Uh oh.....this is so not good....

[RJax55]

When Clark's name first came up as a recruit were any of these red flags ever mentioned on the board. I'm not a regular here, so I'm not sure, but reading now, it seems like his background was common knowledge. Was it that old thing of everyone being too PC to come out and say a Thug is a Thug. I mean it seems obvious now. Especially after seeing his videos on facebook and stuff. A Thug is a Thug, how Buzz missed this one I don't know.

There were a couple of posters that came out and said that Clark was bad news and they didn't like his commitment. Chili in particular, voice his displeasure with the Clark verbal from the outsight. In the end, they were 100% right.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Just my 2 cents... I have no issue with having JUCOs in our program, as long as it contributes to winning.  This is def an unfortunate incident, however it's more a reflection on the player than on the university.  MU will cut its ties and move on, with most people forgetting and more likely being completely unaware of the situation.  When a team makes it to the Final Four, you never hear Clark Kellogg say, "Yeah, they're good but they've really been recruiting some thugs lately."  However you do see an increase in enrollment, donations, and all the good things that go along with success.

Clark Kellogg isn't going to say it, but people can believe their eyes and ears fairly easily.  When Miami was winning football championships, was Brent Musburger saying they were a thug program during the broadcast?  No, but everyone knew they were based on the litany of stories that came out.

By no means am I saying we are a thug program as I'm sure some people will immediately accuse me of saying.

But programs can get into patterns and reputations if things become repetitive.  I trust Buzz will be more diligent in the future after being burned.  There are qualified chances coaches should take and then there are others that the risks greatly outweigh the potential benefits.  This seems to be the case of the latter.

[ChicosBailBonds]

MUSF,
I see no straw man in my arguement.  I honestly took your arguement as "limit the # of JUCOs, because they have raised red flags, and may cause problems". This is correct right?

Now, I have no issue with giving Buzz and his team some crap for not vetting someone, but I think you are you are  painting all JUCOs as having a greater chance of effing up (even though you stated you didn't in another thread).  

Just by saying, limit the # of JUCOs...you are, IMHO being harsh.

We all agree we want upstanding young men representing MU in a positive way, but bad apples appear in every demographic.  

I just have an issue with grouping people based on piece of there background and making a sweeping generalization because of it.

Across the college ranks you see an ungodly amount of athletes that are full qualifiers get in a lot of trouble, but when you see kid that has to go to community college too many people automatically jump to the conclusion "well, he went JUCO, ya know, big surprise". And I personally think that is grossly unfair.

In full disclosure, I work with kids that go to community college because they for a variety of reasons couldn't get into a 4 year school.  I believe in holding people personally responsible for their actions (as I am sure you are too), but I guess we just disagree in how Marquette makes sure we don't recruit jags like Clark.  I apologize for my earlier accusatory remarks, I know we all agree that we  want young men to represent our great university in a positive manner on and off the court.

Go Marquette!

Your background is important and appreciate you disclosing it.  We all bring bias to our life perspective based on the life we live.  Your perspective is important.

Equally, my bias on JUCOs comes from UNLV, Oklahoma under Tubbs, USC, etc.  They were JUCO central growing up and issues followed them off the court all the time.  Amazing athletes, they won a lot but many issues.    Plus here in California we have a crapload of JUCOs with high profile athletic programs.  Unfortunately a considerable amount of bad press has followed many of these local programs.   My bias is unfair, but I readily admit it.  

I think we can be smarter, but appreciate your perspective.

[Avenue Commons]

Should this be in teal?  He was charged.

I doubt he ever wears a MU uniform unless somehow the charges against him are dropped.  That means we now have three available next year.

If these were blind accusations, I'd say "innocent until proven guilty." But after reading the arrest warrant Clark either forcibly raped an unconscious girl or (by his own admission) physically and sexually assaulted an unconscious girl. Either way, not a guy I want representing MU in any way, shape or form.

By the way, the report lists him as 20 years old, this isn't a 15 year old who made a drunken "mistake." This is an adult commiting a criminal act of great sexual depravity.

Throw the book at him.

[Avenue Commons]

Your background is important and appreciate you disclosing it.  We all bring bias to our life perspective based on the life we live.  Your perspective is important.

