The Young Pups

[jsglow]

As the calendar turns to December, we've got two wet behind the ears Frosh who can play the game at a high level.  Both will play 20+ meaningful minutes during BEast conference play and three years from now both will have opponents saying 'Haven't they graduated yet?'

Discuss.

[Lennys Tap]

Marcus reminds me of Aaron Hutchins. Best offensive point guard at MU since I'm not sure who. And Sam is a great shooter who's solid in every phase. They'll be fun to watch for years.

[mujivitz06]

Marcus reminds me of Aaron Hutchins. Best offensive point guard at MU since I'm not sure who. And Sam is a great shooter who's solid in every phase. They'll be fun to watch for years.

Travis? DJ?

[wadesworld]

Marcus reminds me of Aaron Hutchins. Best offensive point guard at MU since I'm not sure who. And Sam is a great shooter who's solid in every phase. They'll be fun to watch for years.

Pump the breaks. He had a nice game against a horrendous team. He's averaging 2.7 ppg against high major opponents this year. He might be the 3rd best offensive point guard on the current roster.

[GooooMarquette]

Pump the breaks. He had a nice game against a horrendous team. He's averaging 2.7 ppg against high major opponents this year. He might be the 3rd best offensive point guard on the current roster.

And Aaron Hutchins averaged a total of 5.5 ppg as a frosh...mostly because he got better and better as the season wore on.

Given that and where Marcus is right now, I don't think Hutch is a bad comparison at all.

[Loose Cannon]

  I see some Tyus Jones in Markus and Sam just pure form on his 3's.  I'm more confident on his 3's than any other shooter on this team.

[jaygall31]

It's so refreshing after the past few  seasons to have multiple guys capable of knocking down from deep.

[warriorchick]

It's so refreshing after the past few  seasons to have multiple guys capable of knocking down from deep.

I posted on the game thread that we need to bring back the 3 goggles.  It's the first time I have thought of them in years.

[wadesworld]

And Aaron Hutchins averaged a total of 5.5 ppg as a frosh...mostly because he got better and better as the season wore on.

Given that and where Marcus is right now, I don't think Hutch is a bad comparison at all.

I was directing it at the claim that Markus is "the best offensive point guard we have had in years."  As of right now he's the 3rd best offensive point guard on the roster.  Is his ceiling the highest offensive ceiling of any point guard we've had in years?  Sure we could talk about that.

Just saying, keep in mind that in 2 of the 3 games we've played against high major opponents Markus has looked lost and overmatched.  Huge potential.  I'm not ready to say he's the best offensive point guard in a long time at MU.

[Marcus92]

I posted on the game thread that we need to bring back the 3 goggles. It's the first time I have thought of them in years.

As long as they do it while sprinting back on defense.

[Windyplayer]

I posted on the game thread that we need to bring back the 3 goggles.  It's the first time I have thought of them in years.

Yes. Although I think they are more fun when you're winning at a high clip, a la, DJO flashing them when were beating down blue bloods in quite possibly the greatest conference ever constructed.

[warriorchick]

Yes. Although I think they are more fun when you're winning at a high clip, a la, DJO flashing them when were beating down blue bloods in quite possibly the greatest conference ever constructed.

I have a favorite picture of Jae doing one as he hustling back on defense, but I haven't been able to find it online.

Can someone help a sister out?

[Jay Bee]

Markus 2 NBA

[jsglow]

Markus 2 NBA

I don't see it JB.  He's so small and certainly at this point his on ball D wouldn't be close to good enough.  He could develop a good enough shot as he has the range.

[Lennys Tap]

I was directing it at the claim that Markus is "the best offensive point guard we have had in years."  As of right now he's the 3rd best offensive point guard on the roster.  Is his ceiling the highest offensive ceiling of any point guard we've had in years?  Sure we could talk about that.

Just saying, keep in mind that in 2 of the 3 games we've played against high major opponents Markus has looked lost and overmatched.  Huge potential.  I'm not ready to say he's the best offensive point guard in a long time at MU.

