Process vs Outcome

[tower912]

The fluidity of the roster is to be expected after a coaching change.   The current roster for next season is going to be the youngest I can remember.    I do not ever have high expectations for young teams.   So I am going to focus on the process and not the outcome for this next season.  I will appreciate every win and every competitive loss where learning and growth occur.   But I am not going to sweat the final record.

[Vander Blue Man Group]

A tough season in terms of wins and losses while there is hope and upside for the future is a lot different than the alternative, which is what it would have been under Wojo. 

It would have been ideal if DJ and Dawson returned because there would have been a decent chance to thread the needle in terms of building while still competing at a high level. 

With DJ and potentially Dawson gone it shouldn't be too hard to adjust expectations.  No one wants to lose but if it's clear the culture is being built and the young players are developing over the course of the season and the team is playing it's best ball come February/March it can still be a really productive season. 

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

The fluidity of the roster is to be expected after a coaching change.   The current roster for next season is going to be the youngest I can remember.    I do not ever have high expectations for young teams.   So I am going to focus on the process and not the outcome for this next season.  I will appreciate every win and every competitive loss where learning and growth occur.   But I am not going to sweat the final record.

Yep.  Young and inexperienced.  My hope is they finish the season on the upswing.

[McLintock]

Go ahead and write the team off 6 months before practice starts and before the roster is finalized if you want to.  But that's a sad way to go through life.

[Uncle Rico]

Go ahead and write the team off 6 months before practice starts and before the roster is finalized if you want to.  But that's a sad way to go through life.

Nearly everyone is throwing out the caveat about the roster not being set.  As is, this team looks underwhelming for the 2021-22 season.  It’s not writing off, it’s setting realistic expectations with what is fact today when it comes to the roster.  Remember, being a Marquette fan means a lot of Arby’s, so doom and gloom is the default setting

[Spotcheck Billy]

A young nucleus that with a year or 2 of seasoning should be exciting to watch. Anyone concerned about unbalanced classes, just keep in mind some will transfer out likely every year. 

[tower912]

Go ahead and write the team off 6 months before practice starts and before the roster is finalized if you want to.  But that's a sad way to go through life.

Respecting the process.   It is now a ground-up rebuild.

[The Lens]

I can’t see Shaka finishing less than .500 in Conf.

[geps]

I can’t see Shaka finishing less than .500 in Conf.

As our roster stands now not sure I see better than 1-7 vs. Nova, Xavier, Hall and UConn next season. Kind of like this year except sub Creighton for X.

[tower912]

I can’t see Shaka finishing less than .500 in Conf.

Need to clean off your lens.

[4everwarriors]

Dudes, we sucked major ass under Woj. Take some ExLax and purge the system. Let Shaka develop his program and build his own team. Highly doubt you'll be disappointed, hey?

[tower912]

Sure.  But I doubt it happens this season.   Trust the process.

[4everwarriors]

Absolutely, and for the record I'm perfectly good with no holdovers from the old regime also, hey?

[Dr. Blackheart]

9th place and a BET blowout finish is a high bar to beat. Respect the process, hey?

[Uncle Rico]

Dudes, we sucked major ass under Woj. Take some ExLax and purge the system. Let Shaka develop his program and build his own team. Highly doubt you'll be disappointed, hey?

We’ll see.  Texas fans are saying the same thing about their new coach compared to their old coach, hey?

[Hards Alumni]

I think it's amazing that people are guessing what our record will or won't be next year.  Like, I doubt anyone has seen ANY of the new faces play meaningful minutes.  Not to mention, the roster probably isn't set yet.

What possible information could you be deriving your guesses from?  We might be terrible, we might be good, we might be a bologna sandwich or an Apache helicopter.

But saying stuff like:

I can’t see Shaka finishing less than .500 in Conf.

and

As our roster stands now not sure I see better than 1-7 vs. Nova, Xavier, Hall and UConn next season. Kind of like this year except sub Creighton for X.

is hilarious for me to read.  Thanks as usual, fellas.

[4everwarriors]

We’ll see.  Texas fans are saying the same thing about their new coach compared to their old coach, hey?

As they should and with good reason. Pretty sure Shaka will turn out to be our best recruiter in decades. He's the right man at the right time for MU, aina?

