NFC North/NFL Thread 2016-17

[wadesworld]

Cutler isn't the problem. He's not a superstar but he's more than serviceable. We can all stop with this false sentiment now.

Maybe if he wins a 2nd career Playoff game I'll consider that he might not be a problem. Typically if your quarterback is good, you're competitive. Cutler's teams haven't been overly competitive.

[MU82]

Maybe if he wins a 2nd career Playoff game I'll consider that he might not be a problem. Typically if your quarterback is good, you're competitive. Cutler's teams haven't been overly competitive.

Agreed.

If one combines length of time as a starter, salary in relation to others at the position and success/failure on the field, one probably would conclude that Cutler is the biggest underperformer in the history of NFL quarterbacks.

[DegenerateDish]

Agreed.

If one combines length of time as a starter, salary in relation to others at the position and success/failure on the field, one probably would conclude that Cutler is the biggest underperformer in the history of NFL quarterbacks.

Salary, especially at the QB position, in regards to comparing to one's contemporaries, is absolutely meaningless when evaluating long term performance.

Cutler's career record is 68-68, and if one wanted to take salary into play, he is the 16th highest compensated QB in the league for 2016. By those metrics, he'd be average, which he probably is at this point.

[Vander Blue Man Group]

Maybe if he wins a 2nd career Playoff game I'll consider that he might not be a problem. Typically if your quarterback is good, you're competitive. Cutler's teams haven't been overly competitive.

Cutler is 50-47 as a starter with the Bears.  For the most part, the talent on the team during the last three years has been abysmal.  He's a guy you can win with if the talent level around him is good (two 10 win seasons and was 7-3 in another before getting hurt).  However he's not able to carry a team like the elite QBs.  He's not the problem - the team has just needed better talent. 

[jsglow]

With some decent coaching last year Cutler played pretty well. But the one thing he'll never be able to fix is his reputation as a poor leader.

[PGsHeroes32]

Giving up a first round draft pick and a third or fourth rounder for a one year rental who is made of glass and has been marginal at best since he started in the NFL? Seems shortsighted to me.

1 year rental? He was snagged for a reason no idea with teddy.

You realize that 1st round picks are pro bowlers 30% of time right?

This team is in win now mode. So you avoid improving QB(yes he's a major improvement and fits the offense perfect) to "hope" that a draft pick pans out?

You could draft a Randy Moss, but you also could get Troy Williamson.

The Vikings don't have a lot of holes that make a 1st round pick a must.

Sorry, but I'd much rather go for it all with this defense, AP at 31 and our young receiving core gelling then throw in the towel and hope that mid 1st round lineman becomes Jonathan Ogden.

[PGsHeroes32]

Exactly. I would have considered just the 4th rounder as a real win for the Eagles. Now there is a very good possibility they get a top 10 overall pick as well.

LOL at the Vikings being a top 10 pick.

They could start ponder and still finish with a record better than 10 teams.

[GooooMarquette]

LOL at the Vikings being a top 10 pick.

They could start ponder and still finish with a record better than 10 teams.

Ponder's career record as a starter with the Vikings was 14-21-1, with plenty of talent around him.

Just sayin'.....

[Jay Bee]

Ponder's career record as a starter with the Vikings was 14-21-1, with plenty of talent around him.

Just sayin'.....

Ehhh... year 1 he went 2-8, coming in after McNabb started us off 1-5. AP got injured that year, only played in 12 games and had less than 1,000 yards on the year. He played with AP for six games, with two games of more than 60 yards rushing by AP... he went 2-4 with AP and lost two of those 4 by less than a TD.

Year 2 he went 10-6 with plenty of talent around him.

Year 3... 2-6-1... top receiver was flippin 30 year old Greg Jennings (804 yards) and Jerome Simpson (726).. no one else with 500+.. SS Hitman Harry injured and missed half the season..

I think the feeling is this year we've got more talent than Ponder year 1 or 3... he's not good, but he could manage staying out of the bottom 10 this year, IMO.

