Red Flag...from the JS on April 21, 2009 - Ignored by me and others

[MR.HAYWARD]

when a commanders ship runs a he has control.  You cannot hold someone resposible when they have no control.  that is management and leadership 101.  yes commanders get fired as they should, just like rapists go to prison.


Your analogy would be better if you said the commander of the ship did not get fired but an an admiral on the beach 10,000 miles away did.   

Maybe Buzz should go to jail too

[MUSF]

when a commanders ship runs a he has control.  You cannot hold someone resposible when they have no control.  that is management and leadership 101.  yes commanders get fired as they should, just like rapists go to prison.


Your analogy would be better if you said the commander of the ship did not get fired but an an admiral on the beach 10,000 miles away did.   

Maybe Buzz should go to jail too

Wow, clearly your grasp of day to day operations on a ship is exceptional.

[MR.HAYWARD]

not saying the captain has to have the wheel in his hands but he does have control...if that definition of control is too much for you then i feel bad for you and you probably should not have any children as you will only be bringing the World's IQ average  to a lower level.

[GGGG]

What an Fing cop out!!!!  Hayward, it's thinking like this that has brought about a lot of serious problems in our society lately.  ZERO ACCOUNTABILITY!  Buzz is the head of this program and he has to accept responsibility for everything in the program to include what his kids do or fail to do.  When a commander's ship runs a ground in the Navy, he is automatically relieved, regardless of the circumstances.  I don't think Buzz should be fired or even disciplined in any way but he damn sure better take some ownership of this.  

Look, I believe this was an honest, one time mistake but Buzz should own his mistake, learn from it, and move forward.  I'm not looking to fry Buzz over this but if I were Fr. Wild, I would call him into my office and make sure he is doing everything he can to properly vet recruits, remind him about the importance of MUs reputation, then pat him on the butt and send him back to work.

My guess is that Buzz and Cottingham have already had this discussion...and that Cottingham and Fr. Wild have as well.

Hayward is completely off base here.  The basketball program is Buzz's responsibility.  When something goes wrong with it, it is a reflection on his leadership.  If Junior Cadougan rescued a kid from a burning building, he would make national news.  Buzz would be interviewed about what a great guy he is...we would be gushing on this Board about how wonderful it is that Buzz recruits such solid players.  And he would deserve credit for doing so.

So no, Buzz shouldn't go to jail.  But it does reflect poorly on the choices that he has made.

[Murffieus]

I don't think that JUCO's are inherenetly maladjusted people-----but I do think that there needs to be more
diligent due diligence involved. In most cases there is a reason why they are in a JUCO in the first place---some rehab themselves as students and citizens-----others don't.

I get together with a group of local former athletes and coach/teachers from the Milwaukee area every Tuesday night for a few beers/drinks. I asked one of the group who had taught & coached Clark what he thought of him-----I can't print his answer.

A few phone calls by our coaching staff would have prevented this embarrassment.

[MarquetteDano]

I don't think that JUCO's are inherenetly maladjusted people-----but I do think that there needs to be more
diligent due diligence involved. In most cases there is a reason why they are in a JUCO in the first place---some rehab themselves as students and citizens-----others don't.

I get together with a group of local former athletes and coach/teachers from the Milwaukee area every Tuesday night for a few beers/drinks. I asked one of the group who had taught & coached Clark what he thought of him-----I can't print his answer.

A few phone calls by our coaching staff would have prevented this embarrassment.

Have to partially agree with Murf on this one.  I would like to think it would not have taken just a few phone calls (that we were that lazy to investigate) but it appears due diligence was not performed correctly here.  I hope this is not a trend.

[chapman]

Have to partially agree with Murf on this one.  I would like to think it would not have taken just a few phone calls (that we were that lazy to investigate) but it appears due diligence was not performed correctly here.  I hope this is not a trend.

In a way I'm not sure this is the problem.  It seems to me they weren't completely oblivious to Clark's situation.  I think it's less of an issue of doing their homework and it really just seems that Buzz went a little overboard with trying to give kids a chance.  Sometimes you have to stop trying to play miracle worker and take the kid at face value.

[mugrad99]

Sometimes, no matter how talented a kid is, you just need to steer clear. Our program is too good to ruin it with the actions of one kid. 

I have a lot of friends in the prosecutors office here in Indy. Most of them said this is probably not a first time offense. Just the first time the girl pressed charges. Get a girl drunk, then have your way with her. The next morning the girl is too embarrassed to pursue it.

[StillAWarrior]

Sometimes, no matter how talented a kid is, you just need to steer clear. Our program is too good to ruin it with the actions of one kid. 

I have a lot of friends in the prosecutors office here in Indy. Most of them said this is probably not a first time offense. Just the first time the girl pressed charges. Get a girl drunk, then have your way with her. The next morning the girl is too embarrassed to pursue it.

