MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: ChicosBailBonds on March 31, 2014, 10:40:08 AM
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For the Martin backers, if UT doesn't make the play-in game.....you still supporting him for the coach?
How much of your support is based on the three games won in the NCAA tournament?
Curious more than anything
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Thank you.
Questions that needed to be asked.
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I was a Cuonzo fan waaaay before this tournament. Look, the guy can coach, his players play hard for him and he has the ability to recruit 5 STAR players, unlike Brent.
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I was a Cuonzo fan waaaay before this tournament. Look, the guy can coach, his players play hard for him and he has the ability to recruit 5 STAR players, unlike Brent.
Are you Mike Broeker?
Does CM have a bevy of 5 star recruits he has landed?
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For me it all depends. Is it Martin vs Howland? Martin vs Wojo? Martin vs Wardle? Martin vs Hopkins?
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For the Martin backers, if UT doesn't make the play-in game.....you still supporting him for the coach?
How much of your support is based on the three games won in the NCAA tournament?
Curious more than anything
I also asked, if a Duke did not lay an egg, against Mercer, then blew out Tenn in the next round, are we having this discussion?
As I titled the other thread, "Mercer beats Duke, we lose?"
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For me it all depends. Is it Martin vs Howland? Martin vs Wojo? Martin vs Wardle? Martin vs Hopkins?
Take those names out of the equation for a second, if UT doesn't get into the play-in game would you support him as the next coach?
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Are you Mike Broeker?
Does CM have a bevy of 5 star recruits he has landed?
Man, hes an upgrade over Brent!
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If Davidson doesn't screw up a simple inbounds play last year is Buzz' name half as attractive?
It is College Basketball...It's called March Madness.
I like Cuonzo. I think he is going to be a great hire if it is him.
Who the hell was Crean before we hired him, who the hell was Buzz?
Trust the guys who have made these decisions before.
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Are you Mike Broeker?
Does CM have a bevy of 5 star recruits he has landed?
Actually, a couple of five-star guys: Robert Hubbs and Jarnell Stokes.
Two in three years is better than Buzz (one in six) and Crean (zero in nine) did here.
Anyhow, if we're asking the play-in question of Martin (which is fair) we probably should have done it as well for Shaka.
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Take those names out of the equation for a second, if UT doesn't get into the play-in game would you support him as the next coach?
Probably not.
But I see him as MU's second best option at this point.
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And if Dayton isn't the last A10 at large....
Agree that things need to be kept in perspective - I really would like to see what Howland could do here - if he fits, he fits.... not sounding like it though - its possible more damage could be done to the program trying to fit a round peg into a square hole then a smaller square peg into a larger square hole - if that makes any sense.
Is an assistant from a wildly successful program safer than a head coach with some but not resounding success?
What about a head coach with a history of success but not a ton lately, perhaps suggesting a change in scenery in necessary (Dixon, Brey)
In the end I just hope we get someone that (A) really wants to be at MU; (B) has a clear vision of what the program was, is, and can be, and (C) will work like hell to implement it.
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I'm a little more concerned if he had never made the tournament. But I trust our admin to make the right decision.
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Man, hes an upgrade over Brent!
As a man, yes. As a coach, I don't know.
Convince me? Why is he?
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I cant wait to read this board once Cuonzo solidify himself as the "great" coach for Marquette like yall THOUGHT Brent was. You guys are sleeping on Cuonzo!
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I cant wait to read this board once Cuonzo solidify himself as the "great" coach for Marquette like yall THOUGHT Brent was. You guys are sleeping on Cuonzo!
I have no opinion about Martin either way ... But I'm glad someone is arguing for him. Please continue to make his case.
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If Davidson doesn't screw up a simple inbounds play last year is Buzz' name half as attractive?
It is College Basketball...It's called March Madness.
I like Cuonzo. I think he is going to be a great hire if it is him.
Who the hell was Crean before we hired him, who the hell was Buzz?
Trust the guys who have made these decisions before.
Crean was the lead recruiter for a national championship team and was considered one of the top 2 assistants in the country at the time. Considering where we were in 1999, an assistant is what we needed. Buzz....beats me what he was or why we hired him.
