MU Layoffs thread

[LloydMooresLegs]

I saw that, too. Not sure how a 12 year old can provide meaningful insight on the elementary school experience.

True (but age 14), but some grade schools do it. 
Intended point only was to confirm Northside's credentials -- maybe it's the tallest midget award, but it is "rated" as one of the top 5 high schools in Illinois.

[LloydMooresLegs]

University of Illinois at Chicago faculty on strike today and tomorrow.  Tenured faculty and non-tenured joining together in a move to protest/raise awareness of the low wages of part-time faculty.

It is interesting how the schools more and more are using part-time and non-tenured positions to address the market (they can hire and fire those positions as market demands dictate--demand for nano-tech courses is up, hire three new instructors in the field, and lay off or cut back the time of three humanities instructors).  Reserve the tenured positions for the research beasts. 

My simple understanding from a report I heard on the radio this morning is that the tenured faculty has joined in part because the non-tenured are doing less and less "extra" work (admnistrative, committtees and even office hours), and so a greater burden for that administrative work and (gasp) helping students has fallen to the tenured faculty.

[Spotcheck Billy]

Layoffs suck.  I've had to layoff 100+ ees...look them in the eye and tell them. And none of these were my decision.  It came, ultimately, from shareholders.

I can tell you first hand that most laid off employees end up better off.  Not all do, but many end up in a better place.

Trust me on this.

So you're the evil bastard! 


As one that has twice been laid off due to plant closures, it ain't all roses as you imply. A ton of stress especially if the job searching is fruitless after 6 months of pounding the pavement looking knowing that the little bit of unemployment you were collecting is about to run out (and taxable nowadays).

[ChicosBailBonds]

Exactly. How they need to cut employees with the price of tuition is absolutely beyond me. Disheartening.

Not sure I understand your comment.  Usually its a simple matter of economics.  It is always disheartening to lay someone off...never easy.  What is at MU's disposal to cut costs?  They can't cut tenured professors, if they cut programs that means job losses. I suppose the could take down the basketball budget a few million, that would get people here upset.  Etc, etc.

Tough choices.  I hope these folks land on their feet.

[MU Fan in Connecticut]

Layoffs suck.  I've had to layoff 100+ ees...look them in the eye and tell them. And none of these were my decision.  It came, ultimately, from shareholders.

I can tell you first hand that most laid off employees end up better off.  Not all do, but many end up in a better place.

Trust me on this.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
So you're the evil bastard! 

As one that has twice been laid off due to plant closures, it ain't all roses as you imply. A ton of stress especially if the job searching is fruitless after 6 months of pounding the pavement looking knowing that the little bit of unemployment you were collecting is about to run out (and taxable nowadays).

Was laid off for almost 7 months in 2009.  A simple victim of LIFO.  Thank God UI was more than 6 months then.  The stress of barely anything to even apply for the first 3 months was very hard.  While full-time job searching I made sure to squeeze in a lot of work on my house simply to stay sane.  I attended weekly job network meetings which didn't lead to a job, but was very helpful psychologically as it was more like "Unemployment Anonymous".  Being in a room of very talented people who were in the same boat was eye opening.  I finally landed a contract job to get back to work which worked out great as it was a cool job and I almost made the same salary in 7 months of work as I did in my laid off job.  Two weeks after it ended, it lead to another contract job where the company ended up hiring me full-time 3 months later.  I got screwed on vacation time, but I'm way ahead salary wise and it's nice place to work and there is opportunity for advancement.  I'm only doing a slice of the work I was previously and I'm missing out on some the really fun job duties and occasional travel that I enjoyed, but I can't really complain.
Overall I'm probably better off, but what I miss isn't a negative - just different.  As a weird side note and very strangely, I was contacted by a recruiter just this week inquiring if I'd be interested in returning to the place I was laid off from 5 years ago to take over for a guy who is retiring.

[forgetful]

Sadly your right; but they could freeze a tenured professors salary and benefits to keep costs down. If the tenured professor does not like it he can look else where. I am sure that will not happen and that is why the cost of education is so high.

This is already routinely done.  

I'll also note at some Universities, raises had been frozen, and now that they are unfrozen barely meet inflation.  That has already led to some very good professors deciding enough is enough and moving to industry or other opportunities for more lucrative pay.

[GGGG]

Augustine wrote that one does not pray to God for what one needs for God already knows. Rather, we ought to pray to increase our desire for God so that we are better prepared to receive His grace.

