Deonte's departure mildly surprising at best

[NersEllenson]

Ignoring the factual inaccuracy (JJJ played more than JD last year, and was better when he did), it's really irrelevant because they play different positions.
The fact is not one, but two, coaching staffs have determined that JD wasn't good enough to get more PT. It's possible that everybody is wrong but you here ... but it's not credible to suggest, as you have repeatedly, that the kid is the victim of some sinister plot.

Are you sure? What exactly did JD show in games last year? We're talking about a kid who shot .320 from the field - worse than Derrick, in fact, by not a little - and had a terrible assist-to-turnover ratio for a guy who'd be asked to handle the ball a lot, as Derrick does. JD turned the ball over once for every 1.4 assists. Derrick has a 3-to-1 ratio this year.

Sorry - Yes, JJJ did play more minutes for the season as a whole, but in conference play John played more.  But yes, different positions.

Regarding what Dawson showed in games last year -  to compare head to head with Derrick given one player had the ideal performance environment (max minutes EVERY GAME), and the other wildly inconsistent minutes, but generally 3, short stints of 3 to 4 minutes per game (in the games he got to play in) is like comparing an apple to an orange.  Not trying to be a dick - but have you ever played the game at even a high school level?  I simply, ask, because if you have I think you'd understand it is very hard to produce a whole lot in such choppy segments of playing time.

Yes, we have only 1 game of "real" data on Dawson (where he got 30 minutes).  In that game the guy scored 12.  He played solidly, on the road, against 2 very good guards.  And in overtime, hit a 3, a nice midrange pull up off the dribble, and 2-2 from the FT line - all during clutch time.  Shows me the kid has some poise.  The fact he shoots FTS at about 75% also tells me he's a good shooter.  He saw the floor well too.  Had the second best D-Rating on the team last year after Derrick.  He was a good prospect.  And he will have a nice college career somewhere.

[Logi4three]

1.  John wanted to stay at Marquette, and was hopeful to "earn" time on the floor to prove he belonged.  He kept his mouth shut, kept working hard, being a good teammate - with the hopes he'd get some PT.  As has been posted, the decision wasn't made till after the WI game (7th DNP in a row.)  He, nor family ever went to coaching staff and said..."Play me, or I'm going to transfer."  Not their style.  As his Dad said in the Journal Sentinel interview - "They read the handwriting on the wall."  (And made their determination accordingly.)  


2.  Nothing concrete/definitive.  Was told to just keep working hard.  Was pretty generic "company line" type of communication.

Thanks for the insight on this.  Sounds like John is a great kid with a great family.  Hope he finds a good fit going forward.  Any idea how long he will take to pick a new program (I assume it has to be by the start of the new semester)?

[bilsu]

Almost every player has a career game. I think Vander averaged slighly less than 6 points as freshmen, but he scored 25 in one game. Kinsella did nothing his whole career and then hit 3 or 4 threes on senior night against Pittsburg. I would say Carlino's 38 points against Georgia Tech was a career game. I do believe Duane will have another 30 point game this year, like Novak who had two unbelievable games they are outliers. Doing it once means you were hot, doing more than one shows you have talent. The year we went 22-15 we won one game where
Acker hit 6 threes and another game were Culliban hit 6 threes. I doubt they hit more than 3 threes in any other game that year.

[tower912]

Almost every player has a career game. I think Vander averaged slighly less than 6 points as freshmen, but he scored 25 in one game. Kinsella did nothing his whole career and then hit 3 or 4 threes on senior night against Pittsburg. I would say Carlino's 38 points against Georgia Tech was a career game. I do believe Duane will have another 30 point game this year, like Novak who had two unbelievable games they are outliers. Doing it once means you were hot, doing more than one shows you have talent. The year we went 22-15 we won one game where
Acker hit 6 threes and another game were Culliban hit 6 threes. I doubt they hit more than 3 threes in any other game that year.

Ryan Amoroso had a game for the ages.    Once. 

[Juan Anderson's Mixtape]

Jean Felix, anyone?   

[wildbillsb]

Jean Felix, anyone?   

Did you really have to open painful, old, psychological wounds that were slowly scabbing over?  Damn you!