I do trust the guys, I worked for the main guy for 5 years. I'm just asking a straight forward question, if UT doesn't make the NCAA play-in game, would your support be the same.
More out of curiosity.
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As a man, yes. As a coach, I don't know.
Convince me? Why is he?
For one, he will start his BEST five players. He is able to recruit 5 star players and hes a better x's and o's coach.
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You could also say would he have missed the tournament last year if Maymon hadn't sat out the entire season injured?
I had Tennessee in the E8 before they played Iowa and before Buzz left & Cuonzo's name surfaced as a candidate here. They came within a possession of proving me right. The team was criminally underseeded. They had some early hiccups, but turned it on down the stretch, the way I want a team to look going into the tournament. Started off ranked #33 by KenPom, spent a majority of conference season ~25 in those rankings, then from March 1 through selection Sunday played in such a manner that the ranking went from 25 to 12. That's a sign of a good coach to me. The committee would have been clueless to leave them out.
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For the Martin backers, if UT doesn't make the play-in game.....you still supporting him for the coach?
How much of your support is based on the three games won in the NCAA tournament?
Curious more than anything
Obviously, it plays a role. For me, considering his relative youth as a HC, it could indicate that he had a breakthrough especially considering the adversity he went through at UT, and there was a mountain of it. Every coach finds their way onto the map with these kinds of performances. Martin is no different, he should be getting a little more attention for how far he went under those circumstances.
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I'm not sure I'm a Martin backer, but I'll answer. Yes. The committee is very flawed in their selection process. Tenn. lost to A&M twice and those two games should count against them, but they also have a lot of good wins. They beat X by 15 on a neutral court, they beat fellow bubble team LSU by 18 on their court, they beat other fellow team Mizzou by 27 at home and they beat Virginia by 35 at home.
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I cant wait to read this board once Cuonzo solidify himself as the "great" coach for Marquette like yall THOUGHT Brent was. You guys are sleeping on Cuonzo!
Seriously though, what's your connection to Cuonzo? You show up last week, and have been posting non-stop about Cuonzo ever since. I'm starting to think you actually are Broeker drumming up support for him, or Cuonzo's agent.
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If Enfield doesn’t make the sweet 16 does he get the USC job? If Pearl doesn’t make the sweet 16 does he get the UT job?
If Groce doesn’t make the sweet 16 does he get the Illinois job?
I think you have to look at everything…….
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I'm not sure I'm a Martin backer, but I'll answer. Yes. The committee is very flawed in their selection process. Tenn. lost to A&M twice and those two games should count against them, but they also have a lot of good wins. They beat X by 15 on a neutral court, they beat fellow bubble team LSU by 18 on their court, they beat other fellow team Mizzou by 27 at home and they beat Virginia by 35 at home.
Hey, I resent tha...oh nevermind. TAMU sucks at basketball
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I have no opinion about Martin either way ... But I'm glad someone is arguing for him. Please continue to make his case.
You are one of the main ones saying "HELL NO" to Martin and HELL YES to HOWLAND.
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If Enfield doesn’t make the sweet 16 does he get the USC job? If Pearl doesn’t make the sweet 16 does he get the UT job?
If Groce doesn’t make the sweet 16 does he get the Illinois job?
I think you have to look at everything…….
And have any of these guys impressed you since taking their tourney success and jumping to the next job?
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Actually, a couple of five-star guys: Robert Hubbs and Jarnell Stokes.
Two in three years is better than Buzz (one in six) and Crean (zero in nine) did here.
Anyhow, if we're asking the play-in question of Martin (which is fair) we probably should have done it as well for Shaka.
Shaka's team wasn't a play-in this year and has put 3 teams in since that one year.
On Hubbs and Stokes, is it fair to ask why a team with two 5 star players had to get in to the NCAA tournament as a play-in? Can you imagine a 5 star recruit at MU that scored 5 points per game like Hubbs did? I can imagine the questioning....plus only played 18 minutes a game.....sound familiar?
Honestly, the 5 star recruits I'm not super wild about. Too many of them leaving early, prima donnas, etc.
