.
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So, just curious how your marriage outside of your faith washed with your parents? Were they accepting of your gentile wife and/or disappointed with you? Also, because your children are a product of a mixed marriage, did you and your wife consciously raise them to be observant of neither religion? Does your wife actively practice her religion? Would you be tolerant or understanding if any of your children were religious? Does it matter to either of you who they choose to marry? And, finally, who or what do you turn to in times crisis for strength?
Are you OK? Cogent, coherent, grammatically solid, not flippant.
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Ok, so here da thin' y'all. True confessions, I use dis board ta decompress, express my alter ego, act flippant, or just plane have sum fun. It's a fookin' chat board, nothin' more and certainly nothin' less. Wen I'm pissed or, in dis case, dead serious 'bout a serious topic, den y'all are likely ta see da erudite scholar dat I am. Problem lots of y'all have is first off, ya tink someone cares. Dey don't. Secondly, ya tink someone is gonna tink you're important, worldy, ultra bright, or just plane, da chit. Well, no one gives a rat's ass or if dey due, their ain't nothin' of significance goin' on in der life utterwise, ai na?
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y'all are likely ta see da erudite scholar dat I am
Sure...Just like our former czar will categorically turn down all $400k an hour speaking gigs!!!
Just kidding, Doc! Keep givin' em hell!!!
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So, just curious how your marriage outside of your faith washed with your parents? Were they accepting of your gentile wife and/or disappointed with you? Also, because your children are a product of a mixed marriage, did you and your wife consciously raise them to be observant of neither religion? Does your wife actively practice her religion? Would you be tolerant or understanding if any of your children were religious? Does it matter to either of you who they choose to marry? And, finally, who or what do you turn to in times crisis for strength?
Great questions, and I even understand them!
Well, I went to a Catholic college, so my parents had to be pretty prepared for me to date outside the religion and even to find a mate outside the religion. My father, who grew less and less sure of God's existence as he got older, was immediately accepting of my wife; my mother, who was raised Orthodox as a little girl, was disappointed at first. Once my mom got to know my wife-to-be a little bit, she realized my future spouse was (and still is) a wonderful person and my mom fell in love with her.
Ironically (or maybe coincidentally), my brothers who married Jews - and never would have married gentiles - have both been divorced. Meanwhile, my mixed marriage is nearing its 34rd anniversary. Making vows in front of God didn't guarantee them marital bliss; getting married in a 5-minute ceremony before a judge didn't doom our marriage to failure.
BTW, my wife still jokes that I was the first Jew she ever met. And she married him! So there's no accounting for taste - ha!
My wife and I talked about the religion thing regularly before we got married. And yes, we decided that we were going to have kids and that, when we did, we would raise them without religion. My wife was raised Catholic but she was non-religious ... hence her willingness to marry a Jew-turned-atheist in the first place.
Our kids (now grown) are 13 months apart. We celebrated neither Christmas nor Hanukkah nor any other religions. Our big days were their birthdays.
Here's where things get fairly interesting (IMHO) ...
When my kids were about 10 and 11, they started showing an interest in Judaism. Not sure if it was their older cousins' Bar/Bat Mitzvahs or seeing the Hanukkah haul some of their friends had or some seriously spiritual reasons. So my wife started reading up on it and signed her and me up for an "exploring Judaism" class for newbies at our local temple. She thought it would provide a better sense of "community" and wanted to encourage the kids to think about more than themselves, so I was willing. We eventually joined the temple. My daughter had her Bat Mitzvah. My son, who quickly grew bored with the whole thing, almost decided not to have a Bar Mitzvah but ended up doing so. My wife actually converted to Judaism - went through all the rigamarole, totally on her own accord. We made a few friends at the temple who are still friends today.
But that all ended up being pretty fleeting. Within less than a year after his Bar Mitzvah, my son decided religion was a crock (his word). A few years later, my daughter and wife came to the same conclusion. Maybe if I had been more gung-ho about the whole thing the result would have been different, but I had to stay true to myself - and ultimately my wife did, too.