[Spotcheck Billy]

I will speculate, however, that perhaps it may not have been so much that Wojo didn't think John was a good player, as much as it was Wojo liked other prospects better (Sandy), as well as next year's incoming guards -  Nick N and Cheatham.  I feel this way as it then goes back to being the CEO of the program, and if you sense "overcapacity" at one position, and perhaps a deficit elsewhere (PG), you might want to change the complexion of the roster and in so doing improve your roster - and give the "encouraged transfer" kid a better future elsewhere.

if next year's players were a factor then wouldn't Wojo just nail him to the bench next year, no need to force a transfer this year

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

If we believe that 3 or 4 min stints aren't a good way to evaluate a player, then a 1 time performance probably isn't a good way either. Lots of outliers in both scenarios.

Honestly, none of us have enough input to accurately judge playing time. We're all just guessing based upon what we've seen, which is about 1% of what the coaches have seen.

I hope John has a nice career. Seems like a nice kid, and should be able to find a place to play for a couple of years.

[Nevada233]

This is completely false.  I can assure you 100% the decision wasn't made until after the 7th DNP (Wisconsin game).  Thoughts began after the 3rd DNP, though nothing said to coaching staff.  Dawson continued to work hard, be a great teammate, and did everything he could to get on the court thereafter.  

Wojo preferred to free that scholarship versus give him an opportunity to play.  Wojo isn't dumb and knows that nailing a guy to the bench is the best way to breed discontent.

This is 100% ners is right.... It didn't happen right away....

Thanks for the insight on this.  Sounds like John is a great kid with a great family.  Hope he finds a good fit going forward.  Any idea how long he will take to pick a new program (I assume it has to be by the start of the new semester)?

Correct, and very soon....

[jsglow]

While I'm sure Ners and keefe have it right, I guess what I still can't get my arms around is why Wojo wouldn't value both John's and Deonte's services for the remainder of the year?  Both had already burned their Sophomore eligibility and it's not as if they were 12th and 13th man.  I guess we'll never know.  Certainly there's no indication that either did anything that reflected badly on MU.

Anyway, we move forward.  I hope both find happiness and success at their next stop.

[WarriorInNYC]

While I'm sure Ners and keefe have it right, I guess what I still can't get my arms around is why Wojo wouldn't value both John's and Deonte's services for the remainder of the year?  Both had already burned their Sophomore eligibility and it's not as if they were 12th and 13th man.  I guess we'll never know.  Certainly there's no indication that either did anything that reflected badly on MU.

Anyway, we move forward.  I hope both find happiness and success at their next stop.

I see your point, but wouldnt there be an incentive for both John and Deonte to transfer sooner?  In order for them to be eligible earlier next year?  I understand in doing so, they in essence lose a year's worth of eligibility (second half this year, first half next year), but I just want to point out that I wouldn't jump to assumptions that Wojo wouldn't want them to stick around for the remainder of the year.

[Pakuni]

Sorry - Yes, JJJ did play more minutes for the season as a whole, but in conference play John played more.  But yes, different positions.

Regarding what Dawson showed in games last year -  to compare head to head with Derrick given one player had the ideal performance environment (max minutes EVERY GAME), and the other wildly inconsistent minutes, but generally 3, short stints of 3 to 4 minutes per game (in the games he got to play in) is like comparing an apple to an orange.  Not trying to be a dick - but have you ever played the game at even a high school level?  I simply, ask, because if you have I think you'd understand it is very hard to produce a whole lot in such choppy segments of playing time.

Yes, we have only 1 game of "real" data on Dawson (where he got 30 minutes).  In that game the guy scored 12.  He played solidly, on the road, against 2 very good guards.  And in overtime, hit a 3, a nice midrange pull up off the dribble, and 2-2 from the FT line - all during clutch time.  Shows me the kid has some poise.  The fact he shoots FTS at about 75% also tells me he's a good shooter.  He saw the floor well too.  Had the second best D-Rating on the team last year after Derrick.  He was a good prospect.  And he will have a nice college career somewhere.

