Interesting outside perspective on big time basketball and Buzz

[mu03eng]

This isn't the only board I follow, also a poster on a Penn State SB Nation board(for football) but occasionally there are basketball articles.  The one below is from the PSU basketball(which is horrible) and why they can't just throw money at a coach and expect positive results.

http://www.blackshoediaries.com/2014/7/15/5898803/penn-state-basketball-larry-brown-buzz-williams-pat-chambers-hire-big-name-coach

Not that we really need another thread on Buzz, but I thought there was some good perspective from the outside on the old regime, albeit with a bit of a grudge.  Also a good perspective on why we should be grateful for the program we have and the investment the AD and Board make in the program.

[NersEllenson]

Nice find.  Very interesting.  If coaching fails, Buzz would be a hell of an agent!

[mu_hilltopper]

Wow .. the word "excoriated" comes to mind, in respect to his comments on Buzz.

[GGGG]

This is why the line about him leaving for less money doesn't make sense.  Of his $2.8M, that wasn't all straight salary.  A good portion of that was payments to "Team Buzz Williams" very similar to what he has in his Virginia Tech contract. 

[keefe]

This isn't the only board I follow, also a poster on a Penn State SB Nation board(for football)

Whiskey Tango Foxtrot Oscar


Here's a link to a proud tradition

http://umgoblue.com/

[bilsu]

The article started out questioning whether Penn St should pay big dollars for a successful big name coach and if that would change their basketball fortunes? What struck me is when was the last time MU hired a head coach that anyone heard of? In spite of that MU has had great success starting with the McGuire hire, who was a little known coach from Belmont Abbey. Raymonds, Majerus, O'Neil, Crean, Williams and Wojo were all assistant coaches when hired. I know I had never heard of Bob Dukiet and Mike Dean before MU hired them and you could argue that they showed why it is better to hire a young assistant.

The other thing I learned from the article was that Minnesota won the NIT.

[brandx]

Wow .. the word "excoriated" comes to mind, in respect to his comments on Buzz.

Indeed! And well deserved as well.

[Windyplayer]

The other thing I learned from the article was that Minnesota won the NIT.

I could read this over and over and if someone asked me tomorrow who won the NIT, the question would be met with a blank stare.

[mu03eng]

Whiskey Tango Foxtrot Oscar


Here's a link to a proud tradition

http://umgoblue.com/

Didn't realize tradition allowed 50 years between national championships  

[mu03eng]

The article started out questioning whether Penn St should pay big dollars for a successful big name coach and if that would change their basketball fortunes? What struck me is when was the last time MU hired a head coach that anyone heard of? In spite of that MU has had great success starting with the McGuire hire, who was a little known coach from Belmont Abbey. Raymonds, Majerus, O'Neil, Crean, Williams and Wojo were all assistant coaches when hired. I know I had never heard of Bob Dukiet and Mike Dean before MU hired them and you could argue that they showed why it is better to hire a young assistant.

The other thing I learned from the article was that Minnesota won the NIT.

But keep in mind, MU has a winning tradition before the modern era.  I think it is much harder to build a winning program now then to keep one going.  Yes there were lean years in the 90s but it wasn't too tough to resurrect the tradition and passion to use as recruiting tool.  Plus location matters if you don't have a winning tradition....recruits are a heckuva lot more tempted by Florida Gulf Coast than some state university in the middle of the Pocono mountains where the next largest population size is the federal prison 45 minutes down the road.

[GGGG]

I will point out that this article was written from perspective that seemed to look to justify why a program shouldn't pay big bucks for a basketball coach.

However, my guess is that if Chambers was fired by PSU, and they hired Buzz for a deal similar to what he got at VPI, that the PSU fanbase would be pretty happy about it. 

[mu03eng]

I will point out that this article was written from perspective that seemed to look to justify why a program shouldn't pay big bucks for a basketball coach.

However, my guess is that if Chambers was fired by PSU, and they hired Buzz for a deal similar to what he got at VPI, that the PSU fanbase would be pretty happy about it. 