Wish we didn't have to give up as much as we did, but I'm OK with it. I think we have a better chance to win more games with Bradford than we do without. He's been a disappointment, but he gives some of us a little hope that he can show what some think he should have shown over the years but hasn't..

Anyway, see y'all in the playoffs. #SuperBowlSam

[GGGG]

1 year rental? He was snagged for a reason no idea with teddy.

You realize that 1st round picks are pro bowlers 30% of time right?

This team is in win now mode. So you avoid improving QB(yes he's a major improvement and fits the offense perfect) to "hope" that a draft pick pans out?

You could draft a Randy Moss, but you also could get Troy Williamson.

The Vikings don't have a lot of holes that make a 1st round pick a must.

Sorry, but I'd much rather go for it all with this defense, AP at 31 and our young receiving core gelling then throw in the towel and hope that mid 1st round lineman becomes Jonathan Ogden.

Sam Bradford is an improvement at quarterback????

Again, is there some other Sam Bradford that I don't know about???

[GGGG]

Wish we didn't have to give up as much as we did, but I'm OK with it. I think we have a better chance to win more games with Bradford than we do without. He's been a disappointment, but he gives some of us a little hope that he can show what some think he should have shown over the years but hasn't..

That right there is a reasonable opinion. 

[MU82]

With some decent coaching last year Cutler played pretty well. But the one thing he'll never be able to fix is his reputation as a poor leader.

Cutler is one of those QBs who, as often as not, has tended to play just well enough to lose.

I remember the game the Bears had in Charlotte a couple years ago. The Bears were in control, led for most of the game, and Cutler was doing just fine. And then, like clockwork, Cutler threw an ill-advised pass that was picked off and, soon enough, the Panthers were on their way to victory.

How many times have we seen that happen over his entire career, including his three very frustrating years in Denver? For a half or more, you watch him and go, "Damn, this guy has TALENT!" And then, bingo-bango-bongo, there's the pick-6 or the fumbled snap and you remember why he has been able to win all of one playoff game his entire career.

In the Panthers game, Forte had a key fumble and Gould missed a FG he usually makes, so as usual Cutler had plenty of help in the loss.

But Cutler is the QB, the leader, the highest-paid guy on the team and the highest-profile guy. It's very difficult for a team to overcome that guy making two or three boneheaded mistakes in a game. Plus, he rips his own teammates, has terrible body language when facing adversity and makes facial expressions that convey, "It's not my fault. Blame them."

He is, in a word, a loser.

[cheebs09]

I think Cutler was a problem and limiting factor back in 2010 and when the Bears were a contender in the North. Now he's not high on the list of problems, but because he was high early in his career there, people tend to still blame him.

[brandx]

1 year rental? He was snagged for a reason no idea with teddy.

You realize that 1st round picks are pro bowlers 30% of time right?

This team is in win now mode. So you avoid improving QB(yes he's a major improvement and fits the offense perfect) to "hope" that a draft pick pans out?

You could draft a Randy Moss, but you also could get Troy Williamson.

The Vikings don't have a lot of holes that make a 1st round pick a must.

Sorry, but I'd much rather go for it all with this defense, AP at 31 and our young receiving core gelling then throw in the towel and hope that mid 1st round lineman becomes Jonathan Ogden.

I'm wondering why you think Bradford is an improvement over Hill.

Bradford has proven to be an awful QB every single year in the NFL. There is not one shred of evidence that he is worthy of being a starter. I guess I would need to be shown how he is better than Hill.

And they gave up a #1 and a #4 for this scrub. I put the over / under for wins at 7 for the Queens. If AP gets hurt, the number goes down to 3.5.

[DegenerateDish]

Cutler is one of those QBs who, as often as not, has tended to play just well enough to lose.

I remember the game the Bears had in Charlotte a couple years ago. The Bears were in control, led for most of the game, and Cutler was doing just fine. And then, like clockwork, Cutler threw an ill-advised pass that was picked off and, soon enough, the Panthers were on their way to victory.

