Crean cleaning up

[ChicosBailBonds]

So... is your foot (or fish?) OK?  

In your little 'hate the Iraq war but love the country' example... no, you shouldn't move to Canada until the war is over.  But, you also shouldn't show up at the funeral of dead American soldiers and protest and scream and complain in the face of the soldiers' families.  That is the issue.

I would do neither....of course I supported the Iraq War and still do, but that's beside the point. 

Let's cut to the chase, there are people on this board that want nothing but 24/7 fanboys here that are in lockstep and that's it.  They will 100% of the time do what you did with Brett Favre...turn a blind eye, blame everyone else (i.e. recruits, there families, etc), never question anything.

Sorry, not going to be that person.  Never have been and never will be.

I want Buzz to succeed at Marquette, you keep ignoring that.  But if he (or any other coach) is doing some things that are wrong and damaging MU, I'll say it.  Just like I did with TC when it was warranted.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Kind of like where is Saunders going to find a high major offer when all the high major offers are spoken for...kind of like that? LOL

Yeah, Duquense is High Major 

[ChicosBailBonds]

None of the facts have changed in the Saunders situation since the day MU said Saudners would not be admitted to Marquette.  However, at that time you said "Duq had a spot, we didn't.  DS' former coach is on their staff now.  If we had a spot, safe to say DS would probably be on the team here." So, at that time, you clearly thought that not admitting Saunders was simply done because we didn't have room for him (I agree).  

Was it?  Or was it also a way for the University and the Athletic department to sweep under the rug about a guy that was caught with drugs?

I also agree that people's expectations, morals, values...etc may change over time, but I don't see how someone's logic, or lack thereof, would change.  3 years ago you logically assumed that Saunders was not let into MU becuase we had no room at the inn.  Now you are backtracking and saying it was due to his arrest or academics, but nothing has changed, what gives? Have you rationally looked at the exact same facts and come to a completely different conclusion.

No, you obviously didn't read all of the other posts.  Yes, in THAT post I said that but I also that this was a way for MU to slide this under the rug because of the drug situation.  You're also conveniently forgetting about the whole DJ going pro situation as well, which led to the over signing in the first place.  That's why over signing happened 9 months prior.  Again, totally different circumstances.  Newbill was signed to a LOI full well knowing that MU was working on that transfer with Wilson at the same time.  WTF were we doing signing him when that was in the works?  That's a lot different than taking on Saunders back in November with the understanding DJ was leaving 9 months letter.  Again, those pesky little details.  I don't like what MU did and think it was wrong in both situations, but the circumstances are entirely different yet you refuse to accept them as such.  Why?

I'm glad that you have stated what MU did to Saunders was wrong.  Would you feel beter if MU had come out and said that Newbill was not going to be admitted to MU?
Would MU have then been less wrong in comparison to the Saunders case since they let Newbill know this 2 months sooner? Saunders was subsequentlly admitted to Duquesne, Newbill was subsequently submitted to Southern Mississippi.  I think these 2 situations are very similar, except that in Saunders' case, MU had already oversigned; while in Newbill's case, MU wanted to sign another guy.  Maybe MU should have taken the Wilson transfer/comittment and then waited until August 27th to let Newbill know that he would not be admitted?

No, that would have been a chicken crap response because the kid had the grades to get in.

Secondly, Newbill could have gone to another Big East school but because we signed him, he was screwed in that regard...his Big East days were over.  Because we cut him loose late in the recruiting game, he was also screwed.  Do you think this kid wanted to go to Southern Mississippi?  Please.    Did Saunders want to go to Duquense...nope...but at least in that incident he has himself to blame.  He wasn't admitted and he got caught with drugs. He was also screwed with timing, but he is primary cause of that situation through HIS actions.  Thus the two situations are TOTALLY DIFFERENT!!!!

Newbill's crime was signing a LOI and either totally not understanding his offer (which can't be conditional as that's ILLEGAL) or some other reason which has yet to pass the sniff test.

Saunders crime was an actual crime...he was busted for drug possession....and he was not admitted to the university.  