[muwarrior69]

The program just stagnated under Wojo and for the last two seasons was in a tailspin that has finally crashed. New coach, new team, let's see if we can fly; but let's not wait 7 years to find out.

[The Lens]

I think it's amazing that people are guessing what our record will or won't be next year.  Like, I doubt anyone has seen ANY of the new faces play meaningful minutes.  Not to mention, the roster probably isn't set yet.

What possible information could you be deriving your guesses from?  We might be terrible, we might be good, we might be a bologna sandwich or an Apache helicopter.

But saying stuff like:

and

is hilarious for me to read.  Thanks as usual, fellas.

Feel free to bookmark and holler back next March.  Tower too.   

[PointWarrior]

I am so happy when we get told what to expect next season by the know it alls - no need to spend anytime understanding the roster additions, the coaching change, or the next 7 months of development.

besides, we had 2 NBA players in the starting 5, we must have had one hell of a season last year...

[The Lens]

I am so happy when we get told what to expect next season by the know it alls - no need to spend anytime understanding the roster additions, the coaching change, or the next 7 months of development.

besides, we had 2 NBA players in the starting 5, we must have had one hell of a season last year...

College hoops is a coaching game.  Players are year to year, building a program is done month to month, not year to year.  When you are saddled with the Tom Creans or Steve Wojos of the world you may get a NCAA season but you're just as likely to get NIT or worse.  When you ride with Buzz or Shaka, it's to the Moon. 

The train is leaving the station, get on board.

[Billy Hoyle]

I am so happy when we get told what to expect next season by the know it alls - no need to spend anytime understanding the roster additions, the coaching change, or the next 7 months of development.

besides, we had 2 NBA players in the starting 5, we must have had one hell of a season last year...

Who?

[Uncle Rico]

As they should and with good reason. Pretty good sure Shaka will turn out to be our best recruiter in decades. He's the right man at the right time for MU, aina?

Hope so.  Doing this again in 6 years would suck

[MUfan12]

Last year's team was deficient in athleticism and coaching. We know they'll be more athletic. If the other part falls into place, a few of those close losses could swing the other way.

I'm just excited to see something resembling a vision when it comes to building the roster. I think this approach lends itself to success in the BE better than bombers who don't guard.

[Goose]

I cannot wait until opening tipoff.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

Go ahead and write the team off 6 months before practice starts and before the roster is finalized if you want to.  But that's a sad way to go through life.

I'm not "writing off the team."  I am acknowledging that rebuilds take time, and that signs of improvement IMO are more realistic than if we make the tournament or not.  If we end up making the tournament?  That's the icing on the cake - not an expectation.

So I will proudly go through life lowering the expectations from my sports teams and being extremely happy if they are exceeded. 

[Jockey]

I don't mind seeing Carton leave and won't mind if Garcia leaves as well. Either one would only be here one more year anyway - the G League is waiting.

Let shaka start with his guys and build his team.

[PointWarrior]

Not to mention with such incredible NBA talent, we got to enjoy a wealth of succces last year.

I don't mind seeing Carton leave and won't mind if Garcia leaves as well. Either one would only be here one more year anyway - the G League is waiting.

Let shaka start with his guys and build his team.

[GoldenWarrior11]

If Shaka's team next year is noticeably better at the end of the season than at the start, the year will be a worthwhile improvement for the program.  It's been beaten to death, but Wojo's teams regressed as individual seasons wore on.

There needs to upward trajectory, regardless of whatever final record it is.

[tower912]

I cannot wait until opening tipoff.

Me, too.   

 I see the youngest team in memory. I never expect much from young teams.   Ergo, I am process oriented and not outcome oriented for the coming season.  I look forward with anticipation to growth throughout the season.   

[Coleman]

As Hards mentioned, I have not seen these guys play any real minutes, so any expectations I may have are going to be blind.

That said, here is what I am hoping for:

More than 1 and done in the Big East Tournament, and at least NIT qualification. Getting as many games as possible for a young team is crucial and will pay dividends in future years. It gives them more time to develop and gel. And if, as others have mentioned, they are on the upswing at the end of the season, a deep NIT run would be great.

The high range of my expectations is .500 in conference, which might sneak us an NCAA bid. However, I would be satisfied with any result that gets us some postseason experience to grow from.

[PointWarrior]

Totally agree Goose.  Watching Shaka a Shaka coached team versus the Wojo train wreck - no brainer.  And Shaka’s team will have more wins next year than Wojo’s last year.

