Author Topic: Buzz and TC (Read 11053 times)

Lennys Tap · « **on:** January 20, 2009, 04:24:26 PM »

I am a 1970 MU grad who has been an avid fan and supporter of the basketball program since 1966. I read these boards predominately for information (recruiting, Rosiak etc.), but I also enjoy the "commentary" provided by various posters. The last nine months has been dominated by the Chicos-Hayward fued. For anyone who has been living under a rock during that period, it's aka the "Crean-loving, Buzz-skeptics vs. the "Buzz-backing, Crean-haters".

I suspect that I am like most fans in that I fall into neither group. The extent of the credit due to TC for MU's resurgence (including the Big East and the AL) may be debateable, but to deny him any seems disengenuous. Conversely, giving Buzz "credit" for "not screwing up" a "stupid good" team seems like damning him with faint praise.

I don't want to re-hash the entire Crean era. His strengths and weaknesses have been debated ad infinitum, ad nauseam. In my view, he left the program in far better shape than he found it. For that he is owed our thanks. As for the "Buzz-skeptics", I agree that a coach cannot be judged in any historical context until he has one. I guess we have to wait until he coaches his own recruits to make an airtight case.

It seems ironic, though, that those who initially slammed Buzz as all recruiter, no coach are now withholding judgement to see how well he coaches "his own" players. Is this because they don't like the results of the "apple-to-apples" comparison readily available to them? Can anyone who has watched this team for the past four years be anything but astonished with Wes Matthews deveopment under Buzz and his staff? And how about the reclaimation project done on Dominic James, a player who steadily regressed under TC's tutelage. He may not surpass TC in the future, but that he is better at coaching Tom Crean's players than Tom Crean was is evident to anyone who has been paying attention.

This year's team is not without significant flaws, among them no center, no real power forward and not much athleticism over 6'2". I'm sure we'll be overpowered at times down the road. We may even be occasionally outcoached. But for this year at least we're much better off with Buzz at the helm. Odds are that goes for the future, too.

mu-rara · « **Reply #1 on:** January 20, 2009, 04:31:38 PM »

Well balanced post. May be where many of us fall in the Buzz/TC debate.

love your screen name. Went to Lennys very early on Saturday mornings with friends / roomates. This ended in 81/82 ? with a shooting of a patron ( not a student) Too bad, fun place.

nyg · « **Reply #2 on:** January 20, 2009, 04:34:44 PM »

Nice first post. Stirring the pot again though. Love the screen name, do not believe many posters actually had the opportunity to go to Lenny's while at MU. I for one spent a considerable amount of time at that god forsaken place and Lenny was, well lets say different type of breed, a character. Welcome.

Kramerica · « **Reply #3 on:** January 20, 2009, 04:37:07 PM »

Well that was a well thought out and balanced view on the whole debate. Its rare to see it on this board.

robmufan · « **Reply #4 on:** January 20, 2009, 04:44:19 PM »

For those of us ignorant folk that graduated in 2008 and have never heard of Lenny's tap, care to fill me in?

ChicosBailBonds · « **Reply #5 on:** January 20, 2009, 05:02:47 PM »

Lenny, a couple of things.

Good post, number one.

Second, it's not a feud nor has it been dominating. When the guy states things that are factually incorrect, I correct them. He's entitled to his own set of opinions, but not his own set of facts.

There was one part in your post that caught me as strange, however. You said something to the effect that people are changing the goalposts in their evaluations. I guess I'd like to know what you mean. I'm sure you are referencing me on this since you mentioned my name. But I can go back to the very earliest of posts about Buzz saying that we won't truly know until a few years down the line, when he isn't in the wonderful situation he's in.

Now, some people take that as a rip and I honestly don't know why. He's doing a fabulous job this year....thus far. But he's also in a fabulous position in terms of talent, etc. I don't think its wrong or unfair to say we won't truly know for a few years with his guys. I've said that from the earliest of days, but perhaps it was someone else you were referencing. I don't know, I'm just asking.