If you look at a lot of the comments, at least the internet majority disagree with you.  Some schools might, but I doubt PSU bball fans would be ok with it, especially given the ridiculously lucrative contract and the lack of institutional control that seems to come with it that VT signed up for.

That contract is just begging for trouble given some of Williams propensity to "see the best side of things" that also conveniently helps his side of things.  IMHO

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

If you look at a lot of the comments, at least the internet majority disagree with you.  Some schools might, but I doubt PSU bball fans would be ok with it, especially given the ridiculously lucrative contract and the lack of institutional control that seems to come with it that VT signed up for.

That contract is just begging for trouble given some of Williams propensity to "see the best side of things" that also conveniently helps his side of things.  IMHO

I think that's just the hypocrisy of fans.

When Buzz was here, a lot of people were lovin' his down home charm.

The minute he left, people hated it.

Logically, you are correct, of course, but we know fans don't always use logic much (if at all).

[Lennys Tap]

If you look at a lot of the comments, at least the internet majority disagree with you.  Some schools might, but I doubt PSU bball fans would be ok with it, especially given the ridiculously lucrative contract and the lack of institutional control that seems to come with it that VT signed up for.

Yeah, the majority of Penn State fans would never go for a situation where there's a lack of institutional control over any part of the athletic department. LOL

[mu03eng]

Yeah, the majority of Penn State fans would never go for a situation where there's a lack of institutional control over any part of the athletic department. LOL

Let's just not go there...doesn't end well for anybody.

[ecc5051]

Most of the kids today are recruited by the coach and not by the tradition of the school. Why do you think all the recruits followed Buzz down south? A great recruiter/coach can make any school a winner.

[ChicosBailBonds]

SMU is trying this with Larry Brown, and I'd argue with success, but how limiting due to his age, etc?

Texas Tech with Bobby Knight.

San Diego State with Fisher

Northwestern trying with Collins.


Buzz will do well at Va Tech.

[Tugg Speedman]

SMU is trying this with Larry Brown, and I'd argue with success, but how limiting due to his age, etc?

Texas Tech with Bobby Knight.
San Diego State with Fisher
Northwestern trying with Collins.

Buzz will do well at Va Tech.

How would VT define "well" (big picture, not next year)?  He took over a perennial last place ACC team, is moving up one spot in the ACC standings mean he has done "well"?  Five spots?  Does he have to cut down the nets at the ACC tourney to have done well?  Consider how much money and power VT is giving him when answering?

[Dawson Rental]

How would VT define "well" (big picture, not next year)?  He took over a perennial last place ACC team, is moving up one spot in the ACC standings mean he has done "well"?  Five spots?  Does he have to cut down the nets at the ACC tourney to have done well?  Consider how much money and power VT is giving him when answering?

Whatever happens this year, I think that buzz gets a mulligan.  After that, the expectation is that VT will regularly finish in the top half of the conference.  Most years that should include a NCAA invite with a NIT invite on the few occasions that the ACC has a down year.  All this means in a 15 team ACC is that VT must consistently finish at the top of the heap of those teams finishing behind Syracuse, Louisville, Duke, North Carolina, North Carolina State and Virgina until, of course, VT joins the aforementioned teams in the scrum for the ACC's top spot.

Anyway, that's what VT's AD stated when he was announcing the job opening.  I've got to think that in reality (especially given the way Buzz is protected in his contract) the expectations will be less.  If not, Buzz is facing a challenge at least as big as what he ran away from here.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

How would VT define "well" (big picture, not next year)?  He took over a perennial last place ACC team, is moving up one spot in the ACC standings mean he has done "well"?  Five spots?  Does he have to cut down the nets at the ACC tourney to have done well?  Consider how much money and power VT is giving him when answering?

Well, according to his salary, they should be in the tourny every year.

However, a school like VT has to overpay because coaches know it's a tough(er) place to win.

