MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: Warrior of Law on March 26, 2024, 03:57:09 PM
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I didn't include the bench players, but a good argument can be made for any of these teams being the best.
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I still think 11-12 was better than 12-13. I could be wrong but I think we peaked higher on kenpom as well.
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If by referring to "1977" you mean the title team, then I also would include the team immediately following (i.e., 1977-78 team: Butch; Whitehead; Toone; Boylan; Payne; Rosenberger; Byrd; etc.) 24-4
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Best MU team was 1976, with 5 starters making the pros.
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Best MU team was 1976, with 5 starters making the pros.
Did you read the question?
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This poll is a couple weeks premature.
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There can be no good Marquette team without Al as coach. Shaka's OK, but he won't ever slap his star in the face, so that's a disqualifier.
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This poll is a couple weeks premature.
This
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This poll is a couple weeks premature.
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There can be no good Marquette team without Al as coach. Shaka's OK, but he won't ever slap his star in the face, so that's a disqualifier.
Sidebar: for some reason I read Al as A-i...weird though....there can be no good Marquette team without Ai as coach..... :o
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This waiting game is getting to me ... No more scoop for me until the Friday tip. Need to bring it on and beat NCST!
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I'd change the poll .. remove 2002-03 .. this is a race for 2nd place.
Probably add 2008-09, Dom James, McNeal, Wes, Lazar, JFB, etc.
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Wish we could have seen 2008-09 with a heathy Dom.
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Of course it’s premature. Frankly, if the poll was right before the FF blowout vs Kansas, then 02-03 would win in a landslide. There are arguments for all of the teams, but the final game weights pretty heavy.
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Think last year's team with omax was better. Didn't go as far but that's the tourney for you.
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In retrospect this question should be best team that made a run. We've had some unreal teams that were upset early due to matchups (11-12), upset early due to ridiculous performance (97 or 96), upset due to choking (last year), derailed from injury (08-09), derailed from internal issues (18-19) all could have some arguments to be great teams. But since Al we've only had 6 other March runs:
79: Sweet 16
94: Sweet 16
03: Final 4
11: Sweet 16
12: Sweet 16
13: Elite 8
That's what people should be voting on.
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I still think 11-12 was better than 12-13. I could be wrong but I think we peaked higher on kenpom as well.
agreed that the 2011/12 team was the best of Buzz's teams. DJO, Crowder, Blue, Jamil, Cadougan + Mayo, Gardner
Hank's best: 1977-78
Deane's best: 1995-96
Crean's best: 2002-03, 2001-02, 2007-08
Buzz's best: 2011-12, 2008-09, 2012-13
Wojo's best: 2018-19
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upset due to choking (last year)
Maybe last year's team choked, maybe not.
No maybe: It was clearly hurt by an injury to our All-American's dominant hand.
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Maybe last year's team choked, maybe not.
No maybe: It was clearly hurt by an injury to our All-American's dominant hand.
Yeah... but we also had a first round draft pick and two second team all conference players, annd the 6th man of the year yet they didn't light the world on fire either. Tyler had bad games before and the other guys stepped up. When collectively nobody steps up plus the injury I'm willing to call it a choke with an asterisk.
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That's not really a choke. It's just a bad game. It happens.
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Best MU team was 1976, with 5 starters making the pros.
Al actually thought the '71 team was his best.
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The only thing that matters, really, is NCAA tourney success.
If this years team wins a championship, then Kolek is better than Wade and this year's team is better than 2003. Just the way it is.
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There can be no good Marquette team without Al as coach. Shaka's OK, but he won't ever slap his star in the face, so that's a disqualifier.
your sarcasm aside, Al McGuire put Marquette on the basketball map. His run was incredible. Agreed?
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That's not really a choke. It's just a bad game. It happens.
How would you define choke? Perhaps we have different definitions.
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Yeah... but we also had a first round draft pick and two second team all conference players, annd the 6th man of the year yet they didn't light the world on fire either. Tyler had bad games before and the other guys stepped up. When collectively nobody steps up plus the injury I'm willing to call it a choke with an asterisk.
Hmm.
So after we choked in losing to Michigan State, MSU choked in losing to K-State, which then choked in losing to FAU, which subsequently choked in losing to San Diego State, which really choked in losing to UConn.
As Jerry Lee Lewis woulda sung ... "We ain't jokin', whole lotta chokin' goin' on!"
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Think last year's team with omax was better. Didn't go as far but that's the tourney for you.
Love this year’s team but I agree with you. We could’ve won the title last year and UCONN winning it as a 4 seed, when we beat them twice, was painful indeed.
Nothing says we can’t go win it this year, though!
PS: I also think the 2001-2002 team with Blankson and Henry was better than the FF team yet we lost in round 1.
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Love this year’s team but I agree with you. We could’ve won the title last year and UCONN winning it as a 4 seed, when we beat them twice, was painful indeed.
Nothing says we can’t go win it this year, though!
PS: I also think the 2001-2002 team with Blankson and Henry was better than the FF team yet we lost in round 1.