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Seriously though, what's your connection to Cuonzo? You show up last week, and have been posting non-stop about Cuonzo ever since. I'm starting to think you actually are Broeker drumming up support for him, or Cuonzo's agent.
Man, first of all who is broeker? Secondly, I post because im a Marquette fan just like you.
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You are one of the main ones saying "HELL NO" to Martin and HELL YES to HOWLAND.
Wrong, I have not said no to Martin. I have asked some tough questions.
I'm really on the fence about him.
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For one, he will start his BEST five players. He is able to recruit 5 star players and hes a better x's and o's coach.
Well, if this is the case, I'm surprised they only got in as a play in team, especially playing in the 7th best conference in the country.
Keep convincing me...you can get me there but it just seems with your arguments for (and those of others), pretty reasonable follow-up questions tend to crop up.
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He has improved every single year at both schools. Missouri stayed was a mess when he took over. They ended as a top 25 RPI team.
At Tennessee 7 of the 10 returning players left when he was hired. He improved every year. Upward Trajectory everywhere he has been.
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As I sit here right now, I am not a "Martin backer." Nor am I a Martin critic. I am a Marquette backer and will support the team regardless.
I can look at every single candidate -- including Shaka, whose NCAA tourney record has declined fairly significantly each year since VCU's FF run -- and pick some scabs if I want to.
I am choosing not to prejudge any of these guys. Each has strengths and weaknesses, merits and question marks.
What any of us thinks doesn't matter one iota, so why get all worked up about it? None of us knows more about each candidate and about the entire process than the decision-makers, anyway. Of course we have opinions and it's fun to express them. But saying stuff like, "If you think Martin will be a good coach you are an idiot" is dopey, ill-informed drivel. It adds nothing to the conversation.
No matter whom we select, I will support him and our basketball program. That doesn't mean I won't have opinions about recruiting, strategy, etc., as situations present themselves down the line. It just means I have learned not to stress out about things I can't control and also have learned to try not to make judgments out of ignorance.
Go Marquette!
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Shaka's team wasn't a play-in this year and has put 3 teams in since that one year.
On Hubbs and Stokes, is it fair to ask why a team with two 5 star players had to get in to the NCAA tournament as a play-in? Can you imagine a 5 star recruit at MU that scored 5 points per game like Hubbs did? I can imagine the questioning....plus only played 18 minutes a game.....sound familiar?
Honestly, the 5 star recruits I'm not super wild about. Too many of them leaving early, prima donnas, etc.
Hubbs played 12 games. He was hurt.
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If Martin has all of our schollied and signed recruits avail to him, do we finish in the top 3 of the big east next year?
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If Enfield doesn’t make the sweet 16 does he get the USC job? If Pearl doesn’t make the sweet 16 does he get the UT job?
If Groce doesn’t make the sweet 16 does he get the Illinois job?
I think you have to look at everything…….
Of course, nature of the beast.
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If Martin has all of our schollied and signed recruits avail to him, do we finish in the top 3 of the big east next year?
HELL YES!!
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Answer is no, a coach fired from Tennessee doesn't even fly on our radar.
Broecker needs to get to work on figuring out how to not blame luck or the Gregorian calendar for scheduling four more 300+ RPI teams than everyone in our conference, not going against everyone pretending he knows what a good coaching candidate is (ok, not everyone since someone who must be Martin's brother showed up here last week to incessantly slurp him).
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As I sit here right now, I am not a "Martin backer." Nor am I a Martin critic. I am a Marquette backer and will support the team regardless.
I can look at every single candidate -- including Shaka, whose NCAA tourney record has declined fairly significantly each year since VCU's FF run -- and pick some scabs if I want to.
I am choosing not to prejudge any of these guys. Each has strengths and weaknesses, merits and question marks.
What any of us thinks doesn't matter one I iota, so why get all worked up about it? None of us knows more about each candidate and about the entire process than the decision-makers, anyway. Of course we have opinions and it's fun to express them. But saying stuff like, "If you think Martin will be a good coach you are an idiot" is dopey, ill-informed drivel. It adds nothing to the conversation.