So, realistically, success for Buzz@VT would probably be:

10 seasons (he probably won't make that long, but it's a nice round number)
- 4 tourny bids
- 1 sweet sixteen
- finish middle of the conf. or better 6+ times
- Top 4 in the conference 2 times

Now, these are off the top of my head, so these are just ideas of what "success" at VT might look like. Maybe an additional tourny run somewhere in there?

[Tugg Speedman]

Whatever happens this year, I think that buzz gets a mulligan.  After that, the expectation is that VT will regularly finish in the top half of the conference.  Most years that should include a NCAA invite with a NIT invite on the few occasions that the ACC has a down year.  All this means in a 15 team ACC is that VT must consistently finish at the top of the heap of those teams finishing behind Syracuse, Louisville, Duke, North Carolina, North Carolina State and Virgina until, of course, VT joins the aforementioned teams in the scrum for the ACC's top spot.

Anyway, that's what VT's AD stated when he was announcing the job opening.  I've got to think that in reality (especially given the way Buzz is protected in his contract) the expectations will be less.  If not, Buzz is facing a challenge at least as big as what he ran away from here.

You listed 6 of the 15 teams.  If VT is 7th on this list (middle of the ACC) then they are expected to be a better program than ND, Pitt, Maryland, Wake, Boston College, Miami, Georgia Tech and Clemson.

You think this is realistic?

Here is my point, for Brent everything is riding on next year's recruiting class.  If we assume he finishes last this year in the ACC (safe assumption), if he does not get some players this fall/winter to commit, then they get no buzz (no pun intended) and Brent falls into invisibility in the very bottom of the ACC.  No press, no attention, no excitement.  He becomes a trivia question.

Remember VT is not IU.  VT's name alone does not get it attention like IU.  VT's attention now is Brent.  And to keep it going he has to either win (which he will not do next year) or get recruits.

Goodman and Katz are not going to waste their time with stories and attention for the 10th to 13th best ACC team with the 35th to 41st best recruiting class.

Disagree?  You think he can stink and not get good recruits for two years and still have the cache to turn it around?

[tower912]

That is what JUCO's are for.   Buzz is never going to be out of it as long as he can recruit JUCO's.

[ChicosBailBonds]

How would VT define "well" (big picture, not next year)?  He took over a perennial last place ACC team, is moving up one spot in the ACC standings mean he has done "well"?  Five spots?  Does he have to cut down the nets at the ACC tourney to have done well?  Consider how much money and power VT is giving him when answering?

Since 1987, they have been to two NCAA tournaments, only one in the last 18 years.  Greenberg got them close, but couldn't do it repeatedly.  Success, IMO, would be to make it 2 times in a 5 year period, something they haven't done since the mid 80's. 

[Tugg Speedman]

That is what JUCO's are for.   Buzz is never going to be out of it as long as he can recruit JUCO's.

I'm not saying he will not do it, I'm saying his time line is very short.

And yes, he better reach into the Juco hat and pull out a Jimmy Butler, Jae Crowder, Dwight Buycks and/or DJO this fall.  He cannot reach in and pull out a Montrele Clark, TJ Taylor or Jameel McKay.

[Lennys Tap]

At Marquette, success for Buzz was being our best coach ever not named Al McGuire. No Al in V Tech's history book. Success will be being their #1 basketball coach ever. Anything less will be failure.

[Dawson Rental]

You listed 6 of the 15 teams.  If VT is 7th on this list (middle of the ACC) then they are expected to be a better program than ND, Pitt, Maryland, Wake, Boston College, Miami, Georgia Tech and Clemson.

You think this is realistic?

Here is my point, for Brent everything is riding on next year's recruiting class.  If we assume he finishes last this year in the ACC (safe assumption), if he does not get some players this fall/winter to commit, then they get no buzz (no pun intended) and Brent falls into invisibility in the very bottom of the ACC.  No press, no attention, no excitement.  He becomes a trivia question.

Remember VT is not IU.  VT's name alone does not get it attention like IU.  VT's attention now is Brent.  And to keep it going he has to either win (which he will not do next year) or get recruits.