Equally, my bias on JUCOs comes from UNLV, Oklahoma under Tubbs, USC, etc.  They were JUCO central growing up and issues followed them off the court all the time.  Amazing athletes, they won a lot but many issues.    Plus here in California we have a crapload of JUCOs with high profile athletic programs.  Unfortunately a considerable amount of bad press has followed many of these local programs.   My bias is unfair, but I readily admit it.  

I think we can be smarter, but appreciate your perspective.

I share Chicos' "bias" regarding the recruiting of JUCOs for the reasons he stated. There a are tons of great kids and great student athletes that go to JUCO for a wide variety of reasons. However, I'd like to think that MU is capable of recruiting the majority of our team from players who got good grades in High School, stayed clear of legal problems, and led decent lives. I don't think that is too much to ask.

I also strongly believe that players making a 4 year investment in a program yields greater results than JUCOs who only play a year or two at most.

[StillAWarrior]

If these were blind accusations, I'd say "innocent until proven guilty." But after reading the arrest warrant Clark either forcibly raped an unconscious girl or (by his own admission) physically and sexually assaulted an unconscious girl.

Yeah, that arrest warrant is very ugly.  Several things are clear:  1) Clark lied in his first interview with the cop; 2) the victim believed that Clark had intercourse with her; 3) two of Clark's teammates said Clark had intercourse with the victim; 4) one of Clark's teammates recognized this situation for what it was quickly enough that he threw out the victim's underpants to avoid being implicated; 5) at the very least Clark admitted to digital penetration; and 6) the victim reported all of this within the hour.

This is not the Duke case.  Not even close.  None of the Duke LAX players ever admitted to any rape or accused any of his teammates of rape.  Here you've got two of the players throwing Clark under the bus and even have Clark himself making a pretty damning admission (that is probably an admission of rape, but I don't know Texas's law).  Aside from some guys trying to save their own skin, there is absolutely nothing exculpatory in that affidavit to suggest that this was not rape.  It's perfectly clear from the affidavit that the girl was conscious and knows she was raped (once via intercourse and once digitally), and all the men that were present are basically confirming her story.  There is absolutely no reference in the affidavit by any of the men that this was consensual sex.

I suspect this is going to end badly for Clark...as it should.

[Avenue Commons]

Link to Arrest Affidavits:

http://www.kwtx.com/home/headlines/59372882.html

By the way, I forgot to mention that my thoughts and prayers, and I'm sure the thoughts and prayers of the entire Marquette family, go out to the victim of this crime. This is a beyond horrific scenario for anyone, let alone a young college student.

[Avenue Commons]

Agreed. The first thing up on GoMarquette.com tomorrow morning better be a press release from Buzz Williams stating that his scholarship has been revoked.

No press conference, nothing more than simple press release that all offers of a scholarship have been revoked, he never formally committed to MU, and that MU wishes the victim the best and offers her its support.

MU is only tangentially involved, and we don't need this piece of garbage harming MU's reputation. He's done enough damage already. What an absolute loser. I hope he rots in jail and spends eternity in hell.

[StillAWarrior]

Link to Arrest Affidavits:

http://www.kwtx.com/home/headlines/59372882.html

By the way, I forgot to mention that my thoughts and prayers, and I'm sure the thoughts and prayers of the entire Marquette family, go out to the victim of this crime. This is a beyond horrific scenario for anyone, let alone a young college student.

At that same link there is video of an interview with the coach and some other school official.  Obviously, the school isn't presuming innocence:  "We have 250-300 athletes.  Three of them did something very, very bad."

[Kramerica]

No press conference, nothing more than simple press release that all offers of a scholarship have been revoked, he never formally committed to MU, and that MU wishes the victim the best and offers her its support.

MU is only tangentially involved, and we don't need this piece of garbage harming MU's reputation. He's done enough damage already. What an absolute loser. I hope he rots in jail and spends eternity in hell.

Since he is only verbally committed to the school, I believe NCAA regulations prohibit Marquette from commenting on the situation.  Rosiak said something to the effect in his blog this morning

[rocky_warrior]

Now, I'll throw my $.02 for the least favorite opinion...