In Augustine’s construct, prayer should permeate every aspect of one’s life and our desire for God should be constant if one is living in His grace. To pray for something specific, especially in a time of need, was much too mercenary and cynical in Augustine’s view.

In Summa Theologica, Aquinas makes clear that one ought not to pray for anything specific, definitive, or even temporal. He reiterates Augustine’s position that to do so is vulgar since the flow of events is God’s Plan and it is improper to ask that the Divine Plan be altered. Rather, one should ask for the fulfillment of God’s Plan.

But as I said earlier, I really do not care if people want to ask God for whatever they desire. I agree that Augustine and Aquinas got it right and that God already knows if a place kicker is going to make the field goal to win the game. And no matter how much we pray He isn’t going to make the guy miss.

A Lutheran theo professor I had at MU said that he started every day with "Dear God, I believe.  Help me with my unbelief."

In this case though, I think jsglow isn't asking us to pray for his friend to get another job, but for peace of mind as he goes through a turbulent point in his life.  I have never really prayed for material items, but mostly "please be with me as I go through this" kind of stuff.

[Coleman]

A Lutheran theo professor I had at MU said that he started every day with "Dear God, I believe.  Help me with my unbelief."

In this case though, I think jsglow isn't asking us to pray for his friend to get another job, but for peace of mind as he goes through a turbulent point in his life.  I have never really prayed for material items, but mostly "please be with me as I go through this" kind of stuff.

+1

[mu03eng]

IMO, this wouldn't even be newsworthy unless the cuts were being made to high-dollar staffers.  If I had to guess, I would say endowment & fundraising will be hit the hardest... money management can be easily outsourced and the University has already "laid off" two high-profile fundraisers who weren't getting the job done.

I would be surprised if MU was laying off custodians and ass't librarians.

My understanding is they laid off fund raising and alumni outreach employees.

[mu03eng]

University of Illinois at Chicago faculty on strike today and tomorrow.  Tenured faculty and non-tenured joining together in a move to protest/raise awareness of the low wages of part-time faculty.

It is interesting how the schools more and more are using part-time and non-tenured positions to address the market (they can hire and fire those positions as market demands dictate--demand for nano-tech courses is up, hire three new instructors in the field, and lay off or cut back the time of three humanities instructors).  Reserve the tenured positions for the research beasts. 

My simple understanding from a report I heard on the radio this morning is that the tenured faculty has joined in part because the non-tenured are doing less and less "extra" work (admnistrative, committtees and even office hours), and so a greater burden for that administrative work and (gasp) helping students has fallen to the tenured faculty.

MU business has a significant amount of associate professors, essentially part time instructors who get $5000 for a 3 credit semester class (undergrad or grad).  Eliminating some of those positions would be an even smaller drop in the bucket than the staff positions they eliminated.  The fat so to speak is in the tenure professors which is nearly untouchable.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Guys, my stock portfolio was down 1.4% today. That's a lot of dough.

Also my steak at lunch.. ordered medium and it was too pink. I was running low on time so I ate it as is.

Been a rough day.

Prayers 4 me. thx!

I know a stock that has beaten the S&P 6 straight years....up large again today....nice earnings report today.....again.   

[mu-rara]

If they would get rid of tenure you can immediately expect one of two possible outcomes.

1.  Faculty salary nearly doubles and tuition rises substantially.  Your average professor could go out into industry (notably exceptions being pure liberal arts categories) and make double what they make in academia.  Tenure is one of the perks that makes it enticing.  If that is gone, talented professors say screw it.

2.  Universities replace professors with adjuncts, who largely are not qualified to teach the classes.  Tuition stays the same but the quality of the education plummets. 

Those calling for the end of tenure have zero understanding of how universities work and what is causing increases in tuition.  The absolute last cause of tuition increases is faculty pay and tenure.

Professors, generally are not risk takers.  That is why they gravitate to academia and tenure.  Low risk, safe.  Many would not survive in industry.

Adjuncts with good,  practical experience can be very good teachers.  The most interesting professors I had in the COB had practical experience.

Salary is the largest expense, by a long distance, for every institution.  C'mon man, the last cause.  Are you a university professor?

[Coleman]

Professors, generally are not risk takers.  That is why they gravitate to academia and tenure.  Low risk, safe.  Many would not survive in industry.

Adjuncts with good,  practical experience can be very good teachers.  The most interesting professors I had in the COB had practical experience.

Salary is the largest expense, by a long distance, for every institution.  C'mon man, the last cause.  Are you a university professor?