Goodman and Katz are not going to waste their time with stories and attention for the 10th to 13th best ACC team with the 35th to 41st best recruiting class.

Disagree?  You think he can stink and not get good recruits for two years and still have the cache to turn it around?

Maryland is leaving.  The other team in the eight that Buzz must beat is Florida State, which is by no means a slouch, either.

My answer wasn't based on what I thought was realistic, it was based on what VT's AD was saying prior to hiring Buzz.  It seems wildly unrealistic to me, but MU's 2012-13 season was somewhat unrealistic, as well.  Yet, Buzz reportedly left MU, in part, because he felt that he couldn't keep up with the expectations he had created here.  So, I'm thinking that while Buzz realizes that he's walked into a position with unrealistic expectations, he isn't worried because he more than covered himself in the contract that he negotiated with VT.  Most likely, he does bring considerable improvement to VT, then he moves on when the buyout on his contract drops to a manageable level in five years or so.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

You listed 6 of the 15 teams.  If VT is 7th on this list (middle of the ACC) then they are expected to be a better program than ND, Pitt, Maryland, Wake, Boston College, Miami, Georgia Tech and Clemson.

You think this is realistic?

Here is my point, for Brent everything is riding on next year's recruiting class.  If we assume he finishes last this year in the ACC (safe assumption), if he does not get some players this fall/winter to commit, then they get no buzz (no pun intended) and Brent falls into invisibility in the very bottom of the ACC.  No press, no attention, no excitement.  He becomes a trivia question.

Remember VT is not IU.  VT's name alone does not get it attention like IU.  VT's attention now is Brent.  And to keep it going he has to either win (which he will not do next year) or get recruits.

Goodman and Katz are not going to waste their time with stories and attention for the 10th to 13th best ACC team with the 35th to 41st best recruiting class.

Disagree?  You think he can stink and not get good recruits for two years and still have the cache to turn it around?

Buzz is great in an underdog role.

He's been an underdog wherever he's gone.

He'll find a bunch of kids that are underdogs, he'll push them farther than they ever thought possible, and they will be better than most people expect.

In a way, VT is the perfect situation for Buzz. He can take the underdog role, work his ass off, and everybody will love him for it.

I think he'll do well.

[keefe]

Let's just not go there...doesn't end well for anybody.

But what about tradition?

[Tugg Speedman]

Buzz is great in an underdog role.

He's been an underdog wherever he's gone.

He'll find a bunch of kids that are underdogs, he'll push them farther than they ever thought possible, and they will be better than most people expect.

In a way, VT is the perfect situation for Buzz. He can take the underdog role, work his ass off, and everybody will love him for it.

I think he'll do well.

Devils advocate .... So VT is paying Brent $19 million and giving him all that control with the expectation that he finishes 6 or 7 in the ACC and get bounced in the first round on the NCAA once every few years?  That what they are paying for?

Why not hire Wojo if that is what you want?  He's far cheaper and could give you that.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Devils advocate .... So VT is paying Brent $19 million and giving him all that control with the expectation that he finishes 6 or 7 in the ACC and get bounced in the first round on the NCAA once every few years?  That what they are paying for?

Why not hire Wojo if that is what you want?  He's far cheaper and could give you that.

Right, but therein lies the problem. VT has been searching for their own "Wojo" and have never found him. They have not been able to identify and retain a successful young(er) coach that can build something at VT.

They are having to overpay for a guy to help get them off of the ground.

I'm not saying that Buzz contract is a good for VT, but I do think Buzz will do a good job there.

[Tugg Speedman]

Right, but therein lies the problem. VT has been searching for their own "Wojo" and have never found him. They have not been able to identify and retain a successful young(er) coach that can build something at VT.

They are having to overpay for a guy to help get them off of the ground.

I'm not saying that Buzz contract is a good for VT, but I do think Buzz will do a good job there.

