Uh oh.....this is so not good....

[groove]

I really hate to say this because I love MU basketball, but I fear Buzz is going to turn us into another mid-to-late 1990s Cincinnati.

No he would be chased out of town way before that. I would think one more incident like this and there would be pressure on MU to take some type of action.

[Thomas' Danish Delight]

No he would be chased out of town way before that. I would think one more incident like this and there would be pressure on MU to take some type of action.

I doubt we're going anywhere near that route.

Buzz likes the underdogs, the guys that go the unconventional route to DI basketball.  There are the academic and attitude cases, for sure, and that can be worked on...but who would know we'd have to deal with sexual assault?!

I'm sure that if Buzz thought Clark was at all capable of this atrocity, he would have dropped him in a heartbeat.

[MUfan12]

I really hate to say this because I love MU basketball, but I fear Buzz is going to turn us into another mid-to-late 1990s Cincinnati.

Oh for f*cks sake man... Overreact much?!

Why, because he brings in some JUCO's? Let's look at them-

Fulce- Only needed one year. Followed Buzz, solid citizen.
Butler- Only needed one year. Developed a ton, solid citizen.
DJO- Caught in the clearinghouse, only needed one year. Seems a solid guy so far.
Buycks- Had what he needed to qualify but got bad core class advice at Bay View. Already discussed as a growing team leader.

Clark was likely the last piece in balancing out the classes. Buzz took a gamble, and got burnt. This did not happen on MU's watch. There have been no disciplinary issues with any of Buzz's players while they've been here. How this puts MU even on a path to being Cincy under Huggins is beyond me. Starting to sound like the UW fans....

[Pakuni]

Oh for f*cks sake man... Overreact much?!

[ecompt]

maybe it was an overreaction, but one of the reasons Cincy was ripped everywhere was Huggins always took the JUCO route. I don't want us to follow that lead.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

maybe it was an overreaction, but one of the reasons Cincy was ripped everywhere was Huggins always took the JUCO route. I don't want us to follow that lead.

Huggins was ripped because he took thug players who didn't graduate.

The fact that they were JUCOS has nothing to do with it.

[Chili]

Huggins was ripped because he took thug players who didn't graduate.

The fact that they were JUCOS has nothing to do with it.

Clark was and is and always has been a thug. Buzz wanted him.

Kind of like Crean with James Matthews.

[TJ]

But the original article posted mentioned that he was one of three arrested and accused of raping a girl that they got drunk.  99.9% of the time, that pretty much means guilty.  Sorry but MUScoop isn't a court of law.

There's no way that only .1% of rape claims turn out to be false rape claims.  Being arrested and accused of something doesn't by itself make you guilty.  That's what bothers me.  This kids life is ruined now because he'll never live down the assumed guilt, regardless of what happened.

Here's an article that says 18% of rape claims are false.  I am not an expert, it's only 1 article, but it leads me to think that it's certainly not .1%.
http://mensnewsdaily.com/glennsacks/2009/01/06/another-study-debunks-the-two-percent-false-rape-canard/

[damuts222]

Where were the majority of you when we were recruiting him in the first place naysaying about his past. When something comes out about rape all of a sudden everyone is quick to say I told you so. Its unfortunate that this has happened but lets not finger point either saying its Buzz fault that this happened.

The jury is out about this already I see but I give the benefit of the doubt.....aka Ben Roethlisberger

[ecompt]

Sorry, but the fact that we have more JUCOs on the roster now than at any time in school history bothers me a little bit. I don't think Cincy's low graduation rates and the fact that half their roster were JUCOs was just a coincidence. I totally agree that Huggins went out of his way to recruit JUCOs who were also thugs. I am just pissed off that the Clark case is dragging MU through the mud.

[StillAWarrior]

I am just pissed off that the Clark case is dragging MU through the mud.

I don't disagree, but I think we should keep this in perspective.  I suspect that outside Milwaukee, Hill Texas and maybe Madison, about 0.000001% of college basketball fans will ever even hear about this.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Clark was and is and always has been a thug. Buzz wanted him.

Kind of like Crean with James Matthews.

I'm agree with you.

I'm just saying let's not start using "juco" and "thug" interchangeably.

