The War in Ukraine

[jesmu84]

Supporting direct conflict with Russia is psychotic, in my opinion.

[Hards Alumni]

I should have written they have called his views crazy.  I think you  called me psychotic and basically a warmonger  for believing we should be far more forceful  and not give crap about Putin's threats.  Kasparov tends to agree with me.  The fact of the matter is everything we and NATO countries have done thus far is reactive to Putin's actions and moronic statements.  But let's set this aside for a moment and talk about a potential scenario:

Assuming this drags out a month, or 2-3 weeks, and Putin decides to carpet bomb, gas people, or God forbid use some kind of nuclear weapon.  We know his short-term goal at this point has to be to subjugate the Ukrainian people in any way possible.  To me it's very plausible he will get more and more ruthless and kill as many civilians as he can.  Then what?  Do we and NATO just sit on our ass and say to ourselves....."well he didn't attack a NATO country?"  What if he bombs Lviv and the radiation hits Poland ?  Is that an attack on a NATO country?

I don't want to upset anyone here but I believe (and have believed since day 1) that stopping this now is a better option than waiting for this genocide to continue  and the potential horrific aftermath of him controlling  large parts of Ukraine  and staying in power.

  NATO has already said that radiation that blows into a NATO country constitutes an attack and will be grounds to invoke Article 5.

Still curious why you care about the relatively minor genocide in Ukraine more than the others being perpetrated worldwide.

[MuggsyB]

  NATO has already said that radiation that blows into a NATO country constitutes an attack and will be grounds to invoke Article 5.

Still curious why you care about the relatively minor genocide in Ukraine more than the others being perpetrated worldwide.

I'm a caring person.  I don'tl like minor genocides and the potential for destabilizing the world.   It's fine to disagree but I never have been a fan of appeasement when it comes to scumbags.  It upset me greatly as a child when we did nothing about Sierra Leone and Rwanda.  It's not only the geopolitical ramifications Hards, I don't like homicidal maniacs.

[TSmith34, Inc.]

Poland bulking up, purchasing Abrams main battle tanks. I thought this comparison between the M1A1 and the Russian T-72, which is still the bulk of the Russian tanks, was quite interesting.

[rocky_warrior]

Poland bulking up, purchasing Abrams main battle tanks. I thought this comparison between the M1A1 and the Russian T-72, which is still the bulk of the Russian tanks, was quite interesting.

Ok, that image does nothing other than prove that the M1 is bigger, and (not proven by the image) technically superior.  But tanks are a funny antiquated thing.  As proven by the Javelin missile - I don't know why any country would spend their money on a tank today.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

America in a nutshell...


Genocide in Bucha. Stories coming out that Mariupol may be much much worse. And on scoop, we're having another dick measuring contest for Biden and Trump.

Mugs and the Dentist keep bringing up August, but yeah it’s a “dick measuring contest.”  🙄

[rocky_warrior]

Mugs and the Dentist keep bringing up August, but yeah it’s a “dick measuring contest.”  🙄

Especially when Russia was stockpiling troops and armament close to the Ukraine border as of Apr 1, 2021.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

Especially when Russia was stockpiling troops and armament close to the Ukraine border as of Apr 1, 2021.

Right. The idea that Russia put this together in a couple months because of Afghanistan is simply shaping world events to fit one’s American political narrative. It’s baffling.

[MuggsyB]

Especially when Russia was stockpiling troops and armament close to the Ukraine border as of Apr 1, 2021.

Fine.  April 2021. 

[🏀]

I should have written they have called his views crazy.  I think you  called me psychotic and basically a warmonger  for believing we should be far more forceful  and not give crap about Putin's threats.  Kasparov tends to agree with me.  The fact of the matter is everything we and NATO countries have done thus far is reactive to Putin's actions and moronic statements.  But let's set this aside for a moment and talk about a potential scenario:

Assuming this drags out a month, or 2-3 weeks, and Putin decides to carpet bomb, gas people, or God forbid use some kind of nuclear weapon.  We know his short-term goal at this point has to be to subjugate the Ukrainian people in any way possible.  To me it's very plausible he will get more and more ruthless and kill as many civilians as he can.  Then what?  Do we and NATO just sit on our ass and say to ourselves....."well he didn't attack a NATO country?"  What if he bombs Lviv and the radiation hits Poland ?  Is that an attack on a NATO country?

