2014-15 NFC North/NFL Thread

[wadesworld]

Interesting question I heard today...

If Rodgers doesn't win another Super Bowl, how does he compare to Manning, Brady, Brees? (the other great QBs of his era)

Above Brees and below the other 2.

[classof2k]

Above Brees and below the other 2.

Agree.  He probably needs a couple more titles and MVPs to pass the other 2.

[brandx]

I think we all know I'm not the biggest McCarthy fan in the world, although I like to think I give him credit when it's due.  Here's what I will say, based on yesterday's game.  From the head coach on down to special teams play, this Packers team has been way too soft for way too long. As much as I despise Pete Carroll, he coaches every game and every moment of every game to win the game. He does not lay off the gas pedal or run and hide from a team that might have a good player on the other side of the ball. And, most importantly, he motivates his players and gets the absolute most out of them every game. By far the biggest difference between the Seahawks and the Packers is that while guys like Clay Matthews and Eddie Lacy are on the sidelines when the game is on the line because of (I would assume) a tight hammy and a bruised knee, respectively, guys like Richard Sherman and Earl Thomas are playing through things like a broken arm and a separated shoulder. Heck, even the Seahawks to can't stand Carroll (see: Lynch, Marshawn - won't say a word to him) plays like his hair is on fire TO SPITE of Pete Carroll. If that's what it takes to motivate your players, then I hope Mike McCarthy is able to find a way to make them hate him.  Can McCarthy force Lacy and Matthews to go out there despite possibly having some dings?  No, but does anybody really think that if they played for Pete Carroll all year long that there would be any question as to whether they were finishing that game out, even if it meant shredding the hammy or tearing an ACL?

IF, obviously barring a significant injury to a major contributor, the Packers do not WIN a Super Bowl next year, I do not want Mike McCarthy on the sidelines for the Packers in 2016. IF he cannot motivate his team and get them to play with a chip on their shoulder for the first time since 2010 after a Playoff loss like the one we just had, he will never get a team motivated to play at the highest level. I want 1 of 2 things in a coach, and preferably both. I want a coach who gets his team playing as hard as they can every time they step onto the field, whether they're down 59-0 or up 59-0 or somewhere in between (had to get at least a little bit of humor in there with the score...O-H-I-O). Someone like Pete Carroll who is going to have his team fighting even when they SHOULDN'T have a chance to win the game. And I want a coach who will NOT play scared and will NOT steer away from what has given you success in your time in Green Bay. While McCarthy decided to take the air out of the ball up by 12 points with 25 minutes left to go, a guy like Bill Belichick is saying, "I'm up 35-7 in the rain and I'm going to throw the ball all over the dang field and run the score up on you, I don't care who is on the other side of the ball." Could it come back and bight you in the ass at some point? Certainly. You could be up 12 with 25 minutes left and throw a pick 6. But I'll take my chances playing to win over not playing to lose every day of the week. I want a coach who coaches to win, not one who coaches to hope the clock strikes 0:00 before the other team can catch up.

In years past, McCarthy has done the most with what he's had.  There have been some major holes in these Packer teams, and even through the first half of this season there were major holes.  AWFUL defenses at times, no running game at times, poor/injured offensive line at times, and even an injured Rodgers and we have consistently won and made the Playoffs.  But this loss is not acceptable.  And I know this post looks like I'm putting it 100% on McCarthy and it simply isn't that way, but again, if he cannot motivate his team next year to play balls to the wall after this happened, I do not have faith that he ever will.

All well and good.... but if Bostick carries out his assignment, the Packers are in the super bowl.

They dominated what most considered to be the best team in football for 56 minutes. Then came the biggest defensive collapse in football history + Bostick's miscue.

That is any head coaches job - to make it to the Super Bowl and win.

[wadesworld]

All well and good.... but if Bostick carries out his assignment, the Packers are in the super bowl.