I cannot wait until opening tipoff.

[Hards Alumni]

I'll be happy to see a team that is coached and doesn't get it's doors blown off.  Any record we get is fine for a year or two.  I'd prefer to be good asap, but I'll be patient.

Five years to judge, and all that jazz.

[mix it up]

#4yrstojudge
 ...or was it 5?

[BCHoopster]

You have 3 freshman guard coming in, if one of them can play the point, they will be fine.

[Uncle Rico]

You have 3 freshman guard coming in, if one of them can play the point, they will be fine.

2 of them are Wojo recruits so they can’t play

[PointWarrior]

Maybe Wojo recruits are better if Shaka coaches them instead of Wojo.

2 of them are Wojo recruits so they can’t play

[rocky_warrior]

If Shaka's team next year is noticeably better at the end of the season than at the start, the year will be a worthwhile improvement for the program.  It's been beaten to death, but Wojo's teams regressed as individual seasons wore on.

There needs to upward trajectory, regardless of whatever final record it is.

Agreed, although a few weeks a go I went through looking at Shaka's teams kenpom preseason vs end of season ranking.  Unless I math'd wrong, there were only 3-4 years in his coaching history where his teams exceeded expectations.  I would expect this young team to improve through the year.

I'm excited for next season, But I'm not convinced Shaka is the miracle worker that has been sold here.

[Uncle Rico]

Maybe Wojo recruits are better if Shaka coaches them instead of Wojo.

🤔

[pbiflyer]

I remember watching an open gym one summer with the midgets team. I thought, I'm not sure if they will be good, but they will be fun to watch.
That is my hopes for this team. I want a team that tries hard, fun to watch. Wins will be a bonus.

[Dr. Blackheart]

Agreed, although a few weeks a go I went through looking at Shaka's teams kenpom preseason vs end of season ranking.  Unless I math'd wrong, there were only 3-4 years in his coaching history where his teams exceeded expectations.  I would expect this young team to improve through the year.

I'm excited for next season, But I'm not convinced Shaka is the miracle worker that has been sold here.

Wait, I thought KPom preseason rankings no matta?

[rocky_warrior]

Wait, I thought KPom preseason rankings no matta?

You know I agree!  End of season rankings matter!

But I was told with no uncertainty that it was part of the measuring stick we're supposed to use to evaluate a coach.

[NolongerWarriors]

The fluidity of the roster is to be expected after a coaching change.   The current roster for next season is going to be the youngest I can remember.    I do not ever have high expectations for young teams.   So I am going to focus on the process and not the outcome for this next season.  I will appreciate every win and every competitive loss where learning and growth occur.   But I am not going to sweat the final record.

You never held Wojo accountable, so why would you start with the next coach?

[tower912]

You never held Wojo accountable, so why would you start with the next coach?

You've never said anything positive about anybody, so.... Right back atcha.

[79Warrior]

As they should and with good reason. Pretty sure Shaka will turn out to be our best recruiter in decades. He's the right man at the right time for MU, aina?

Agree. This is now Shaka's team. He is pounding the pavement. The future is bright.

[MU82]

Not only don't we know very much about the team Shaka will put on the floor in November, but we know very little about the rest of the Big East.

I tend to agree that next season will be one filled with growing pains, but that's OK. I look forward to seeing what kind of system Shaka puts in, how the players respond, which players look like they will be standouts in Year 2 or 3, how the guys improve as the season goes along, etc.

I am excited for next season even if we aren't a tourney team, and I believe the FF will have a lot of excitement, too.

Not sure why anybody would choose negativity now, given the circumstances. Pretty sad.

[Silent Verbal]

Maybe we’ll be good next year, and maybe we won’t.  Next year’s W/L results don’t really matter to me.  Hopefully the team is playing better basketball at the end of the year than they were at the beginning, but it’ll be a young team, so that might not happen. 

Mostly, I’m just glad Wojo is gone, and am excited we have a new coach who I believe will be able to recruit really good players and turn the program around.  Wojo’s level of incompetence in the job was pretty remarkable—how does a coach in his seventh season at Marquette *ever* finish 9th in conference and miss the postseason entirely?  Seriously, who cares if DJ, Garcia, Lewis, any of them leave?  There’s no shortage of basketball players out there.  Shaka will get guys, too, and I think we’ll make the tournament in his second year.  And I believe that should be the expectation.