I'm not sure that's an accurate portrayal of the PhD candidates and PhDs I know. Once you are tenured, sure it is safe. But the path to getting there is full of risks and it is very cuthroat. I have been in both academia and industry. I will tell you right now I prefer industry. It is much more regular, and to be honest low pressure. You do your job, and you do it well, get a good salary and have relative job security. If you get laid off, you find another job in your field. It might take a few months, but its predictable. You can predict the paycheck you are going to get.

In order to just get a full time job in academia, you have to work crazy hours doing research, full time school, AND get published. You piece together part time jobs, while doing this, essentially working 80 hours a week between classes, research and employment. And your first full time job pays peanuts. And then in order to get tenure to make a middle class wage, you have to be a rock star in your field and get lots of publications. It is very very competitive. You also have to navigate through tons of political bullsh!t to get anywhere.

In short, academia is different from private sector industry, but I wouldn't say its safer.

[mu03eng]

Adjuncts with good,  practical experience can be very good teachers.  The most interesting professors I had in the COB had practical experience.

Completely agree with this, best prof I had as part of MU MBA was a full time venture capitalist teaching entrepreneurial finance...awesome class and learned a ton.

CoE ungrad on the other had, I had a ton of long term profs that just didn't get it when it came to the real world.  In fact, for senior design one of our assignments was a risk assessment, which was suppose to be a 5 by 5.  I'd done some for my internship and my dad as a defense contractor program manager had done them for years.  So in talking with the SD team, we agreed we had a lot of risks so we wanted to get some good resolution to take action on it.  We decided to do a 10 by 10 and got some very actionable information that was helpful on the project.  Turned in our risk assessment assignment.....we lost points because we didn't do the assigned 5 by 5!!!!

I think turn over between academia and industry would be a very good things especially in the CoB and CoE.

[Benny B]

Completely agree with this, best prof I had as part of MU MBA was a full time venture capitalist teaching entrepreneurial finance...awesome class and learned a ton.

Mark Zellmer's class, right?

I couldn't agree more.  One of the most valuable courses I took as well, grad or undergrad... minimal theory but a boatload of application.  The textbook was nothing more than a compilation of various HBS & TBird case studies.  To this day, there are two things in my office that have been here every day since I took this job... an inscribed clock given to me by my grandmother and my three-ring binder from Zellmer's class.

We all knew this guy was being paid next-to-nothing but were pretty certain he didn't care one bit.  He was teaching for the joy of teaching... too bad guys like this are so few and far between.

[Goose]

I love everything about Marquette and both my wife's family and my family have had over twenty family members attend MU. I currently have two kids at MU and am paying closer to retail than wholesale and honestly it breaks my heart everytime I write a check to the school. Have a great level of pride having my two youngest going where they wanted to be, but I question my sanity in paying what I believe is way too much.

All private schools have a need to evaluate their costs and why they need the tuition they do. Have stated here many times that I believe these schools got greedy. Over the past couple decades easy re-fi on homes and grandparents helping out allowed kids to go places they normally could not afford. In addition, student loans were too easy and people stopped questioning the increases.

[GGGG]

My understanding is they laid off fund raising and alumni outreach employees.

Wouldn't surprise me.  That field is going through a real challenge right now.  Especially alumni relations...back in the day, the attitude was "as long as we get a some alumni together, the event is good because it gets people to think positively about their alma mater."  However without a more objective pay-back than that, such programming can be hard to justify.

[mu03eng]

Mark Zellmer's class, right?

I couldn't agree more.  One of the most valuable courses I took as well, grad or undergrad... minimal theory but a boatload of application.  The textbook was nothing more than a compilation of various HBS & TBird case studies.  To this day, there are two things in my office that have been here every day since I took this job... an inscribed clock given to me by my grandmother and my three-ring binder from Zellmer's class.

We all knew this guy was being paid next-to-nothing but were pretty certain he didn't care one bit.  He was teaching for the joy of teaching... too bad guys like this are so few and far between.

Yep, Mark is simply fantastic.  He has three main strengths:  passion for the subject, ability to articulate his experience to others, and a huge network of industry experts he could bring in to talk to the class.  Two of those things can be taught, the last though has to be developed and I think thats very difficult in academia.  I actually bailed on a work trip to make sure I didn't miss one of his lecture/guess speakers.  Even the end of the year project was great because it was a real world analysis of an actual company.

With a couple of exceptions I've learned way more from associate professors than I have PhD profs, especially at the grad level.