<rant>

The way many of you are responding to this is repulsive.  Who the hell gave so many of you the right to cast judgment?  Everybody seems to feel compelled to blame someone, and point fingers.

In no way do I think Clark should end up at Marquette after this, but I would expect 2 things to happen, all of which involves a couple little words namely: compassion and mercy.

1) Marquette should reach out to the girl and her family to help them with anything they need to help the healing process.  No, Marquette is not responsible for this in any way, but it would the be compassionate, and I think *right* thing to do.

2) Buzz (and perhaps Marquette) should stay in contact with Clark over the next couple years.  Not to recruit, or woo him, but rather because it's clear he needs some positive figures in his life, and there will be plenty of people out there (like many of you) who immediately assume he can never be a better person than he is currently.   A little mercy may help turn this kid around, but shunning him will surely lead to more bad deeds.  Casting blame is easy, but try to imagine if he was one of your relatives, and not just a kid you feel you can easily throw away.

I'm sure some will still say he doesn't deserve any mercy, and I'm not going to continue re-iterating my point of view.  If you don't agree, and can't see how there should be any mercy in this case, then so be it.  We disagree.

</end rant>

[Avenue Commons]

Now, I'll throw my $.02 for the least favorite opinion...

I appreciate your point Rocky, but forcible rape falls into my category of "point of no return." We can show compassion and still condemn his acts. This is a henious crime.

[Thomas' Danish Delight]

Now, I'll throw my $.02 for the least favorite opinion...

<rant>

The way many of you are responding to this is repulsive.  Who the hell gave so many of you the right to cast judgment?  Everybody seems to feel compelled to blame someone, and point fingers.

In no way do I think Clark should end up at Marquette after this, but I would expect 2 things to happen, all of which involves a couple little words namely: compassion and mercy.

1) Marquette should reach out to the girl and her family to help them with anything they need to help the healing process.  No, Marquette is not responsible for this in any way, but it would the be compassionate, and I think *right* thing to do.

2) Buzz (and perhaps Marquette) should stay in contact with Clark over the next couple years.  Not to recruit, or woo him, but rather because it's clear he needs some positive figures in his life, and there will be plenty of people out there (like many of you) who immediately assume he can never be a better person than he is currently.   A little mercy may help turn this kid around, but shunning him will surely lead to more bad deeds.  Casting blame is easy, but try to imagine if he was one of your relatives, and not just a kid you feel you can easily throw away.

I'm sure some will still say he doesn't deserve any mercy, and I'm not going to continue re-iterating my point of view.  If you don't agree, and can't see how there should be any mercy in this case, then so be it.  We disagree.

</end rant>

I also see and respect your 2 cents, and I think it would be an excellent idea for Buzz or someone to keep in contact with clark because he obviously needs a positive figure in his life.

I try and be a good person and I try to forgive, and obviously that is in the poor girl's hands, but I still think rapists should be castrated.  If a man tries to take away someone's womanhood, then how would he like it if someone took away his manhood?

I know I know...we shouldn't be thinking in terms of an eye for an eye, but I've had friends go through a similar horror and I needed a lot of prayer and self-restraint to keep myself from seeking vengeance.

On the other hand...I followed the link posted by Avenue Commons, and it sickens me to see what some people are leaving in the comments section.  It was HER fault?!?!

Disgusting. 

A guy straight out of Africa that knows nothing about American culture goes down into the deep south and runs into white supremacists and they lynch him...is that his fault?!  It may not be the best use of judgment, and how was he supposed to know?!  It's the individuals that commit the crime that are at fault.

Whoever thinks she deserved it or had it coming needs some serious help.

[Blackhat]

MU should give scum Clark's scholarship to the girl he victimized. 

[Nukem2]

Now, I'll throw my $.02 for the least favorite opinion...

<rant>

The way many of you are responding to this is repulsive.  Who the hell gave so many of you the right to cast judgment?  Everybody seems to feel compelled to blame someone, and point fingers.

In no way do I think Clark should end up at Marquette after this, but I would expect 2 things to happen, all of which involves a couple little words namely: compassion and mercy.

