Best transfers in MU history

[tower912]

Crean could not build on the success of his Final 4.  Not sure why he could not. 

9 years at IU have borne out what MU fans were coming to realize when he left.    He is a decent coach, but he isn't a great coach. 

[HoopsterBC]

9 years at IU have borne out what MU fans were coming to realize when he left.    He is a decent coach, but he isn't a great coach.

I agree on that.  Just needed one big man, and never got one except the one year with Robert Jackson.  Even under Buzz they never got a big man, either.

[Goose]

Tower

I apologize to all if I came across negatively in my posts, I actually was just trying to be honest. I realize that we are never going to be the Marquette of the Al era again and I am fine with that. What I am not fine with is the school STILL living off that glory and not striving (IMO) to get as close as possible to be a real deal program again. I do not believe the bar or expectations are set high enough by the program or many fans...just my opinion.

I would take Brad Stevens bland over charisma in 2017 and be very happy with that. Not being elite frustrates me big time. IMO not trying harder to be elite really frustrates me. For me, it really does come down to winning and winning all the time.

For the record, I was spoiled. I saw 80 of the 81 home wins during the sixth longest home winning streak in NCAA history in person. From a very early age (probably 4-5) MU basketball has been in our family's blood and I witnessed a lot of winning and winning doesn't suck.


Lastly, I have one recommendation that I wish MU ball program would follow. Forget about Al and they should build their own legacy. I am an Al freak and I tire of Al day at BC, or timeout on the Al McGuire Court or AL on the jersey and any other Al gimmick they pull to get old folks excited. I hope they try and bury the legend of Al by winning and winning big.

[Lennys Tap]

So, Goose, if I have been reading your posts over the last few days correctly, I think I understand your surprising negativity of a few weeks ago.    It isn't that you aren't a Marquette fan anymore.   You are.   But you have so many glorious memories of the the 70's when Marquette was an elite.    The MU basketball program you see now, while good and in the tournament, isn't elite, lacks charisma, and, in your opinion, does not have a route to greatness with the current stewardship of the program.   And this is frustrating and diminishes your enjoyment.

Tower, I think you have a pretty good handle on where Goose, 4ever, 69, myself and others are coming from. We were lucky to be around the program when it was elite - and by elite I mean in the class with UCLA, N Carolina, Kentucky and Indiana - above the rest of college basketball. In addition, we were unique to that group - small, urban and Catholic. And led by an edgy iconoclast who was always the coolest guy in the room. Now, we realize it will never be the same, the heavens will never be aligned quite that way again. But we had a glimpse. Buzz and his teams weren't as good, but they were close. Buzz wasn't quite the character Al was, but he was close. Buzz's teams didn't quite have the edge and the attitude Al's teams had, but it was close. Al grew weary of a less than appreciative administration and retired at 49 or 50. Buzz grew weary of the same and left.

Maybe (hopefully) Wojo can get us to where Buzz had us or beyond. But the model that worked for Al and Buzz has been torpedoed by the administration. Maybe the new model works. All of us old timers are praying that it does. We'd love to be totally on the bandwagon - but we're skeptical.

[Goose]

Lenny

Spot on. I WANT to be on the bandwagon and enjoy the ride. That said, little confidence in the overall leadership of the program, and that is not a rip on Wojo.

[HoopsterBC]

With Wojo it will be 2018 recruiting and the new arena, stadium, whatever they are going to call it.  If he can not sell the best new arena in the country for new recruits
to play in, it will never happen.   This is not going to be a college stadium, but a pro stadium!  He has Bailey coming and if he gets Joey, add one or two more and he
should have a Top 10 class.  Then we will see. 

[Goose]

Hoopster

Provided we play in new pro stadium long term, you are correct. If not, different story.

[tower912]

I get it.   I truly do.   The heights (the true heights and the recent paler imitation)  of MU basketball have come when we had an iconoclastic, idiosyncratic coach who was usually the smartest and most interesting guy in the room.    When the players had an edge.  When the Marquette brand was toughness.    I've said multiple times that I am not sold on Wojo's ability to take MU to the heights.   I can see the building blocks and the road map that he wants to follow.    I just don't know if that route takes MU to the top.  And if it does, it will feel like a Disney-fied version of a great story.     I don't see MU being a team of wild personalities that opponents hate.   If it works, I see MU making it with a Duke template.    And few of K's proteges have made that template work.   

But here we are.    MU is in the dance in Wojo's third year.     A worthy accomplishment.    Size is on the way in the next recruiting classes.    I have hope for the program.    But I don't think in this era, with this BOT, that anything resembling the style and panache of Al and Buzz will be permitted at MU. 

[Goose]

Tower

Agree across the board. FYI---I might get pissed off, but never have I lost my love of the program.

[Golden Avalanche]

Instead of asking us to get off your lawn, perhaps it's time to transfer out of the neighborhood.

[Goose]

Golden

Why don't you share more into your insight on the SH dumpster fire. We all found your insight very enjoyable.

