MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: 1SE on February 13, 2022, 02:26:24 AM
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Unfortunate game last night. Butlers opening 75% 3pt shooting was insane, also all the late clock 3s when we were trying to get back into it. Most of those were well contested, sometimes it just happens.
Mostly a fluke, but what is going on w Kur? I mean he's never been a world beater, but he's been contributing less and less and last night was awful. 0s across the statline (except 1 PF). But not only that he just often looked lost - either getting stuck under the basket and out of position for rebound or unexplicably double teaming some guy 35 feet from the basket and leaving his man wide open ar the basket.
I hope he gets it figured out because we definitely need him to be a positive contributor if we want a happy ending to this season.
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I wondered the same thing. He took no shots and made no rebounds in 13 minutes. But there’s more. All the forwards not named Lewis took six shots. Seems wrong somehow.
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Kur gets all of his points off the pick and roll and dump offs. Opponents scouting reports are on to him.
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Kur gets all of his points off the pick and roll and dump offs. Opponents scouting reports are on to him.
It's not really the 0 pts (although that's not great) - it's the 0 boards and 0 blocks - plus he was WWAAAYY out of position multiple times.
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The rebounds are a recurring issue. I think Butler was playing some 5 out, pulling him away from the hoop.
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He only does one thing well. And he’s not even doing that well lately.
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The "he's the next McIlvaine-ish" vibe (or even "next Bill Russell-ish" vibe) surrounding KK after his better games always seemed overly enthusiastic. He's a role player who, on his best nights, is good at his role -- which makes him similar to our many other role players.
But because he can only do one thing at a high level, when that one thing isn't happening Shaka has recognized that KK simply can't be on the court.
One of the worst "ugh" moments yesterday (in a game filled with many): Midway through the first half, with Butler up 26-11 on 6-for-8 shooting from 3, Harris finally missed one. But Golden -- who isn't exactly Sanogo or Watson -- did a swim move to easily beat Kuath for an offensive board, hit the layup, was hacked by KK and made the FT. About a minute later, KK was on the bench and he didn't play again for the rest of the half.
That KK has managed 1 or 0 rebounds in four of our last six games (and is averaging 1.5 boards) is almost unfathomable. I know that there are convincing defensive-scheme-related arguments as to why he's not a big-time rebounder, but he's a fairly athletic 6-10 guy with good timing; you'd think he'd accidentally get 3 or 4 rebounds in the amount of PT he gets (and indeed he did average 6.2 rebs during the first 5 games of our winning streak).
I nonetheless am glad he's on the team. Seems like a great guy, and he definitely has contributed to many of our wins. That stretch against Seton Hall where he was blocking everything is one of the more memorable scenes from our winning streak. I think Shaka has done a good job allocating PT to him and Oso based on situations and to how each is playing.
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I said this yesterday in the post-game tower thread, but I don't think Oso should have been on the floor at the end. He was getting abused on the pick-n-roll constantly...either by forcing him to make the switch or back attacking him off the dribble. They needed stops and just couldn't get one.
Not that they should have put Kur in, but I think going small with Lewis on Golden would have been a better option. Bonus is that you can get another shooter out there too. Greg, Kam, Tyler, Daryl, Justin.
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What's the adjustment or counter to teams taking away the roll to the rim?
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It is all part of teams taking Kolek's passing away. The defenders are staying home on him and the big defender is rolling with Kur/Osa to take away the lob. Other defenders are staying home to take away passing angles. Betting that Kolek's defender and a big in the area can stop Kolek at the rim.
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Kurt is what he is. A 3ppg 5th year senior/grad student. He should be in the game near the end in close games as a rim protector.
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It is all part of teams taking Kolek's passing away. The defenders are staying home on him and the big defender is rolling with Kur/Osa to take away the lob. Other defenders are staying home to take away passing angles. Betting that Kolek's defender and a big in the area can stop Kolek at the rim.