Serious questions, Ners .... how is it you believe coaches do determine playing time, and how do you think coaches should determine playing time?
You seem to be implying here that a player - in this case Dawson - deserves playing time to show whether or not he deserves playing time. As if at the season's onset, all playing time should be distributed equally among the roster until at some point (when???) each player has been given enough opportunity to show whether or not he deserves more.
That's obviously ludicrous, and fortunately not the way it works.
Players earn PT initially based on what they show in practice, and then when given an opportunity in games.
Buzz Williams saw John in practice every day for months, and then in some games, and decided he didn't earn more playing time.
Wojo saw John in practice for weeks, and decided he didn't earn significant playing time.
It's bizarre to think that there's something more to it than that.

I hate to do this, because bashing JD is not my desire or my intent, but let's be honest here. He was a lower-tier three-star recruit (#277 overall according to the 24/7 composite) who chose Marquette over the likes of UTEP, Wyoming, Idaho State and New Mexico State. It was a big surprise that a high-major program like MU gave him a scholarship. What shouldn't be a big surprise is that he wasn't good enough - especially by early in his sophomore year - to play much for such a program. While there certainly have been instances of lightly regarded recruits succeeding at bigger programs, they're very much the exception to the rule. John doesn't appear to be the exception.
He's no different from Jamal Ferguson or Brett Roseboro or Liam McMorrow or Youssoupha Mbao .... a kid Buzz reached - and missed - on.
I wish him nothing but the best in his future.

Problem is, you can't or won't accept this because you built him up last year to be a Magic-esque player, despite heaps of evidence to the contrary. And so instead of facing the reality that John probably wasn't good enough at this stage of his career to earn major minutes, you've fabricated a conspiracy wherein TWO D-1 coaching staffs are either too incompetent to see the kid's all-world talents or have acted sinisterly to keep a good kid down.

[esotericmindguy]

John Dawson simply isn't that good. He'll transfer to a mid major and probably have a decent career. Good for him, he probably just wants to play. Can't imagine it's that fun to dedicate yourself to academics and basketball and never see the floor.People on this board will then post his great stats at Florida A&M.

[mattyv1908]

Serious questions, Ners .... how is it you believe coaches do determine playing time, and how do you think coaches should determine playing time?
You seem to be implying here that a player - in this case Dawson - deserves playing time to show whether or not he deserves playing time. As if at the season's onset, all playing time should be distributed equally among the roster until at some point (when???) each player has been given enough opportunity to show whether or not he deserves more.
That's obviously ludicrous, and fortunately not the way it works.
Players earn PT initially based on what they show in practice, and then when given an opportunity in games.
Buzz Williams saw John in practice every day for months, and then in some games, and decided he didn't earn more playing time.
Wojo saw John in practice for weeks, and decided he didn't earn significant playing time.
It's bizarre to think that there's something more to it than that.

I hate to do this, because bashing JD is not my desire or my intent, but let's be honest here. He was a lower-tier three-star recruit (#277 overall according to the 24/7 composite) who chose Marquette over the likes of UTEP, Wyoming, Idaho State and New Mexico State. It was a big surprise that a high-major program like MU gave him a scholarship. What shouldn't be a big surprise is that he wasn't good enough - especially by early in his sophomore year - to play much for such a program. While there certainly have been instances of lightly regarded recruits succeeding at bigger programs, they're very much the exception to the rule. John doesn't appear to be the exception.
He's no different from Jamal Ferguson or Brett Roseboro or Liam McMorrow or Youssoupha Mbao .... a kid Buzz reached - and missed - on.
I wish him nothing but the best in his future.

Problem is, you can't or won't accept this because you built him up last year to be a Magic-esque player, despite heaps of evidence to the contrary. And so instead of facing the reality that John probably wasn't good enough at this stage of his career to earn major minutes, you've fabricated a conspiracy wherein TWO D-1 coaching staffs are either too incompetent to see the kid's all-world talents or have acted sinisterly to keep a good kid down.

Good post.

I think if Junior Cadougan was our point guard last year Ners never has this debate.

It's the point guard production (or lack there of) that no matter what anyone says, in Ners' mind is the worst he's ever seen.

[WarriorInNYC]

Serious questions, Ners .... how is it you believe coaches do determine playing time, and how do you think coaches should determine playing time?
You seem to be implying here that a player - in this case Dawson - deserves playing time to show whether or not he deserves playing time. As if at the season's onset, all playing time should be distributed equally among the roster until at some point (when???) each player has been given enough opportunity to show whether or not he deserves more.
That's obviously ludicrous, and fortunately not the way it works.
Players earn PT initially based on what they show in practice, and then when given an opportunity in games.
Buzz Williams saw John in practice every day for months, and then in some games, and decided he didn't earn more playing time.
Wojo saw John in practice for weeks, and decided he didn't earn significant playing time.
It's bizarre to think that there's something more to it than that.