How many times have we seen that happen over his entire career, including his three very frustrating years in Denver? For a half or more, you watch him and go, "Damn, this guy has TALENT!" And then, bingo-bango-bongo, there's the pick-6 or the fumbled snap and you remember why he has been able to win all of one playoff game his entire career.

In the Panthers game, Forte had a key fumble and Gould missed a FG he usually makes, so as usual Cutler had plenty of help in the loss.

But Cutler is the QB, the leader, the highest-paid guy on the team and the highest-profile guy. It's very difficult for a team to overcome that guy making two or three boneheaded mistakes in a game. Plus, he rips his own teammates, has terrible body language when facing adversity and makes facial expressions that convey, "It's not my fault. Blame them."

He is, in a word, a loser.

I'm not going to argue most of this, but on the sidelines, Cutler hasn't been like Rodgers or Brady yelling openly at teammates. Yes, he has indifferent body language, but he actually has gone out of his way in the media to always support his teammates (see last week with Kevin White).

[PGsHeroes32]

Sam Bradford is an improvement at quarterback????

Again, is there some other Sam Bradford that I don't know about???

Yes, do you watch much football? Forget the fact that he's at least been experienced starting compared to Hill(Bradfords back up in St Louis) but he fits the offense like a glove.

A team that went 11-5 asking Teddy to throw 14 TDs and 9 InTS is bringing in a guy wth the 6th lowest INT% of all time.

He completes passes, doesn't throw it to the other team and is working with his best supporting cast by a good mile.

It's actually pretty easy to see. He also had a receiving group that lead the NFL in drops last year.

Is Bradford a stud? Hell no. Is he worth getting on a cheap(for QB standards) deal to help a win now roster? Yes.

Unless you can gurantee me that with the 17th pick next year the Vikings will draft Aaron Rodgers clone.

[brandx]

I'm not going to argue most of this, but on the sidelines, Cutler hasn't been like Rodgers or Brady yelling openly at teammates. Yes, he has indifferent body language, but he actually has gone out of his way in the media to always support his teammates (see last week with Kevin White).

Cutler not yelling at teammates is not necessarily a good thing. The QB is the guy who should hold players on the offense accountable when they don't do their jobs.

Brady and Rodgers are openly supportive of teammates as well as critical when they need to be. I have never seen either guy jump on someone for a physical mistake. Mental errors? Absolutely.

[wadesworld]

Ehhh... year 1 he went 2-8, coming in after McNabb started us off 1-5. AP got injured that year, only played in 12 games and had less than 1,000 yards on the year. He played with AP for six games, with two games of more than 60 yards rushing by AP... he went 2-4 with AP and lost two of those 4 by less than a TD.

Year 2 he went 10-6 with plenty of talent around him.

Year 3... 2-6-1... top receiver was flippin 30 year old Greg Jennings (804 yards) and Jerome Simpson (726).. no one else with 500+.. SS Hitman Harry injured and missed half the season..

I think the feeling is this year we've got more talent than Ponder year 1 or 3... he's not good, but he could manage staying out of the bottom 10 this year, IMO.

Wish we didn't have to give up as much as we did, but I'm OK with it. I think we have a better chance to win more games with Bradford than we do without. He's been a disappointment, but he gives some of us a little hope that he can show what some think he should have shown over the years but hasn't..

Anyway, see y'all in the playoffs. #SuperBowlSam

Sounds like a whole lot of excuse making to me.  Guess that's what you have to fall back on when you never win anything.

[GGGG]

I think the body language thing is the dumbest criticism of Cutler.  If he were really a problem, they would have dumped him.  His biggest problem it seems to me isn't seeing all the defenders and therefore throwing it into coverage too often.

[GGGG]

Yes, do you watch much football? Forget the fact that he's at least been experienced starting compared to Hill(Bradfords back up in St Louis) but he fits the offense like a glove.

A team that went 11-5 asking Teddy to throw 14 TDs and 9 InTS is bringing in a guy wth the 6th lowest INT% of all time.

He completes passes, doesn't throw it to the other team and is working with his best supporting cast by a good mile.

