Best transfers in MU history

[MU82]

MU82

I would gladly discuss your question in detail over cocktails, my treat. That said, there is a divided BOT on how and what ball program means to the university. There has been lack of leadership in AD for a long time. Note---please do not tell me Bill Cords. The two major hires when Cords was here was done 100% outside influence and did around his back. That is a fact.

Again, next time you are in Milwaukee we can have a cocktail and discuss in detail. Honestly, tired of the fight and pissing off the fellow scoopers.

OK, Goose. I'll let it die here.

And I'll happily accept a free beer or three pretty much anytime.

[Herman Cain]

Tower

I apologize to all if I came across negatively in my posts, I actually was just trying to be honest. I realize that we are never going to be the Marquette of the Al era again and I am fine with that. What I am not fine with is the school STILL living off that glory and not striving (IMO) to get as close as possible to be a real deal program again. I do not believe the bar or expectations are set high enough by the program or many fans...just my opinion.

I would take Brad Stevens bland over charisma in 2017 and be very happy with that. Not being elite frustrates me big time. IMO not trying harder to be elite really frustrates me. For me, it really does come down to winning and winning all the time.

For the record, I was spoiled. I saw 80 of the 81 home wins during the sixth longest home winning streak in NCAA history in person. From a very early age (probably 4-5) MU basketball has been in our family's blood and I witnessed a lot of winning and winning doesn't suck.


Lastly, I have one recommendation that I wish MU ball program would follow. Forget about Al and they should build their own legacy. I am an Al freak and I tire of Al day at BC, or timeout on the Al McGuire Court or AL on the jersey and any other Al gimmick they pull to get old folks excited. I hope they try and bury the legend of Al by winning and winning big.

The primary reason I would like to see Wojo get hired away is that my expectations are high and are rooted in a desire to see MU regain our past glory. I just don't see Wojo as the guy to get us there. Crean/Buzz got us on the doorstep but we need an iconic dynamic and ,yes , highly motivational guy to bang the door down.  Nobody will ever be another Al. However, there are plenty of good quality guys who could take our resources and put us in the top 10.  With the New Big East , The new arena and the money we spend there is absolutely nothing standing in the way of our success if we really want it. Butler has a better chance to get there than we do right now and that tells you all you need to know about the expectations being set too low on our end.

[Newsdreams]

MU82

I would gladly discuss your question in detail over cocktails, my treat. That said, there is a divided BOT on how and what ball program means to the university. There has been lack of leadership in AD for a long time. Note---please do not tell me Bill Cords. The two major hires when Cords was here was done 100% outside influence and did around his back. That is a fact.

Again, next time you are in Milwaukee we can have a cocktail and discuss in detail. Honestly, tired of the fight and pissing off the fellow scoopers.

You do know that Doc Rivers is heavily involved in the basketball part as a BOT and was one to back the Wojo hire. I think he knows a bit about coaching and basketball.

[Newsdreams]

The primary reason I would like to see Wojo get hired away is that my expectations are high and are rooted in a desire to see MU regain our past glory. I just don't see Wojo as the guy to get us there. Crean/Buzz got us on the doorstep but we need an iconic dynamic and ,yes , highly motivational guy to bang the door down.  Nobody will ever be another Al. However, there are plenty of good quality guys who could take our resources and put us in the top 10.  With the New Big East , The new arena and the money we spend there is absolutely nothing standing in the way of our success if we really want it. Butler has a better chance to get there than we do right now and that tells you all you need to know about the expectations being set too low on our end.

You have no clue, let's see what happens in the next two years.

[Loose Cannon]

You have no clue, let's see what happens in the next two years.

It will have No effect.

[Newsdreams]

It will have No effect.

Yeah, just hoping for a miracle I guess.

[Goose]

TAMU

Please see my earlier post regarding Bill Cords. KO and Crean were handpicked and hired 95% without any help from Cords. I am going to leave at that, but the Cords argument actually goes on my side of the debate.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

TAMU

Please see my earlier post regarding Bill Cords. KO and Crean were handpicked and hired 95% without any help from Cords. I am going to leave at that, but the Cords argument actually goes on my side of the debate.

I missed that post. That's certainly an assertion.

