NFC North/NFL Thread 2016-17

[jsglow]

One question I think Vikings fans need to ponder.  Was last year the high water mark, especially because the Packers had a down year?  If one's answer is yes, then the trade might not have been the best idea.  Wouldn'tit have been bbetter to hang onto the picks and brought in a more cost effective stopgap? I'm old enough to remember the John Hadl mistake. Now admittedly this isn't nearly as expensive.

[4everwarriors]

Easy ta see watt you did der, hey?

[wadesworld]

One question I think Vikings fans need to ponder.  Was last year the high water mark, especially because the Packers had a down year?  If one's answer is yes, then the trade might not have been the best idea.  Wouldn'tit have been bbetter to hang onto the picks and brought in a more cost effective stopgap? I'm old enough to remember the John Hadl mistake. Now admittedly this isn't nearly as expensive.

Agreed.  I think that's the problem here.  Vikings fans think that last year was just the first step of many and that they're ready to win a Super Bowl.  In my opinion, last year was the year that all the stars aligned and they still only managed a Wild Card round loss.  With or without Teddy, in my opinion, the Vikings weren't a Super Bowl team.

[wadesworld]

Would that be the same Ryan Pace and John Fox that brought on Ray McDonald last year?
Yep, they're all about character players.

Realistically, there's no way they could have jettisoned Cutler if they wanted to. There's zero trade market for a mediocre QB with a $17 million cap hit, and his contract was structured so that while cutting him after this season is easy, cutting him any earlier would be terrible for the Bears cap situation. They're not keeping Cutler because he's a changed man. They're keeping him because they have no choice.

Exactly.

I have no idea where this idea that Cutler is a changed player came from.  He's not changed at all.  What has changed is that the players around him have gotten worse.  So he might look better because the talent around him isn't as good, so compared to them he's great, but that doesn't mean he's actually gotten better.

He's still bad.  He just has a coach who's on his second go around with him and understands that he needs to take the ball out of his hands as much as possible if he wants to win.  Unfortunately for him, even doing that, he doesn't have the hands to put the ball in to carry his team to a lot of wins.

[jsglow]

I'm forgetting when Culture's contract becomes more cap friendly but it's exactly correct that up until that point he couldn't be cut or traded without a huge impact.

[MerrittsMustache]

Exactly.

I have no idea where this idea that Cutler is a changed player came from.  He's not changed at all.  What has changed is that the players around him have gotten worse.  So he might look better because the talent around him isn't as good, so compared to them he's great, but that doesn't mean he's actually gotten better.

He's still bad.  He just has a coach who's on his second go around with him and understands that he needs to take the ball out of his hands as much as possible if he wants to win.  Unfortunately for him, even doing that, he doesn't have the hands to put the ball in to carry his team to a lot of wins.

Cutler hasn't changed. The media's narrative about him has changed. He still has poor body language, he still fails to produce up to his talent and he still isn't all that media friendly, but he's also still well-respected in the locker room, he still has inferior talent around him and he's still not nearly as bad as some people like to claim.

The change took place because people are realizing that Cutler didn't "get coordinators fired," he had awful coordinators. Cutler had a solid season last year because, despite the lack of play-makers on offense, he had a legit NFL coordinator for the first time as a Bear.

At the end of the day, Cutler is a slightly above average QB. He's not the type of QB who's going to raise the play of mediocre players and/or carry a team to a title. He can win the occasional game by himself and he can lose the occasional game by himself. None of that has changed. He is who he is. The only thing that has changed is the way he's viewed.

[GooooMarquette]

Ehhh... year 1 he went 2-8, coming in after McNabb started us off 1-5. AP got injured that year, only played in 12 games and had less than 1,000 yards on the year. He played with AP for six games, with two games of more than 60 yards rushing by AP... he went 2-4 with AP and lost two of those 4 by less than a TD.

Year 2 he went 10-6 with plenty of talent around him.

Year 3... 2-6-1... top receiver was flippin 30 year old Greg Jennings (804 yards) and Jerome Simpson (726).. no one else with 500+.. SS Hitman Harry injured and missed half the season..

I think the feeling is this year we've got more talent than Ponder year 1 or 3... he's not good, but he could manage staying out of the bottom 10 this year, IMO.

Wish we didn't have to give up as much as we did, but I'm OK with it. I think we have a better chance to win more games with Bradford than we do without. He's been a disappointment, but he gives some of us a little hope that he can show what some think he should have shown over the years but hasn't..

Anyway, see y'all in the playoffs. #SuperBowlSam

Ask yourself why the Rams and now Eagles were both happy to let Bradford go...and why no other team was going after him. 

Teddy couldn't get you to the SB, nor could Favre, Culpepper or Cunningham.  But Sam Bradford will?  Is Jesse Pinkman cooking again?

[Pakuni]

At the end of the day, Cutler is a slightly above average QB. He's not the type of QB who's going to raise the play of mediocre players and/or carry a team to a title. He can win the occasional game by himself and he can lose the occasional game by himself. None of that has changed. He is who he is. The only thing that has changed is the way he's viewed.