No matter whom we select, I will support him and our basketball program. That doesn't mean I won't have opinions about recruiting, strategy, etc., as situations present themselves down the line. It just means I have learned not to stress out about things I can't control and also have learned to try not to make judgments out of ignorance.
Go Marquette!
ONE MILLION - THIS SHOULD BE THE BASIS OF ALL COMMENTS MADE IMO
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Man, first of all who is broeker? Secondly, I post because im a Marquette fan just like you.
You're a Marquette fan but you don't know Broeker? He's been our deputy athletic director for the past 6 years
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Hey, I resent tha...oh nevermind. TAMU sucks at basketball
Well crap, having Martin's team lose to them twice with two 5 star recruits is a little concerning. ;)
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And have any of these guys impressed you since taking their tourney success and jumping to the next job?
Way to early to make that determination
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Well, if this is the case, I'm surprised they only got in as a play in team, especially playing in the 7th best conference in the country.
Keep convincing me...you can get me there but it just seems with your arguments for (and those of others), pretty reasonable follow-up questions tend to crop up.
I can guarantee you he wont start Derrick Wilson..im done trying to convince you because you obviously have a preconceived notion that he cant coach
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You're a Marquette fan but you don't know Broeker? He's been our deputy athletic director for the past 6 years
Sorry sir for not knowing everyones names in administration. You are a better fan than me too.
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Well crap, having Martin's team lose to them twice with two 5 star recruits is a little concerning. ;)
And Kansas lost to TCU last year with way more than 2 five star recruits on board. And TCU makes TAMU look like worldbeaters.
Just like you can't zero in on a three game winning streak in March, you can't zero in on two bad losses.
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Sorry sir for not knowing everyones names in administration. You are a better fan than me too.
Sorry, I was being a bit of a dick. I was just surprised. Broeker is in the top 3 in terms of names within the admin (concerning MBB)
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Man, first of all who is broeker? Secondly, I post because im a Marquette fan just like you.
A Marquette fan who doesn't know who Broeker is, but thinks he/she knows the best choice for our next HC?
Thanks for the laugh.
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I can guarantee you he wont start Derrick Wilson..im done trying to convince you because you obviously have a preconceived notion that he cant coach
I don't have that opinion at all. You're awfully sensitive. I'm asking you to convince me. Look, I think point guard is the most important position in college basketball and for the life of me I don't know why Buzz went down that path.
I look at Martin's record and he seems qualified, seems competent, but so do many others. I'm just curious why so many back him as hard as they do and if they didn't make the play-in game this year, would this discussion be going on at all?
Tennessee fans aren't dumb, they've had some good college basketball teams there off and on over the years. I was surprised how many of them wanted him out. The Bruce Pearl thing is understood, but as much as people here were not thrilled with Buzz this year, less than 5% wanted him gone. That percentage seemed to be a lot higher with CM last year and this year until the end. Why? Is it simply because he wasn't Pearl? Or something else?
Are these not fair questions to ask?
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And Kansas lost to TCU last year with way more than 2 five star recruits on board. And TCU makes TAMU look like worldbeaters.
Just like you can't zero in on a three game winning streak in March, you can't zero in on two bad losses.
Fair point, that's why I put the smiley face there.
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A Marquette fan who doesn't know who Broeker is, but thinks he/she knows the best choice for our next HC?
Thanks for the laugh.
I didn't realize that was a prereq to have an opinion on the matter
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I didn't realize that was a prereq to have an opinion on the matter
There are no prerequisites, but it says a lot about how much someone knows about MU hoops. Anyone who doesn't know who Broeker is hasn't been paying very close attention, so it's amazing that they would have such a strong opinion on the next HC.
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I didn't realize that was a prereq to have an opinion on the matter
Not a pre-requisite, but come on... this guy shows up 5 days ago and has been averaging over 60 posts/day pushing Martin. Something is fishy.
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MARTIN PROS:
Professional playing experience (NBA and overseas - to include the BUCKS)
Successful college basketball experience (back to back Big Ten titles and an elite 8)
Successful assistant coaching resume (at Purdue and Hall of famer Gene Keady - one elite 8 and a few second round appearances)
Took Missouri State from a dump to winning the MVC regular season in just three seasons.