Yes, that goes a long way toward explaining why KK hasn't been an offensive threat at all in recent games. Doesn't explain the defensive and rebounding woes.
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Bad hands.
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We're simply not as good when Kur isn't playing his A game.
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Yes. But we can say that about any of the top 8.
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(http://lovelace-media.imgix.net/uploads/224/5db421a0-9389-0132-4428-0ebc4eccb42f.gif?w=320)
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Kur is just not any good. He’s a 5th yr Sr and is NOT getting it done.
How the HECK can u be 6’11” and athletic and get barely one rebound a game ?? I mean ... come ON !!
He blocks a few shots. Done. Can’t score. Bad hands ...
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Hard to understand how both are centers that can not even try a 15 footer, what do they work on in Practice?
Theo was the same but he had a left and right hook at least. Like playing 4 on 5 all the time!
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And if Stevie’s in its 3 on 5
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Oso's FT form is pretty good. I wouldn't be surprised if he's got a 15-footer in his game, and I'd like to see it next season.
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Coaches largely don’t want great shooters shooting 15 footers. Not sure you want your centers shooting those shots.
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Coaches largely don’t want great shooters shooting 15 footers. Not sure you want your centers shooting those shots.
Nope, highly inefficient. Both centers have that little 6' push shot down, but you don't want them shooting beyond 10' (or less) unless they can make a three.
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Marquettes offense seems to have gotten much better when it started taking “less efficient” shots though.
Justin Lewis and Darryl Morsell mid range jumpers are some of the best shot choices for this team.
Step out 15-20 foot jumper from Oso, with the other solid skills he possesses- like able ball handling/dribbling and court vision/passing- seems like it would be a very welcome addition to the offense.
Of course that assumes he can make the shot decently enough.
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I think a year and 20 lbs from now, we will see a far more complete offensive game from Oso.
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Coaches largely don’t want great shooters shooting 15 footers. Not sure you want your centers shooting those shots.
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Do you ever watch the Badgers? Or if he does not want your shooters to shoot, how about a move or two other than a dunk.
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I think a year and 20 lbs from now, we will see a far more complete offensive game from Oso.
Extra 20 pounds are going to help his offensive game? Not sure, it should help on D has he as soft as they come right now.
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Oso has made a couple of moves off the dribble. Not quite strong enough to finish yet.
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Coaches largely don’t want great shooters shooting 15 footers. Not sure you want your centers shooting those shots.
Shaka doesn't seem to mind Morsell and Lewis taking those shots at all. If Oso could show that he can make 'em at a similar rate, I'm guessing Shaka wouldn't mind that, either.
Big if. I don't know if Oso has that in his game. If he doesn't, neither I nor Shaka would want him taking it.
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Forgot to mention that Kur will be fine.
He will be a big part of Marquettes success when it matters most this season.
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Do you ever watch the Badgers? Or if he does not want your shooters to shoot, how about a move or two other than a dunk.
You mean the team that's 261st in eFG%? Marquette is currently 76th nationally in eFG%, which is higher than Gard has ever had in Madison.
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I was just discussing Crowl, he can go inside but can go outside as well.
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Oso's FT form is pretty good. I wouldn't be surprised if he's got a 15-footer in his game, and I'd like to see it next season.
Oso has looked a little rough lately, but he's going to be a monster down the road. Very excited for his future.
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You mean the team that's 261st in eFG%? Marquette is currently 76th nationally in eFG%, which is higher than Gard has ever had in Madison.
Posts like this that make me wish Scoop had a like button...!
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Remember the Nevada Smith offensive plan for this team...the preferred shots are dunks and threes. Everything else is just Plan B.
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Remember the Nevada Smith offensive plan for this team...the preferred shots are dunks and threes. Everything else is just Plan B.
Broken record but this team needs a half court offense with movement. That's the importance of establishing a post threat. ISOs are the most inefficient shots in basketball. Something like 0.8 PPP. It's often what MU is left with if they don't get a quick shot. Shaka's Achilles heel.
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Broken record but this team needs a half court offense with movement.