A couple of things:

I'm not here to defend this kid, but this is ridiculous.  Your friends in the prosecutor's office have absolutely no idea about this.  In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if they never heard of Clark before.  Look, what the kid did is bad enough without having to pile on with this other garbage.  Maybe he's done it before, maybe not.  Maybe there are people posting on this board who have gotten girls drunk and had their way with them.  Who the hell knows.  Not me, and not your friends in the prosecutor's office.  I think this is just a ridiculous comment.

Also, I'd be willing to bet that Buzz did make a lot of phone calls about Clark.  I strongly suspect that there's very little (if anything) in Clark's past that has been discussed here that Buzz wasn't aware of.  I'm guessing that Buzz talked to the HS coaches, the prep school coaches and talked to the JC coaches.  After all that, Buzz made a judgment that Clark had matured and would be a good addition.  I personally think that Buzz made an error in judgment, but given how thorough Buzz is rumored to be, I really doubt it was because he failed to make phone calls.

[Chili]

I don't think that JUCO's are inherenetly maladjusted people-----but I do think that there needs to be more
diligent due diligence involved. In most cases there is a reason why they are in a JUCO in the first place---some rehab themselves as students and citizens-----others don't.

I get together with a group of local former athletes and coach/teachers from the Milwaukee area every Tuesday night for a few beers/drinks. I asked one of the group who had taught & coached Clark what he thought of him-----I can't print his answer.

A few phone calls by our coaching staff would have prevented this embarrassment.

Murph is a 100% correct here. His former coaches in Milwaukee do not have good things to say about him. Buzz made the mistake of associating Marquette with someone of extremely questionable character which he needs to be held responsible for. He did not have to offer him a scholarship and never should have, but he did. And now Marquette is receiving the negative publicity. If Buzz never offers him the scholarship, yes Clark still commits a horrific crime, but the term Marquette recruit are never printed in any newspaper.

It is not Buzz's fault the Clark did what he did, but it Buzz's fault that he associated Marquette with Clark. You CANNOT dispute any way you want to spin it.

[mugrad99]

It's pretty common knowledge that studies have shown that in a majority of cases by the time sex offenders are caught, it's not their first time.

[StillAWarrior]

It's pretty common knowledge that studies have shown that in a majority of cases by the time sex offenders are caught, it's not their first time.

So you're citing to "common knowledge" of undefined "studies?"  That's what you're going with?

Even so, there are studies that say all sorts of things.  My point is simple:  I think it's ridiculous for people who know absolutely nothing about this specific case or this particular person to say it's probably not his first offense.  As I said, what we know he did was bad enough, I don't understand what it adds to the conversation to come in and say, "some people who never heard of him before tell me it's probably not his first offense."

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

So you're citing to "common knowledge" of undefined "studies?"  That's what you're going with?

Even so, there are studies that say all sorts of things.  My point is simple:  I think it's ridiculous for people who know absolutely nothing about this specific case or this particular person to say it's probably not his first offense.  As I said, what we know he did was bad enough, I don't understand what it adds to the conversation to come in and say, "some people who never heard of him before tell me it's probably not his first offense."

+1

The kid is not going to suit up for MU, and the law is going to deal with him.

No need to examine it anymore than that.

[MR.HAYWARD]

Its common knowledge that lawyers are corrupt scumbags that steal from little old ladies.  its common knowledge that the only good lawyer is a dead lawyer.  i mean common we all know that. 

Indee law you are the idiot of the day  maybe the year

[mugrad99]

What part of my post is not true? From the facts alleged in the affidavit, he's a freaking rapist and deserves to be put in jail for a long time.

Do you have a daughter?

[StillAWarrior]

What part of my post is not true? From the facts alleged in the affidavit, he's a freaking rapist and deserves to be put in jail for a long time.

Do you have a daughter?

I don't think your post was directed at me, but I will answer both questions.  The easier one first:  yes, I have three daughters.  I don't think that there was anything in your post that was not true (unless, perhaps "most" of your friends in the Indy prosecutor's office didn't really say that).  My issue wasn't that you said anything untrue.  My issue is that your friends in the prosecutor's office have absolutely no idea whatsoever if it is true that this isn't Clark's first offense.

Based upon what I read in the arrest affidavit, I'm perfectly willing to agree that Clark is a scumbag that I'd never want anywhere near my daughters.  I'm not willing to go along with a statement that he's probably done this before.

Also, I would agree that Hayward's post was way over the top.  First, because I'm a lawyer.  Second, because I don't think you're an idiot.  I just thought we had plenty of evidence that Clark is a scumbag without speculating on prior offenses.

[mugrad99]

This probably is not the forum to talk about sex offenders and prior acts. Just a touchy subject . My niece (my wife's sister's child) was raped by her step dad. During the trial evidence came out where he had done this to about a dozen other women/girls.  Prosecutors there as well told me that when a sex offender is caught, you can bet it's not their first time.

Back to Clark, hopefully we never hear from him again.