Freeh Report

[Blue Horseshoe]

The Freeh report has been made public today. It is NOT a criminal investigation. I am more interested what the Feds turn up with actual subpoena power and legal ramifications.

I don't ever want the MU community to ever put itself in a position where a single individual wields this much power.

http://cbschicago.files.wordpress.com/2012/07/report_final_071212.pdf

[TallTitan34]

The Big Ten Network didn't report the story because they said they "are not a news network".

[LAZER]

Death Penalty.  This program needs to go away for a little bit.

[tower912]

I don't think the death penalty is going to happen based on economics.    The B1G (and for that matter the BCS)will beg, wheedle and cajole to keep their 12 team league intact.   If PSU goes on the death penalty, the ripple effect throught he BCS would be monstrous.   I DO think that the Paternos and PSU are going to end up paying out 8 to 9 figures in compensation to the victims.   

[RJax55]

The Big Ten Network didn't report the story because they said they "are not a news network".

Well, they're technically right... The BTN is a propaganda network.

[Blue Horseshoe]

I don't think the death penalty is going to happen based on economics.    The B1G (and for that matter the BCS)will beg, wheedle and cajole to keep their 12 team league intact.   If PSU goes on the death penalty, the ripple effect throught he BCS would be monstrous.   I DO think that the Paternos and PSU are going to end up paying out 8 to 9 figures in compensation to the victims.   

Unfortunately, there is so much money at stake I also fear that the NCAA will do nothing. I don't care how much it costs PSU, the conference, or the NCAA, I want death penalty. Stuff like this makes me hate the NCAA even more.

[robmufan]

Unfortunately, there is so much money at stake I also fear that the NCAA will do nothing. I don't care how much it costs PSU, the conference, or the NCAA, I want death penalty. Stuff like this makes me hate the NCAA even more.

If they do nothing to punish PSU for what they did...aren't they just keeping the "sweeping under the rug" trend going in college sports?

Also, I believe the same people that ran this report have been contracted to look into the Saints issues.  That would be an interesting read also (not 100% sure i heard this correctly though)

[nyg]

If they do nothing to punish PSU for what they did...aren't they just keeping the "sweeping under the rug" trend going in college sports?

Also, I believe the same people that ran this report have been contracted to look into the Saints issues.  That would be an interesting read also (not 100% sure i heard this correctly though)

You are correct.  His firm, which has two partners who were former federal district court judges (Sullivan and Sporkin) has been contracted to conduct the Saints investigation. 

[TallTitan34]

If this doesn't earn the death penalty what does?

[jsglow]

I'm going to take the opposite approach.  While the investigation will continue, and Penn State officials may even end up in jail, and while the university should essentially consider itself bankrupt, I believe that the NCAA may choose to inoculate itself by dealing out the harshest penalty it can muster.

We all know that the 'privileged athletic program' is a problem.  We've even had to deal with it at MU.  The NCAA has to think about long term damage control.  It needs maximum distance from the horrific crimes at Penn State University.  

[GGGG]

If this doesn't earn the death penalty what does?

The NCAA can only dole out punishment that follows its bylaws...now there can be "lack of institutional control" here in play, but that would be a pretty broad interpretation of that bylaw.  I mean, if they are going to give out the death penalty for this kind of stuff, that is a slippery slope and we dont know where that ends. 

I mean, Marquette was in violation of the Cleary Act right?  Clearly its not at the same level as PSU, but where is that line then drawn?

I think the NCAA is doing its due dilligence and is going to wait to see what they put in place in the area of compliance.  But since they have no history of violation, and didn't play a single event with an ineligible player or engaged in no illegal recruiting practices, I think the NCAA would be viewed by many as overstepping its reach.

[🏀]

The NCAA can only dole out punishment that follows its bylaws...now there can be "lack of institutional control" here in play, but that would be a pretty broad interpretation of that bylaw.  I mean, if they are going to give out the death penalty for this kind of stuff, that is a slippery slope and we dont know where that ends. 

I mean, Marquette was in violation of the Cleary Act right?  Clearly its not at the same level as PSU, but where is that line then drawn?

I think the NCAA is doing its due dilligence and is going to wait to see what they put in place in the area of compliance.  But since they have no history of violation, and didn't play a single event with an ineligible player or engaged in no illegal recruiting practices, I think the NCAA would be viewed by many as overstepping its reach.

Agreed. The NCAA will have a tough time trying to sell lack of institutional control.

The Big Ten might be more interested than the NCAA, but I doubt either are interested.

[MUBurrow]

The NCAA can only dole out punishment that follows its bylaws...now there can be "lack of institutional control" here in play, but that would be a pretty broad interpretation of that bylaw.  I mean, if they are going to give out the death penalty for this kind of stuff, that is a slippery slope and we dont know where that ends. 