I'm still curious on what basketball people you feel need to be included in the decision.

[Goose]

TAMU

Will send you PM tomorrow.

[brewcity77]

Brew

You are pretty easier grader on how elite looks like.

Goose

Just to follow up on this...I wouldn't put Wisconsin in the elite class, just that they've come from nowhere somewhat recently. I'm wondering who you would consider elite. Here's my list:

Blue Bloods: Duke, North Carolina, Kentucky, Kansas, Louisville, Michigan State

These are the teams that aren't just in the tournament every year, but competing for the Final Four every year. They can get top recruits, have a great fanbase, and are viewed as the glamour programs of college basketball.

Not far off: UCLA, Arizona, Villanova, Florida, Syracuse, Indiana, UConn

These teams aren't quite at that next echelon level. The kind of program that is one good hire away from being able to compete with the first bunch, but one bad hire away from fading into a decade of mediocrity.

I'd be happy with Marquette getting to either of these levels. I think we were pretty close to that second tier under Buzz, though looking at how fast and hard we fell, we certainly weren't close to the first tier. Really, I think the biggest thing is coaching consistency. The first tier always has a top-notch coach. Schools like Villanova and Florida, in particular, got there because of sustained runs from Wright and Donovan.

Villanova is the one that gives me hope. If they can do it, so can we. But it takes a long time, and I don't think you'll necessarily see quick returns. What program do you look at as our model in the past 20 years? If it's 'Nova, what do you see as different about where we are now and where Villanova was in 2004?

[MU Fan in Connecticut]

Goose

Just to follow up on this...I wouldn't put Wisconsin in the elite class, just that they've come from nowhere somewhat recently. I'm wondering who you would consider elite. Here's my list:

Blue Bloods: Duke, North Carolina, Kentucky, Kansas, Louisville, Michigan State

These are the teams that aren't just in the tournament every year, but competing for the Final Four every year. They can get top recruits, have a great fanbase, and are viewed as the glamour programs of college basketball.

Not far off: UCLA, Arizona, Villanova, Florida, Syracuse, Indiana

These teams aren't quite at that next echelon level. The kind of program that is one good hire away from being able to compete with the first bunch, but one bad hire away from fading into a decade of mediocrity.

I'd be happy with Marquette getting to either of these levels. I think we were pretty close to that second tier under Buzz, though looking at how fast and hard we fell, we certainly weren't close to the first tier. Really, I think the biggest thing is coaching consistency. The first tier always has a top-notch coach. Schools like Villanova and Florida, in particular, got there because of sustained runs from Wright and Donovan.

Villanova is the one that gives me hope. If they can do it, so can we. But it takes a long time, and I don't think you'll necessarily see quick returns. What program do you look at as our model in the past 20 years? If it's 'Nova, what do you see as different about where we are now and where Villanova was in 2004?

UConn?

[brewcity77]

UConn?

Yeah, I would add them to that "not far off" category. I think we'll have to see what Ollie's successor does. My guess is he gets one more year to right the ship. Ollie may well be that "one bad hire" that leads to a long stretch of mediocrity.

[Goose]

Newsdrms

I have commented on Doc numerous times on here. Great guy, great intentions, but I believe he is more symbolic than anything else. Having Doc heavily involved during the NBA season has to be a distraction to him. He worked hard to land Shaka and ultimately Wojo. That said, I believe Wojo was an easy out for him and the BOT followed suit.

IMO having Doc involved in during NBA season is unfair to both parties. His focus has to be on his job and only has so many hours in the day. I look at this way, if I needed an lawyer for shoplifting charges during the OJ trial, I would not have contacted Johnnie Cochran. My guess is his focus would have been elsewhere.

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

Yeah, I would add them to that "not far off" category. I think we'll have to see what Ollie's successor does. My guess is he gets one more year to right the ship. Ollie may well be that "one bad hire" that leads to a long stretch of mediocrity.

I'm not certain that Ollie isn't an ok hire.  They had a lot of injuries and are reeling a little from the conference situation.

[dgies9156]

Goose

Not far off: UCLA, Arizona, Villanova, Florida, Syracuse, Indiana, UConn

These teams aren't quite at that next echelon level.