Agree on last year vs. this year. We were a little better last year, but were very good both years.
Disagree on 2002-2003 - Addition of Robert Jackson and Novak plus a year's more experience for everyone else trumps loss of Blankson and Henry.
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I'm not convinced we were better last year. We were *healthier* last year. And this team has more experience.
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Hmm.
So after we choked in losing to Michigan State, MSU choked in losing to K-State, which then choked in losing to FAU, which subsequently choked in losing to San Diego State, which really choked in losing to UConn.
As Jerry Lee Lewis woulda sung ... "We ain't jokin', whole lotta chokin' goin' on!"
Against FAU sure, as far as SDSU goes is losing to the number 1 Kenpom team who's seeded higher than you a choke? I don't think so. I don't think you'd call it one either.
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How would you define choke? Perhaps we have different definitions.
A choke is game you have wrapped up but then give away.
Losing as a favorite isn't a "choke." It's just an upset.
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Against FAU sure, as far as SDSU goes is losing to the number 1 Kenpom team who's seeded higher than you a choke? I don't think so. I don't think you'd call it one either.
You're right. I wouldn't call that a choke. Or any of the others.
A choke is game you have wrapped up but then give away.
Losing as a favorite isn't a "choke." It's just an upset.
Exactly.
A favorite losing can be a choke, but it isn't necessarily a choke.
Committing turnovers and missing FTs down the stretch to blow a 12-point lead with 2 minutes to go ... that's an example of a choke.
I'd willingly call Marquette's loss to the Izzos a choke if that's what it was. Creighton's home loss to Marquette in 2019 - THAT was a choke. And we almost choked away our win at St. John's this season. Losing to Michigan State because we didn't play well and couldn't hit shots ... not a choke.
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A choke is game you have wrapped up but then give away.
Losing as a favorite isn't a "choke." It's just an upset.
As I said maybe we have different definitions but seems like yours is not the end all be all.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Choke_(sports)
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As I said maybe we have different definitions but seems like yours is not the end all be all.
I don't really care what Wikipedia says on the matter.
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I don't really care what Wikipedia says on the matter.
That's how I feel about your definition as well. I accept it's true as is mine, I've offered a source you did not. Let me just play out the rest of this conversation for you since I'm not doing this whole "sultans always right" game when my wife's grandmother died.
You'll stubbornly double down claiming to be right without a source and continue to respond to get the last word.
will soon enough throw an ad hominem attack out there yet ignore that it's a logical fallacy discrediting your position saying "that's what you're being"
Then you'll chalk the difference to semantics saying your opinion is right and all others are wrong.
There you go I'm done with this conversation with you. 82, if you'd like to respond go for it.
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That's how I feel about your definition as well. I accept it's true as is mine, I've offered a source you did not. Let me just play out the rest of this conversation for you since I'm not doing this whole "sultans always right" game when my wife's grandmother died.
You'll stubbornly double down claiming to be right without a source and continue to respond to get the last word.
will soon enough throw an ad hominem attack out there yet ignore that it's a logical fallacy discrediting your position saying "that's what you're being"
Then you'll chalk the difference to semantics saying your opinion is right and all others are wrong.
There you go I'm done with this conversation with you. 82, if you'd like to respond go for it.
White flag noted.
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To the 3 other people who voted 1994, congrats. You know ball.
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82, if you'd like to respond go for it.
Nah, aside from repeating that I don't think last year's team (which struggled with its best player injured) "choked," I'll let you have the last word.
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To the 3 other people who voted 1994, congrats. You know ball.
Lost in the Sweet 16? Meh
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PS: I also think the 2001-2002 team with Blankson and Henry was better than the FF team yet we lost in round 1.
Naw.
2003 Wade > 2002 Wade
Diener starting PG > Henry
Novak off the bench= Diener off the bench
2003 Merritt >> 2002 Merritt
Jackson >>>> Nnamaka
I'll give you ODB over TT.
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A choke is game you have wrapped up but then give away.
Losing as a favorite isn't a "choke." It's just an upset.
Username checks out.
And I generally agree.
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This year's team is better than last year's. Record aside, we are a much better, much more connected defensive team. We haven't been as consistent offensively, but the offensive ceiling is just as high. Yes, O-Max was a better individual defender than his replacements, but the overall activity level, competence in switches, and double team timing has really made this a better overall unit.
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Lost in the Sweet 16? Meh
Yeah. A blast to be back at that level after plumbing the depths during the Dukiet years, but not in the same conversation with great teams since '77.
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Yeah. A blast to be back at that level after plumbing the depths during the Dukiet years, but not in the same conversation with great teams since '77.
I think 96 was determined to be the top team of the 90s during a thread from a few years ago.
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Yeah. A blast to be back at that level after plumbing the depths during the Dukiet years, but not in the same conversation with great teams since '77.
Correct.
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This year's team is better than last year's. Record aside, we are a much better, much more connected defensive team. We haven't been as consistent offensively, but the offensive ceiling is just as high. Yes, O-Max was a better individual defender than his replacements, but the overall activity level, competence in switches, and double team timing has really made this a better overall unit.