I mean, Marquette was in violation of the Cleary Act right?  Clearly its not at the same level as PSU, but where is that line then drawn?

The lack of institutional control is an interesting issue - Penalties for "lack of institutional control" assume that institutional control is a good thing, and that it cures the ills of individual bad actors. But here, the institution had complete control from the janitors to the Prez -- and it was morally repugnant in every way. So while you're right that lack of institutional control certainly doesn't parse onto the PSU situation very well, this situation would seem to be the most deserving of the death penalty inasmuch as the program has proven itself unfit for civilian life, let alone "the privilege" of NCAA sports.

[Benny B]

This is a moment for the NCAA to define itself.  Many people think the NCAA is a joke... the eqivalent of a mentally challenged aunt who is being led around by the spoiled, undisciplined brats she's supposed to be chaperoning.

Granted, a former coach playing games in the shower with underage boys is a criminal act, not an NCAA violation.  But maybe there's an NCAA ethics code or something applicable to the institution whereby conspiracy to cover up forty-some felonies is a violation.

Nevertheless, if the NCAA wants to show that it has any shred of character and/or decency, it has to do something.  Exactly what it can do is my question... and if there's any ambiguity, PSU's legal team will bury the NCAA.

[GGGG]

Benny, in my heart I want the NCAA to give them the death penalty for two years.

In my head, I worry about "ethics violations" as a basis for doing so.  Where does this end?

[Chicago_inferiority_complexes]

If this doesn't earn the death penalty what does?

Was going to ask this. As long as there are no recruiting violations, etc., involved -- if a coach and his players developed a meth production and distribution network, using school facilities, would it incur any NCAA sanction?

[LAZER]

Was going to ask this. As long as there are no recruiting violations, etc., involved -- if a coach and his players developed a meth production and distribution network, using school facilities, would it incur any NCAA sanction?

I think actually think that's a pretty fair comparison.  I think people are hesitatant of the death penalty in this case because this is out of the typical scope of paying players, recruiting infractions, etc.  This has been the worst display of abuse of power and lack of judgment by several administrative officials ever. All these guys should be held to a much higher stander than college athletes and a punishment to fit the crime should be the death penalty.  An educational institution placed a football team before the law, the safety of children, morals, ethics, common decency, you name it...that tells me this program should go away for a little

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Benny, in my heart I want the NCAA to give them the death penalty for two years.

In my head, I worry about "ethics violations" as a basis for doing so.  Where does this end?

I agree with you.

I just hope the NCAA decides to "nut up" and deal with the fall-out/consequences of the death penalty. Just prepare for it, and deal with it. It will be litigious, cost them money, and will be a pain in the ass. But, in the long run, it's probably best.

The irony is: This whole situation was created because Penn State refused to step up and do the right thing, even though it would have been litigious, painful, cost them money, PR, etc.

Penn State shouldn't receive the death penalty because they had a child molester, Penn State should get the death penalty because they enabled a child molester because it was easier than the alternative.

The NCAA has a chance to show that they can do the right thing, even when it's difficult.

[Benny B]

Benny, in my heart I want the NCAA to give them the death penalty for two years.

In my head, I worry about "ethics violations" as a basis for doing so.  Where does this end?

Agreed... IMO, this is an Penn State "institutional" issue, not an Penn State "athletics" or "competition" issue.  If the NCAA is going to start monitoring what the institution does instead of what the athletic department and athletes do, then where do you draw the line?  Does the NCAA shut down BYU because LDS isn't doing enough to control polygamy and forced marriage in fundamentalist sects?  Should they shut down Va Tech because they "can't control" gun violence on their campus?

[Spotcheck Billy]

Agreed... IMO, this is an Penn State "institutional" issue, not an Penn State "athletics" or "competition" issue.  If the NCAA is going to start monitoring what the institution does instead of what the athletic department and athletes do, then where do you draw the line?  Does the NCAA shut down BYU because LDS isn't doing enough to control polygamy and forced marriage in fundamentalist sects?  Should they shut down Va Tech because they "can't control" gun violence on their campus?

wouldn't that be kind of like a post-season ban if you have a native American mascot?

[MUBurrow]

Agreed... IMO, this is an Penn State "institutional" issue, not an Penn State "athletics" or "competition" issue.  If the NCAA is going to start monitoring what the institution does instead of what the athletic department and athletes do, then where do you draw the line?  Does the NCAA shut down BYU because LDS isn't doing enough to control polygamy and forced marriage in fundamentalist sects?  Should they shut down Va Tech because they "can't control" gun violence on their campus?