Peace

MUDPT · « **Reply #6 on:** January 20, 2009, 05:11:48 PM »

Anybody have theories on why James did "regress?" If you watch the high school highlights on YouTube, he has a smooth jump shot, consistent release point, however fades away a little. He looks better however than now. At the WV game they showed highlights of his game against Duke in the CBE classic championship. He was playing with so much confidence, that I think he has also lost.

classof70 · « **Reply #7 on:** January 20, 2009, 05:13:02 PM »

Well said. Not unexpected from a member of the class of '70!!

mviale · « **Reply #8 on:** January 20, 2009, 05:33:49 PM »

Quote from: MUDPT on January 20, 2009, 05:11:48 PM

Anybody have theories on why James did "regress?" If you watch the high school highlights on YouTube, he has a smooth jump shot, consistent release point, however fades away a little. He looks better however than now. At the WV game they showed highlights of his game against Duke in the CBE classic championship. He was playing with so much confidence, that I think he has also lost.

I think James experienced an ego blow when he tried out for the NBA. This year, I think he is over it and going all out for the team. I am sure Crean used it for motivation and it may have backfired.

Canned Goods n Ammo · « **Reply #9 on:** January 20, 2009, 06:17:37 PM »

Nice reasonable post.

And I agree with others here that it is probably what most of us are thinking.

I have to be honest and admit that I reply to Hayward far, far, too often and it leads into a spat.

Lennys Tap · « **Reply #10 on:** January 20, 2009, 08:05:22 PM »

robmufan-

Lenny's Tap was a bar on the corner of 18th and State. It was a neighborhood joint by day and a neighborhood/college hangout by night. Some might substitute bum for neighborhood as the area was less than affluent. It was owned and operated by one Leonard Bernstein, a terrific guy, who, among other things, introduced me to the joys and agonies of sport's wagering. His wife Sarah worked the tables in the evenings. She was always dressed like June Cleaver and was especially effective at keeping the locals from our dates. (Hard to believe dates would actually go in the place.) Lenny and Sarah retired and moved to Florida-I attended the "going away" party but I can't remember the year. I know it was long ago, but $3.84 a case for longneck Budweiser was quite the bargain.

Lennys Tap · « **Reply #11 on:** January 20, 2009, 08:59:09 PM »

Chicos,

If indeed you were always a neutral wait and see guy on Buzz I apologize. I just remember that many posters said in effect, "We know he can recuit, but can he coach?" They said it when he was hired and repeated it each time a blue chip prospect verballed and signed. Now that he has, to the satisfaction of any fair and impartial observer, proven that he can indeed coach, people want to qualify their endorsements. When you give what seem like backhanded compliments, saying he hasn't screwed up the unbelieveably great situation he was given, it rings hollow to me. Buzz has done much more than that. He has coached this team that was TC's better than TC ever did. Matthews has gone from dependable to terrific. James has recovered from his downward spiral and is a star again. Mcneal and Hayward have made great strides, at least meeting and likely exceeding their past improvement profiles. But you can't seem to let it go-everything is we'll see and so far. So will do it your way. So far, who do you think has done the better job deveoping Wes? Or Dominic? Or Jerel and Lazar? Or the whole team?

ChicosBailBonds · « **Reply #12 on:** January 20, 2009, 09:25:08 PM »

Quote from: Lennys Tap on January 20, 2009, 08:59:09 PM

Chicos,

If indeed you were always a neutral wait and see guy on Buzz I apologize. I just remember that many posters said in effect, "We know he can recuit, but can he coach?" They said it when he was hired and repeated it each time a blue chip prospect verballed and signed. Now that he has, to the satisfaction of any fair and impartial observer, proven that he can indeed coach, people want to qualify their endorsements. When you give what seem like backhanded compliments, saying he hasn't screwed up the unbelieveably great situation he was given, it rings hollow to me. Buzz has done much more than that. He has coached this team that was TC's better than TC ever did. Matthews has gone from dependable to terrific. James has recovered from his downward spiral and is a star again. Mcneal and Hayward have made great strides, at least meeting and likely exceeding their past improvement profiles. But you can't seem to let it go-everything is we'll see and so far. So will do it your way. So far, who do you think has done the better job deveoping Wes? Or Dominic? Or Jerel and Lazar? Or the whole team?

I will certainly put myself into the camp of "we know he can recruit but can he coach" club, I don't think you're wrong there. Fair enough. So far he has proven that he can coach with a group of players that are the most coachable group in a long time due to their experience, etc.. But as Kevin O'Neill told me one time, "give me Dean Smith's players and I'll be the best coach in the country too". Or something to that effect. In other words, coaches look like geniuses when they have really good, experienced players.