They have it when they're playing well. The problem with the last two was they panicked and got away from that.
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They have it when they're playing well. The problem with the last two was they panicked and got away from that.
Agree to disagree. The thing is you need a half court offense when you aren't playing well as teams adjust defensively. MU is #314 in the country with points from their centers and an even worse #349 with points from their PG. Those are the two most critical positions in a half court offense. It's 3 on 5 most games.
I won't even get into the rebounding issue.
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Defenses are hedging everything on the pick and roll action, which is slowing down the offense considerably. I like Kolek, but he doesn't penalize defenses when they do that. He usually dribbles around the pick or simply stops, versus splitting the pick action or hitting the roll. Both of these things slow down the motion and cause a reset.
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Broken record but this team needs a half court offense with movement. That's the importance of establishing a post threat. ISOs are the most inefficient shots in basketball. Something like 0.8 PPP. It's often what MU is left with if they don't get a quick shot. Shaka's Achilles heel.
Agree. Shaka's done a great job this season but there are things that need improvement/adjustment, which isn't surprising. And this is one of them.
When the pick and roll isn't getting the desired results, we end up having 4 guys standing outside the 3-point line watching Morsell, Lewis or O-Max going 1-on-1.
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Agree. Shaka's done a great job this season but there are things that need improvement/adjustment, which isn't surprising. And this is one of them.
When the pick and roll isn't getting the desired results, we end up having 4 guys standing outside the 3-point line watching Morsell, Lewis or O-Max going 1-on-1.
Yep. And this is the essential problem with running a pro-style offense without pro-style players.
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Even though it makes a segment of our fanbase a little crazy, I think part of the answer to this is pushing tempo even more and hunting out some mismatches.
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Glad to see a nice bounce back. He won't do this every game but we'll need positive contributions from him down the stretch
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Glad to see a nice bounce back. He won't do this every game but we'll need positive contributions from him down the stretch
He will do it when it matters most, March 17th/18th when MUs opponent can’t defend Kolek and Marquettes extremely effective pick and roll plus the big diving to the basket.
He will also probably get 4/5 blocks.
Early pick for sotg 😂
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Butler seems to have Kurs number, but why is he so often 35 ft from the basket on D? Need to adjust the scheme to keep him in the paint - the only place he's useful.
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And if Stevie’s in its 3 on 5
Not today, Booney.
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And when the offense goes 5 out or inverts their guards and bigs? Offenses are adjusting to specifically pull him away from the basket. Bigs who can shoot from distance are tough for him.
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Butler seems to have Kurs number, but why is he so often 35 ft from the basket on D? Need to adjust the scheme to keep him in the paint - the only place he's useful.
Because he is a really bad defender.
The 2 things he can do are block shots and run the floor.
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And if Stevie’s in its 3 on 5
Did not age well….
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Bad defensive play to start the second half. Awful turnover and he was done for the game.
All depends on matchups. Butler is smaller so we didn't need Kur. He needs to step up his game as his collegiate career is winding down.
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Bad defensive play to start the second half. Awful turnover and he was done for the game.
All depends on matchups. Butler is smaller so we didn't need Kur. He needs to step up his game as his collegiate career is winding down.
I applaud Shaka for pulling a guy that’s mentally out to lunch (seems like JL had something other than the game on his mind too), but Shaka’s in-game adjustments remind me of Woj. How many lay-ups did Butler get? I fear these next two games.
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I applaud Shaka for pulling a guy that’s mentally out to lunch (seems like JL had something other than the game on his mind too), but Shaka’s in-game adjustments remind me of Woj. How many lay-ups did Butler get? I fear these next two games.
Barely any after the first eight minutes
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Barely any after the first eight minutes
False.
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In game adjustments? You're joking right? 23 points in 8 minutes. 33 points in 32 minutes. Jordan even discussed post-game about how Butler did not handle MU's adjustment well.
Edit: I corrected the points and times. Mea culpa.