Please tell me you understand the differences.  Please tell me why you keep comparing the two situations?  THEY ARE NOT THE SAME

[jmayer1]

Yeah, Duquense is High Major 

????

Neither Duquense or Southern Miss is a high major.

[ChicosBailBonds]

????

Neither Duquense or Southern Miss is a high major.

Exactly

Both were screwed out of that opportunity.  One by his own actions (poor grades, drug possession), the other because he signed a LOI (no criminal issue, no grades issue) and got bumped for someone else.

Both situations suck, one sucks a lot more.

[Jay Bee]

Insufferable.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Insufferable.

Your approach in trying to compare two situations that were not alike to prove a point and keep your Platinum Status fanboism...I agree.  Insufferable.

[jmayer1]

Was it?  Or was it also a way for the University and the Athletic department to sweep under the rug about a guy that was caught with drugs?


No, you obviously didn't read all of the other posts.  Yes, in THAT post I said that but I also that this was a way for MU to slide this under the rug because of the drug situation.  You're also conveniently forgetting about the whole DJ going pro situation as well, which led to the over signing in the first place.  That's why over signing happened 9 months prior.  Again, totally different circumstances.  Newbill was signed to a LOI full well knowing that MU was working on that transfer with Wilson at the same time.  WTF were we doing signing him when that was in the works?  That's a lot different than taking on Saunders back in November with the understanding DJ was leaving 9 months letter.  Again, those pesky little details.  I don't like what MU did and think it was wrong in both situations, but the circumstances are entirely different yet you refuse to accept them as such.  Why?

No, that would have been a chicken crap response because the kid had the grades to get in.

Secondly, Newbill could have gone to another Big East school but because we signed him, he was screwed in that regard...his Big East days were over.  Because we cut him loose late in the recruiting game, he was also screwed.  Do you think this kid wanted to go to Southern Mississippi?  Please.    Did Saunders want to go to Duquense...nope...but at least in that incident he has himself to blame.  He wasn't admitted and he got caught with drugs. He was also screwed with timing, but he is primary cause of that situation through HIS actions.  Thus the two situations are TOTALLY DIFFERENT!!!!

Newbill's crime was signing a LOI and either totally not understanding his offer (which can't be conditional as that's ILLEGAL) or some other reason which has yet to pass the sniff test.

Saunders crime was an actual crime...he was busted for drug possession....and he was not admitted to the university.  

Please tell me you understand the differences.  Please tell me why you keep comparing the two situations?  THEY ARE NOT THE SAME

I didn't go through and read all of your responses on this subject, I don't want to waste my time and effort doing that. I am referring to the post that Rocky linked to only.  In that post you made it clear that you thought he would have been on the team had there been a spot open.  You are now doing a complete 180 on that stance, despite the fact that none of the facts have changed, stating that DJ not going pro, his grades, or his arrest were reasons why he was not admitted.  That has nothing to do with my question so please stop bringinng those up.  Do you no longer hold that same viewpoint that Saunders would have been on the team if there was a spot open? Yes or No?  If you don't hold that same viewpoint any longer that's fine, I just want to be clear on your current opinion.

[jmayer1]

Exactly

Both were screwed out of that opportunity.  One by his own actions (poor grades, drug possession), because MU oversigned, otherwise he would have been on the team, the other because he signed a LOI (no criminal issue, no grades issue) and got bumped for someone else.

Both situations suck, one sucks a lot more as the player found out only days before classes were set to start.

Fixed it for you based on your comments.

[Lennys Tap]

Kind of like where is Newbill going to find a high major offer when all the high major offers are spoken for...kind of like that?  LOL

Actually nothing like that at all, unless June just morphed into December. LOL

[Lennys Tap]

How many times do I have to say it.  I admitted as such a few months ago....things change.  I used to think Mike Dukakis was great and abortion no big deal.  There are lots of things in life that people change opinions on...this just in.

I guess it's possible that a 40+ guy could do a complete 180 on the ethics of these situations, but here's where your history does you in. Thousands of posts on TC, most of which praise and/or defend him. Hundreds (thousands?) of posts on Buzz, the vast majority being negative. Similar situations, three years apart. Crean gets a total pass from you, Buzz gets absolutely villified. Sorry, too much coincidence for me.