Huggins was criticized for recruiting players without character who didn't graduate. "juco" has nothing to do with it.

[Chili]

I'm agree with you.

I'm just saying let's not start using "juco" and "thug" interchangeably.

Huggins was criticized for recruiting players without character who didn't graduate. "juco" has nothing to do with it.

I never did that. I have not said a bad thing about any of the other JUCO's. Just Clark. From day one. When his verbal was announced.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Sorry, but the fact that we have more JUCOs on the roster now than at any time in school history bothers me a little bit. I don't think Cincy's low graduation rates and the fact that half their roster were JUCOs was just a coincidence. I totally agree that Huggins went out of his way to recruit JUCOs who were also thugs. I am just pissed off that the Clark case is dragging MU through the mud.

You need to separate your preconceived notions about JUCO players.

They are not all thug Cincy players.

Hell, Mike Kinsella went to a year to JUCO. Does that mean he was a high risk player?

JUCO can mean higher risk, but not always.

Just like recruiting kids from inner city schools can be riskier, but not always.

[Chili]

Where were the majority of you when we were recruiting him in the first place naysaying about his past. When something comes out about rape all of a sudden everyone is quick to say I told you so. Its unfortunate that this has happened but lets not finger point either saying its Buzz fault that this happened.

The jury is out about this already I see but I give the benefit of the doubt.....aka Ben Roethlisberger

The dude admitted sexually assaulting the woman! He is a freaking thug.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

I never did that. I have not said a bad thing about any of the other JUCO's. Just Clark. From day one. When his verbal was announced.

Understood. Not speaking to you specifically, just the thread in general.

JUCO doesn't = Thug or high risk player


I'm not giving Buzz a free pass, I'm just saying let's not go overboard on the "MU should limit JUCO players" thing. A more accurate statement is "All MU players should have strong character, regardless of their background."

[Avenue Commons]

There's no way that only .1% of rape claims turn out to be false rape claims.  Being arrested and accused of something doesn't by itself make you guilty.  That's what bothers me.  This kids life is ruined now because he'll never live down the assumed guilt, regardless of what happened.

Here's an article that says 18% of rape claims are false.  I am not an expert, it's only 1 article, but it leads me to think that it's certainly not .1%.
http://mensnewsdaily.com/glennsacks/2009/01/06/another-study-debunks-the-two-percent-false-rape-canard/

The guilt on the part of Clark is not assumed by anyone. It is fact. He admitted that he digitally penetrated a girl without her consent. That's at the very least.

At the worst, he raped an unconscious girl according to the other perpetrators and witnesses in the room. This isn't a situation of "he said, she said". Clark is a criminal and there is nothing about these accusations that should trouble anyone. He is most likely going to jail, as he should.

[ChicosBailBonds]

You need to separate your preconceived notions about JUCO players.

They are not all thug Cincy players.

Hell, Mike Kinsella went to a year to JUCO. Does that mean he was a high risk player?

JUCO can mean higher risk, but not always.

Just like recruiting kids from inner city schools can be riskier, but not always.

Not sure Mike Kinsella is a good example.  The guy played at Rice his first year, the Harvard of the South. 

I don't want to put words in ecompt's mouth, but my guess is that he is referencing JUCO's that were not fully qualified out of high school (i.e. Mike Kinsella, Fulce and Butler would not be in that list)

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Not sure Mike Kinsella is a good example.  The guy played at Rice his first year, the Harvard of the South. 

I don't want to put words in ecompt's mouth, but my guess is that he is referencing JUCO's that were not fully qualified out of high school (i.e. Mike Kinsella, Fulce and Butler would not be in that list)

This is exactly my point.

I know he went to Rice, but still, "he's a JUCO", and MU should limit the amount of JUCO's in order to limit their risk, right?

Wrong.

MU needs to recruit good people who are great at basketball. No need to make it more complicated than that.

Private school, public school, prep school, JUCO, transfer, etc. etc. None of it really matters if they are good kids who are great at basketball and can handle the academics.

[StillAWarrior]

The guilt on the part of Clark is not assumed by anyone. It is fact. He admitted that he digitally penetrated a girl without her consent. That's at the very least.