Not to go around and around ... If good means he can afford another 13,000 foot home with an indoor basketball court, I agree!

If good means peaking at 5th in the ACC and making the tourney ONCE, I'm not sure that is defined as good.

[UticaBusBarn]

While in agreement with most comments, my take on the article is a bit different.

It casts Beauregard as being of questionable integrity, pointing out how he bailed out of New Orleans (they brought an action against him for breach of contract), and how he left Marquette.

Beauregard was on the way to building a legacy at MU and everyone, more or less, bought into his story/pitch. However, when one is the subject of a story from College Park, of all places, that questions one's credibility, it is obvious that Beauregard's proverbial "song and dance" is no longer fully credible.

Frankly, I believe he sealed his fate not at New Orleans, or how he handled Newbill, or by his leaving Milwaukee under the cover of darkness. Rather, he damaged his own reputation with his pathetic attempts, in the national media (read ESPN), to explain why he left Marquette.

He might win at VT, which after all is THE criteria for success. He will certainly make lots of money there. But, in the end, he has now created the image of down home guy ... carrying an awful lot of emotional baggage. This is going to make everything that much more difficult for him.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Not to go around and around ... If good means he can afford another 13,000 foot home with an indoor basketball court, I agree!

If good means peaking at 5th in the ACC and making the tourney ONCE, I'm not sure that is defined as good.

Hiring Buzz Williams doesn't guarantee them anything. But, clearly, whatever VT has been doing hasn't been working.

They found an opportunity to bring in a established coach with a winning record, and they had to overpay to get it done.

I think it's pretty easy to say they overpaid, but what was their other option? Hire another assistant and hope for the best? It's never worked for them before. They don't know how to find talented coaches. If they did, they wouldn't need to overpay for Buzz.

They don't have an established culture. They don't have the support. They honestly have no idea how to develop a winning program. Buzz (love him or hate him) has the ego and work ethic to provide a lot of that structure for them.

Wins will ultimately determine if Buzz was worth the contract, but the reality is that VT didn't really have any other good options. They have tried and failed a lot of different ways.

[mu03eng]

While in agreement with most comments, my take on the article is a bit different.

It casts Beauregard as being of questionable integrity, pointing out how he bailed out of New Orleans (they brought an action against him for breach of contract), and how he left Marquette.

Beauregard was on the way to building a legacy at MU and everyone, more or less, bought into his story/pitch. However, when one is the subject of a story from College Park, of all places, that questions one's credibility, it is obvious that Beauregard's proverbial "song and dance" is no longer fully credible.

Frankly, I believe he sealed his fate not at New Orleans, or how he handled Newbill, or by his leaving Milwaukee under the cover of darkness. Rather, he damaged his own reputation with his pathetic attempts, in the national media (read ESPN), to explain why he left Marquette.

He might win at VT, which after all is THE criteria for success. He will certainly make lots of money there. But, in the end, he has now created the image of down home guy ... carrying an awful lot of emotional baggage. This is going to make everything that much more difficult for him.

I'm assuming when you say College Park(Maryland) you really mean State College(Penn State) which is not to be confused with College Station(TAMU) 

If that assumption is correct, you do have to take it worth a grain of salt.  Newbill is from Philly and is a senior on PSUs roster so some of the indignation there comes from PSU bball fans "protecting" their own.  I don't think the indignation is nearly as wide spread as you might think.

You know what fanbases view Curly in a bad light?  New Orleans, Marquette, PSU, maybe Bucky, and whatever ACC team VT happens to be playing that day.  Only people who are paying close attention see the wild inconsistency of Curly's "explanations", the casual fan does not.  Certain VT doesn't because they are in love.

His reputation is only damaged with those fanbases who care.....all 0.2% of the total fanbase out there.

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

You know what fanbases view Curly in a bad light?  New Orleans, Marquette, PSU, maybe Bucky, and whatever ACC team VT happens to be playing that day.

West Va

[Tugg Speedman]

Hiring Buzz Williams doesn't guarantee them anything. But, clearly, whatever VT has been doing hasn't been working.