I hate to do this, because bashing JD is not my desire or my intent, but let's be honest here. He was a lower-tier three-star recruit (#277 overall according to the 24/7 composite) who chose Marquette over the likes of UTEP, Wyoming, Idaho State and New Mexico State. It was a big surprise that a high-major program like MU gave him a scholarship. What shouldn't be a big surprise is that he wasn't good enough - especially by early in his sophomore year - to play much for such a program. While there certainly have been instances of lightly regarded recruits succeeding at bigger programs, they're very much the exception to the rule. John doesn't appear to be the exception.
He's no different from Jamal Ferguson or Brett Roseboro or Liam McMorrow or Youssoupha Mbao .... a kid Buzz reached - and missed - on.
I wish him nothing but the best in his future.

Problem is, you can't or won't accept this because you built him up last year to be a Magic-esque player, despite heaps of evidence to the contrary. And so instead of facing the reality that John probably wasn't good enough at this stage of his career to earn major minutes, you've fabricated a conspiracy wherein TWO D-1 coaching staffs are either too incompetent to see the kid's all-world talents or have acted sinisterly to keep a good kid down.

Great post Pakuni.  I would like to further stress that your above assessment is not bashing JD at all, but merely calling it how it is.  Some people here like to think that statements like the above are "bashing a player" when all it really is, is saying he merely was not good enough to get significant minutes.

[CTWarrior]

Serious questions, Ners .... how is it you believe coaches do determine playing time, and how do you think coaches should determine playing time?
You seem to be implying here that a player - in this case Dawson - deserves playing time to show whether or not he deserves playing time. As if at the season's onset, all playing time should be distributed equally among the roster until at some point (when???) each player has been given enough opportunity to show whether or not he deserves more.
That's obviously ludicrous, and fortunately not the way it works.
Players earn PT initially based on what they show in practice, and then when given an opportunity in games.
Buzz Williams saw John in practice every day for months, and then in some games, and decided he didn't earn more playing time.
Wojo saw John in practice for weeks, and decided he didn't earn significant playing time.
It's bizarre to think that there's something more to it than that.

Don't want to answer for Ners, but in short, I think the logic for his desire to see Dawson was basically, "The starting PG is killing us, let's try someone else.  How could he be worse?"  He was not advocating playing everyone equally then sorting them out based on game action.  Not unreasonable for a fan to think that way.  Of course the coach has a better handle on his options than we do as fans, but as fans we can have valid dissenting opinions (though perhaps expressing the same opinion multiple times daily is unnecesary), and I have to agree that it was very frustrating watching that Derrick/Jake backcourt last year.

[brandx]

John Dawson simply isn't that good. He'll transfer to a mid major and probably have a decent career. Good for him, he probably just wants to play. Can't imagine it's that fun to dedicate yourself to academics and basketball and never see the floor.People on this board will then post his great stats at Florida A&M.

And if John averages only 5 pts in 18 minutes a game at a low- or mid-major, will we have to listen to Ners go on about another coach not knowing what he is doing?

[Pakuni]

Don't want to answer for Ners, but in short, I think the logic for his desire to see Dawson was basically, "The starting PG is killing us, let's try someone else.  How could he be worse?"  He was not advocating playing everyone equally then sorting them out based on game action.  Not unreasonable for a fan to think that way.  Of course the coach has a better handle on his options than we do as fans, but as fans we can have valid dissenting opinions (though perhaps expressing the same opinion multiple times daily is unnecesary), and I have to agree that it was very frustrating watching that Derrick/Jake backcourt last year.

That's fair, but I would suggest this:
Wojo - and before him, Buzz - knows exactly who Derrick Wilson is.They know what kind of production they're getting from him in games. They know what he does well, and they know his obvious limitations. I would suggest they know this to a far greater degree than any of us.
Despite this knowledge, they've both decided their teams have a better chance of winning with Derrick getting significantly more playing time than JD.
As I've said before, it is possible that they're both wrong.
But what's not possible, as Ners has repeatedly implied, is that Buzz and Wojo have nailed JD to the bench for (separate) nefarious reasons.