[HoopsterBC]

Instead of asking us to get off your lawn, perhaps it's time to transfer out of the neighborhood.

Guys MU had a period from 1982 to Kevin O'Neal sucked, really sucked, same years as the Packers sucked.  Since then, sure they have been up and down, but those
20 years were worse.  Maybe Wojo beats Duke on Sunday, how would that be?

The Al years might have been worse, sure they won the NIT and 1977 championship, but there were really tough losses during that period.  Southern Illinois, Purdue,
Ohio State, Chones leaving during the year, Lucas leaving early, McNeil, crunched by Kentucky, losing to NCSt., Al technicals, losing to Indiana in 76 when they did not
rank teams, just put them in reigionals in there area, and finally 1978, the technical.  Those were all worse losses then today, because every year they could have won
the NCAA, today they go out in the first or second round, no chance to win it all.  Think of all that!

[Goose]

Hoopster

Guys like Golden pull inside job for getting a bid and hoping for first round win...and "then everything else is playing with house money".

[Loose Cannon]

With Wojo it will be 2018 recruiting and the new arena, stadium, whatever they are going to call it.  If he can not sell the best new arena in the country for new recruits
to play in, it will never happen.   This is not going to be a college stadium, but a pro stadium!  He has Bailey coming and if he gets Joey, add one or two more and he
should have a Top 10 class.  Then we will see.

Help me out here I respect your input.. I have read many posts of the positive affect of the new stadium on recruiting. A Honest question. Of all the elements a recruit considers when making his decision, what percentage (weight) of those elements does he give to the new arena.  I'm looking for an average % not for a case by case.  Thanks

[HoopsterBC]

Help me out here I respect your input.. I have read many posts of the positive affect of the new stadium on recruiting. A Honest question. Of all the elements a recruit considers when making his decision, what percentage (weight) of those elements does he give to the new arena.  I'm looking for an average % not for a case by case.  Thanks

Not sure the answer, but the Milwaukee Arena was a great place to watch a game, and the crowds were great.  The Bradley Center compared to other arenas for
basketball suck.  It is a big warehouse, not intimate, not intimidating at all.  Not sure about the new stadium until you see a game in there.  It should be great, impressive I hope.  More seats below, better site lines for basketball.  I would say 10-15% percent tops,  just a guess.  The Kohl Center was a huge help for basketball
compared to that old barn. 

[Goose]

Loose

Playing in an NBA stadium is a major, major recruiting tool. Playing in a stadium three miles away from NBA facility, not so much. As silly as it sounds, these kids want to play where the NBA guys play. Of course does not mean you win every recruiting battle because of it, but it definitely does not hurt.

[Herman Cain]

4ever

Folks knew we were not from Marquette, MI back in the day. The hatred by many around the country of the program was a feeling I really, really loved. You lived it on the road with the fellas and know the emotions that Al brought out in people. Kind of like his last dance to ND, the pose in front of student bodies with arms raised above head became a photo first, followed by a statue and still displayed on MU t-shirts over 40 years later.

And, yes the arrogance that I loved is gown!!!

The opponents were so intimidated by our Warriors in the day, most games were over before they even started.

[Loose Cannon]

Loose

Playing in an NBA stadium is a major, major recruiting tool. Playing in a stadium three miles away from NBA facility, not so much. As silly as it sounds, these kids want to play where the NBA guys play. Of course does not mean you win every recruiting battle because of it, but it definitely does not hurt.

Goose, and MU in NY

OK I get that.  But let me rephrase If YOU are the recruit, what are all the elements you're looking at and what weight do You give to each.  As they say just be You.

[brewcity77]

Since Al's day, which programs have risen to that elite level? Duke, obviously. Louisville, Villanova, Georgetown, Florida? Maybe Michigan State and (ugh) Wisconsin?

Becoming a team that is a sure bet for March and can compete for titles regularly is a tough thing to accomplish. Did any of those programs do it with an Al type figure? Modern days, definitely not K, Donovan, Wright, Izzo, or the Thompsons (maybe Big, not at all Little).

That leaves Pitino and Ryan (was Crum like that?). I do think they both do well at drawing the ire of opposition fans, though differently from Al.

I think Wojo is a lot more in the mold of K, Izzo, or Wright, where they build more around the program than the players. I have no idea if it will work, but I also think the days where an Al can build a dynasty may be over.

[Goose]

Brew

You are pretty easier grader on how elite looks like. I would take WI level of program at the moment, but nowhere near elite in my mind. They had a nice run and that is about it. As for coaches, Rick Pitino is the closest to Al, IMO. From his looks, hand gestures, walking the baseline, fashion sense and, most importantly, his ability to have his teams take over a game with a full court press. Big fan of Rick.

Before I get bashed with everything anti Pitino, please know your Al history before casting stones.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

IMO not trying harder to be elite really frustrates me.

This is the crux of the disagreement for me. I have seen no evidence that this is happening at Marquette. The administration, the BOT, the coaches and the players all have this at the top of the priority list. Despite what many have insinuated, Wojo was hired not because he was a choir boy, he was hired because he was perceived as the candidate most likely to bring us back to upper echelon of college basketball. Him being a choir boy was just a happy coincidence.