We have 2 point guards. Markus and Traci. IMO Marcus is right now a much better offensive player than Traci. He's also better (offensively) than past PGs DW, Junior and DJ. Travis graduated in 2005. That's a pretty long time.

[77ncaachamps]

Really curious to see how Wojo and the coaching staff manage H&H's minutes.

They're gonna hit a wall sometime around late January/early February as they're not used to as many high-intensity minutes, games, travel, etc.

[wadesworld]

We have 2 point guards. Markus and Traci. IMO Marcus is right now a much better offensive player than Traci. He's also better (offensively) than past PGs DW, Junior and DJ. Travis graduated in 2005. That's a pretty long time.

Again, in 2 of our 3 games against major competition he's looked entirely overmatched and lost on the court.  I have no doubt he's going to be a good player for Marquette, but I trust Traci and Rowsey much more to handle the ball than I do Howard when it comes to teams that are better than the teams Howard was playing at Findlay Prep.

Against Vandy, Michigan, and Pitt he shot a combined 2-8 from the field (25%), 2-5 from 3 (40%), 8 points (2.67 per gam), 6 rebounds (2 per game), 4 assists (1.33 per game), 0 steals, 4 turnovers (1.33 per game), and 9 fouls (3 per game) in 36 minutes (12 per game).  More fouls than points, twice as many fouls as assists, as many turnovers as assists, etc.

He could prove to be a better offensive point guard than anyone in a while, but let's remember he had a great night against Western Carolina.  No, not North Carolina.  Western Carolina.

He's a freshman who at this point is better off the ball.

PS You may want to look up Dominic James's stats.  The guy was *okay* offensively.

[Jay Bee]

I don't see it JB.  He's so small and certainly at this point his on ball D wouldn't be close to good enough.  He could develop a good enough shot as he has the range.

U not understand meaning of Markus 2 NBA

But it shall be revealed

[4everwarriors]

Can't stand da suspense, hey?

[Jay Bee]

Can't stand da suspence, hey?

Dat ain't in my vocab, joe

Guess good games vs weaker opps only matters for Butler's Kamar

[bilsu]

Currently Henry Ellenson is tied with Anthony Pieper for the 10th most 3 point shots made as a freshmen. Both Markus and Sam may surpass his 30 makes before the start of conference play. Freshmen record is 57 by Diener and there is a good chance that they both surpass Diener.

[Lennys Tap]

PS You may want to look up Dominic James's stats.  The guy was *okay* offensively.

I did - obviously you didn't. 40.8% shooter, 29.1% 3pt shooter, 62% ft shooter, 46.3 eFG%, 1.4 asst/TO ratio. Sorry, those are not *okay* stats. He was a bad shooter who shot a lot - until his senior year when he became a bad shooter who shot less.

PS - if you really think Traci Carter will ever be a better offensive player than Markus Howard is right now we're not watching the same players.

[wadesworld]

I did - obviously you didn't. 40.8% shooter, 29.1% 3pt shooter, 62% ft shooter, 46.3 eFG%, 1.4 asst/TO ratio. Sorry, those are not *okay* stats. He was a bad shooter who shot a lot - until his senior year when he became a bad shooter who shot less.

PS - if you really think Traci Carter will ever be a better offensive player than Markus Howard is right now we're not watching the same players.

Traci is almost doubling Markus's assist percentage, over doubling Markus's assist/turnover ratio, and shooting nearly an identical eFG%.  We must be watching different players.

[Lennys Tap]

Traci is almost doubling Markus's assist percentage, over doubling Markus's assist/turnover ratio, and shooting nearly an identical eFG%.  We must be watching different players.

Obvious to all that Traci is vastly better defensively than Markus. And you also think Traci has the edge offensively? If true, only one explanation why they're essentially splitting time - Wojo's a total idiot. I don't think so.

[jsglow]

I'm a big Traci fan. I'll be ecstatic if MH can elevate his on ball D against a quality PG. But the boy (17) can shoot the rock.

