Phil Martelli?

[MU82]

I'm not posting on my standards for either.

I'm posting based on the standards people on this board are applying. You may not remember it, but Buzz was often berated on here for not being able to make adjustments in the 2nd half, and others calling for him to be removed when we were in constant bubble talk, then the same people claiming he was the next Al when he wins a big game. Wojo's first 2 years here were better than Buzz's first 2-years at TAMU, and people were already calling him a mistake and that he should be removed.

I'm not going to relitigate the cupboard Buzz left or would have had going into Wojo's first year. It is futile.

Now, if you want my personal opinions.

Overall, Buzz was an above average coach. He benefited by finding some amazing under the radar talent, that turned into all big-east and NBA levels, at the JC level, but really struggled finding and developing 4-year talent. When he was at MU, especially in the beginning, he excelled at game planning/prep before the game/season, but still was learning and needed to learn in game adjustments. If he had stayed, and couldn't access the JC-level like he likes, he would have likely had MU at constant mediocrity, possibly underperforming what Wojo did, depending on how he adapted to not accessing JC players.

Now, Wojo. He's still learning how to run a program long-term. I think he gets a bit of a bad rap on here. People focus on the end of season collapses, and neglect the fact that prior to them, he had the teams performing above their talent level. He struggles with in season adjustments, and adapting the program plan to the teams strengths. I'm not certain he is the best option long term, but think it would be a mistake to move on now.

If Carton, Lewis, and Garcia all return, we might have a really strong team next here. Especially if we can pick up a impact transfer. Give him 1 more year, in my opinion, and then re-evaluate.

I believe you are under-rating Buzz's potential at keeping Marquette relevant had he stayed, even in a non-juco world (and lots of Scoopers say he still would have been able to recruit most jucos). 

Otherwise, you make some good points IMHO and I respect your opinion on Wojo. I would have fired him after the DePaul loss, but if he returns (as he figures to), I will support him and the program, and obviously the players. I like to think he will be on a pretty short leash in 2021-22, so we'll see how the re-evaluation goes from those whose opinions actually matter.

[brewcity77]

1st season NCAA 6 seed.
2nd season NCAA 6 seed.
3rd season NCAA 11 seed.
4th season NCAA 3 seed.
5th season NCAA 3 seed.

I don't see a lot of bubble teams here.

So what...the guy that wrote Bubble Watch for Sports Illustrated gave us that moniker just for fun? We were on the bubble all of Buzz's second season. Remember we were 11-8 (2-5) to start the season before we rattled off 9 of 10 to lock us into the field. That was an incredibly bubbly year, and the 6-seed was a bit of a surprise (we looked more like an 8/9 than a 6).

The next year, we were clearly on the bubble and I think that's when Glockner started calling us Team Bubble Watch. There was speculation that the WVU win in the BET was the only reason we got in.

The next two years weren't as bubbly, but there were plenty of Marquette fans on this site that were convinced we wouldn't be in the 2013 Tournament after falling to 7-3 with a loss to Green Bay.

And obviously, Buzz's last season was a year on the bubble. If we don't lose his last two regular season games, both in double-overtime, we would've been the 3-seed in the Big East Tournament and probably needed just one win to get in. Instead, we took the losses and fell not only off the bubble but out of the NIT as well.

3 of his 6 years we lived on the bubble. You can call it a lot, a little, or average, but it's absolutely the fact of the matter.

[MuggsyB]

So what...the guy that wrote Bubble Watch for Sports Illustrated gave us that moniker just for fun? We were on the bubble all of Buzz's second season. Remember we were 11-8 (2-5) to start the season before we rattled off 9 of 10 to lock us into the field. That was an incredibly bubbly year, and the 6-seed was a bit of a surprise (we looked more like an 8/9 than a 6).

The next year, we were clearly on the bubble and I think that's when Glockner started calling us Team Bubble Watch. There was speculation that the WVU win in the BET was the only reason we got in.

The next two years weren't as bubbly, but there were plenty of Marquette fans on this site that were convinced we wouldn't be in the 2013 Tournament after falling to 7-3 with a loss to Green Bay.

And obviously, Buzz's last season was a year on the bubble. If we don't lose his last two regular season games, both in double-overtime, we would've been the 3-seed in the Big East Tournament and probably needed just one win to get in. Instead, we took the losses and fell not only off the bubble but out of the NIT as well.

3 of his 6 years we lived on the bubble. You can call it a lot, a little, or average, but it's absolutely the fact of the matter.

We were a 3 seed for two seasons, a top 6 seed for 4 seasons, and when we were a bubble 11 seed we made the S16.  Our record during the course of those seasons is irrelevant.  You don't "live on the bubble" as a 6 seed. 