I don't want to upset anyone here but I believe (and have believed since day 1) that stopping this now is a better option than waiting for this genocide to continue  and the potential horrific aftermath of him controlling  large parts of Ukraine  and staying in power. 

Your poor thoughts on global conflicts are just as tired as your space bar.

[TSmith34, Inc.]

Ok, that image does nothing other than prove that the M1 is bigger, and (not proven by the image) technically superior.  But tanks are a funny antiquated thing.  As proven by the Javelin missile - I don't know why any country would spend their money on a tank today.

Oh, totally agree that tanks are obsolete against advanced anti-weaponry...which Russia clearly doesn't possess. If the conflict should spill over to a NATO country, however, the M1A1 is so superior to anything the Russians have, including the T-80, it would be a one-sided battle.

[TSmith34, Inc.]

Fine.  April 2021.

And you think we should have done what?

[TSmith34, Inc.]

Short thread on taking out the railways to cut off resupply:

https://twitter.com/TrentTelenko/status/1511417219674161158

[forgetful]

He's more knowledgeable and obviously smarter than anyone here Hards.

Kasparov believes that the ancient civilizations, including the Sumerians, babylonians, ancient Egypt etc., all lived during the Middle Ages, and that modern historians have misdated those civilizations.

Brilliant Chess player, yes. Brilliant person...not so much.

As for him predicting this before everyone else. Pretty much the world has been predicting this for years, and for multiple presidents.

[rocky_warrior]

Oh, totally agree that tanks are obsolete against advanced anti-weaponry...which Russia clearly doesn't possess. If the conflict should spill over to a NATO country, however, the M1A1 is so superior to anything the Russians have, including the T-80, it would be a one-sided battle.

A1?  The *world* will never be in a tank battle again.  And it's never really been a tank battle, that's just something that makes militaries feel good. But the A1 is 1980s technology.  Weaponry to take out tanks is almost older than tanks themselves.  Tanks can't keep up. 

As I mentioned, the Javelin, a handled rocket can take out *any* modern tank from miles away.  And that's not even mentioning the *cheap* airborne options.  Watch this video, Javelins cost more than most Russian tanks, and we've been giving those away.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6COKC5ZU6gM

Poland and the Ukraine ain't buying any tanks, they have more obsolete versions of those from Russia than they could even use.

edit: anyone that thinks the Ukraine has been getting along "amazingly" without copious US militarily aid is smoking something
"Since February, the United States has provided the country with more than $2 billion in aid"
https://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/national-international/biden-admin-to-send-100m-in-javelin-missiles-to-ukraine/3199240/

[Hards Alumni]

A1?  The *world* will never be in a tank battle again.  And it's never really been a tank battle, that's just something that makes militaries feel good. But the A1 is 1980s technology.  Weaponry to take out tanks is almost older than tanks themselves.  Tanks can't keep up. 

As I mentioned, the Javelin, a handled rocket can take out *any* modern tank from miles away.  And that's not even mentioning the *cheap* airborne options.  Watch this video, Javelins cost more than most Russian tanks, and we've been giving those away.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6COKC5ZU6gM

Poland and the Ukraine ain't buying any tanks, they have more obsolete versions of those from Russia than they could even use.

edit: anyone that thinks the Ukraine has been getting along "amazingly" without copious US militarily aid is smoking something
"Since February, the United States has provided the country with more than $2 billion in aid"
https://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/national-international/biden-admin-to-send-100m-in-javelin-missiles-to-ukraine/3199240/

To expand on this, a Switchblade 600 costs around $70k.  An M1 Abarams costs $6.21 million. 

Tank warfare is dead, and the Russians weren't even doing it right.  Those tank crews were meant to intimidate and speed rush land grabs.

[TSmith34, Inc.]

A1?  The *world* will never be in a tank battle again.  And it's never really been a tank battle, that's just something that makes militaries feel good. But the A1 is 1980s technology.  Weaponry to take out tanks is almost older than tanks themselves.  Tanks can't keep up. 

As I mentioned, the Javelin, a handled rocket can take out *any* modern tank from miles away.  And that's not even mentioning the *cheap* airborne options.  Watch this video, Javelins cost more than most Russian tanks, and we've been giving those away.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6COKC5ZU6gM

Poland and the Ukraine ain't buying any tanks, they have more obsolete versions of those from Russia than they could even use.

edit: anyone that thinks the Ukraine has been getting along "amazingly" without copious US militarily aid is smoking something
"Since February, the United States has provided the country with more than $2 billion in aid"
https://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/national-international/biden-admin-to-send-100m-in-javelin-missiles-to-ukraine/3199240/

Sorry, should have said A2. My bad.