What convinces you he's above average, slightly or otherwise? Since becoming a Bear, his passer rating rank has been: 21st, 16th, 13th, 20th, 13th, 17th, 16th.
Average would be a kind assessment. Above average is a far too generous.

By the way, the constant yammering about him not having talent around him is far off the mark. He's had arguably the best all-around back in football lining up behind him for the past seven years.  He's had Pro Bowl-caliber receivers (Marshall, Jeffrey) and tight ends (Bennett, Olson). He's had mostly bad offensive line play, but the Bears have not failed to surround him with talent at the skill positions.

[Badgerhater]

Ask yourself why the Rams and now Eagles were both happy to let Bradford go...and why no other team was going after him. 

Teddy couldn't get you to the SB, nor could Favre, Culpepper or Cunningham.  But Sam Bradford will?  Is Jesse Pinkman cooking again?

Long-suffering Viking fan here.   The team's strength remains its defense.  Any reasonable expectation of Bridgewater was that he was going to be better this year due to another year under his belt and perhaps better receivers.  Every season is a crapshoot, but teams go in with certain expectations of either better or worse than last year.  We Viking fans until the injury that the team was set up for a better year than last.

On the flip side, losing Bridgewater is not like the Packers losing Rodgers.  The defense will still keep the team in many games this season and perhaps the offense will find a way to grind out a victory.  I predict 7-9 to 9-7 range -- do remember that the Vikings do get to play the Lions and Bears twice.

[DegenerateDish]

I'm excited for Cutler to be gone quite simply for the Cutler fatigue I have in talking about him.

[GGGG]

I'm excited for Cutler to be gone quite simply for the Cutler fatigue I have in talking about him.

The Derrick Wilson of Quarterbacks.

[mu03eng]

The Derrick Wilson of Quarterbacks.

[MerrittsMustache]

The Derrick Wilson of Quarterbacks.

Would that make wades the Ners of this thread?

[RJax55]

I'm excited for Cutler to be gone quite simply for the Cutler fatigue I have in talking about him.

Same here.

[Pakuni]

The Derrick Wilson of Quarterbacks.

Caleb Hanie has passing skills like John Elway.
Imagine what could have been if only he hadn't been nailed to the bench.

[naginiF]

Agreed.  I think that's the problem here.  Vikings fans think that last year was just the first step of many and that they're ready to win a Super Bowl.  In my opinion, last year was the year that all the stars aligned and they still only managed a Wild Card round loss.  With or without Teddy, in my opinion, the Vikings weren't a Super Bowl team.

They most definitely were a fringe SB team - in the conversation but still the 5th best team in the NFC, so a lot would have to go right .  After Teddy's injury they are still the 5th best team in the NFC but the gap between #1 and #5 grew a bit.  I know you said 'IMO' so i'm not necessarily calling you out, I'm using the bold to typify the 'Vike's are and were screwed regardless' or 'i don't like the Vikings so i refuse to see any good in their organization' vibe.

I averaged 7 NFL power rankings and the Vikings came in at #10.  5 of the 7 made reference to the injury and without the other two they are still #10 (GB around 5, Detroit 21, and Chicago 25 (none of the rankings specifically discussed Cutler's leadership qualities)).  I'm sure everyone on Scoop that has ever finished higher than 4th in their fantasy league will tell me that preseason polls are worthless........but as a leading indicator to how the industry pros view the rest of the Vikings roster and coaching staffs ability to game plan i'll take #10. 

[wadesworld]

They most definitely were a fringe SB team - in the conversation but still the 5th best team in the NFC, so a lot would have to go right .  After Teddy's injury they are still the 5th best team in the NFC but the gap between #1 and #5 grew a bit.  I know you said 'IMO' so i'm not necessarily calling you out, I'm using the bold to typify the 'Vike's are and were screwed regardless' or 'i don't like the Vikings so i refuse to see any good in their organization' vibe.

I averaged 7 NFL power rankings and the Vikings came in at #10.  5 of the 7 made reference to the injury and without the other two they are still #10 (GB around 5, Detroit 21, and Chicago 25 (none of the rankings specifically discussed Cutler's leadership qualities)).  I'm sure everyone on Scoop that has ever finished higher than 4th in their fantasy league will tell me that preseason polls are worthless........but as a leading indicator to how the industry pros view the rest of the Vikings roster and coaching staffs ability to game plan i'll take #10.

I guess it depends on how you look at the term "screwed."  With Teddy I would've expected them to make the Playoffs and maybe win a game.  Without Teddy I expect them to be on the bubble of making the Playoffs.  I don't think Teddy is a top or even 2nd tier quarterback, and I think the Vikings coaches know that and take the ball out of his hands (helps to have the child beating Peterson in the backfield).  I don't think this really changes the Vikings season significantly.