I'd welcome hearing contradicting evidence that show that we are no longer trying to be elite in basketball

[dgies9156]

Goose:

You and I are clones. I started on MU when I was 10. I cheered from afar for most of the McGuire era and love our Warriors far more than my beloved Packers or the St. Louis Cardinals. A couple of thoughts:

1) The days of Bob Knight, Al McGuire, Vitale etc., are over. Our school was like Al in the 1970s, arrogant and obnoxious. And we loved it. There's no way the Jesuits or Dr. Lovell would allow that today. Not what we want to be.

2) We can be an elite program again. Just understand elite means something different today than it did in 1970. At that time, UCLA won like 10 national championships in 12 years. Adolph Rupp, the dean of college bigots, still hadn't recruited or played his fist African-American ballplayer at Kentucky. The SEC had all of two African-American ballplayers at the time (Perry Wallace and Henry Harris). There were probably a dozen really good basketball schools and the drop-off from that 12 to the next 75 was huge. By contrast, today there's maybe a half dozen truly elite basketball schools (which can be pierced over time) and maybe 100 others that are generally good and competitive from year to year for an NCAA run. Butler, for example, made it to the championship not long ago. Yeah, Butler!

3) The reasons why ballplayers come to schools is as varied as the number of ballplayers. Why did Henry Ellenson choose Marquette? Probably to show off his skills and prepare for the NBA. He might have had to sit a year or more at Michigan State or UK. Many come for the coaches. A few for the facilities, location or even the happy and very friendly cheerleaders. Some might come because Jabari Parker or Glenn Rivers show up at MU practice facilities. Some might even come for Milwaukee's wonder winter weather. It's up to a coach to know what makes the guy tick and convert.

In short, I think we can be elite again and prominent on the national scene. But, elite means something very different than the 1970s or even Gino Antrum's 105+ game win streak at UConn womens basketball. It means we will be relevant.

[Goose]

dgies


Correct on almost all your points. An exception, IMO, the two Sr.'s at Villanova have now won 129 games and never have had a losing streak in their career there. If they can do that Villanova, MU sure as hell should have similar goals. Elite is different today, but winning and winning big has not changed. Give me a boring Duke like run for next 15 years and I will be happy camper.

[Goose]

TAMU

I have no doubt that many of the folks you mentioned has MU being an elite program on top of their priority list. For the record, I have getting laid everyday on top of priority list and I would say MU and I have similar levels of success currently. Actually, I like my batting average a helluva of lot more than MU's regarding making ball program elite.

My point is simple, I am not sure the gang over there has any idea on how to make their top of the list objective happen. I think you are a tad naive on some of the beliefs you have regarding what level priority it is. Take being a tad naive as a compliment.

[MU82]

I really like the recent posts here by TAMU and dgies.

My initial reaction to comments earlier in this thread was, "What do you mean Marquette isn't trying hard enough to be elite?"

And my secondary reaction was, "What is elite, anyway?"

There are a half-dozen - maybe - programs that are anywhere near what MU was during Al's heyday.

I mean some folks actually still consider Indiana "elite" even though it hasn't been an elite program for 20+ years. UCLA? Is that "elite" anymore?

As for Al - I wasn't here for Al. I arrived in the fall of 1978, 18 months removed from our most glorious moment. I certainly am not here to shyte on Al. I chose Marquette because of its basketball program and Al built that.

But really ... wasn't MU hoops under Al kind of like the Ditka-era Bears? Won one championship, contended year-in and year-out, was brash and had a certain panache ... but couldn't win multiple titles - which often is cited as the mark of true greatness?

The main difference between the Al Warriors and the Ditka Bears was: The Bears won their title the year they were by far the NFL's best team and then never could live up to it while the Warriors had far better teams than the one that won their lone title as Al's swan song. Unlike the Bears, who couldn't match their one-shot-wonder success, the Warriors' disappointments came earlier, during Al's prime. Still, at least loosely, the comparison works for me.

Were the Bears an "elite" team in the 1980s? Maybe, but they certainly weren't THE elite team. Not even effen close, compared to the 49ers.

I know that Goose, Lenny and others are smart enough to realize that things have changed so much in college basketball that the odds are stacked against Marquette ever being "elite" again - just as they are stacked against UCLA now that Wooden can't have all of his lieutenants cheat like hell on the recruiting trail, just as they are stacked against Indiana now that great athletes will no longer play for an abusive, tyrant SOB no matter how great a coach he might be.

I agree with many and say I will be satisfied with the kind of success we had in our stretch under Buzz. S16-S16-E8, preceded by a bunch of other tourney appearances, is a pretty sweet run for just about any school not named Duke, UNC, Kentucky and Kansas. That we had a certain swagger and toughness made it all the better. You do that, and maybe you catch a break or three and make a FF or two, maybe even pull off a title like Nova last season.

And I think we can do that under Wojo - and, if he leaves one day, under the coach who replaces him.