They found an opportunity to bring in a established coach with a winning record, and they had to overpay to get it done.

I think it's pretty easy to say they overpaid, but what was their other option? Hire another assistant and hope for the best? It's never worked for them before. They don't know how to find talented coaches. If they did, they wouldn't need to overpay for Buzz.

They don't have an established culture. They don't have the support. They honestly have no idea how to develop a winning program. Buzz (love him or hate him) has the ego and work ethic to provide a lot of that structure for them.

Wins will ultimately determine if Buzz was worth the contract, but the reality is that VT didn't really have any other good options. They have tried and failed a lot of different ways.

I understand all this and agree with it.  But it reminds me of that famous, and totally correct, line that Warren Buffett says (paraphrasing) ... when a company with a bad reputation hires a manger with a good reputation, it is the companies reputation that wins out.

If VT is as dysfunctional as you say, and you might be correct, they cannot be saved.  Even Coach K would fail.

For prof that the dysfunctional organization ruins managers with good reputations, See Seth Greenberg at VT a few years ago.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

I understand all this and agree with it.  But it reminds me of that famous, and totally correct, line that Warren Buffett says (paraphrasing) ... when a company with a bad reputation hires a manger with a good reputation, it is the companies reputation that wins out.

If VT is as dysfunctional as you say, and you might be correct, they cannot be saved.  Even Coach K would fail.

For prof that the dysfunctional organization ruins managers with good reputations, See Seth Greenberg at VT a few years ago.

You're not wrong, but what else are they supposed to do? Just cancel basketball?

VT has some potential as a program, but they haven't been able to identify or pay the right person to lead it.

I don't know if Buzz is the correct guy or not, but I don't blame them for trying it.

[tower912]

I understand all this and agree with it.  But it reminds me of that famous, and totally correct, line that Warren Buffett says (paraphrasing) ... when a company with a bad reputation hires a manger with a good reputation, it is the companies reputation that wins out.

If VT is as dysfunctional as you say, and you might be correct, they cannot be saved.  Even Coach K would fail.

For prof that the dysfunctional organization ruins managers with good reputations, See Seth Greenberg at VT a few years ago.

Steve Mariucci would agree with this.   As would any other Detroit Lion's coach ever. 

[GGGG]

You're not wrong, but what else are they supposed to do? Just cancel basketball?

VT has some potential as a program, but they haven't been able to identify or pay the right person to lead it.

I don't know if Buzz is the correct guy or not, but I don't blame them for trying it.

And look at the last two ACC winners...Miami and Virginia.  Both hired head coaches that were successful elsewhere and ending up bringing their respective schools back from obscurity.

Is it *that* inconceivable that Virginia Tech can take the same step under Buzz? 

[willie warrior]

And look at the last two ACC winners...Miami and Virginia.  Both hired head coaches that were successful elsewhere and ending up bringing their respective schools back from obscurity.

Is it *that* inconceivable that Virginia Tech can take the same step under Buzz? 

Sultan would love that to happen so he can continue to slurp the Buzzster.

[ChicosBailBonds]

At Marquette, success for Buzz was being our best coach ever not named Al McGuire. No Al in V Tech's history book. Success will be being their #1 basketball coach ever. Anything less will be failure.

He might go down as the MU coach who did the most with the least talent  one year as well as the coach that did the least with the most talent in another year.

[brandx]

And look at the last two ACC winners...Miami and Virginia.  Both hired head coaches that were successful elsewhere and ending up bringing their respective schools back from obscurity.

Is it *that* inconceivable that Virginia Tech can take the same step under Buzz? 

Viginia's obscurity was just a bit different than VT's obscurity. 24 out of 30 years they were over .500 before Bennett

And Miami was .500 or better for 14 of 17 years before hiring Larranaga.

I don't see any comparison with VT.

[Tugg Speedman]

You're not wrong, but what else are they supposed to do? Just cancel basketball?