What I like about all of that is that my wife had a choice. Each of my kids had a choice. We were "pretty Jewish" for a while there - lighting candles for Sabbath every Friday night, going to temple nearly every week, etc - and they decided, over time, it wasn't for them. I feel good that they had a choice, and feel proud of them that they exercised their choice, which was theirs and theirs alone. If one or more of them had decided they wanted to be practicing Jews, I would have been proud of that choice, too.
Both of my kids are engaged and both will be married in 2018 (not to each other - this ain't Kentucky!). My daughter is marrying a non-practicing Catholic from Canada, my son is marrying a "holiday Jew" from the Chicago burbs - one whose family did the Hanukkah-gift and Passover and Yom Kippur things, but otherwise went through life as secular people. (This is the way I was mostly raised, too. I'd guess that the vast majority of American Jews are "holiday Jews." For that matter, maybe the majority of Christians are "holiday Christians," too, but I don't know.)
My daughter is going to have a non-religious ceremony. My son's future father-in-law is insisting upon a rabbi friend of his performing the ceremony, but not at a synagogue. Both of my kids do not expect religion to play a role in the families they want to have, but one never knows. Maybe they will go through something like we did for a few years and it will "stick."
Had either of my kids fallen in love with, say, a zealous, Mike-Pence-like Christian, would I have been OK with it? I don't know ... would I have had a choice? I like to think I would have been open-minded, but I can't know because it didn't happen. What I will say is that if my grandkids are raised with some kind of religion, I will not mock that religion. I will give them Christmas/Hanukkah gifts if they celebrate those holidays - it will be their celebrations, not mine, just as I will give them birthday gifts because it will be their birthdays, not mine.
As for your final question - "who or what do you turn to in times crisis for strength?" - I turn to my inner self. I don't ask outside sources for strength. When I need counsel, I have my wife, my now-grown kids and a small group of best friends.
Real quick, true, relevant story:
We recently vacationed in Hawaii. I won't go into all the details, but I was stupid and was almost swept out to sea and might never have been heard from again. Keeping this real short, I literally was holding on to a couple of rocks and some seaweed for dear life. Never once did I say, "Oh God, if you get me through this, blah-blah-blah ... " I didn't even think it. All I said was, "Holy shyte, hold on, you effen idiot! Hold on until the riptide lets up!! Dig in!!!"
Thankfully, I am sitting here right now to write you this response. I didn't ask God for help, so if he or she exists and he or she gave it, the help was unsolicited. I did ask myself for strength in a time of crisis, and I'm still alive.
I hope I didn't bore anybody with this stuff, but then again, I'm not the one who asked! Again, I find religion to be a fascinating topic.
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MN, thanks for your comprehensive answers. It truly is not any of my business, but again, I appreciate you sharing personal and sensitive feelings. Mazel tov on your kid's simchas, ai na?
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MU82
Very interesting and thank you for sharing. We have many, many Jewish friends, both professionally and socially, and about half of the couples are half Catholic and half Jewish. It is funny, but the last 8-10 funerals or weddings I have attended have been at a temple, not a church. If you add in the couple of Bar Mitzvah's we have attended, it might be time for me to join the local temple.
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Ok, so here da thin' y'all. True confessions, I use dis board ta decompress, express my alter ego, act flippant, or just plane have sum fun. It's a fookin' chat board, nothin' more and certainly nothin' less. Wen I'm pissed or, in dis case, dead serious 'bout a serious topic, den y'all are likely ta see da erudite scholar dat I am. Problem lots of y'all have is first off, ya tink someone cares. Dey don't. Secondly, ya tink someone is gonna tink you're important, worldy, ultra bright, or just plane, da chit. Well, no one gives a rat's ass or if dey due, their ain't nothin' of significance goin' on in der life utterwise, ai na?
Ahhhhhhhh. Order is restored.
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We're glad you weren't swept out to sea!