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In game adjustments? You're joking right? 24 points in 8 minutes. 32 points in 32 minutes. Jordan even discussed post-game about how Butler did not handle MU's adjustment well.
Ka-Ching! Yes good half time adjustments
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False.
Well they only scored 33 points after that point, so a max of 16. 13/33 of their points were threes and fts so actually a max of 10. Even if all 10 FGs were layups, 10 layups over 32 minutes is not bad, especially when you shut them down everywhere else
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False.
Butler had 7 layups or dunks in the last 32 minutes. One every 4.57 minutes. At least two of those were contested layups finishing over a MU defender.
To me, that qualifies as barely any. It certainly wasn’t a layup line.
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Butler had 7 layups or dunks in the last 32 minutes. One every 4.57 minutes. At least two of those were contested layups finishing over a MU defender.
To me, that qualifies as barely any. It certainly wasn’t a layup line.
Fair enough. I see what you and TAMU are saying.
But I suspect “barely any” to me means a bit different than you lads. But I see your stats and that is quite the decrease.
Having said that I’m working off of 3 jack and cokes, 2 mimosas and 3 shots worth of memory pre game.
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Fair enough. I see what you and TAMU are saying.
But I suspect “barely any” to me means a bit different than you lads. But I see your stats and that is quite the decrease.
Having said that I’m working off of 3 jack and cokes, 2 mimosas and 3 shots worth of memory pre game.
All good. Sounds like you had a hell of a NMD!
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Hey, GoooMarquette:
Yes, Stevie was undoubtedly the spark today. We couldn't have won without him. But his ONE decent offensive game in conference play doesn't mean I was wrong. He still has a looong way to go on that end. Nice try, though ::)
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Hey, GoooMarquette:
Yes, Stevie was undoubtedly the spark today. We couldn't have won without him. But his ONE decent offensive game in conference play doesn't mean I was wrong. He still has a looong way to go on that end. Nice try, though ::)
Stevie has been asked to embrace the role of defensive on-ball pest, and he has played that role very well and without complaint. Per Shaka, Stevie was primarily a scorer in high school, so the fact that he has taken on this extremely different and frankly non-glorious role is a testament to him.
The defensive end never gets the accolades as the offensive end does, and I guess rightfully so in some respects, but I love what he brings to the team.
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For sure. No argument on his defensive work, but my post was in response to his offensive game. One good game on that end does not a turnaround make.
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I don't think Kur's been bad. Oso has just been a better matchup in recent weeks.
We know Kur is limited offensively to dunks and floaters. If Marquette is unable to get the screen and rolls working Oso is just the better option. It's nice to have 2 guys at the same position that complement each other like Kur and Oso.
Also check out this mixtape of Oso if you get a few minutes. He has a jumpshot that looks really good. He just hasn't pulled it out yet. If he can find some consistency with a midrange jumpshot I'm pretty sure he's a future NBA guy.
Not many his size can dribble, pass, and create shots for others like Oso. He is an unreal talent.
https://youtu.be/8Z2068pEULU
https://youtu.be/7G7x5EXG9Eg
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All good points, but I think Kur will be the "x" factor for any March success. Of course we need Daryll and Jlew to play well, but I think our March ceiling really depends on if Kur can be a competent big. We don't need double-double production - but we do need him to be a net positive on the defensive end and not a net negative on the offensive end.
If we reach the BET finals or the S16 I would expect Kur to have logged at least 18 minutes a game and be at least in the 4-4-2 stat line (pts-rebs-blks).
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Hey, GoooMarquette:
Yes, Stevie was undoubtedly the spark today. We couldn't have won without him. But his ONE decent offensive game in conference play doesn't mean I was wrong. He still has a looong way to go on that end. Nice try, though ::)
If you really believe we're effectively a man short when Stevie is in, you haven't been paying much attention. He has a ways to go, but he is hardly an empty uniform as your "3 on 5" post implied.
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I don't think Kur's been bad. Oso has just been a better matchup in recent weeks.