[NavinRJohnson]

I want Buzz to succeed at Marquette, you keep ignoring that.  But if he (or any other coach) is doing some things that are wrong and damaging MU, I'll say it.  Just like I did with TC when it was warranted.

I think most would argue that he is succeeding to this point. You already have said very clearly that he is doing things that are wrong or "stupid" and damaging to MU, so why would you want him to succeed? you say he's doing things the wrong way, yet you want him to succeed...Do you see how that doesn't make any sense? If I believed what you believe, I wouldn't want him around to risk damaging the program for years to come.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Fixed it for you based on your comments.

So let me understand this, the fact he was not admitted to the university and was arrested for drugs had nothing to do with Saunders not coming to MU?

And sorry, Saunders shots were limited by what he had done...his own actions.  Newbill's shots were limited because he had the audacity to believe in our staff and trusted them so he signed a letter of intent.

Big Difference.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Actually nothing like that at all, unless June just morphed into December. LOL

He found out in June (June 30th)...all high major offers for this season were gone, including an entire conference (the Big East) because he signed a NLI.  June he finds out, school starts in late August....what high major offer is out there July 1st?  Basically none.  Both kids were screwed on timing, only one was screwed by his actions and the other by.....

http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/basketball/blog/the_dagger/post/Did-Marquette-put-winning-before-ethics-by-cutti?urn=ncaab-252690

[ChicosBailBonds]

I guess it's possible that a 40+ guy could do a complete 180 on the ethics of these situations, but here's where your history does you in. Thousands of posts on TC, most of which praise and/or defend him. Hundreds (thousands?) of posts on Buzz, the vast majority being negative. Similar situations, three years apart. Crean gets a total pass from you, Buzz gets absolutely villified. Sorry, too much coincidence for me.

Again you are dishonest, just like you were the other day with your wisecrack about the JUCO 7 footer at IU and your slur toward me pertaining to that situation, but of course you still haven't corrected that post.  Shameful.  

You read what you want.

The vast majority of my posts are not negative of Buzz.  Of course if I were to type a post that said "Buzz likes Ice Cream" you would state that is negative.  That's the problem, when you play psychologist like you do, you get to decide what is negative and what isn't...funny how that works in your brain.  Take a look at my last 100 posts, 1000 posts, last 5000 posts....you're telling me the "vast majority" are negative on Buzz? Please.  So beyond reality. Shameful slur.

Look at this thread alone, the first 12 posts I made it in are not negative to Buzz at all, most don't even talk about the man (does that mean it's negative in your eyes).  The first two pages, one post was joking about Buzz being a beautiful man....1 of 15...that's sure a "vast majority".  

The first "negative" post came at post 54...and it was an opinion (kicking the kid to the curb) that is held by many people, including some sports journalists. Vast majority baby....vast majority.  

[ChicosBailBonds]

I think most would argue that he is succeeding to this point. You already have said very clearly that he is doing things that are wrong or "stupid" and damaging to MU, so why would you want him to succeed? you say he's doing things the wrong way, yet you want him to succeed...Do you see how that doesn't make any sense? If I believed what you believe, I wouldn't want him around to risk damaging the program for years to come.

READ AGAIN.  I said WHEN he does things that are damaging to MU.  But you make it sound like I say every move he makes is damaging, every time he talks, etc.  

That's the disconnect Navin.  It's not an all or nothing like you want to make it out to be.  When he does things that generate articles on CBS Sports, Yahoo Sports, Philadelphia newspapers, message boards, etc because of his actions...yes, I'd call that damaging.  Apparently even Buzz realized it because he said "I know I lost some of you with that one".  Why would he say that if it wasn't a decision that he, indeed, did lose some folks for that decision? 

Do you have kids?  I'm being serious, do you have kids?  Do you ever yell at them, possibly spank them?  Are you ever angry at them because they did something wrong?  Do you ever have to correct them or show them that some of their actions can be damaging?  Does that mean you HATE your kids?  Does that mean you don't want your kids to be successful?  Does that mean you love your kids any less?