They dominated what most considered to be the best team in football for 56 minutes. Then came the biggest defensive collapse in football history + Bostick's miscue.

That is any head coaches job - to make it to the Super Bowl and win.

That's the exact point.  He didn't have his team motivated to play and carry out their specific assignments for 60 minutes in the biggest game of the year.  Do you think if the situation was reversed and Pete Carroll's team was receiving an onside kick their backup tight end who was assigned to block with Doug Baldwin waiting to catch the ball behind him would somehow forget what his assignment was and go to try to catch the ball?  What about Bill Belichick's backup tight end with Edelman waiting behind him to catch the ball?  I would be absolutely, completely, 100% shocked if either of those things happened.  And yet, I truly think I would've been more surprised, going into that onside kick, if the Packers had recovered it.  It's just what we've done since McCarthy/Slocum have been coaching.

When it comes down to crunch time in the biggest moments since 2010, we aren't prepared.  And when they got the onside kick was there ANY doubt whatsoever that the Seahawks were getting it into the end zone?  There never was in my mind.

The game is 60 minutes.  That includes special teams.  Mike took the air out of the ball offensively after 35 minutes and the rest of the team followed that lead.  Is there any doubt that if Cam Chancellor or Earl Thomas had picked the ball off with 6 minutes left up 12 they wouldn't have been doing everything in their power to take it back to the house, or at least get as many yards as you can to set up an easy field goal?  Why is your safety treating that play like there are 13 seconds left on the clock?  Every single Packer player treated that game like it was all done.  That, to me, is on the coach.  Not mentally prepared to play 60 minutes.  Played a great 55 minutes.  And choked.

[jsglow]

That's the exact point.  He didn't have his team motivated to play and carry out their specific assignments for 60 minutes in the biggest game of the year.  Do you think if the situation was reversed and Pete Carroll's team was receiving an onside kick their backup tight end who was assigned to block with Doug Baldwin waiting to catch the ball behind him would somehow forget what his assignment was and go to try to catch the ball?  What about Bill Belichick's backup tight end with Edelman waiting behind him to catch the ball?  I would be absolutely, completely, 100% shocked if either of those things happened.  And yet, I truly think I would've been more surprised, going into that onside kick, if the Packers had recovered it.  It's just what we've done since McCarthy/Slocum have been coaching.

When it comes down to crunch time in the biggest moments since 2010, we aren't prepared.  And when they got the onside kick was there ANY doubt whatsoever that the Seahawks were getting it into the end zone?  There never was in my mind.

The game is 60 minutes.  That includes special teams.  Mike took the air out of the ball offensively after 35 minutes and the rest of the team followed that lead.  Is there any doubt that if Cam Chancellor or Earl Thomas had picked the ball off with 6 minutes left up 12 they wouldn't have been doing everything in their power to take it back to the house, or at least get as many yards as you can to set up an easy field goal?  Why is your safety treating that play like there are 13 seconds left on the clock?  Every single Packer player treated that game like it was all done.  That, to me, is on the coach.  Not mentally prepared to play 60 minutes.  Played a great 55 minutes.  And choked.

Sadly, 100% correct.

And you know who's been more man about it all since the game?  Bostick himself.  Not MM.  That doesn't fly with me.

[wadesworld]

Sadly, 100% correct.

And you know who's been more man about it all since the game?  Bostick himself.  Not MM.  That doesn't fly with me.

Absolutely agree.  Did he royally mess up?  He did.  But at least when he does it he takes responsibility for it and doesn't hide.  I can respect a person who makes a mistake and stands up to it.  I can't stand that every single big game loss we have some giant mental blunders as a team that help lead to it, and every press conference we ever hear is how we have to fix the errors.  It never happens and never changes.

[Spotcheck Billy]

If GB wins that game was Pete Carroll such the perfect coach you painted him as? His QB threw 4 INT's, special teams lost a fumble etc.

GET OVER IT! II'S JUST A GAME!