We know Kur is limited offensively to dunks and floaters. If Marquette is unable to get the screen and rolls working Oso is just the better option. It's nice to have 2 guys at the same position that complement each other like Kur and Oso.
Also check out this mixtape of Oso if you get a few minutes. He has a jumpshot that looks really good. He just hasn't pulled it out yet. If he can find some consistency with a midrange jumpshot I'm pretty sure he's a future NBA guy.
Not many his size can dribble, pass, and create shots for others like Oso. He is an unreal talent.
https://youtu.be/8Z2068pEULU
https://youtu.be/7G7x5EXG9Eg
Didn't Torrence or Akanno have a great "mix tape" too?
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Didn't Torrence or Akanno have a great "mix tape" too?
Not sure, but Torrence and Akanno aren't 6'9" or 6'10" with the ability to dribble, defend, score, and pass.
Nor did they ever score 22 or 16 points in a Big East game while making 70% of their shots in their 1st real season in the Big East.
Oso has more than high school tape. He's already proven to be a monster weapon at just 19 in the Big East.
He played 5 games last year. To put that into perspective that's 8 less games than Ellis has played this year. A grand total of 38 minutes, not even a full games worth of minutes in a season. Yet here he is playing crunch time minutes for a tournament team, shooting 71% for his career at 66 for 93 from the floor.
Incredibly high ceiling.
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1SE
I 100% believe that Kur is going to be a major factor for MU come tournament time. While I would have played him more minutes that last few games, I have zero issue with Oso as many minutes as possible right now. I believe the country will see a lot of Ku in the next few weeks.
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GoooMarquette:
No, it’s you who hasn’t been paying attention. Until Butler, when Stevie’s been in we most certainly have been playing a man short on the offensive end (my critique did not pertain to his work on D) during conference play.
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Didn't Torrence or Akanno have a great "mix tape" too?
Akanno had a great summer tape back in LA in the summer of 20. COVID and thre resulting myocarditis from COVID kept him from contributing to MU in the 20-21 season.
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Akanno had a great summer tape back in LA in the summer of 20. COVID and thre resulting myocarditis from COVID kept him from contributing to MU in the 20-21 season.
Not sure it was just covid that kept him from contributing. He's finally starting to get a little run for Oregon state last month or so, but he's been far from an impact player. I liked Dexter alot and was sad to see him go when he did leave, but reality is he's probably just not very good.
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Still trying to get back to where he was prior.
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GoooMarquette:
No, it’s you who hasn’t been paying attention. Until Butler, when Stevie’s been in we most certainly have been playing a man short on the offensive end (my critique did not pertain to his work on D) during conference play.
Keep telling yourself that. And more importantly…keep telling yourself the post aged well… 🤔
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Prior to Butler, Stevie was all of 7x19 from the field (including 0x4 on 3s) in BE play, averaging 1.1 points per. Just what in the those stats suggest he was an offensive threat? Nothing.
Hopefully, Butler is the start of something big for him offensively, but you’d be wise to hold off on crowing until he strings together more than one good offensive performance in a row. Then again, you’ll probably continue to be you. ?-(
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Prior to Butler, Stevie was all of 7x19 from the field (including 0x4 on 3s) in BE play, averaging 1.1 points per. Just what in the those stats suggest he was an offensive threat? Nothing.
Hopefully, Butler is the start of something big for him offensively, but you’d be wise to hold off on crowing until he strings together more than one good offensive performance in a row. Then again, you’ll probably continue to be you. ?-(
Why? He doesn't need to be an offensive player this year. His role is to get in the face of others point guards and make the hustle plays while finishing open shots. Not everyone has to be a world beater offensively. You need guys who play different roles to be successful.
Why try to force something he's not? Play hard defense, be the hardest worker on the court and finish open shots at the rim. He has a role and he's done it really well.
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not asking or expecting him to be a world beater. Before Butler, he's barely contributed at all on offensive end. Hence my point about playing a man short when he's been in