[GGGG]

I love everything about Marquette and both my wife's family and my family have had over twenty family members attend MU. I currently have two kids at MU and am paying closer to retail than wholesale and honestly it breaks my heart everytime I write a check to the school. Have a great level of pride having my two youngest going where they wanted to be, but I question my sanity in paying what I believe is way too much.

All private schools have a need to evaluate their costs and why they need the tuition they do. Have stated here many times that I believe these schools got greedy. Over the past couple decades easy re-fi on homes and grandparents helping out allowed kids to go places they normally could not afford. In addition, student loans were too easy and people stopped questioning the increases.

Again, it's important to look not at the listed tuition, but what the average student pays.  As I have mentioned, I have a former co-worker who is a consultant at this.  Private schools hire her firm.  They figure out how many students they need and the average price per student.  She then builds a model for list tuition, and how to discount from that list given certain GPA and test scores.  She said the model is remarkably easy to implement - but of course how the model is built is proprietary. 

I agree with you Goose on the refis and the greediness.  However student and parent loans sill make borrowing for college very easy.  Too easy?  I don't know...there are pluses and minuses. 

But containing costs is a problem.  You have to be competitive salary and benefit wise.  And you need the infrastructure as well.

[jsglow]

In this case though, I think jsglow isn't asking us to pray for his friend to get another job, but for peace of mind as he goes through a turbulent point in his life.  I have never really prayed for material items, but mostly "please be with me as I go through this" kind of stuff.

Yes. Thank you.

[GGGG]

One other thing....the vast majority of any college's annual costs are its employees.  Salary and benefits.

Everytime you look at containing costs, you run into a myriad of other problems.  More students in a classroom.  Less student services.  IT shortages.  Less competitive wages for competitive positions.  (And it MU wants to up its national profile, try to be non-competitive salary wise.  And do so while dumping tenure?  No chance.)

And unlike in previous generations, there isn't a cadre of priests to take over administrative and faculty positions at little cost.

It is a big problem that public as well as private education is dealing with.  And some schools (like MU) are in much better shape than others.  I would like to see in another generations if some of the smaller privates can make it...Silver Lake...Mount Mary...Viterbo...  Those are the ones that are in even rougher shape.

[ChicosBailBonds]

If they would get rid of tenure you can immediately expect one of two possible outcomes.

1.  Faculty salary nearly doubles and tuition rises substantially.  Your average professor could go out into industry (notably exceptions being pure liberal arts categories) and make double what they make in academia.  Tenure is one of the perks that makes it enticing.  If that is gone, talented professors say screw it.

2.  Universities replace professors with adjuncts, who largely are not qualified to teach the classes.  Tuition stays the same but the quality of the education plummets.  

Those calling for the end of tenure have zero understanding of how universities work and what is causing increases in tuition.  The absolute last cause of tuition increases is faculty pay and tenure.

I don't necessarily disagree with #2, I have a lot of issues with #1, but you have caveated it with certain fields so you get a pass.

As for it being the "LAST CAUSE OF TUITION increases".  Do not agree with this...I agree it is not the main driver of late.    G & A is always going to be a major reason.  However, to your point it is not the primary driver or even in the top 5 drivers of costs, but to say it is the ABSOLUTE LAST CAUSE is not true either.

"“Faculty salaries were not the leading cause of rising college tuitions during the past decade,” the report says. “Increased benefits costs, nonfaculty positions added elsewhere on campus, declines in state and institutional subsidies, and other factors all played a role.”


Budget cuts from states \ feds have an impact for a state school which requires them to cut costs or raise revenue (or both).  At private schools, the drop in fund raising and endowments has caused some schools to raise tuition to keep their net revenue in line.  See graph below from Wa. Post.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Was laid off for almost 7 months in 2009.  A simple victim of LIFO.  

LIFO...nothing infuriates me more.  You shouldn't be a victim of that, no one should.  Meritocracy be damned, of course.  Grrrrr

[Coleman]

I will say, MU plows a TON of money into student activity staff, residence life, AMU staff, etc. etc.

I know there are good people who work in those positions, so its not an indictment of them personally, but do we really need that many people in these types of positions? Were there that many 40 years ago?

Do we really need to pay people to plan programming for bingo at the Annex on weekends? Or to have a full-time hall director in each dorm?

Students can find their own things to do. MU is an academic institution. Money should be spent on academics. Athletics pays for itself. Activities that aren't self-funded should be the first to go.

[ZiggysFryBoy]

one point, associate profs are tenure track positions.  assistant profs usually aren't.  adjuncts (Mr. Collins of biz stats fame) aren't (though that dude is way too awesome for a PhD.)