[wadesworld]

Obvious to all that Traci is vastly better defensively than Markus. And you also think Traci has the edge offensively? If true, only one explanation why they're essentially splitting time - Wojo's a total idiot. I don't think so.

Not splitting time in games where we aren't up by 40 in the first half. Again, there's no doubt Markus can light up the likes of Western Carolina and Howard. But he's put up doughnuts on the scoreboard in 2/3 of or games against even remotely quality opponents and has more fouls than points in those 3 games.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Actually, Howard has a better defensive rating than Carter. But Carter has a better offensive rating than Howard. I was surprised when I ran the numbers.

[wadesworld]

Actually, Howard has a better defensive rating than Carter. But Carter has a better offensive rating than Howard. I was surprised when I ran the numbers.

Does defensive rating take fouls into account? Because Markus fouls at an insanely high clip. Which makes sense given he's a few months removed from high school and the speed of the game certainly isn't the same.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Does defensive rating take fouls into account? Because Markus fouls at an insanely high clip. Which makes sense given he's a few months removed from high school and the speed of the game certainly isn't the same.

Yes.

[Jay Bee]

Does defensive rating take fouls into account? Because Markus fouls at an insanely high clip. Which makes sense given he's a few months removed from high school and the speed of the game certainly isn't the same.

Markus doesn't foul at a high clip; Traci gets called more often

Traci's turnover rate is higher than Markus'

The upside comp b/w the two isn't even close

Markus 2 NBA

[MU82]

We have 2 point guards. Markus and Traci. IMO Marcus is right now a much better offensive player than Traci. He's also better (offensively) than past PGs DW, Junior and DJ. Travis graduated in 2005. That's a pretty long time.

Um ... Dawson! Hello!

[Bocephys]

Um ... Dawson! Hello!

[GoldenDieners32]

Markus doesn't foul at a high clip; Traci gets called more often

Traci's turnover rate is higher than Markus'

The upside comp b/w the two isn't even close

Markus 2 NBA

I feel like Markus has drawn more fouls. He's took lots of charges already this season
 

[Marcus92]

Really curious to see how Wojo and the coaching staff manage H&H's minutes.

They're gonna hit a wall sometime around late January/early February as they're not used to as many high-intensity minutes, games, travel, etc.

I wouldn't be concerned about this. Both traveled and played extensively in high school. Markus competed on the 2015 USA U16 national team that won gold in Argentina. Sam played in tournaments across the country as part of AAU ball. They're both ready-for-primetime players.

[HoopsterBC]

Not splitting time in games where we aren't up by 40 in the first half. Again, there's no doubt Markus can light up the likes of Western Carolina and Howard. But he's put up doughnuts on the scoreboard in 2/3 of or games against even remotely quality opponents and has more fouls than points in those 3 games.

Wadesworld, I will have to agree that you have to score or play better against better teams.  I was at the Michigan game in NY, he was overmatched, period.  He lacks
a little quickness right now, but that will improve once he gets a little older.  Shooting wise as good as anybody that MU has had, close to Diener.  It would be nice if
he had a little growth spurt left.  Become more of a 2 guard.  Lets face it, if he was in high school were he belongs age wise, he would be a 5* player this year.  I believe
he will be at MU for the full four years,  should be the go to star his junior and senior year.  A player I believe you can build a program around.  They lose Duane and Rowsey after next year,  lets see if he can help get his running partner.

[wadesworld]

Wadesworld, I will have to agree that you have to score or play better against better teams.  I was at the Michigan game in NY, he was overmatched, period.  He lacks
a little quickness right now, but that will improve once he gets a little older.  Shooting wise as good as anybody that MU has had, close to Diener.  It would be nice if
he had a little growth spurt left.  Become more of a 2 guard.  Lets face it, if he was in high school were he belongs age wise, he would be a 5* player this year.  I believe
he will be at MU for the full four years,  should be the go to star his junior and senior year.  A player I believe you can build a program around.  They lose Duane and Rowsey after next year,  lets see if he can help get his running partner.