VT has some potential as a program, but they haven't been able to identify or pay the right person to lead it.

I don't know if Buzz is the correct guy or not, but I don't blame them for trying it.

Right now VT treats basketball like the SEC football powers (Alabama, Auburn, Old Miss, LSU, etc) they are not really into it but it would be nice if they did not embarrass them and maybe offer them two or three "interesting" home games to keep everyone's attention between bowl season and spring football.  VT absymal track record says this.

VT needs to support basketball from the President down.  Boosters, students and the athletic department need to make it a priority.  I think the Brent hire was done as basketball is a priority to the new AD (from Cincy, a school that cares about Basketball) because he cares.

If they want anything from MU, how about learning from the institution support basketball has.  The program replaces its coaches with newly promoted assistants (O'Neill, Crean , Brent and now Wojo) and they are all successful (assumption being made on Wojo).  It's not because someone at MU has a clairvoyance about assistant coaches.  Rather, it is a complete university wide support to the program that is both attractive to the best assistants in the country and puts them in the best possible position to succeed.

Throwing a bunch of money at a coach at a university that only marginally cares about basketball with a mandate to win and keep the arrest down to a minimum is not a formula for success.

[Lennys Tap]

He might go down as the MU coach who did the most with the least talent  one year as well as the coach that did the least with the most talent in another year.

We went 9-9 in the big east and barely missed the NIT with zero NBA players in the starting line up last year. In 2004 and 2005 we went 8-8 and 7-9 in CUSA, made the NIT and got our butts kicked with two (2) NBA players in the starting line up. I don't think you really want to go there.

[ChicosBailBonds]

We went 9-9 in the big east and barely missed the NIT with zero NBA players in the starting line up last year. In 2004 and 2005 we went 8-8 and 7-9 in CUSA, made the NIT and got our butts kicked with two (2) NBA players in the starting line up. I don't think you really want to go there.

Oh it's easy to go there. 

This isn't your dad's Big East that we just went 9-9 in.  This was an Elite 8 team coming back to a majorly diluted conference that we should have rolled, had two preseason All Big East players on the team (both seniors) and the most heralded freshmen class at MU in many years.  The juggernaut Big East sent only 4 teams to the NCAA in which we were a resounding 2-4.

In 2004, Conference USA sent SIX teams to the NCAA tournament and went 5-6.
In 2005, Conference USA sent four teams to the tournament, and went 6-4.

Sure, we had FUTURE NBA players (one of which was a sophomore) on there that no one thought would go to the NBA until their senior years, unlike this past year's team that had players on it that people THOUGHT would make the NBA but went backwards.

I'll go there all day long based on competition, based on age and experience of the top players, based on the mediocrity of the conference, etc...all...day....long.   Last year was a major FUK UP.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Right now VT treats basketball like the SEC football powers (Alabama, Auburn, Old Miss, LSU, etc) they are not really into it but it would be nice if they did not embarrass them and maybe offer them two or three "interesting" home games to keep everyone's attention between bowl season and spring football.  VT absymal track record says this.

VT needs to support basketball from the President down.  Boosters, students and the athletic department need to make it a priority.  I think the Brent hire was done as basketball is a priority to the new AD (from Cincy, a school that cares about Basketball) because he cares.

If they want anything from MU, how about learning from the institution support basketball has.  The program replaces its coaches with newly promoted assistants (O'Neill, Crean , Brent and now Wojo) and they are all successful (assumption being made on Wojo).  It's not because someone at MU has a clairvoyance about assistant coaches.  Rather, it is a complete university wide support to the program that is both attractive to the best assistants in the country and puts them in the best possible position to succeed.

Throwing a bunch of money at a coach at a university that only marginally cares about basketball with a mandate to win and keep the arrest down to a minimum is not a formula for success.

MU & VT are running complete different business models.

Football is priority 1-12 at VT. That's the way it is. That's the way it will always be.

What should VT do?

Fire the president? Turn away the top boosters who only care about football?