And while I agree with you that tanks are outdated against modern opponents, it appears that on the other side of NATO the only country that can qualify as modern is China.

And Poland disagrees with you about buying tanks:
https://www.defensenews.com/global/europe/2022/04/05/poland-signs-475-billion-abrams-tank-deal-as-russias-war-speeds-procurements/

[TSmith34, Inc.]

edit: anyone that thinks the Ukraine has been getting along "amazingly" without copious US militarily aid is smoking something
"Since February, the United States has provided the country with more than $2 billion in aid"
https://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/national-international/biden-admin-to-send-100m-in-javelin-missiles-to-ukraine/3199240/

Hey Muggsy, is February before August April?

[Hards Alumni]

Sorry, should have said A2. My bad.

And while I agree with you that tanks are outdated against modern opponents, it appears that on the other side of NATO the only country that can qualify as modern is China.

And Poland disagrees with you about buying tanks:
https://www.defensenews.com/global/europe/2022/04/05/poland-signs-475-billion-abrams-tank-deal-as-russias-war-speeds-procurements/

Ah yes, the Poles, the dudes who rode horses into battle against German tanks in WW2.

They buy them because we sell them.

[rocky_warrior]

And Poland disagrees with you about buying tanks:
https://www.defensenews.com/global/europe/2022/04/05/poland-signs-475-billion-abrams-tank-deal-as-russias-war-speeds-procurements/

Ah, well, ok.  I guess they make excellent (but expensive) road blocks.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

Interesting article on the lack of professionalism in the Russian army and how the lack of clear strategic objectives are creating an atmosphere where brutality like we are seeing can flourish.

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2022/04/bucha-ukraine-bodies-russian-military-crimes/629485/

[TSmith34, Inc.]

Ah yes, the Poles, the dudes who rode horses into battle against German tanks in WW2.

LOL, yes, I was thinking of that story as well.

T-72s are the modern equivalent of horse cavalry.

[jficke13]

A1?  The *world* will never be in a tank battle again.  And it's never really been a tank battle, that's just something that makes militaries feel good. But the A1 is 1980s technology.  Weaponry to take out tanks is almost older than tanks themselves.  Tanks can't keep up. 

As I mentioned, the Javelin, a handled rocket can take out *any* modern tank from miles away.  And that's not even mentioning the *cheap* airborne options.  Watch this video, Javelins cost more than most Russian tanks, and we've been giving those away.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6COKC5ZU6gM

Poland and the Ukraine ain't buying any tanks, they have more obsolete versions of those from Russia than they could even use.

edit: anyone that thinks the Ukraine has been getting along "amazingly" without copious US militarily aid is smoking something
"Since February, the United States has provided the country with more than $2 billion in aid"
https://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/national-international/biden-admin-to-send-100m-in-javelin-missiles-to-ukraine/3199240/

Battle of Kursk, perhaps?

[TSmith34, Inc.]

To expand on this, a Switchblade 600 costs around $70k.  An M1 Abarams costs $6.21 million. 

Tank warfare is dead, and the Russians weren't even doing it right.  Those tank crews were meant to intimidate and speed rush land grabs.

Ukraine: A killing ground for Russian armor. Are tanks now obsolete?
https://news.yahoo.com/ukraine-a-killing-ground-for-russian-armor-are-tanks-now-obsolete-164327834.html

...."This has led some experts to say that warfare has changed, and that tanks and armored personnel carriers are now obsolete. “They are too expensive & are easily destroyed with manifold light anti-tank weapons or drones,” Anders Aslund, an expert on Russia, Ukraine and Eastern Europe, wrote on Twitter.

...One former British Army officer, now a defense military analyst, said people should be careful to “avoid drawing the wrong conclusions” on tanks. “Russia's disastrous tactics have been a terrible advertisement for tanks,” Nicholas Drummond wrote on Twitter. “No artillery support. No infantry support. No air support,” he said, referring to images showing destroyed Russian tanks. “This is not how combined arms tactics work in an era of multi-domain operations.”

[MU Fan in Connecticut]

I love the 80's nostalgia.  In homage to Red Dawn, Ukrainians have been painting WOLVERINES on dead Russian tanks.