1) Marquette should reach out to the girl and her family to help them with anything they need to help the healing process.  No, Marquette is not responsible for this in any way, but it would the be compassionate, and I think *right* thing to do.

2) Buzz (and perhaps Marquette) should stay in contact with Clark over the next couple years.  Not to recruit, or woo him, but rather because it's clear he needs some positive figures in his life, and there will be plenty of people out there (like many of you) who immediately assume he can never be a better person than he is currently.   A little mercy may help turn this kid around, but shunning him will surely lead to more bad deeds.  Casting blame is easy, but try to imagine if he was one of your relatives, and not just a kid you feel you can easily throw away.

I'm sure some will still say he doesn't deserve any mercy, and I'm not going to continue re-iterating my point of view.  If you don't agree, and can't see how there should be any mercy in this case, then so be it.  We disagree.

</end rant>Appreciate your thoughts here.  As for #1, that sounds noble; but, I'm not sure how that would be accomplished without casting MU into a position of being  party to the crime.

[nyg]

Now, I'll throw my $.02 for the least favorite opinion...

<rant>

The way many of you are responding to this is repulsive.  Who the hell gave so many of you the right to cast judgment?  Everybody seems to feel compelled to blame someone, and point fingers.

In no way do I think Clark should end up at Marquette after this, but I would expect 2 things to happen, all of which involves a couple little words namely: compassion and mercy.

1) Marquette should reach out to the girl and her family to help them with anything they need to help the healing process.  No, Marquette is not responsible for this in any way, but it would the be compassionate, and I think *right* thing to do.

2) Buzz (and perhaps Marquette) should stay in contact with Clark over the next couple years.  Not to recruit, or woo him, but rather because it's clear he needs some positive figures in his life, and there will be plenty of people out there (like many of you) who immediately assume he can never be a better person than he is currently.   A little mercy may help turn this kid around, but shunning him will surely lead to more bad deeds.  Casting blame is easy, but try to imagine if he was one of your relatives, and not just a kid you feel you can easily throw away.

I'm sure some will still say he doesn't deserve any mercy, and I'm not going to continue re-iterating my point of view.  If you don't agree, and can't see how there should be any mercy in this case, then so be it.  We disagree.

</end rant>

Rocky...  
Nice post but,
1) There is no way MU will reach out to the victim and get involved with this matter.  Compassion is one thing, but in view of the fact Clark was not an MU student-athlete, not going to happen.

2) If Buzz or his staff or whoever wants to stay in touch with Clark over the next few years, they may want to look at where the state prisons are located in west Texas. This is not a simple burglary case, if convicted Clark could spend the majority of his adult life in prison.

[GGGG]

Now, I'll throw my $.02 for the least favorite opinion...

<rant>

The way many of you are responding to this is repulsive.  Who the hell gave so many of you the right to cast judgment?  Everybody seems to feel compelled to blame someone, and point fingers.

In no way do I think Clark should end up at Marquette after this, but I would expect 2 things to happen, all of which involves a couple little words namely: compassion and mercy.

1) Marquette should reach out to the girl and her family to help them with anything they need to help the healing process.  No, Marquette is not responsible for this in any way, but it would the be compassionate, and I think *right* thing to do.

2) Buzz (and perhaps Marquette) should stay in contact with Clark over the next couple years.  Not to recruit, or woo him, but rather because it's clear he needs some positive figures in his life, and there will be plenty of people out there (like many of you) who immediately assume he can never be a better person than he is currently.   A little mercy may help turn this kid around, but shunning him will surely lead to more bad deeds.  Casting blame is easy, but try to imagine if he was one of your relatives, and not just a kid you feel you can easily throw away.

I'm sure some will still say he doesn't deserve any mercy, and I'm not going to continue re-iterating my point of view.  If you don't agree, and can't see how there should be any mercy in this case, then so be it.  We disagree.

</end rant>

A couple of things.  I hope MU reaches out to the victim, but in a way that is behind the scenes and quietly.

As for reaching out to Clark, if Buzz wants to do that, go ahead...on his own time.  MU should not be involved in any way.  I cannot imagine what kind of PR disaster that would cause.