There is honestly no comparison between the Buzz and Wojo teams as far as on court success.  And for a myriad reasons, not just the obvious facts. If you want to discuss other aspects of the issues we had while Buzz was in charge that's fair.  But on the floor his coaching and the level of play was vastly superior than anything we have seen in 7 yrs with Wojo.

[Viper]

We pay in the lowest third of high major job. We do have a significant amount of resources. It's a good job, don't oversell it.

Honestly, I can only think of one good high major coach that we could conceivably poach, Steve Pikiell from Rutgers. He may be my top choice if/when Wojo leaves.

We may get lucky and land a top coach that's currently out of coaching like a Beilein or a Matta. But Beilein may come with baggage in the form of his kid wanting to be an AC and Matta may be waiting for the Butler job so he can coach at his kid's school. At the moment, those are the only two out there that I can think of.

If we need to hire a new coach, they will likely either be a mid-major head coach, high major assistant coach, or a recently fired high major coach. Which is fine. That's true for 95% of programs. It's also true that at least one of those guys will do a better job than what Wojo is currently doing. Trick is identifying the right one. The transition from being an AC to HC, or mid-major to high-major, or from being an unsuccessful high major coach to a successful one, is not easy.

who/what are your sources re: what MU pays?

[MUfan12]

We pay in the lowest third of high major job. We do have a significant amount of resources. It's a good job, don't oversell it.

Ehhhhh I don't know about that.

[Viper]

It isn't a destination job.  The last two coaches have made it clear that it is a stepping stone.  Wojo was a 'top assistant' coach for 15 years before getting his first major head coaching job.  We rolled the dice, and I think we can see why it took him 15 years to leave Durham.  We have exactly zero shot at Matta or Beilein.  Oats was a possibility until Bama decided to pay him what he deserved.

We are what we are.  A second tier BEAST team with excellent resources dedicated to basketball.  Those dreaming of us returning to the days of Al need to wake up and realize the game has changed a lot in the last 45 years.

to some coaches, MU is a destination job. To other coaches, it’s not. What is a piece of art worth? What someone will pay for it, or not pay for it. Is Gonzaga a destination job? WCC. Spokane. To Mark Few it apparently is basketball paradise. To others, nope. Wojo might have zero plans on ever leaving MU. If so, to Wojo MU is a destination job. MU can pay and does have resources. It should take a backseat to only a few programs, and not take a backseat to any program in the BE.

[dad's couch]

In FY 2019, Wojo made $2.02 million. Here's what USA Today had last year.  Without 5 P6 coaches salaries listed in addition to Wojo.

https://sports.usatoday.com/ncaa/salaries/mens-basketball/coach/

[Billy Hoyle]

In FY 2019, Wojo made $2.02 million. Here's what USA Today had last year.  Without 5 P6 coaches salaries listed in addition to Wojo.

https://sports.usatoday.com/ncaa/salaries/mens-basketball/coach/

damn, Collins and Hopkins have incredible agents!

[forgetful]

I believe you are under-rating Buzz's potential at keeping Marquette relevant had he stayed, even in a non-juco world (and lots of Scoopers say he still would have been able to recruit most jucos). 

To clarify, I really wasn't saying Marquette wouldn't have been relevant. When I said mediocrity, I'm using "Scoop" definitions, where apparently unless you are top 25 every year, and winning NCAA tournament games, you are just mediocre. I'm pretty sure we are close on our thoughts on how Buzz would have faired and on Wojo, my language and penchant for mimicking/mocking "Scoop" hysteria belie my actual point.

[shoothoops]

So what...the guy that wrote Bubble Watch for Sports Illustrated gave us that moniker just for fun? We were on the bubble all of Buzz's second season. Remember we were 11-8 (2-5) to start the season before we rattled off 9 of 10 to lock us into the field. That was an incredibly bubbly year, and the 6-seed was a bit of a surprise (we looked more like an 8/9 than a 6).

The next year, we were clearly on the bubble and I think that's when Glockner started calling us Team Bubble Watch. There was speculation that the WVU win in the BET was the only reason we got in.

The next two years weren't as bubbly, but there were plenty of Marquette fans on this site that were convinced we wouldn't be in the 2013 Tournament after falling to 7-3 with a loss to Green Bay.

And obviously, Buzz's last season was a year on the bubble. If we don't lose his last two regular season games, both in double-overtime, we would've been the 3-seed in the Big East Tournament and probably needed just one win to get in. Instead, we took the losses and fell not only off the bubble but out of the NIT as well.

3 of his 6 years we lived on the bubble. You can call it a lot, a little, or average, but it's absolutely the fact of the matter.

I’d say two of six not that it matters.

What matters are results. You are what your record says you are, regular season, post season, etc...

Buzz, two Sweet 16’s, an Elite 8, a Regular Season Big East Title, four top 5 league finishes, etc...those things matter.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

who/what are your sources re: what MU pays?