I think we all know I'm not the biggest McCarthy fan in the world, although I like to think I give him credit when it's due.  Here's what I will say, based on yesterday's game.  From the head coach on down to special teams play, this Packers team has been way too soft for way too long. As much as I despise Pete Carroll, he coaches every game and every moment of every game to win the game. He does not lay off the gas pedal or run and hide from a team that might have a good player on the other side of the ball. And, most importantly, he motivates his players and gets the absolute most out of them every game. By far the biggest difference between the Seahawks and the Packers is that while guys like Clay Matthews and Eddie Lacy are on the sidelines when the game is on the line because of (I would assume) a tight hammy and a bruised knee, respectively, guys like Richard Sherman and Earl Thomas are playing through things like a broken arm and a separated shoulder. Heck, even the Seahawks to can't stand Carroll (see: Lynch, Marshawn - won't say a word to him) plays like his hair is on fire TO SPITE of Pete Carroll. If that's what it takes to motivate your players, then I hope Mike McCarthy is able to find a way to make them hate him.  Can McCarthy force Lacy and Matthews to go out there despite possibly having some dings?  No, but does anybody really think that if they played for Pete Carroll all year long that there would be any question as to whether they were finishing that game out, even if it meant shredding the hammy or tearing an ACL?

IF, obviously barring a significant injury to a major contributor, the Packers do not WIN a Super Bowl next year, I do not want Mike McCarthy on the sidelines for the Packers in 2016. IF he cannot motivate his team and get them to play with a chip on their shoulder for the first time since 2010 after a Playoff loss like the one we just had, he will never get a team motivated to play at the highest level. I want 1 of 2 things in a coach, and preferably both. I want a coach who gets his team playing as hard as they can every time they step onto the field, whether they're down 59-0 or up 59-0 or somewhere in between (had to get at least a little bit of humor in there with the score...O-H-I-O). Someone like Pete Carroll who is going to have his team fighting even when they SHOULDN'T have a chance to win the game. And I want a coach who will NOT play scared and will NOT steer away from what has given you success in your time in Green Bay. While McCarthy decided to take the air out of the ball up by 12 points with 25 minutes left to go, a guy like Bill Belichick is saying, "I'm up 35-7 in the rain and I'm going to throw the ball all over the dang field and run the score up on you, I don't care who is on the other side of the ball." Could it come back and bight you in the ass at some point? Certainly. You could be up 12 with 25 minutes left and throw a pick 6. But I'll take my chances playing to win over not playing to lose every day of the week. I want a coach who coaches to win, not one who coaches to hope the clock strikes 0:00 before the other team can catch up.

In years past, McCarthy has done the most with what he's had.  There have been some major holes in these Packer teams, and even through the first half of this season there were major holes.  AWFUL defenses at times, no running game at times, poor/injured offensive line at times, and even an injured Rodgers and we have consistently won and made the Playoffs.  But this loss is not acceptable.  And I know this post looks like I'm putting it 100% on McCarthy and it simply isn't that way, but again, if he cannot motivate his team next year to play balls to the wall after this happened, I do not have faith that he ever will.

[jsglow]

Absolutely agree.  Did he royally mess up?  He did.  But at least when he does it he takes responsibility for it and doesn't hide.  I can respect a person who makes a mistake and stands up to it.  I can't stand that every single big game loss we have some giant mental blunders as a team that help lead to it, and every press conference we ever hear is how we have to fix the errors.  It never happens and never changes.

All that said I remain a MM supporter.  But he and Ted need a private heart to heart on about 4 weeks.  Chances don't come along too often.

You know who I want back?  Kevin Greene.  I'm not suggesting that every coach on the team needs to be a fire breathing motivator.  But one or two do.  I'm oversimplifying it but you'll recall that Greene 'ordered' Clay to make a play in the Superbowl and 10 seconds later he did.  MM has surrounded himself with too many guys like him.  And we've paid the price for that.