[Pakuni]

Rocky...  
Nice post but,
1) There is no way MU will reach out to the victim and get involved with this matter.  Compassion is one thing, but in view of the fact Clark was not an MU student-athlete, not going to happen.

Agreed. While it may seem like a compassionate gesture on MU's behalf and I doubt the university would do this insincerely, too many people - justifiably cynical, I suppose - would see this as Steve Alford, pat II. MU needs to leave this one alone.

2) If Buzz or his staff or whoever wants to stay in touch with Clark over the next few years, they may want to look at where the state prisons are located in west Texas. This is not a simple burglary case, if convicted Clark could spend the majority of his adult life in prison.

Unfortunately, probably not. For a guy who appears to be a first-time offender - at least in the adult system - it would not be surprising if he got a minimal sentence, certainly not anything approaching a life sentence. Pierre Pierce did less than a year, and he was a multiple offender. Mike Tyson spent three years in prison. I know it's Texas and all, but don't expect a long sentence ... if he's convicted.

[SCdem@MU]

Since he is only verbally committed to the school, I believe NCAA regulations prohibit Marquette from commenting on the situation.  Rosiak said something to the effect in his blog this morning

There should be an exception to this rule if a recruit is accused of committing a crime, becomes severely ill (develops cancer, or some other severe/life threatening disease), or dies.

Its ridiculous that Marquette's name is all over these stories yet they can't comment.

A committed, but not yet signed recruit could go on a killing rampage wearing a Marquette Jersey and Marquette still wouldn't be able to respond.

[Pakuni]

There should be an exception to this rule if a recruit is accused of committing a crime, becomes severely ill (develops cancer, or some other severe/life threatening disease), or dies.

Its ridiculous that Marquette's name is all over these stories yet they can't comment.

A committed, but not yet signed recruit could go on a killing rampage wearing a Marquette Jersey and Marquette still wouldn't be able to respond.

I'd venture to guess that whatever minor punishment the NCAA would hand down for what would have to be an obvious secondary infraction (see: Kiffin, Lane) would easily be overcome by the positive response such a gesture would receive publicly.

[ChicosBailBonds]

I appreciate your point Rocky, but forcible rape falls into my category of "point of no return." We can show compassion and still condemn his acts. This is a henious crime.

Rocky....do you have any daughters?    +1000000000  for Avenue Commons. As a father of a daughter, as a graduate of MU, and as a person who simply believes in common sense ....I feel no remorse in passing judgment on this guy if he is expected to represent the school.   If it wasn't an open and shut case, I wouldn't and you would have a point.  But in this case, Officer Hammer and the authorities seem to have this one nailed.  If I'm wrong, I'll send an apology to the Clark family.

[SCdem@MU]

I'd venture to guess that whatever minor punishment the NCAA would hand down for what would have to be an obvious secondary infraction (see: Kiffin, Lane) would easily be overcome by the positive response such a gesture would receive publicly.

Agreed. I say F the NCAA and issue a statement.

[nyg]

Agreed. While it may seem like a compassionate gesture on MU's behalf and I doubt the university would do this insincerely, too many people - justifiably cynical, I suppose - would see this as Steve Alford, pat II. MU needs to leave this one alone.

Unfortunately, probably not. For a guy who appears to be a first-time offender - at least in the adult system - it would not be surprising if he got a minimal sentence, certainly not anything approaching a life sentence. Pierre Pierce did less than a year, and he was a multiple offender. Mike Tyson spent three years in prison. I know it's Texas and all, but don't expect a long sentence ... if he's convicted.

OK, I see your comparison with Pierce, and even the hotel room case of Tyson, but this case is basically a "gang rape" in which a victim was violated by multiple subjects.  Not even close to a "date rape" situation. Juries and Judges do not like men taking turns with a defenseless woman. If the evidence proves she was forced to drink the substance in order to render her useless, then the premeditation aspect will also be reviewed by the states attorney's office.  Either way, the guy in a heap of crap with the law.   

[ecompt]

I really hate to say this because I love MU basketball, but I fear Buzz is going to turn us into another mid-to-late 1990s Cincinnati.

[Boone]

Another Cincy?! Good gravy. Stop the insanity.