That's why I don't think we will really know for a few years when he has his own guys, he goes through the league a few times (other coaches adjust to Buzz), etc. So far, so good but always dangerous in my opinion to have a coronation so early. I offered some examples the other day where folks thought the second coming of Wooden was on their campus after the new guy took over the previous coach's great kids.

Some are there, I'm just not. I need a few years of data but I like what I see so far.

mviale · « **Reply #13 on:** January 20, 2009, 09:47:46 PM »

Was that the question?
But you can't seem to let it go-everything is we'll see and so far. So will do it your way. So far, who do you think has done the better job deveoping Wes? Or Dominic? Or Jerel and Lazar? Or the whole team?

MR.HAYWARD · « **Reply #14 on:** January 20, 2009, 10:02:58 PM »

Quote from: MUDPT on January 20, 2009, 05:11:48 PM

Anybody have theories on why James did "regress?" If you watch the high school highlights on YouTube, he has a smooth jump shot, consistent release point, however fades away a little. He looks better however than now. At the WV game they showed highlights of his game against Duke in the CBE classic championship. He was playing with so much confidence, that I think he has also lost.

OK let's debunk a myth. Dominic James has never been a "good jump shooter" I saw him numerous times in HS and AAU before attending MU. Yes he led the state in scoring but it was not in the Jimmy Chitwood model. He scored his points by driving the hole and using his....go figure.... amazing athleticism to get to the hole. Hes he hit jump shots, which is easier against HS players than it is D1 players, but he was never a "shooter".

Much of DJ's "problems" was due to miscasting. As a Freshman he was allowed to be a facilitator for Novak and Chapman and to a degree Jerel and Wes. Chapman and Novak's outstanding ability to spread the floor allowed him great opportinity to do what he did best...drive the ball. Go watch any game form that year...if a team zoned us about 2 or 3 3 balls later by Chapman or Novak and that was it for that game. Sophomore year we had no Novak or Chapman and Crean looked to make DJ the go to scorer calling many sets for DJ. Problem is they tried to make him a shooter and he was not, now sure it would have been great if he had developed in to dead eyeshooter but he wasnt pure and simple. Additionally we saw a ton of zone and often times the ball was in DJ's hands at the end of a shot clock...not a good thing for a non-shooter. It was OK when Diener was the point, he could shoot the lights out.

So much of DJ's struggles were trying to get him to do what he was not good at. Buzz has DJ and quite honestly the entire offense playing to the teams strenghts. I have screamed for 3 years that this team should play motion. I have said my thoughts on Buzz versus Crean as a coach, a recruiter and a person. But it has to be clear to anyone that on the offensive end we are a much much much better team using Buzz's offense than our offense of the previous 2 years. You can chalk it up to experience and playing with a sense of urgency as seniors but i think people know it is much more than that it is a significantly more effective system, then throw the experience and urgency and we are pretty darn hard to stop.

mviale · « **Reply #15 on:** January 20, 2009, 10:20:58 PM »

Lennys Tap · « **Reply #16 on:** January 20, 2009, 10:24:35 PM »

Thank you, mviale. It appears Chicos prefers to answer his own questions rather than mine. Guess he's taking the 5th.

Doctor V · « **Reply #17 on:** January 20, 2009, 10:28:13 PM »

did the simple presence of a well spoken and gramatically proper advocate of Mr Hayward's belief in Buzz instantly make Mr Hayward a better writer? I sure hope so cause i enjoyed it

mviale · « **Reply #18 on:** January 20, 2009, 10:28:55 PM »

He has a hard time with CHANGE.

WarriorHal · « **Reply #19 on:** January 20, 2009, 11:18:37 PM »

Lenny's Tap was probably my favorite M.U. area bar. Fun place with some colorful characters from the neighborhood--Smokey & Gordy. Best of all, a mug of Old Milwaukee on tap cost all of 15 cents in the mid to late 70s. I still have a mug from Lenny's, a souvenir from my last visit the night before graduation. I moved away and wasn't aware there was a shooting there. Guess the neighborhood got worse...too bad but not a surprise.

muarmy81 · « **Reply #20 on:** January 21, 2009, 05:54:47 AM »

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on January 20, 2009, 09:25:08 PM

In other words, coaches look like geniuses when they have really good, experienced players.

