Renaming buildings and institutions

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

The most effective way to destroy people is to deny and obliterate their own understanding of their history.

    George Orwell

  Where do we stop.... Alexander the Great  Genghis Khan  The Pharaohs?
All men are flawed . we celebrate the good deeds they have accomplished

What state has these statues?  May not even need an angry mob, neglect may knock those over. 

[JWags85]

You're being kind to Winnie.
There's a few million dead Indians who may have stronger words for him than "far from perfect."

I don’t know if any leader will be viewed favorably if scrutinized for decisions made in extreme wartime. The Bengal famine was awful and pretty ghastly from a British decision making standpoint, and I’m not defending it, but people seem to frame that as pure cruelty instead of war crisis.

[cheebs09]

I think the forefathers would be horrified if they saw DC with the monuments. They didn’t want that, but rather something close to a plaque. I believe there’s a halt on adding anything to the National Mall.

I listened to the podcast “Presidential” from Washington Post. One episode dedicated to each president. It went into their flaws as well to give a nice picture of the whole person in my opinion.

[Pakuni]

I don’t know if any leader will be viewed favorably if scrutinized for decisions made in extreme wartime. The Bengal famine was awful and pretty ghastly from a British decision making standpoint, and I’m not defending it, but people seem to frame that as pure cruelty instead of war crisis.

I'm by no means an expert on the subject, and there seem to be varying points of view on it. But those on the Indian side of things certainly don't view it as merely the cruelties of war, but something at best the result of callous indifference and at worst intentional policies.
Churchill also was pretty outspoken in his white supremacy.

Regardless, I'm no advocate for tearing down Churchill statues. But I do think that glossing over the very bad acts of notable historical figures, or passing them off as merely "flaws and imperfections," fuels those who do want to tear down statues.

[brewcity77]

You clearly have not read Brew’s posts. He wants zero monuments because nobody is a hero in everyone’s eye. That sounds like nobody’s perfect or a saint to me.

I don't care about monuments. I do care about people who are reminded of trauma due to their presence.

I also feel that if there is a need to celebrate such things publicly, celebrating events makes more sense than individuals. I notice you prefer going after me for things I haven't said rather than addressing the things I actually say. It's interesting that you claim you aren't obsessed with monuments and yet you go back to the diatribe of people tearing them down. Meanwhile, you have yet to address the idea of monuments that celebrate events rather than just the individuals.

For instance, instead of a strict Washington monument, design a monument dedicated to crossing the Delaware, which could also include other contemporaries of Washington such as Henry Knox and James Monroe, focus on the importance of Trenton strategically, or that the crossing happened on Christmas Night. A monument to Selma could incorporate not just King but John Lewis and Ralph Bunche, the role it played in the Civil Rights Movement, and provide a richer context than just an individual statue.

I'm really trying to have this debate in good faith, but it's tough when you try to build this caricature of what you seem to think I am.

[Lennys Tap]

I don't care about monuments. I do care about people who are reminded of trauma due to their presence.

I also feel that if there is a need to celebrate such things publicly, celebrating events makes more sense than individuals. I notice you prefer going after me for things I haven't said rather than addressing the things I actually say. It's interesting that you claim you aren't obsessed with monuments and yet you go back to the diatribe of people tearing them down. Meanwhile, you have yet to address the idea of monuments that celebrate events rather than just the individuals.

For instance, instead of a strict Washington monument, design a monument dedicated to crossing the Delaware, which could also include other contemporaries of Washington such as Henry Knox and James Monroe, focus on the importance of Trenton strategically, or that the crossing happened on Christmas Night. A monument to Selma could incorporate not just King but John Lewis and Ralph Bunche, the role it played in the Civil Rights Movement, and provide a richer context than just an individual statue.

I'm really trying to have this debate in good faith, but it's tough when you try to build this caricature of what you seem to think I am.