I personally don't think that going into a season there are 1/3 of the teams in the NFL who have a realistic chance to win a Super Bowl.  I think it's more like 5 or 6 teams tops that have a realistic chance to win a Super Bowl.  I don't think the Vikings would've been in that group, with or without Teddy.  Doesn't mean I think the Vikings suck.  Just means I think you need to be elite to win a Super Bowl, and I don't think the Vikings are elite, whether it's Teddy or Bradford leading the team.

I guess what I'm getting at is that just because a team went 11-5 and returns all its key pieces it doesn't mean they're automatically going to be 13-3 the next season.  It certainly can happen, but it's also nowhere close to a certainty, especially in football.  I'm of the belief that things went as well as they could've for the Vikings last year and that it's not overly likely to have all the cards fall your way two years in a row.

[Spotcheck Billy]

I guess what I'm getting at is that just because a team went 11-5 and returns all its key pieces it doesn't mean they're automatically going to be 13-3 the next season. 

You mean like the Lions going 10-6 then 4-12 (2011 & 2012) or the Lions going 11-5 then 7-9 the last 2 years?

I'm curious how the Bradford trade will affect the Vikings salary cap in the short term now that they are paying Bradford, Bridgewater, Hill and AP roughly $24 Million. Since Favre's retirement the Vikings have had budget QB's that were easy on the cap.

Bradford is due a $4 million payment and AP a $6 million payment in the 1st week of the next NFL year long before they know the timing of Bridgewater's return. They likely will have to assume Bradford being on the roster next year as well.

No other team is scheduled to have more than $28.41 million committed to its quarterback and running back in 2017
http://www.espn.com/blog/minnesota-vikings/post/_/id/20090/sam-bradford-adrian-peterson-pairing-means-tough-financial-decisions-await-vikings

[mu03eng]

Caleb Hanie has passing skills like John Elway.
Imagine what could have been if only he hadn't been nailed to the bench.

Did Hanie throw 30yd out routes routinely in high school?

[naginiF]

I guess it depends on how you look at the term "screwed."  With Teddy I would've expected them to make the Playoffs and maybe win a game.  Without Teddy I expect them to be on the bubble of making the Playoffs.  I don't think Teddy is a top or even 2nd tier quarterback, and I think the Vikings coaches know that and take the ball out of his hands (helps to have the child beating Peterson in the backfield).  I don't think this really changes the Vikings season significantly.

I personally don't think that going into a season there are 1/3 of the teams in the NFL who have a realistic chance to win a Super Bowl.  I think it's more like 5 or 6 teams tops that have a realistic chance to win a Super Bowl.  I don't think the Vikings would've been in that group, with or without Teddy.  Doesn't mean I think the Vikings suck.  Just means I think you need to be elite to win a Super Bowl, and I don't think the Vikings are elite, whether it's Teddy or Bradford leading the team.

I guess what I'm getting at is that just because a team went 11-5 and returns all its key pieces it doesn't mean they're automatically going to be 13-3 the next season.  It certainly can happen, but it's also nowhere close to a certainty, especially in football.  I'm of the belief that things went as well as they could've for the Vikings last year and that it's not overly likely to have all the cards fall your way two years in a row.

From a NFC North rival fans POV that's more than fair/sane point of view.  Heck, even from a Vike's fans POV i would have argued against 13-3.  I expect wild card and, depending on the health of the D, maybe a nice surprise in January.

Bonus topic:  Vikings draft and cut a guy named Willie Beavers and nobody comments on that? 

[DegenerateDish]

From a NFC North rival fans POV that's more than fair/sane point of view.  Heck, even from a Vike's fans POV i would have argued against 13-3.  I expect wild card and, depending on the health of the D, maybe a nice surprise in January.

Bonus topic:  Vikings draft and cut a guy named Willie Beavers and nobody comments on that?

By cracky?

[rocket surgeon]

Easy ta see watt you did der, hey?

Ponder what a SMOKIN wife he had, Eyn'a?

[🏀]

By cracky?

Love yer suit

[jsglow]

Here's the problem for the Vikings.  They're trying to incorporate a QB on the fly. That's going to cost them for at least the first half. On the flip side, Packers fans are in a tizzy because Ted planned and dumped his LG. Pretty big difference.  It'll be interesting to see if Minny can muster enough success to challenge for a WC slot. My gut says no. To do so they'll need to go 4-0 against the Bears/Lions.

[wadesworld]

Here's the problem for the Vikings.  They're trying to incorporate a QB on the fly. That's going to cost them for at least the first half. On the flip side, Packers fans are in a tizzy because Ted planned and dumped his LG. Pretty big difference.  It'll be interesting to see if Minny can muster enough success to challenge for a WC slot. My gut says no. To do so they'll need to go 4-0 against the Bears/Lions.

I'm curious to know what you think Ted had a plan for his LG. Lane Taylor is not a good plan in my opinion.

Minnesota will be okay. Absolute worst case is 7 wins and 10 if things go perfect. Most likely somewhere in the middle.