At the worst, he raped an unconscious girl according to the other perpetrators and witnesses in the room. This isn't a situation of "he said, she said". Clark is a criminal and there is nothing about these accusations that should trouble anyone. He is most likely going to jail, as he should.

I agree with you, but one minor clarification -- not sure there is any allegation anywhere that the girl was unconscious.  She remembers and reported what happened, and none of the other witnesses say she was unconscious.  The only reference to "unconscious" in the arrest affidavit is where it refers the statute which refers to assaulting someone who is unconscious or physically unable to resist.

Incidentally, the charged offense - Sexual Assault (Texas Penal Code Section 22.011) is a second degree felony.  If convicted, the penalty is at least two years and no more than 20 years (Texas Penal Code Section 12.33).

[Goatherder]

Not sure Mike Kinsella is a good example.  The guy played at Rice his first year, the Harvard of the South. 

I don't want to put words in ecompt's mouth, but my guess is that he is referencing JUCO's that were not fully qualified out of high school (i.e. Mike Kinsella, Fulce and Butler would not be in that list)

OK, if Kinsella is not a good example, why are Butler and Fulce and DJO good examples?  Each of these players could have played D-1 ball out of high school.  (Fulce had to go to prep school for a year, but I do not see anyone complaining about too many prep school players.)

Throwing out some arbitrary rule like limiting the number of jucos is stupid.  To what number?  Which jucos?  Ones who did not qualify out of high school, or transfers like Kinsella, or what, exactly? 

This recruit was a mistake.  That's all.  Buzz is not going to get called onto Wild's carpet and told never to do that again, and he shouldn't.  He is in charge of the program, and the higher-ups are mostly going to leave him alone unless there is a good reason not to, and one recruit who gets arrested is not a good reason not to. 

[ecompt]

I would think Fr. Wild WILL have a talk with Buzz about this. True, he is in charge of the program, but that program still has to answer to the university president. When something like this happens, it's the university that looks bad.

[mu03eng]

I would think Fr. Wild WILL have a talk with Buzz about this. True, he is in charge of the program, but that program still has to answer to the university president. When something like this happens, it's the university that looks bad.

OK, if he had stolen a car or committed some other mid level felony, I would agree there were red flags with him based on the stories I am hearing(admittedly just now that all this has gone down)......however I haven't a single story that would make me believe Buzz could have predicted he was capable of rape.  And really that's what we are all reacting to, that he made the jump from juvenile issues to being a rapist.  Really he went from a 3 to a 9 on the criminal scale....who could predict that?

Plus it didn't happen at MU, perhaps with a better support system Clarke could have improved as a person and this doesn't happen.

[Goatherder]

I would think Fr. Wild WILL have a talk with Buzz about this. True, he is in charge of the program, but that program still has to answer to the university president. When something like this happens, it's the university that looks bad.

Sure, but there are talks and there are talks.  Someone suggested earlier here that he be called into Wild's office and told never to do that again.  That is not going to happen.  I can see Wild asking Buzz about it the next time they have lunch, and suggesting that we would not want to see anything happen that might damage the university.  And there may be some discussion about what kind of kids you give a second chance to.  But no "Come to Jesus" meeting.  If this kid had as many red flags as some suggest, it was likely discussed with Cottingham at least, and he would have known Buzz was taking a chance on a risky kid. Of course, no one would have anticipated what happened.  

[Pakuni]

I would think Fr. Wild WILL have a talk with Buzz about this. True, he is in charge of the program, but that program still has to answer to the university president. When something like this happens, it's the university that looks bad.

What's Fr. Wild going to say?
"Shame on you, Buzz, for not using your crystal ball to see that this young man would commit a terrible sex crime five months after you accepted his verbal commitment."

Unless Clark had serious criminal issues in his past of which the coaching staff was aware, I don't see how anyone can pin this on Buzz. How the heck is he supposed to know this was possible?
This, I suspect, is where someone inserts something about JUCO players being "risky."
The problem with that, though, is I'm not aware of any objective data supporting that kind of inference. This just as easily could have happened with a player recruited out of high school. As it did at Wisconsin. And Iowa. And Boston College. And Colorado. And ...