This is why the only good slippery slope argument is that all slippery slope arguments are slippery slopes. BYU should get shut down if Bronco Mendenhall and the athletic department, at the consent of the Prez, were complicit in one of their coaches procuring as many sister wives as he could but keeping it quiet for the good of the program. Va Tech should get shut down if they have a top-down cover up of Frank Beamer partaking in Fast and Furious behavior while he lectures schoolchildren about the danger of guns. Those would be comparable to PSU.

Ultimately, I think the comparisons to ND, MU, and other schools with reporting problems in their relationship with actual police are much better comparisons. In those cases (to varying degrees - I don't want this to turn into a pissing match about that) you have institutional problems, flirting with illegality, about the way University infrastructure reports crime to the actual authorities. I think the dividing line between these cases and PSU is similar to a "knowing" or "reckless" standard in criminal law. Everyone at PSU knew that Sandusky raping young boys was illegal, and by extension knew of their duties once aware of that accusation. In the reporting cases though, an investigation would almost certainly show that the entire program, from coaching staff to AD to Office Presidency was not aware of the strict reporting procedures or their accompanying (il?)legal status. To me, thats the difference and its not an overly ambiguous one - criminal law employs it constantly.

[Benny B]

wouldn't that be kind of like a post-season ban if you have a native American mascot?

Well played.  Find one administrator at Penn State on the record saying he/she supports this ban, and the NCAA has themselves a damn good case.

[Benny B]

This is why the only good slippery slope argument is that all slippery slope arguments are slippery slopes. BYU should get shut down if Bronco Mendenhall and the athletic department, at the consent of the Prez, were complicit in one of their coaches procuring as many sister wives as he could but keeping it quiet for the good of the program. Va Tech should get shut down if they have a top-down cover up of Frank Beamer partaking in Fast and Furious behavior while he lectures schoolchildren about the danger of guns. Those would be comparable to PSU.

Ultimately, I think the comparisons to ND, MU, and other schools with reporting problems in their relationship with actual police are much better comparisons. In those cases (to varying degrees - I don't want this to turn into a pissing match about that) you have institutional problems, flirting with illegality, about the way University infrastructure reports crime to the actual authorities. I think the dividing line between these cases and PSU is similar to a "knowing" or "reckless" standard in criminal law. Everyone at PSU knew that Sandusky raping young boys was illegal, and by extension knew of their duties once aware of that accusation. In the reporting cases though, an investigation would almost certainly show that the entire program, from coaching staff to AD to Office Presidency was not aware of the strict reporting procedures or their accompanying (il?)legal status. To me, thats the difference and its not an overly ambiguous one - criminal law employs it constantly.

PSU/Sandusky is nothing near comparability to MU:

1) There was ambiguity regarding the non-reporting part of WI law that dealt with "reasonable suspicion" that a crime occurred.  Given what has been disclosed publicly about the MU incident(s), it is plausible that the officer in charge did not believe that a crime took place and therefore there was no obligation to report anything.  PSU officials didn't just "reasonably suspect" something, in the email strings they basically acknowledged something criminal was going on.

2) DPS repeatedly gave the victim(s) an opportunity to file a report with MPD; if I recall correctly, they encouraged it on at least one occasion.  Nobody at PSU encouraged anyone to go to the police, and in fact, stood in the way on multiple occasions.

MU was a matter of bad policy at best, negligence at worst; regardless, there was no malicious intent on the part of DPS or the university.  You can criticize the process, the disciplinary hearings or the university's response, but at least MU did something.

PSU, on the other hand, appears to be a full-blown conspiracy where people deliberately and continually placed children in danger in order to keep this matter from seeing the light of day.

[GGGG]

I don't think anyone is seriously comparing the two.  But the point is, if everyone wants PSU to get the death penalty...and everyone believe that MU should get no sanctions....there is a line that has to be drawn somewhere.  Warrior07 asked this question:

"As long as there are no recruiting violations, etc., involved -- if a coach and his players developed a meth production and distribution network, using school facilities, would it incur any NCAA sanction?"

Good question....

What if the above occurred, but the meth lab was located in the coaches house?  What if it was an assistant coach?

Generally, the overuse of ambiguous statements to justify taking action never really ends well because of the subjectivity involved.  Now, all laws have some subjectivity....and being over-literal can bring trouble as well.  But I would be really worried about this precedent.

[MUBurrow]

PSU/Sandusky is nothing near comparability to MU:

Sultan alludes to this above, but I wasn't saying I think they all belong grouped together by severity, etc, but merely that when discussing NCAA's role in the transgressions of member schools, MU & ND are more of a species to PSU than the hypotheticals you had posted. That species being the institutional consensus and handling of a certain subject in a way that is contrary to law, yet does not involve an on-field competitive advantage.