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We recently vacationed in Hawaii. I won't go into all the details, but I was stupid and was almost swept out to sea and might never have been heard from again. Keeping this real short, I literally was holding on to a couple of rocks and some seaweed for dear life. Never once did I say, "Oh God, if you get me through this, blah-blah-blah ... " I didn't even think it. All I said was, "Holy shyte, hold on, you effen idiot! Hold on until the riptide lets up!! Dig in!!!"
Thankfully, I am sitting here right now to write you this response. I didn't ask God for help, so if he or she exists and he or she gave it, the help was unsolicited. I did ask myself for strength in a time of crisis, and I'm still alive.
Buddy Christ says:
(http://www.troll.me/images/thumbs-up-jesus-says/hey-youre-welcome.jpg)
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We're glad you weren't swept out to sea!
+1. What beach 82?
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+1. What beach 82?
We were at Queen's Bath, on the north edge of Kauai, near Princeville.
Been many times, never had a harrowing incident like this. I often talked about when I die, I want to be cremated and have my ashes strewn into Queen's Bath. After surviving this incident, there was more than a little gallows humor about Queen's Bath not being willing to wait for me but instead actually coming to get me!
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MU82, thanks for sharing.
What I'm trying to figure out, is how does society promulgate appropriate moral standards in the absence of appropriate education in those standards? As you confirmed, your belief system was obtained by being raised in a Jewish household, studying for bar mitzvah, etc. Your children were raised by your high moral standards, and then supplemented by their own bar/bat mitzvah studies. So you all had a rather vigorous steeping in the Judaeo moral code, so to speak. But where does the kid attending a non-religious school in the poor areas of [fill in just about any urban location here] get the compass calibrated?
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MU82, thanks for sharing.
What I'm trying to figure out, is how does society promulgate appropriate moral standards in the absence of appropriate education in those standards? As you confirmed, your belief system was obtained by being raised in a Jewish household, studying for bar mitzvah, etc. Your children were raised by your high moral standards, and then supplemented by their own bar/bat mitzvah studies. So you all had a rather vigorous steeping in the Judaeo moral code, so to speak. But where does the kid attending a non-religious school in the poor areas of [fill in just about any urban location here] get the compass calibrated?
Do Judeo-Christian moral codes calibrate the compass? How do we explain similar moral codes among portions of world that traditionally not had access to Judeo-Christianity?
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MU82, thanks for sharing.
What I'm trying to figure out, is how does society promulgate appropriate moral standards in the absence of appropriate education in those standards? As you confirmed, your belief system was obtained by being raised in a Jewish household, studying for bar mitzvah, etc. Your children were raised by your high moral standards, and then supplemented by their own bar/bat mitzvah studies. So you all had a rather vigorous steeping in the Judaeo moral code, so to speak. But where does the kid attending a non-religious school in the poor areas of [fill in just about any urban location here] get the compass calibrated?
I think it's a leap to say my values was formed by being raised in a Jewish household. As I said, we were "holiday Jews," and it wasn't a huge part of my upbringing. My values were formed by great parenting, and I like to think my kids' values were formed at least by my wife's great parenting.
We all are influenced by our environments. I was mostly influenced by my parents being great people of high moral standards who did the right thing "just because."
To answer your last question, I don't know where such kids go to get their "compass calibrated." I don't pretend to have the answers. One of the true tragedies is the number of kids born into situations with poor parenting, only one parent, etc. I like it when the politicians say, "We need to fix that," as if there's an effen fix to it.
I understand that for many people, thinking about a higher power motivates them, centers them, "calibrates their compasses," etc. I happen to think it's a crutch, but who the hell am I?
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Do Judeo-Christian moral codes calibrate the compass? How do we explain similar moral codes among portions of world that traditionally not had access to Judeo-Christianity?
I never implied that at all. I just indicated that that's what set his compass. I'm in complete agreement that other religious systems can provide a framework to imbue morality. My interest is in how can society establish an appropriate moral code without some form of education. Where is it coming from? Where should it come from? I know that it should be the parents, but we all know that's not happening with regularity. But everyone has to go to school. Is it (some form of ethics or morality) in today's K5-8 curriculum? I should know, but I'm afraid I don't.