Think about it for a minute before you respond...seriously, think about it.  This isn't black and white like you want to make it out.  It's a ludicrous argument you are trying to concoct.  

[Jay Bee]

Character revealed.  Over and over.  Again and again.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

 
Let's cut to the chase, there are people on this board that want nothing but 24/7 fanboys here that are in lockstep and that's it.  They will 100% of the time do what you did with Brett Favre...turn a blind eye, blame everyone else (i.e. recruits, there families, etc), never question anything.

Sorry, not going to be that person.  Never have been and never will be.

Chico's, I agree with you a lot of the time, and I too don't want to be a blind fanboy.

But, let's just boil this down and get it over with:

You feel that TC gets unreasonably roasted, while Buzz is given a free pass on a lot of stuff.

Several posters around here feel you unreasonably roast Buzz while giving TC a free pass on a lot of stuff.

That's it.

Agree to disagree and move on everybody.

[Lennys Tap]

Exactly

Both were screwed out of that opportunity.  One by his own actions (poor grades, drug possession), the other because he signed a LOI (no criminal issue, no grades issue) and got bumped for someone else.

Both situations suck, one sucks a lot more.

Damian Saunders was not screwed by his own actions. Tom Crean himself admitted that the misdemeanor marijuana charge against him played no part in his being canned. The grades issue is total bs as Damian was FULLY QUALIFIED by the NCAA.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Damian Saunders was not screwed by his own actions. Tom Crean himself admitted that the misdemeanor marijuana charge against him played no part in his being canned. The grades issue is total bs as Damian was FULLY QUALIFIED by the NCAA.

Why didn't he keep Saunders and cut the less valuable player?  What would Buzz have done?

Damian's own actions made it easier to decide who was going to Creaned \ Buzzcut.  In both cases, it shouldn't happened.  Again, the comparison between the two is as far away as Pluto to the Sun.

In one case MU signed a kid thinking Dominic James would be gone 6 months later, the kid got busted, the kid was not admitted to the university (also per Crean...so what you're saying is you believe Crean on the marijuana but not on the admissions part...convenient) vs a kid that was signed FULL KNOWING that we were working on getting a transfer in the fold at the same time.

"Unfortunately, Damian won't be able to be accepted at Marquette,"  "His final grades and test scores were not at a level that was deemed appropriate for Marquette University. He's not through the (NCAA) Clearinghouse at this point. But this was more of a Marquette situation because of where he grades were at."

"I never really felt, after hearing the different facts in the story, that he really did anything that wrong, except choose to be with the wrong people at the wrong place at the wrong time. To my knowledge, it's already been taken care of. This was totally an academic issue."

Not even close to the same thing, but nevertheless they are both wrong.  One is just worse than the other in terms of degrees.  Damian made his own bed.  If he wasn't caught with drugs, he likely would have been on the team and someone else would have been Creaned \ Buzz Cut.

[jesmu84]

a kid that was signed FULL KNOWING that we were working on getting a transfer in the fold at the same time.

obviously, i know wilson transferred to marquette. but i'm not enough in the insiders' loop to know things that are going on much before they are announced publicly.  is there any article or information out there that states we were working on wilson's transfer for however long before it was announced?

[Lennys Tap]

Again you are dishonest, just like you were the other day with your wisecrack about the JUCO 7 footer at IU and your slur toward me pertaining to that situation, but of course you still haven't corrected that post.  Shameful.  

You read what you want.

The vast majority of my posts are not negative of Buzz.  Of course if I were to type a post that said "Buzz likes Ice Cream" you would state that is negative.  That's the problem, when you play psychologist like you do, you get to decide what is negative and what isn't...funny how that works in your brain.  Take a look at my last 100 posts, 1000 posts, last 5000 posts....you're telling me the "vast majority" are negative on Buzz? Please.  So beyond reality. Shameful slur.

Look at this thread alone, the first 12 posts I made it in are not negative to Buzz at all, most don't even talk about the man (does that mean it's negative in your eyes).  The first two pages, one post was joking about Buzz being a beautiful man....1 of 15...that's sure a "vast majority".  