It's actually pretty easy to see. He also had a receiving group that lead the NFL in drops last year.

Is Bradford a stud? Hell no. Is he worth getting on a cheap(for QB standards) deal to help a win now roster? Yes.

Unless you can gurantee me that with the 17th pick next year the Vikings will draft Aaron Rodgers clone.

I misread your post.  I thought you meant Bradford was an improvement over Bridgewater.

But he still sucks.  And it isn't just because of the team around him.  He just isn't very good.

[PGsHeroes32]

I misread your post.  I thought you meant Bradford was an improvement over Bridgewater.

But he still sucks.  And it isn't just because of the team around him.  He just isn't very good.

I definitely don't like him over Teddy. I think Teddy was ready for a huge jump this year and the setback is even worse.

But if Bradford plays like he did last year(even without considering better talent around him) this team will compete. It's all this offense requires.

It's basically the reason no "experts" as they are reffered to have really had an issue with this deal. And rumors are other teams wanted even more.

[DegenerateDish]

The theory that the Vikes opportunity cost for Bradford is a mid first round pick is misinformed. It negates that Bradford was available in March for fifty cents on the dollar. They paid $1.50 for him, when the market valued him right now at "maybe" 85 cents. It negates that they could have drafted someone this past draft as a backup, or gone out and signed someone like Hoyer this offseason. Every team should seriously consider what happens if their starter goes down for the season. Now, it's hard to find 32 capable starters, let alone backups. But if they disliked Hill that much, they should have addressed it earlier. The first rounder they gave up doesn't have to be a mid first round pick. It's critical capital that can be used to trade up/down to acquire more/better inexpensive players.

I can understand why the Vikes did it, but it's still a horrible trade.

[brandx]

A team that went 11-5 asking Teddy to throw 14 TDs and 9 InTS is bringing in a guy wth the 6th lowest INT% of all time.

Excellent job at cherry-picking. Let me try.

Bradford is 164th all-time in TD percentage - behind luminaries like Billie Joe Tolliver, Eric Hipple, Rex Grossman, Byron Leftwich, Bubby Brister, Gus Frerrotte, Kyle Orton, Josh McCownm Tim Couch, and of course Mark Sanchez.

Minny has a nice defense - but no defense is good enough to overcome this.

[PGsHeroes32]

The theory that the Vikes opportunity cost for Bradford is a mid first round pick is misinformed. It negates that Bradford was available in March for fifty cents on the dollar. They paid $1.50 for him, when the market valued him right now at "maybe" 85 cents. It negates that they could have drafted someone this past draft as a backup, or gone out and signed someone like Hoyer this offseason. Every team should seriously consider what happens if their starter goes down for the season. Now, it's hard to find 32 capable starters, let alone backups. But if they disliked Hill that much, they should have addressed it earlier. The first rounder they gave up doesn't have to be a mid first round pick. It's critical capital that can be used to trade up/down to acquire more/better inexpensive players.

I can understand why the Vikes did it, but it's still a horrible trade.

No it's not.

If the pick means that much to them(it doesn't)

They have so many picks stockpiled they could easy trade both 3rd next year for a early second round pick.

Now you got a early 2nd rounder and a late second rounder instead of a mid first and late second.

The vikes always make moves with picks, if they want to get somewhere they will make it happen.

Again, unless you can gurantee me that by tanking this year they can get Andrew Lucks doppleganger, it's a well thought risk.

[brandx]

I definitely don't like him over Teddy. I think Teddy was ready for a huge jump this year and the setback is even worse.

But if Bradford plays like he did last year(even without considering better talent around him) this team will compete. It's all this offense requires.

It's basically the reason no "experts" as they are reffered to have really had an issue with this deal. And rumors are other teams wanted even more.

If Sam plays like he did last year, the other 3 teams in the division will be overjoyed. Teddy's QB rating last year was much higher than Sam's best year.

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/some-nfl-execs-cant-believe-what-the-vikings-gave-up-for-sam-bradford/

Bradford has now been dumped twice by teams desperate for a QB. That says it all.