+1

[Jay Bee]

Wadesworld, I will have to agree that you have to score or play better against better teams.  I was at the Michigan game in NY, he was overmatched

Markus v Mich: 21 min, Ortg of 119, 4dr
Traci v Mich: 19 min, 0% eFG, 3 to's, Ortg of 12.

[wadesworld]

Markus v Mich: 21 min, Ortg of 119, 4dr
Traci v Mich: 19 min, 0% eFG, 3 to's, Ortg of 12.

What about Vandy and Pitt?

[4everwarriors]

I'm a big Traci fan. I'll be ecstatic if MH can elevate his on ball D against a quality PG. But the boy (17) can shoot the rock.

Guessin' ya grew up on da south side of MKE in da 60's, ai na?

[Lennys Tap]

Markus v Mich: 21 min, Ortg of 119, 4dr
Traci v Mich: 19 min, 0% eFG, 3 to's, Ortg of 12.

Lol. You can't make this sh#t up! What Michigan game were BC and Wades watching?

[wadesworld]

Lol. You can't make this sh#t up! What Michigan game were BC and Wades watching?

Did anybody argue Traci was better against Michigan?  I can't speak for BC, but I certainly didn't.  If we were discussing just a single game in the season then sure, Markus was better against Michigan.  No argument there.  Seems silly to look at a single game and conclude one is better than the other but hey, to each their own.

Again, how about the Vandy and Pitt games?  Guess we'll just "make that sh#t up," and ignore the season long stats to just look at a one game sample size.  Always a sound strategy there...

[PaintTouches]

As the lead Bandwagoner on the Traci Train, I think the discussion of best offensive player is pretty clearly Howard, even with the struggles he's had, because he is a natural shooter and scorer. However, Traci is still a better true-PG because he creates more open shots for others, which I think this team needs, at times, more than a scorer right now.

Scoring comes naturally for MH, deferring comes naturally for TC.

There's no need to pit them against each other though. The OP was about the excitement at having two young players looking ready to play this early on, which everyone agrees on. I think we'll be seeing a bit more or Traci at the 1 and Howard at the 2 this season and a LOT more next season.

Traci, Markus, Haanif, Sam, (Heldt/John). Now that is exciting.   

[Lennys Tap]

Did anybody argue Traci was better against Michigan?  I can't speak for BC, but I certainly didn't. 

BC said Markus (Ortg 113 in 21 minutes) looked "overmatched" against Michigan. You gave his post a +1.

Fact is, Markus was solid against Michigan. It was Traci who appeared "overmatched".

[bilsu]

Traci is a true point guard and therefore the better point guard.
Howard is a combo guard. Actually he is a shooting guard in a point guards body. Howard is the better overall player.
Wojo's offense does not depend on having a point guard, since he wants all of his guards to be able to initiate the offense.

[wadesworld]

BC said Markus (Ortg 113 in 21 minutes) looked "overmatched" against Michigan. You gave his post a +1.

Fact is, Markus was solid against Michigan. It was Traci who appeared "overmatched".

I gave him a +1 for his entire post, not for 4 words in a paragraph long post.  He's right, Howard should be a high school senior right now and if he was he'd be a 5 star recruit.  Right now he's better off the ball and he'll be here for 4 years and be a complete stud his junior and senior years.  There was absolutely nothing in his post that said "Markus played worse than Traci in the Michigan game," or anything close to it.  It didn't even mention Traci at all.

There is absolutely no denying Markus has a much, much higher ceiling than any MU point guard since James.  I am not denying that in the least bit.  I'm saying that as of right now, against the 3 high majors we have played, Traci overall has played better than Markus has.  Yes, Markus was better than Traci in the Michigan game, but Traci was much, much, much, much, much better in the Vandy game and simply better in the Pitt game.

My only point is, let's let the kid go off once or twice more against someone not named Western Carolina before we crown him the "best offensive PG MU has had since Travis Diener."  I expect him to be better than any PG since James by the time he is actually our best PG option.  But as of right now he is not that yet.