That's why I don't think we will really know for a few years when he has his own guys, he goes through the league a few times (other coaches adjust to Buzz), etc. So far, so good but always dangerous in my opinion to have a coronation so early. I offered some examples the other day where folks thought the second coming of Wooden was on their campus after the new guy took over the previous coach's great kids.

Some are there, I'm just not. I need a few years of data but I like what I see so far.

Chicos,
Not to pile on...but, that's the point. Buzz is able to coach these coachable players to a solid start and tangible improvement. Crean had this exact same team last year plus Ooze plus a better bench and had worse results. I hope this success and productivity can continue but not giving Buzz his due for the job he's done is not right. (Giving him back-handed compliments doesn't count)

Henry Sugar · « **Reply #21 on:** January 21, 2009, 07:26:57 AM »

Asking which coach has done the better job of developing the players is the wrong question. The answer is Crean. Each player has improved their game each year, and this year is just a continuation. If you really want, I could prove it statistically, but it'd be a lot of data for each player.

The question should be... which coach is utilizing the players best? Based on the season so far, the answer is Buzz. The analogy I use is how Mike Martz used to describe the old "Greatest Show on Turf". "Our 4th WR is better than your 4th DB". Based on the usage of Matthews, that's where I think MU is succeeding, so "our third guard is better than your third guard". The triangle and two that Huggins used last year wouldn't work against this team.

I actually think that Hayward is right in his assessment of it being a combination of the different system (coach), experience (coach/players), and urgency (players). Placing an overly important weight on either coach minimizes the contributions from both coaches. Even more importantly, it minimizes the players on the team.

As for Chicos...
Some people were willing to support Buzz before he was hired. That opinion is fine.
Some people wanted to see how well he did recruiting. That opinion is fine.
Some people wanted to see how well he recruited and coached. That opinion is fine. (For the record, I fall into this camp)
Some people want to see how well he can develop his own players. That opinion is also fine.

Finally, Mods, where are we with the "Tom Crean Uber-Thread"? Can we make that happen?

tower912 · « **Reply #22 on:** January 21, 2009, 07:39:23 AM »

And to follow up HS...
Some people think Tom Crean invented basketball.
Some people think Tom Crean is the devil incarnate.
Some people think he was a good coach and terrible recruiter.
Some people think he was a bad coach and a terrible recruiter.
Some people think he was a decent coach but a terrible person.
Some people think he was great until he betrayed the MU nation.

I think he was and is a good, not great coach. His in-game adjustments were weak. His recruiting of bigs was hampered by not having a decent plan B when inevitably missing out on the prized big he was after. He tirelessly promoted the program and himself in the process. He shepherded the team into the upper tier of the BEast, something that 5 years ago was nearly unimaginable. He graduated his players and ran a clean program. I think he took the misguided view that Indiana was a great leap forward on his career path and handled his departure very poorly. As a catholic, I believe in doing penance for your sins, and he is certainly doing his penance this year and probably next year, too, so I have forgiven him and moved on to seriously enjoy the team we have this year.

THEGYMBAR · « **Reply #23 on:** January 21, 2009, 08:21:50 AM »

We'll see if Buzz can coach in the next couple of years. We currently have 4 studs playing a ton of minutes. Senior leadership, especially talented senior leadership, makes anyone look good. I truthfully can say I like Buzz more everyday, but not because of his coaching. He seems like a good guy and I wish him the best.

Anyone that wants to 100% say Buzz is a D1 top coach is kidding himself. He inherited a very good team and better yet the top players have a chip on their shoulder. Again, I have watched MU a long time and this team has something different about them. It might be the Buzz factor or it might be a group of guys not wanting to lose.

Canned Goods n Ammo · « **Reply #24 on:** January 21, 2009, 08:30:36 AM »

What was Deane's record his first year with KO's players?

(quick wiki search)...

20-12 and a nice run in the NIT.

What does this prove?

Nothing. Mike was run out of town a few years later. Why? Primarily because he couldn't/wouldn't/didn't bring in enough talent.

I'm still cautiously optimistic about Buzz. I hope he ends up being the next Mark Few (who took over for Dan Monson and took the Gonzaga program to another level).

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Author Topic: Buzz and TC (Read 11053 times)

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