Much better? Not necessarily. Nearly the same team. In many ways. Also people are undervaluing the regular season in this whole thread.
Like I think it’s fair for the 03 final 4 team to win this poll. But it should not be winning the way it is. Digging deeply I’m not certain they are the best team. They Lack big regular season wins that even last years Shaka team had. Conference USA baby. 2-1 record vs top 25. The UAB conference tournament loss.
It just shouldn’t be a runaway
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Much better? Not necessarily. Nearly the same team. In many ways. Also people are undervaluing the regular season in this whole thread.
Nearly the same players...but they all have an additional year of experience.
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Our KenPom ranking is lower at the moment (finished last year at 10, currently sit at 13), but our Adjusted Efficiency Margin is higher (currently 22.94, finished last year at 22.38). And we've had a lot more missed games from key players this year than we had last year (Kolek, Kam, Stevie, Chase all missed multiple games this year, Oso missed a game).
We're a better team this year.
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As I said maybe we have different definitions but seems like yours is not the end all be all.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Choke_(sports)
"In sports, choking is the failure of a person, or persons, to act or behave as anticipated or expected."
So we're clear, if a 88% free throw shooter misses one, is that a choke? Because I "expect" him to make the shot.
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I think 96 was determined to be the top team of the 90s during a thread from a few years ago.
Which is probably why they are the only '90s era team listed. (I'm presuming you mean top Marquette team of the 90s).
They lead MU back out of the wilderness, but not nearly as talented as the current team IMO.
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"In sports, choking is the failure of a person, or persons, to act or behave as anticipated or expected."
So we're clear, if a 88% free throw shooter misses one, is that a choke? Because I "expect" him to make the shot.
In a vacuum? No, they aren't a 100% free throw shooter. But when Markus Howard was a >90% free throw shooter and would shoot underneath that I'd personally say he choked at the line that game.
Which is probably why they are the only '90s era team listed. (I'm presuming you mean top Marquette team of the 90s).
They lead MU back out of the wilderness, but not nearly as talented as the current team IMO.
94's the only 90s team listed, because as you say they lead MU out of the wilderness plus they made a sweet 16, but a few years ago someone ran a bunch of top teams of each decade or maybe era polls and plenty of people decided 96 (4seed lose to Austin Crosshare and Providence in round of 32) was the better all around team.
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In a vacuum? No, they aren't a 100% free throw shooter. But when Markus Howard was a >90% free throw shooter and would shoot underneath that I'd personally say he choked at the line that game.
94's the only 90s team listed, because as you say they lead MU out of the wilderness plus they made a sweet 16, but a few years ago someone ran a bunch of top teams of each decade or maybe era polls and plenty of people decided 96 (4seed lose to Austin Crosshare and Providence in round of 32) was the better all around team.
Sorry, I missed that you said '96.
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We lost to a Duke team that had Grant Hill as a junior. The level of competition then was so high and MU was competing night in and night with teams stacked with NBA players while we had Mac, baby Amal and infant Crawford.
Also, Tony Miller the PointFather.
And of course, Damon.
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It’s clearly not much of a debate. Teams are measured by how far they go in the tournament. There certainly have been a lot of teams that had the talent to reach the final 4 since 1977, but only one team has done it. Maybe other teams had more talent, but their failure to advance to the FF puts them behind the 03 team in my book.
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In a vacuum? No, they aren't a 100% free throw shooter. But when Markus Howard was a >90% free throw shooter and would shoot underneath that I'd personally say he choked at the line that game.
94's the only 90s team listed, because as you say they lead MU out of the wilderness plus they made a sweet 16, but a few years ago someone ran a bunch of top teams of each decade or maybe era polls and plenty of people decided 96 (4seed lose to Austin Crosshare and Providence in round of 32) was the better all around team.
96 was the 4 seed that lost to Arkansas when Kareem Reid was out of his mind. 97 was the 7 seed that lost to Providence in round 1.
Both teams were good, but neither were unreal or stacking up to any of Crean/Buzz/Wojo/Shaka's best. They were fringe top 20 teams at their very peak.
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To the 3 other people who voted 1994, congrats. You know ball.
Agree Lens,
And even if you are being sarcastic, which I don’t think you are, I still love that team. Thought they could/should have beaten Duke. What a fun team to watch.
Late to the party. Saw your comment on the first page Lens but just read the one on this one. Fully agree with you.
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96 was the 4 seed that lost to Arkansas when Kareem Reid was out of his mind. 97 was the 7 seed that lost to Providence in round 1.
Both teams were good, but neither were unreal or stacking up to any of Crean/Buzz/Wojo/Shaka's best. They were fringe top 20 teams at their very peak.
Thanks for the correction. So were they over seeded? Seems odd that they'd snag that 4 seed back then and not be at least in the conversation
I mean 2003, 2012, & 2013 were 3 seeds and 2002 & 2019 were 5 so it seems like they'd be in the conversation with those 5 teams more so than every other team except maybe what could have been in 08-09.