[wadesworld]

All that said I remain a MM supporter.  But he and Ted need a private heart to heart on about 4 weeks.  Chances don't come along too often.

You know who I want back?  Kevin Greene.  I'm not suggesting that every coach on the team needs to be a fire breathing motivator.  But one or two do.  I'm oversimplifying it but you'll recall that Greene 'ordered' Clay to make a play in the Superbowl and 10 seconds later he did.  MM has surrounded himself with too many guys like him.  And we've paid the price for that.

Yes.  I thought when he left the team we'd miss him.  He was a very good coach.

[MerrittsMustache]

If GB wins that game was Pete Carroll such the perfect coach you painted him as? His QB threw 4 INT's, special teams lost a fumble etc.

GET OVER IT! II'S JUST A GAME!

+1

Bill Belichek botched running out the clock against Baltimore to the point where the Pats had to defend a potential game-winning Hail Mary. Coaches make mistakes. Players make mistakes. Games never go exactly as planned. You need a lot of breaks to go your way to win a championship. Sometimes it's your year, sometimes it's not.

[wadesworld]

If GB wins that game was Pete Carroll such the perfect coach you painted him as? His QB threw 4 INT's, special teams lost a fumble etc.

GET OVER IT! II'S JUST A GAME!

Thanks for the opinion.

Yes, Pete Carroll would still be a very good (not perfect) coach if his QB threw 4 INTs, special teams lost a fumble, and they still had a chance to win the game.  And the fact that, through all of that, they DID win the game, with 2 Pro Bowl defensive backs playing with 1 arm, just further proves just how good of a coach he is.  Good coaches figure out how to overcome adversity.  Average coaches figure out how to get a lead and then hope time runs out in time to win.

[GGGG]

All that said I remain a MM supporter.  But he and Ted need a private heart to heart on about 4 weeks.  Chances don't come along too often.

You know who I want back?  Kevin Greene.  I'm not suggesting that every coach on the team needs to be a fire breathing motivator.  But one or two do.  I'm oversimplifying it but you'll recall that Greene 'ordered' Clay to make a play in the Superbowl and 10 seconds later he did.  MM has surrounded himself with too many guys like him.  And we've paid the price for that.

Except Green Bay's outside linebackers were arguably better this season than in years past.  Don't pay too much attention to a line caught on recording during the Super Bowl.  You have no idea how many times Greene has said that in the past to players and it had no effect at all.  That stuff is a very small percentage of what coaching is about.

[GGGG]

Sadly, 100% correct.

And you know who's been more man about it all since the game?  Bostick himself.  Not MM.  That doesn't fly with me.

What hasn't MM done to be more of a "man?"

[jsglow]

What hasn't MM done to be more of a "man?"

He hasn't taken one ounce of responsibility for the defeat.

Look, I get that it's only a football game and I'm a MM supporter overall.  I actually agreed with several of the decisions as he was making them but not all.  But Dunne is spot on in this article:

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/mike-mccarthy-should-get-plenty-of-blame-for-packers-loss-b99429413z1-289103671.html

[GGGG]

He hasn't taken one ounce of responsibility for the defeat.

What do you want him to say?  Do you want him to say "we should have thrown more" even though he doesn't agree with it?

[wadesworld]

He hasn't taken one ounce of responsibility for the defeat.

Yup.  "I wouldn't change anything."  Fine, that's fine.  But did you LEARN anything?  Let's hope he has.

[jsglow]

What do you want him to say?  Do you want him to say "we should have thrown more" even though he doesn't agree with it?

See my edited post above.

[jsglow]

I'll say that even I learned something.  In retrospect, when you've got the very best player in all of football you find a way to put the game in his hands, if possible.  We might have failed to give him enough cracks at the endzone early in the game and we totally took the ball out of his hands in the second half working toward the magical '20 carries'.  This isn't Jay Cutler we're talking about.  (Tweak to all my Bears friends on here who are secretly enjoying our pain.  Just teasing fellas.)