The first "negative" post came at post 54...and it was an opinion (kicking the kid to the curb) that is held by many people, including some sports journalists. Vast majority baby....vast majority.  

You're misrepresenting my point, as usual. When I say that the vast majority of your posts on Buzz are negative, that necessarily assumes that the posts are A)on Buzz and B)that you take a positve or negative position on him in the post. The ones on direct TV or about Buzz eating ice cream or otherwise nuetral ones don't count as part of the sample. But go ahead and continue with your slurs and personnel attacks on me. I get that the more indefensible your position is the louder you scream and feign outrage - used to bother me but it's so common I'm growing immune.

[ChicosBailBonds]

You would still be wrong Lenny. The vast majority of my posts about Buzz are not negative.  Just do an audit, it's not hard.

[Dr. Blackheart]

I apologize to the board upfront...but it is interesting to me to see the Crean Pissing Match has spread to other school internet sites.  The Baylor v. IU rift makes our Crean Bashing seem tame, even trying to spread this virally to other B10 sites like Iowa and Illinois.  Oh my...on the Perea recruitment.  Note:  Baylor is hardly innocent here but there has apparently been bashing back and forth. For the record, I believe Crean is clean but all D1 recruiting is "squirmy", even Izzo it seems.

_________________________________________________________________________________________________

"I heard the NCAA is gone (from Baylor). They are taking a look at the AHOPE foundation that took in $408,000 in contributions over the last few years and has $377 in cash on the books. I found that out by searching the 990 forms on guidestone.org. Most foundations with hundreds of thousands of dollars in contributions keep more than $400 in assets. Sure sounds like the needs are presented (probably to IU boosters); donations are made (probably by IU boosters) and then boom- the money goes out. Sure would love to get a hold of the donor list to this foundation.

The foundation is run by IU alum Mark Adams- AAU coach for Indiana Elite. There are 7 or 8 commitments from Indiana Select kids to Indiana University where Mark Adams' son Drew Adams is the video coordinator. Hanner Perea was one of those commitments. Some of these kids are Indiana homegrown. Some are brought in from Africa and one special talent from Colombia (Perea).

The website for AHOPE (African Hoop Opportunities Providing an Education) claims it is a non-profit organization that was founded in 2004. The mission is to provide deserving student athletes a seamless process of obtaining a student visa, transportation to the United States, making sure they are acclimated to their new environment and providing them with an opportunity to receive an outstanding education.

Also on the board of the AHOPE foundation is IU alum Alan Huss- head coach of La Lumiere HS (where Hanner Perea is enrolled). Nothing wrong with a pipeline from an AAU program to a university as long as money and illegal benefits aren't being used to induce the players to sign with IU. If IU alumni are providing the donations to this foundation (methinks they are) and the money is being used to bring talented players to the US where they end up under the control of two IU alumni and then commit to IU, we got issues...

It would be an abuse of non profit tax law to form a non-profit foundation and then just use it as a funnel to feed your favorite college basketball team (where you hide behind privacy laws to keep your donor list secret). The IRS should be interested in auditing that. The NCAA should also be interested in auditing that- getting an accounting of every donation to that foundation and matching those donations against IU boosters to make sure they don't match.

Our end of this deal was way overblown by the media. We self-reported. Someone leaked it to the media. Might have been IU to seal the deal on Perea- he committed to them. Might have been the NCAA to have the media do some of their leg work for them. Who knows? It was a PR black-eye for us but could work out to our benefit as they have snooped around and found a program that is doing things the right way.

Hopefully, Indiana is as well. I'd hate to see a once proud program like Indiana that has been battered by NCAA violations in recent years end up being set back again for NCAA violations. For all the accusations that their fans and media tools (like Dan Dakich) lobby at Scott Drew, Drew has a squeaky clean record. So does his dad. Indiana has had some issues in the past few years and Crean is probably feeling the pressure to win quickly. Hopefully he isn't taking shortcuts to win."

http://www.baylorfans.com/forums/showthread.php?t=204559&page=1

[ChicosBailBonds]

Been addressed multiple times about Ahope on Hoosiernation and other sites.  IU is in the NCAA's backyard...literally.