I'll let you take it from here because there's only so many different ways I can say the same thing, and I'm running out of them.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

What about Vandy and Pitt?

Vandy:
Carter- 161.9 O-Rating, 100.99 D-Rating
Howard- 45.47 O-Rating, 101.28 D-Rating

Pitt:
Carter- 98.13 O-Rating, 98.87 D-Rarting
Howard- 0.00 O-Rating, 101.71 D-Rating

[wadesworld]

Vandy:
Carter- 161.9 O-Rating, 100.99 D-Rating
Howard- 45.47 O-Rating, 101.28 D-Rating

Pitt:
Carter- 98.13 O-Rating, 98.87 D-Rarting
Howard- 0.00 O-Rating, 101.71 D-Rating

Thanks.

[Marcus92]

The competition between them has already made Traci and Markus better. These guys play against each other every day. They're both high major Division I talents. I like what I've seen so far. But I expect to see them improve throughout the season.

[Loose Cannon]

.

Scoring comes naturally for MH, deferring comes naturally for TC.

There's no need to pit them against each other though. The OP was about the excitement at having two young players looking ready to play this early on, which everyone agrees on. I think we'll be seeing a bit more or Traci at the 1 and Howard at the 2 this season and a LOT more next season.

Traci, Markus, Haanif, Sam, (Heldt/John). Now that is exciting.   

Absolutely agree.

[HoopsterBC]

I gave him a +1 for his entire post, not for 4 words in a paragraph long post.  He's right, Howard should be a high school senior right now and if he was he'd be a 5 star recruit.  Right now he's better off the ball and he'll be here for 4 years and be a complete stud his junior and senior years.  There was absolutely nothing in his post that said "Markus played worse than Traci in the Michigan game," or anything close to it.  It didn't even mention Traci at all.

There is absolutely no denying Markus has a much, much higher ceiling than any MU point guard since James.  I am not denying that in the least bit.  I'm saying that as of right now, against the 3 high majors we have played, Traci overall has played better than Markus has.  Yes, Markus was better than Traci in the Michigan game, but Traci was much, much, much, much, much better in the Vandy game and simply better in the Pitt game.

My only point is, let's let the kid go off once or twice more against someone not named Western Carolina before we crown him the "best offensive PG MU has had since Travis Diener."  I expect him to be better than any PG since James by the time he is actually our best PG option.  But as of right now he is not that yet.

I'll let you take it from here because there's only so many different ways I can say the same thing, and I'm running out of them.

+1,  One point I will make is that when Markus shoots the ball, I have confidence he will make it, with Traci, not yet.  Compared to last year Traci has really played
better.  Quicker and better defender on ball then Markus, this is where age does matter.  I agree that Markus is more of a combo guard,  Traci a true point guard.  MU
problem is playing them both at the same time, no height. 

[ChitownSpaceForRent]

But me in the Traci "The Engine" Carter camp for this year.

Markus is like Duane with a higher upside, can hold his own as a PG, but probably better suited playing off the ball as he did for team USA.

[MU82]

Traci is a true point guard and therefore the better point guard.

Define "true point guard."

Chris Paul scores a lot of points and takes most big shots for the Clippers, but he's a pretty pure PG.

Russell Westbrook averages 10+ assists. He's pure enough for me.

Steph Curry is the best PG in the NBA. Scored 30 a game last year. Pure enough?

Kemba Walker is great at setting up his teammates but he has become an All-Star for the Hornets because he is scoring 25+ points. Purely speaking.

Etc, etc, etc.

I mean, call me crazy, but I'd take an unpure Curry type over a Traci type of pure PG every day of the week.

Of course, Markus Howard is not quite Steph Curry - but that's not what this is about. It's about pure vs. unpure.

Disclosure: I like both Markus and Traci. They'd make one hell of a player if somebody in the MU Science Dept. could combine 'em!

[jsglow]

Plus Markus can certainly get minutes at the #2 in addition to maybe 10-15 at the #1.  Traci only plays the #1 where he'll certainly see 20+ minutes every night.  As Eng said on the pod, it might be a bit of a matchup advantage that they play the position somewhat differently.