[CTWarrior]

That's fair, but I would suggest this:
Wojo - and before him, Buzz - knows exactly who Derrick Wilson is.They know what kind of production they're getting from him in games. They know what he does well, and they know his obvious limitations. I would suggest they know this to a far greater degree than any of us.
Despite this knowledge, they've both decided their teams have a better chance of winning with Derrick getting significantly more playing time than JD.
As I've said before, it is possible that they're both wrong.
But what's not possible, as Ners has repeatedly implied, is that Buzz and Wojo have nailed JD to the bench for (separate) nefarious reasons.

I agree with you here.  Both the last two coaches certainly see what Derrick does and doesn't do and have a better handle on what JD can and can't do than we do, and felt it was in the team's best interest to play Derrick big minutes and Dawson little to none.  Derrick is undoubtedly a great leader but I don't see him as even a serviceable PG on the offensive half of the court.  I readily admit that I would defer to Wojo (and Buzz before him) when it comes to what's best for the team, but I don't understand what they see in him other than intangibles and defense and how that's worth so many minutes.  

I can live in a world where I don't understand why the coach is doing what he is doing and still root for him and the team.  I understand that I am very likely wrong and they are very likely right.

[Eldon]

Don't want to answer for Ners, but in short, I think the logic for his desire to see Dawson was basically, "The starting PG is killing us, let's try someone else.  How could he be worse?"  He was not advocating playing everyone equally then sorting them out based on game action.  Not unreasonable for a fan to think that way.  Of course the coach has a better handle on his options than we do as fans, but as fans we can have valid dissenting opinions (though perhaps expressing the same opinion multiple times daily is unnecesary), and I have to agree that it was very frustrating watching that Derrick/Jake backcourt last year.

Nothing but net!

[Eldon]

And if John averages only 5 pts in 18 minutes a game at a low- or mid-major, will we have to listen to Ners go on about another coach not knowing what he is doing?

And how many points per minute would DeWil score at a low- or mid-major?

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

I can live in a world where I don't understand why the coach is doing what he is doing and still root for him and the team.  I understand that I am very likely wrong and they are very likely right.

This is the key for me.

It's okay to dislike the way a coach does something, but also understand that he likely knows something we don't.

EXAMPLE:
I never liked Buzz's rotations, but they worked (for several seasons), so I just shrugged and said "okay".

[GOO]

This is the key for me.

It's okay to dislike the way a coach does something, but also understand that he likely knows something we don't.

EXAMPLE:
I never liked Buzz's rotations, but they worked (for several seasons), so I just shrugged and said "okay".

But that ignores the couple of poster (or maybe one)  who knows more than Buzz and Wojo.  Can't you see that we have a poster that knows more than these guys who are being paid millions of dollars?  Guys at the very top of their profession.  One poster in particular knows what is best from a very small sample size than Buzz, Wojo, and presumably the majority of assistants as well.  

The same guy probably knows what the politicians should be doing to resolve the ISIS problem, the middle east issues, and sound economic policy as well as a host of other significant issues.  It is just the rest of us that can't see it so clearly.  And this person thinks if they spend hours posting the same stuff over and over and over, that the rest of us will see the light that he so clearly sees and get in line... Ugghh!

[MtAiryGoldenEagle]

Yup, say what you want about Hoiberg. But he is a great coach. I have a friend who plays for Iowa St. (Yes he transferred) and he has said nothing but great things about Hoiberg. Deonte would be in good hands if he went there.

http://www.iowastatedaily.com/business/article_f349fbe8-816c-11e4-bad3-4b9f0904cabf.html

Based on the article linked above, seems like Hoiberg gives his players a long leash/free rein. 

[ChitownSpaceForRent]

http://www.iowastatedaily.com/business/article_f349fbe8-816c-11e4-bad3-4b9f0904cabf.html

Based on the article linked above, seems like Hoiberg gives his players a long leash/free rein.  

So did Buzz. Plus any given weekend, any house on MU's  campus would be busted for those exact same charges. I'm not saying it's right but to turn a blind eye is the norm in many big time programs.