[GGGG]

See, I think Dunne is largely wrong.  Everything MM did before the 5:00 mark in the 4th quarter got the Packers in position to win.  As Chicos mentioned, statistically they had something like a 96% chance of winning after the Burnett interception.

Here is where I think MM went wrong.  After going -4 on first down, he went -2 on second down, and then ran on third down.  He should have passed here - at least once.

But if he doesn't think he did anything wrong, what do you want him to say?

[hairy worthen]

See, I think Dunne is largely wrong.  Everything MM did before the 5:00 mark in the 4th quarter got the Packers in position to win.  As Chicos mentioned, statistically they had something like a 96% chance of winning after the Burnett interception.

Here is where I think MM went wrong.  After going -4 on first down, he went -2 on second down, and then ran on third down.  He should have passed here - at least once.

But if he doesn't think he did anything wrong, what do you want him to say?

Your first paragraph is mostly correct. Although you could argue that a touchdown or 2 instead of field goals would have been the kill shot, but its easy to say after the fact. 3 points are better than 0 against their defense.

On third down they were facing 3rd and 16. That's a difficult 3rd down to make and you risk a turn over an probably stop the clock. Hindsight is 20/20, but what McCarthy did was pretty much basic football. You are up two possessions with 5 minutes left. You run clock at that point and it is very unlikely you lose.  All the other unlikely plays or non plays after that point lost them the game, not the decision to run the ball.

[GGGG]

Your first paragraph is mostly correct. Although you could argue that a touchdown or 2 instead of field goals would have been the kill shot, but its easy to say after the fact. 3 points are better than 0 against their defense.

On third down they were facing 3rd and 16. That's a difficult 3rd down to make and you risk a turn over an probably stop the clock. Hindsight is 20/20, but what McCarthy did was pretty much basic football. You are up two possessions with 5 minutes left. You run clock at that point and it is very unlikely you lose.  All the other unlikely plays or non plays after that point lost them the game, not the decision to run the ball.

I would have passed on second down.  When it is 2nd and 14, I would put the ball in the hands of my MVP.  Agreed on 3rd and 16 though.  The reward of Seattle spending a TO there, or the clock running off another 40 seconds, is way greater than the risk there.

The biggest problem after that is the ease in which Seattle picked up that first TD.  They went 70 yards in 1:43 without spending a timeout.  The very first play of that drive went 14 yards, which matched their longest play of the day.  Then the next one goes 20.  Then an incompletion.  Then the pass to Lynch for 26 yards.

There is a lot of MMQBing about his decision making.  As I said, I would have passed on second down there.  But there was also no indication at all that Seattle was going to slice the Packers defense open like that.

[reinko]

I am blame Burnett for sliding after the INT.  Dude had 5 offensive lineman and Russell Wilson in front of him.

I really don't blame him, but again one of those weird things, that happened in the last 5 minutes.  He easily had 20 yards of greenery in front of him, which would put him around the 35, then who knows.

[tower912]

Green Bay's defense had completely stymied Seattle for the first 55 minutes.   It was a reasonable assumption that they would be able to keep them from scoring 2 touchdowns in 2 minutes.   Milking the clock and playing field position has won a lot of games over the years.    It has lost some, too, obviously.   MM had a plan.   It didn't work. 

[GGGG]

I am blame Burnett for sliding after the INT.  Dude had 5 offensive lineman and Russell Wilson in front of him.

Julius Peppers was motioning for him to get down. 

[reinko]

Julius Peppers was motioning for him to get down. 

Saw that for sure, again, not blaming him or Peppers.  You see it all the time, a CB gets aggressive with the INT return, and woooop ball pops out.  It was technically the right thing to do.  But just this one time, be dumb and aggressive, ignore your teammates and keep running.  If he does, they probably win the game.