[We R Final Four]

So, we should listen to the same scoopers who said that there was no way that Wojo was being fired as to how a team with a roster that isn’t even complete will play in five months??
I think if I were one of those I would sit this one out.

[keefe]

9th place and a BET blowout finish is a high bar to beat. Respect the process, hey?

Wojo made some pine for those halcyon days of the Tanned One which, on reflection, is pretty pathetic

[keefe]

The program just stagnated smelled worse than a steaming turd under Wojo

[bilsu]

You would think freshmen would get better as the season progresses. However, we have seen more than one freshmen hit the wall halfway through the Big East season.

Two things are pretty consistent with freshmen. They tend not to be strong enough and they tend to get called for a lot of fouls.

[Newsdreams]

You would think freshmen would get better as the season progresses. However, we have seen more than one freshmen hit the wall halfway through the Big East season.

Two things are pretty consistent with freshmen. They tend not to be strong enough and they tend to get called for a lot of fouls.

Didn't some smart coach basically say  best thing about freshmen is they become sophomores

[tower912]

Which brings it full circle.   This season will be more about the process than the outcome.

[Herman Cain]

Which brings it full circle.   This season will be more about the process than the outcome.

Our Coach is still actively recruiting players in the portal. So my view is , pending the results of these efforts ,this season is still about the outcome .

[willie warrior]

We’ll see.  Texas fans are saying the same thing about their new coach compared to their old coach, hey?

Not following Texas fans emotions, but that does sound right.

[1SE]

If we get anyeam that is more than the sum of its parts, and Shaka has a good recruiting season thats all we need in year 1. Any actual accomplishments are icing on the cake.

[PointWarrior]

Good time to bump this one - some wonderful know-it-alls “telling us how it’s going to be this season”


My favorite take:   https://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=61966.msg1347359#msg1347359

[tower912]

Enjoying the hell out of the process.   Still enjoying the wins and not sweating the losses.   The growth is impressive.

[PointWarrior]

Another good time to bump this thread.

[1SE]

It's the advantage of the COLE, you're either right or pleasantly surprised.

[PointWarrior]

well-stated 1SE.

It's the advantage of the COLE, you're either right or pleasantly surprised.

[MU82]

It's the advantage of the COLE, you're either right or pleasantly surprised.

I clearly remember you saying we'd sweep Nova and would be looking at a top-20 ranking. Well done!

[1SE]

I clearly remember you saying we'd sweep Nova and would be looking at a top-20 ranking. Well done!

This team continues to outperform my (adjusted) expectations. But I have been raising them accordingly throughout the season. At the start of the season I thought we'd just sneak into the NCAAT. I still thought that after the 1st Creighton loss. After we won @Nova I thought we'd certainly be in and was thinking we'd be in the 7-10 seed range with hope for a 6. I am now thinking we can get a protected seed and the 2nd weekend. We win out and I'm thinking FF.

[The Lens]

I can’t see Shaka finishing less than .500 in Conf.

'sup

[The Lens]

Need to clean off your lens.

'sup

[MU82]

This team continues to outperform my (adjusted) expectations. But I have been raising them accordingly throughout the season. At the start of the season I thought we'd just sneak into the NCAAT. I still thought that after the 1st Creighton loss. After we won @Nova I thought we'd certainly be in and was thinking we'd be in the 7-10 seed range with hope for a 6. I am now thinking we can get a protected seed and the 2nd weekend. We win out and I'm thinking FF.

I really get a kick out of this line of posting from you.

On the one hand, you have had many, many comments in which you expressed very low expectations, including predicting 1-5 for this stretch of games in which we've gone 4-1 so far. You have said that was a matter of your expectations being "realistic at the time" but then being adjusted after the fact.

On the other hand, anybody else who was being realistic about their expectations before and/or earlier in the season gets labeled by you as being part of the cult of low expectations ... even if they have adjusted their expectations as the season has progressed.

Right now, I think we have a legit shot at the Final Four. You say you'll think so only if we win out. But I know ... I know ... you're not in the COLE, you're just realistically reacting to your constantly adjusting expectations, or something like that.

I hope you have a friend or family member who can help you extract yourself from the logic pretzel you've twisted yourself into. I wish you luck.

We Are Marquette!