Are you kidding me? Villanova is the defending national champion, a one-seed this year and one of the three or so teams deemed likely to be in Phoenix. No way Villanova is not an elite.

As for Indiana, not sure many Hoosier fans would agree. Last time I checked, disgruntled Hoosiers were leading the tanned one to the gallows, the rope already around his neck.

[Goose]

dgies

I would gladly take Villanova "non elite" status for a 15 year run. I would have no problem being considered in the Not Far Off group:)

[brewcity77]

Are you kidding me? Villanova is the defending national champion, a one-seed this year and one of the three or so teams deemed likely to be in Phoenix. No way Villanova is not an elite.

As for Indiana, not sure many Hoosier fans would agree. Last time I checked, disgruntled Hoosiers were leading the tanned one to the gallows, the rope already around his neck.

Did you even read the sentences after the one you included? Villanova is a great team, but would they sustain this level of success if Jay Wright left for the NBA next month? I'm skeptical. And Indiana is one good hire away from being back on top. Crean had them darn close to that (27+ wins 3/5 years, back atop the AP poll for a time) and while he may not be that "one good hire", they haven't fallen into mediocrity just yet.

[GGGG]

Goose, I have been keeping up with this thread from the beginning, and I can't exactly figure out what you want here.  You want someone with a basketball background, but Doc Rivers, who is a highly respected Marquette alum, BOT member and NBA coach, doesn't count because he is too busy?

You seem to be full of criticisms but lack specific solutions.  Wojo was an "easy out?"  They considered a former Final Four coach, a coach from another school coming off a Sweet 16, but felt that both were flawed.  They made a run at one of the hottest mid major coaches around and fell short.  And they ended up hiring a young assistant from one of the top programs to his first job, a model that worked extremely well for Marquette in the past, who laid out a vision for how he wanted to develop the program.

Who else should they have gone after?  If you look at the coaching changes from 2014 and 2015, I see two names.  First is Danny Manning who that same year went to Wake Forest from Tulsa.  He has developed Wake in a similar manner to Wojo and doesn't seem to be better or worse at this point.  The other is Steve Prohm who ended up at Iowa State the next year.  That may have worked but not sure his style would have fit.

[MU Fan in Connecticut]

Yeah, I would add them to that "not far off" category. I think we'll have to see what Ollie's successor does. My guess is he gets one more year to right the ship. Ollie may well be that "one bad hire" that leads to a long stretch of mediocrity.

Ollie had one bad year, this year, and it was related to losing 4 players for the season (who were expected to play major minutes).  I don't get the impression at all from any of the people around me who live and breath UConn basketball thing he was "one bad hire" and actually think the opposite.   

[Galway Eagle]

It seems like every time people mention elite they keep forgetting to actually define it. We keep mentioning that Wisconsin isn't elite and yet they're a couple of baskets away from actually having a better stretch under Bo than we did under Al and yet we consider ourselves elite during Al's time. We mention programs that have sustained success as elite and programs that seems to be temporarily elite as just below, which is fine, but then other posters seems to think that the temporary programs are elite.

I think if you're going to start using the mention of elite you should have to include a pretty specific definition. Like for me a program can have an elite period like us in the 70s or Arkansas under Richardson but not actually be elite. Meanwhile Elite programs are the handful that have sustained championships and final fours consistently through multiple decades. To me a program shouldn't be considered elite or having an elite era without at least a Final Four in that time (Looking at you Mike Brey).

[Goose]

Vinnie

Of course Doc counts and is highly respected, but he is one guy and happens to have a rather full plate. What I meant on Wojo being an "easy out" is simple, when Shaka was gone Doc went to comfortable place, Wojo. Not a bad thing, but IMO, it was an easy decision for MU to make once Doc signed off on him. Doc knew him, liked and respected him and Wojo is a good guy.

I will add, there have been several occasions that a group of basketball people have been involved in the hiring process and the results turned out very well, one S16 coach and one F4 coach. I also believe a committee of smart people is always better than a group of one.

[MUMountin]

Goose

Just to follow up on this...I wouldn't put Wisconsin in the elite class, just that they've come from nowhere somewhat recently. I'm wondering who you would consider elite. Here's my list:

Blue Bloods: Duke, North Carolina, Kentucky, Kansas, Louisville, Michigan State

These are the teams that aren't just in the tournament every year, but competing for the Final Four every year. They can get top recruits, have a great fanbase, and are viewed as the glamour programs of college basketball.