Ehhhhh I don't know about that.

https://watchstadium.com/college-basketball-coaching-salary-and-buyout-database-for-2019-20-season-10-24-2019/

I was going by this list. I originally thought it had info for all public universities but I guess public record laws vary from state to state.

On this list, Wojo comes in 40th. In actuality, he's much lower because the following P6 schools are missing:

Clemson
Syracuse
Notre Dame
Pittsburgh
Wake Forest
Miami (FL)
Boston College
Baylor
Oklahoma State
TCU
Iowa
Purdue
Penn State
Northwestern
Villanova
Creighton
Seton Hall
Xavier
St. John's
Providence
Georgetown
Butler
DePaul
USC
Stanford
Florida
Mississippi State
Texas A&M
Vanderbilt

You also have to factor in that 2 non-P6 coaches are ranked above Wojo (Gregg Marshall and Kelvin Sampson), so on this list Wojo is 38th for P6 coaches.

There are 29 P6 schools missing from this list. There are 76 P6 schools total. To be in the bottom third of P6 coaching salaries, you have to be ranked 51st or lower.

So if Wojo is at 38 and there are 29 schools missing, only 13/29 of the missing schools need to have higher salaries than Wojo. I feel very comfortable guessing that at least 13 of:

Brad Brownell
Jim Boeheim
Mike Brey
Jeff Capel
Jim Larranaga
Scott Drew
Jamie Dixon
Fran McCaffery
Matt Painter
Jay Wright
Kevin Willard
Ed Cooley
Patrick Ewing
Andy Enfield
Mike White
Ben Howland
Buzz Williams

make more than Wojo does.

[MuggsyB]

damn, Collins and Hopkins have incredible agents!

Ha!  Was thinking the exact same thing.

[Hards Alumni]

to some coaches, MU is a destination job. To other coaches, it’s not. What is a piece of art worth? What someone will pay for it, or not pay for it. Is Gonzaga a destination job? WCC. Spokane. To Mark Few it apparently is basketball paradise. To others, nope. Wojo might have zero plans on ever leaving MU. If so, to Wojo MU is a destination job. MU can pay and does have resources. It should take a backseat to only a few programs, and not take a backseat to any program in the BE.

I guess 4:20 came 21 minutes early for you.  Which coach of the last five thought that Marquette was a place they wanted to be forever?  Go on, I'll wait.

[cheebs09]

https://watchstadium.com/college-basketball-coaching-salary-and-buyout-database-for-2019-20-season-10-24-2019/

I was going by this list. I originally thought it had info for all public universities but I guess public record laws vary from state to state.

On this list, Wojo comes in 40th. In actuality, he's much lower because the following P6 schools are missing:

Clemson
Syracuse
Notre Dame
Pittsburgh
Wake Forest
Miami (FL)
Boston College
Baylor
Oklahoma State
TCU
Iowa
Purdue
Penn State
Northwestern
Villanova
Creighton
Seton Hall
Xavier
St. John's
Providence
Georgetown
Butler
DePaul
USC
Stanford
Florida
Mississippi State
Texas A&M
Vanderbilt

You also have to factor in that 2 non-P6 coaches are ranked above Wojo (Gregg Marshall and Kelvin Sampson), so on this list Wojo is 38th for P6 coaches.

There are 29 P6 schools missing from this list. There are 76 P6 schools total. To be in the bottom third of P6 coaching salaries, you have to be ranked 51st or lower.

So if Wojo is at 38 and there are 29 schools missing, only 13/29 of the missing schools need to have higher salaries than Wojo. I feel very comfortable guessing that at least 13 of:

Brad Brownell
Jim Boeheim
Mike Brey
Jeff Capel
Jim Larranaga
Scott Drew
Jamie Dixon
Fran McCaffery
Matt Painter
Jay Wright
Kevin Willard
Ed Cooley
Patrick Ewing
Andy Enfield
Mike White
Ben Howland
Buzz Williams

make more than Wojo does.

Some of that’s Wojo’s performance though. He hasn’t really warranted to be paid higher than that. Wasn’t Buzz at $2.7M or close to 3M? I know his was structured pretty uniquely.

[Viper]

I guess 4:20 came 21 minutes early for you.  Which coach of the last five thought that Marquette was a place they wanted to be forever?  Go on, I'll wait.

save the sarcasm. Re-read what I posted. To some, MU is not a destination job. To others, however...maybe even Wojo, it is.

[brewcity77]

We were a 3 seed for two seasons, a top 6 seed for 4 seasons, and when we were a bubble 11 seed we made the S16.  Our record during the course of those seasons is irrelevant.  You don't "live on the bubble" as a 6 seed.

Did you regularly read Bubble Watch during the Buzz era?

I’d say two of six not that it matters.

Same question.

Guys, I didn't come up with the moniker, but it was a real thing that lasted for years because we were always on the bubble. Bubble Watch usually starts after Christmas, when most bracketologists start their brackets. Look at 2010. We were squarely on the bubble until well into February.