Brew,

You say “I don’t care about monuments” - then go on a diatribe advocating that we do away with any that honor individuals - even the Washington Monument and the Lincoln Memorial.  That sounds to me like someone who cares about monuments a great deal.

I have nothing against monuments that commemorate events - the Marines raising the flag on Mt Suribachi, Iwo Jima is a personal favorite (my Dad fought there). If the powers that be had decided on “Washington Crossing The Delaware” instead of the Washington Monument I’d be totally OK with that. They didn’t, and I’m OK with that, too. The point is he deserves to be honored, and bowing to those on the fringes  who disagree would be a mistake IMO.

[brewcity77]

Brew,

You say “I don’t care about monuments” - then go on a diatribe advocating that we do away with any that honor individuals - even the Washington Monument and the Lincoln Memorial.  That sounds to me like someone who cares about monuments a great deal.

You are confusing indifference and a suggestion for a better way going forward with a desire to tear down. The presence or lack thereof of the Washington Monument, Lincoln Memorial, or other such monuments are a complete non-factor in what I care about.

[shoothoops]

This happened in Tennessee yesterday...not 50 or 100 years ago, yesterday. And it was a...competitive topic too:

https://twitter.com/TheTNHoller/status/1281273717742538761?s=19

[Billy Hoyle]

and here we go with Rupp Arena:

https://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/29525237/some-kentucky-faculty-want-name-arena-named-former-basketball-coach-adolph-rupp-changed

Do Black students really not attend games because the arena is named after Rupp?

"The Adolph Rupp name has come to stand for racism and exclusion in UK athletics and alienates Black students, fans, and attendees," the AAAS faculty wrote in the letter. "The rebuilding of the arena and the convention center offer an opportunity to change the name to a far more inclusive one, such as Wildcat Arena."

I don't know how accurate this article is but would it matter to those demanding Rupp's name be removed if it were accurate?
https://www.kyforward.com/dick-gabriel-let-me-interrupt-your-misperceptions-about-adolph-rupp-will-some-facts-on-the-race-issue/

[MU82]

Good. Why should an avowed racist have his name on a college basketball arena?

Put a plaque up in the university museum if you want to, with the unvarnished truth of the good and bad of him. Offer a course on who Rupp was -- I'd have gladly taken such a course, because it would have been interesting as hell.

But to honor a guy who literally hated Black people and discriminated against them at every turn? No. To me, it's a no-brainer.

[Billy Hoyle]

Good. Why should an avowed racist have his name on a college basketball arena?

Put a plaque up in the university museum if you want to, with the unvarnished truth of the good and bad of him. Offer a course on who Rupp was -- I'd have gladly taken such a course, because it would have been interesting as hell.

But to honor a guy who literally hated Black people and discriminated against them at every turn? No. To me, it's a no-brainer.

The article I posted has a different take from Disney villain Rupp from Glory Road.

[buckchuckler]

I don't know how accurate this article is but would it matter to those demanding Rupp's name be removed if it were accurate?
https://www.kyforward.com/dick-gabriel-let-me-interrupt-your-misperceptions-about-adolph-rupp-will-some-facts-on-the-race-issue/

This is interesting, and I didn't know any of it.  If nothing else it has given me the desire to do a bit more research for myself.  Thanks for sharing it.

[tower912]

Al thought he was racist.   Good enough for me.

[Herman Cain]

According to O'Donnell, Father Marquette was willing to compromise a little to blend the cultures.  If you already had two wives, for example, he was willing to look the other way.  He did say, however, that cannibalism was a non-starter.

What if one wife ate the other to get into conformity?

[MU82]

The article I posted has a different take from Disney villain Rupp from Glory Road.

I read the piece.

Poor Adolph Rupp. For decades and decades and decades, he wanted to recruit Black athletes, wanted to sign Black athletes, sought to help Black athletes, wanted to hire Black coaches, etc, etc, etc.

He was a true hero of Black folks, but he himself was the big victim because so many conspired against his heroic stands.