Not far off: UCLA, Arizona, Villanova, Florida, Syracuse, Indiana, UConn

These teams aren't quite at that next echelon level. The kind of program that is one good hire away from being able to compete with the first bunch, but one bad hire away from fading into a decade of mediocrity.

I'd be happy with Marquette getting to either of these levels. I think we were pretty close to that second tier under Buzz, though looking at how fast and hard we fell, we certainly weren't close to the first tier. Really, I think the biggest thing is coaching consistency. The first tier always has a top-notch coach. Schools like Villanova and Florida, in particular, got there because of sustained runs from Wright and Donovan.

Villanova is the one that gives me hope. If they can do it, so can we. But it takes a long time, and I don't think you'll necessarily see quick returns. What program do you look at as our model in the past 20 years? If it's 'Nova, what do you see as different about where we are now and where Villanova was in 2004?

There is probably a third category that should be mentioned that have been consistent tourney teams over the last 10-20 years, occasionally sneaking their way deeper into the tourney, but without the same recruiting appeal as the ones listed above.  Off the top of my head, I'd nominate Gonzaga, Wisconsin, Xavier, Butler, Notre Dame, maybe UConn into that group.  Before our recent slide, this is the group I would have put us in.  I hope we are close to regaining that ground, and think that is definitely within Wojo's potential. 

[HoopsterBC]

It seems like every time people mention elite they keep forgetting to actually define it. We keep mentioning that Wisconsin isn't elite and yet they're a couple of baskets away from actually having a better stretch under Bo than we did under Al and yet we consider ourselves elite during Al's time. We mention programs that have sustained success as elite and programs that seems to be temporarily elite as just below, which is fine, but then other posters seems to think that the temporary programs are elite.

I think if you're going to start using the mention of elite you should have to include a pretty specific definition. Like for me a program can have an elite period like us in the 70s or Arkansas under Richardson but not actually be elite. Meanwhile Elite programs are the handful that have sustained championships and final fours consistently through multiple decades. To me a program shouldn't be considered elite or having an elite era without at least a Final Four in that time (Looking at you Mike Brey).

Right now there are about 5 elite programs, elite programs to me are programs that can recruit Top 20 kids every year.  MU did that with Al.  Kansas, Kentucky, Arizona,  North Carolina, Duke right now.  2nd Tier programs get good players but maybe not the elite athletics.  Wisky, Villy, Syracuse, UCLA, Gonzaga.  Then 3rd
tier are teams that pluck a good kid everyonce in awhile and make a run in the NCAA.  Buzz and MU were there,  Notre Dame.  Al had MU as an elite program, it was
not the school, it was Al.  Wojo works his ass off, can not ask for more.  Again, the new arena has to become a new recruiting tool.  See in 2 years if he can recruit
some elite athletes. 

[brewcity77]

It seems like every time people mention elite they keep forgetting to actually define it. We keep mentioning that Wisconsin isn't elite and yet they're a couple of baskets away from actually having a better stretch under Bo than we did under Al and yet we consider ourselves elite during Al's time. We mention programs that have sustained success as elite and programs that seems to be temporarily elite as just below, which is fine, but then other posters seems to think that the temporary programs are elite.

Agreed completely. Honestly, I'm hesitant to really call Duke elite because I'm not sure what they'll look like after Coach K leaves. The programs that stand the test of time and succeed with coach after coach, schools like UNC, Kansas, and Kentucky really stand apart. Some will say UCLA, but they have one title since Wooden left and none in over 20 years. Is that elite? They had that great stretch under Howland, then fired him.

I really don't know how you define it. I think if people want Marquette to be in a class with UNC and Kansas, that's just unattainable. Having a great run, like we did under Al and felt like we were close to again from 2002-2014, that's perfectly viable.

[Goose]

Brewcity

You do realize under Al we had a decade long period of being ranked in the top 10? That we had the second highest winning % in the country during that time period? We were Kansas or whomever you want to compare them to. We were not in the same zip code from'02-14 as the Al era.