[MuggsyB]

Did you regularly read Bubble Watch during the Buzz era?

Same question.

Guys, I didn't come up with the moniker, but it was a real thing that lasted for years because we were always on the bubble. Bubble Watch usually starts after Christmas, when most bracketologists start their brackets. Look at 2010. We were squarely on the bubble until well into February.

No,  I did not read "Bubble Watch".  Did it occur to you that the BEast conf the year we were an 11 seed may have been the best conf in the history of college basketball?  Also, year 1 of the Buzz era could have easily been a F4 team if Dominic did not get injured  vs UCONN.  I respect your opinions but vehemently disagree with the Buzz/Wojo comparison.  We have an incalculable amount of work to do.  Take care B-City.

[Hards Alumni]

save the sarcasm. Re-read what I posted. To some, MU is not a destination job. To others, however...maybe even Wojo, it is.

Do you think if Duke opened up and they called, Wojo would say no?  There's your answer.

[shoothoops]

Did you regularly read Bubble Watch during the Buzz era?

Same question.

Guys, I didn't come up with the moniker, but it was a real thing that lasted for years because we were always on the bubble. Bubble Watch usually starts after Christmas, when most bracketologists start their brackets. Look at 2010. We were squarely on the bubble until well into February.

Like I said, two of six seasons vs six of seven seasons, isn't the same.

And, again, you are what your record says you are. The records are pretty clear here, and very different.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Some of that’s Wojo’s performance though. He hasn’t really warranted to be paid higher than that.

Yes of course. But the start of this conversation was the idea that we had enough money to lure any coach we want. We might pay a new coach a little more than Wojo makes now, but I doubt it. The reality is, most high major coaches already make more than we would offer. If we hire someone, it will likely be a mid-major head coach, high-major assistant, or recently fired high-major head coach. Which again is fine. There are solid candidates who could likely do a better job than what we're currently getting.

[Lennys Tap]

I believe you are under-rating Buzz's potential at keeping Marquette relevant had he stayed, even in a non-juco world (and lots of Scoopers say he still would have been able to recruit most jucos). 

This. In Buzz’s 5th season at Marquette, he won the Big East regular season title, got a 3 seed and advanced to the Elite 8 - with zero JUCOS on the roster.

A lot of disinformation in this thread. Very few Scoopers took issue with his coaching ability - can’t think of any other than Willie. Chico hated him because he eclipsed TC’s accomplishments -but even he acknowledged that Buzz was an outstanding coach.

[brewcity77]

No,  I did not read "Bubble Watch".  Did it occur to you that the BEast conf the year we were an 11 seed may have been the best conf in the history of college basketball?  Also, year 1 of the Buzz era could have easily been a F4 team if Dominic did not get injured  vs UCONN.  I respect your opinions but vehemently disagree with the Buzz/Wojo comparison.  We have an incalculable amount of work to do.  Take care B-City.

I'm not comparing them. I'm saying we were on the bubble for about half of Buzz's tenure. I'm not defending Wojo either, so I'm not sure what the relevance of the rest of your post is.

Like I said, two of six seasons vs six of seven seasons, isn't the same.

And, again, you are what your record says you are. The records are pretty clear here, and very different.

I'm not comparing them. We were on the bubble in 2010, 2011, and 2014. That's just a fact.

Team Bubble Watch was a thing under Buzz. And Wojo hasn't been on the bubble 6/7 seasons. We weren't good enough to be there in 2015 or 2016. We are trying to get on the bubble this year but aren't there yet. He's at 3/7 seasons. He wishes he'd been on the bubble 6/7.

[forgetful]

A lot of disinformation in this thread. Very few Scoopers took issue with his coaching ability - can’t think of any other than Willie. Chico hated him because he eclipsed TC’s accomplishments -but even he acknowledged that Buzz was an outstanding coach.

Do you remember this board after we blew a 15-point lead in the NCAA tournament against Washington, or the 18-point lead against Louisville, or a bunch of the other huge blown leads.

There was definitely sentiment regarding not adjusting, not calling Time-outs, and him just not being a good enough game coach. I didn't agree with them then, and still don't, but it was a thing.

That's what Scoop does, decides in October that this is the best team we are putting on the floor since 1977. Deciding midseason that we need to fire the coach, and burn the whole thing to the ground, then half the time worrying that our coach will leave and we will be dropped to D2, because we suck so much. That is Scoop being Scoop...its what this board does.

[MU82]

Hell, after that Green Bay loss, we were the most overrated team in the country and Buzz couldn't coach.

This is Scoop!

[MuggsyB]

Hell, after that Green Bay loss, we were the most overrated team in the country and Buzz couldn't coach.

This is Scoop!

Do you think we will win tomorrow,? Revenge performance?