[Jay Bee]

Traci only plays the #1 where he'll certainly see 20+ minutes every night.

Define "certainly"? Or "see". When will this occur? Every game he's been sub-20 except 1 at 20 & 1 at 21.

"He may occasionally see 20+!minutes" works better, ainnner?

[jsglow]

And today Traci played only 9.

Oh, how 'bout them pups? 

[GGGG]

Wojo has brought in seven freshman since he got here.

Four of them have been very good.  (Henry, Haanif, Sam and Markus)
Two of them have been contributors  (Matt, Traci)
One is a project on redshirt (Sacar)

I can live with that.

[Loose Cannon]

Wojo has brought in seven freshman since he got here.

Four of them have been very good.  (Henry, Haanif, Sam and Markus)
Two of them have been contributors  (Matt, Traci)
One is a project on redshirt (Sacar)

I can live with that.

All Good

[jsglow]

Wojo has brought in seven freshman since he got here.

Four of them have been very good.  (Henry, Haanif, Sam and Markus)
Two of them have been contributors  (Matt, Traci)
One is a project on redshirt (Sacar)

I can live with that.

Excellent point.  And let's remember that in the Spring of '15 Wojo HAD to sign a PG.  Not disappointed with the engine at all.

[mug644]

Wojo has brought in seven freshman since he got here.

Four of them have been very good.  (Henry, Haanif, Sam and Markus)
Two of them have been contributors  (Matt, Traci)
One is a project on redshirt (Sacar)

I can live with that.

Boombatz!

[jesmu84]

Wojo has brought in seven freshman since he got here.

Four of them have been very good.  (Henry, Haanif, Sam and Markus)
Two of them have been contributors  (Matt, Traci)
One is a project on redshirt (Sacar)

I can live with that.

It'll be interesting to see what Bailey is like when/if he comes

[Jay Bee]

And today Traci played only 9.

Oh, how 'bout them pups? 

Exactly.

[Lennys Tap]

I was directing it at the claim that Markus is "the best offensive point guard we have had in years."  As of right now he's the 3rd best offensive point guard on the roster. 

Still standing by this statement?

[wadesworld]

Still standing by this statement?

Yes.  I'm very glad he had a great game.  I look forward to seeing if he can put together a string of great games, a great season, and a great career.

R-E-L-A-X.  Do you still think Brandon Jennings is the best Buck in the last 40 years because he once scored 55 points as a rookie?

[Lennys Tap]

Yes.  I'm very glad he had a great game.  I look forward to seeing if he can put together a string of great games, a great season, and a great career.

R-E-L-A-X.  Do you still think Brandon Jennings is the best Buck in the last 40 years because he once scored 55 points as a rookie?

Still? I never said anything about Brandon Jennings - ever. WTF are you talking about? I said that Markus was a better offensive player than Traci Carter. He is. Just the eye test would show anyone who has watched a little basketball that. My guess is that it does but you're just being stubborn.

[wadesworld]

Still? I never said anything about Brandon Jennings - ever. WTF are you talking about? I said that Markus was a better offensive player than Traci Carter. He is. Just the eye test would show anyone who has watched a little basketball that. My guess is that it does but you're just being stubborn.

All I'm saying is that 1 or 2 games in a career does not make someone better than any other player.  I am hopeful that Markus will be a stud.  So far he has had some mixed reviews, but it seems like he's figuring it out.  I've seen too much college basketball to look at a player's recruiting ranking or stats against a no name low major school and come to a conclusion that he's the best offensive point guard a program has seen in 10-15 years.

Hence the Brandon Jennings question.  Awesome, the guy was at one point in his life considered to be a sure fire top draft pick, a McDonald's AA (and MVP of that game), a can't miss prospect who came in and, in like his 12th game as a pro or something, scored 55 points.  WOAH!  Best offensive player the Bucks have seen since Kareem!  Err...

He clearly has the highest ceiling.  Today was a great performance.  Let's hope for more to come.