Now, that doesn't mean their basketball team doesn't have potential, but using MU as a model isn't really apples to apples.

Also, if it was easy to recreate was MU was doing, DePaul, St. John's, Seton Hall, etc. would just do the same thing. Turns out what MU is doing is HARD. We all know what it takes, but it's hard to do it well.

I think it's rare that a school like VT has a shot at a coach with Buzz's established track record. They are taking a big swing. We'll see if it works out. I think it's totally reasonable to be skeptical for the reasons you provided, but also, if I'm a VT fan, I'm optimistic. They just landed an established coach and his top assistants. That's big. You gotta start somewhere.

[mu03eng]

MU & VT are running complete different business models.

Football is priority 1-12 at VT. That's the way it is. That's the way it will always be.

What should VT do?

Fire the president? Turn away the top boosters who only care about football?

Now, that doesn't mean their basketball team doesn't have potential, but using MU as a model isn't really apples to apples.

Also, if it was easy to recreate was MU was doing, DePaul, St. John's, Seton Hall, etc. would just do the same thing. Turns out what MU is doing is HARD. We all know what it takes, but it's hard to do it well.

I think it's rare that a school like VT has a shot at a coach with Buzz's established track record. They are taking a big swing. We'll see if it works out. I think it's totally reasonable to be skeptical for the reasons you provided, but also, if I'm a VT fan, I'm optimistic. They just landed an established coach and his top assistants. That's big. You gotta start somewhere.

Ammo I agree with you, but what I think will be interesting is how long that optimism lasts.  I look at it from the perspective of with that contract, what should I expect out of it and middle of the pack is not something I would accept for a contract like that.  Also, based on the structure of that contract Curly ain't getting fired, no way no how.  How quickly does optimism turn to apathy or worse resentment if they are just treading water?

What will be interesting is that I don't think Curly handles being questioned or second guessed and has a stubborn streak....that's part of the appeal of the VT job for him, theoretically he can do whatever he wants.  However, if he doesn't produce at a high level and fans start question him, what happens then, especially when he won't get fired?   It'll be interesting to watch.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Ammo I agree with you, but what I think will be interesting is how long that optimism lasts.  I look at it from the perspective of with that contract, what should I expect out of it and middle of the pack is not something I would accept for a contract like that.  Also, based on the structure of that contract Curly ain't getting fired, no way no how.  How quickly does optimism turn to apathy or worse resentment if they are just treading water?

What will be interesting is that I don't think Curly handles being questioned or second guessed and has a stubborn streak....that's part of the appeal of the VT job for him, theoretically he can do whatever he wants.  However, if he doesn't produce at a high level and fans start question him, what happens then, especially when he won't get fired?   It'll be interesting to watch.

Agreed. The contract is risky for VT. It's a big swing at a name coach. They overpaid, either out of ignorance, or because they had to.

I think it's as simple as this:
- If they win, it was "worth it", even if Buzz leaves after 4 seasons.
- If they lose, then it's going to cost VT a lot of $$ to change directions.

Obviously there are all sorts of little intricacies, but this is where everything starts and ends. Wins=good. Losing=bad.

The best thing about sports is that in 5 years, we'll have a pretty good idea if the Buzz to VT experiment was a good idea (for VT & for Buzz).  

EDIT: As far as "middle of the pack for a contract like that", I guess that's debatable for me. They are starting from square 1, so I don't know if I can reasonably expect upper half ACC finishes every year.

[Spotcheck Billy]

How does Bent's contract compare with other ACC Bball coaches? Maybe he's in the bottom half still and VT will get what they paid for if they regularly finish in the bottom half.

[rocky_warrior]

How does Bent's contract compare with other ACC Bball coaches? Maybe he's in the bottom half still and VT will get what they paid for if they regularly finish in the bottom half.

This is from last year, and Williams=Roy, but basically you've got Coach K and Pitino at the top, and then a whole big group below that in the $1-2 million range (and the 3 lowest winning % guys aren't working in the ACC anymore).