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MU82-
"Holiday Christians" should be referred to in the proper lexicon: C.E.O. Christians- Christmas and Easter Only
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We were at Queen's Bath, on the north edge of Kauai, near Princeville.
Been many times, never had a harrowing incident like this. I often talked about when I die, I want to be cremated and have my ashes strewn into Queen's Bath. After surviving this incident, there was more than a little gallows humor about Queen's Bath not being willing to wait for me but instead actually coming to get me!
Ah, The Dead Pool. Kauai is very rough in the winter. Glad you kept your bearings considering the other great news on your trip.
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I never implied that at all. I just indicated that that's what set his compass. I'm in complete agreement that other religious systems can provide a framework to imbue morality. My interest is in how can society establish an appropriate moral code without some form of education. Where is it coming from? Where should it come from? I know that it should be the parents, but we all know that's not happening with regularity. But everyone has to go to school. Is it (some form of ethics or morality) in today's K5-8 curriculum? I should know, but I'm afraid I don't.
OK. Got it. I think it is mostly due to parents, but there is some normalization that goes along simply with being part of a society. I also think part of it is genetic. Traits like empathy for instance might be considered desirable and lead to genetic selection that rewarded that trait.
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MU82-
"Holiday Christians" should be referred to in the proper lexicon: C.E.O. Christians- Christmas and Easter Only
Never heard that one - I like it and probably will use it!
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My interest is in how can society establish an appropriate moral code without some form of education. Where is it coming from? Where should it come from?
My simple answer to these complex situations is ...
I don't know.
I'm pretty sure that trying to "legislate morality," as the country has tried to do and as states keep trying to do, has not proven to be an effective "cure."
Part of the reason for that is what one person considers immoral (say, abortion or the death penalty), another might consider A-OK.
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I'm pretty sure that trying to "legislate morality," as the country has tried to do and as states keep trying to do, has not proven to be an effective "cure."
Part of the reason for that is what one person considers immoral (say, abortion or the death penalty), another might consider A-OK.
Actually, we've been legislating morality rather successfully for a long time. It's against the law to rape, steal, trespass, drive impaired, kidnap a child, bludgeon your spouse, (I'll stop, but it's a long list)--- all laws that punish those who do not adhere to an agreed upon moral code. There is (I think) universal agreement on certain behavior being morally unacceptable and subject to legislated punishment. But I do agree with your examples on areas of strong disagreement as to what is "moral" behavior.
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Actually, we've been legislating morality rather successfully for a long time. It's against the law to rape, steal, trespass, drive impaired, kidnap a child, bludgeon your spouse, (I'll stop, but it's a long list)--- all laws that punish those who do not adhere to an agreed upon moral code. There is (I think) universal agreement on certain behavior being morally unacceptable and subject to legislated punishment. But I do agree with your examples on areas of strong disagreement as to what is "moral" behavior.
I'm going to try not to get too involved here but I would argue there is a huge difference between simple codification of what is generally universally considered immoral (rape, murder, theft) and attempting to legislate moral issues on which society may never come to agreement. The former have to be on the books just so criminals can't say "but it's not a law" even though everyone knows it is wrong. There will never be a discussion on whether rape should be legal, just what the punishment will be. The government has a responsibility both to protect innocent citizens by creating these laws but also to put criminals on notice on the consequences for their actions.
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You guys never take one of the American Military History classes at MU? Most wars are over resources & economics, and that truly cannot be debated.
Land, water, minerals \ precious metals, economic rights, trade routes, oil. Religion is rarely the cause. Some revisionist and inaccurate history going on here.
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I'm going to try not to get too involved here but I would argue there is a huge difference between simple codification of what is generally universally considered immoral (rape, murder, theft) and attempting to legislate moral issues on which society may never come to agreement. The former have to be on the books just so criminals can't say "but it's not a law" even though everyone knows it is wrong. There will never be a discussion on whether rape should be legal, just what the punishment will be. The government has a responsibility both to protect innocent citizens by creating these laws but also to put criminals on notice on the consequences for their actions.
This.