Took over for Tennessee amidst serious turmoil and improved record over 3 years
Solid recruiting efforts at Tennesee;
Solid tourney success final year
Head coaching experience at BCS level school.
SOMEONE HELP WITH THE CONS
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Not a pre-requisite, but come on... this guy shows up 5 days ago and has been averaging over 60 posts/day pushing Martin. Something is fishy.
Yup.
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Shaka's team wasn't a play-in this year and has put 3 teams in since that one year.
Nobody would consider him the top young coaching prospect in the country if not for that Final Four run. He'd just be a good young coach who took over a solid program built by Jeff Capel and Anthony Grant, and kept it a solid program. He'd be a guy with a 2-3 tournament record.
He'd be Ben Jacobson, and not a serious candidate for jobs like UCLA.
On Hubbs and Stokes, is it fair to ask why a team with two 5 star players had to get in to the NCAA tournament as a play-in?
Sure, it's fair to ask anything you want.
Not every five-star recruit becomes a star, much less an instant star.
Kentucky had several 5-star recruits last year .... and didn't make the tournament.
The 2010 UNC team featuring 5-star guys like John Henson, Tyler Zeller, Larry Drew and Ed Davis played in the NIT.
NC State also appeared in a play-in game this year .... with two five-star recruits.
Honestly, the 5 star recruits I'm not super wild about. Too many of them leaving early, prima donnas, etc.
So, you're not super wild about them in this post, but in a previous post you call out Martin for not landing "a bevy" of them.
Got it.
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He has improved every single year at both schools. Missouri stayed was a mess when he took over. They ended as a top 25 RPI team.
At Tennessee 7 of the 10 returning players left when he was hired. He improved every year. Upward Trajectory everywhere he has been.
Not to pick too many nits, but when he left Missouri State, they were 39th in RPI. The year prior, they were 74th. I realize WikiPedia says they were 25th, but they weren't
http://web1.ncaa.org/weeklyrpi/templateMBB.jsp?s=1&y=2010
http://www.warrennolan.com/basketball/2011/rpi
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He has improved every single year at both schools. Missouri stayed was a mess when he took over. They ended as a top 25 RPI team.
At Tennessee 7 of the 10 returning players left when he was hired. He improved every year. Upward Trajectory everywhere he has been.
I don't know if I think he is the best option but I realize that other than Shaka, I have lots of question marks with all the remaining viable candidates.
What I like about Martin is that his teams have improved year over year and from beginning of the year to the end of the year. He took one crappy team and made them good and took one that was in disarray and got them into the tournament. Not an impact hire but I can't say with certainty that Howland or anyone else is either.
Howland was fired from his last gig and his trend was definitely downhill unlike Martins. My other concerns with Howland is it sounds like he is a pain to work for and not a players coach. I think we have a greater chance to keep our nucleus of players with Martin over Howland and I dont want to see a rebuilding project. So, in other words, it is not a slam dunk one way or another no matter who we hire.
To ask Chicos, what was Danny Manning before this year and his name is mentioned on these boards? What was Archie Miller before barely making the tourny and getting to the Elite 8 this year? What has Wojo ever done as a coach? What was Crean before we hired him? What was Buzz before we hired him?
That being said, there are countless examples of coaches who didn't have GREAT success at their original head coaching gigs that ended up being damn good coaches and Martin has been successful so that is a plus.
I trust in Cords to make the best coaching selection for MU. It might or might not work out, but if Martin is hired, I am all aboard the Martin bandwagon until he loses our first recruit and then that first game..........just kidding but I know many on these boards will rip his head off when it happens.
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I didn't realize that was a prereq to have an opinion on the matter
RIGHT
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Martin would be an excellence choice. I hope we can sign him up soon.
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As I sit here right now, I am not a "Martin backer." Nor am I a Martin critic. I am a Marquette backer and will support the team regardless.
I can look at every single candidate -- including Shaka, whose NCAA tourney record has declined fairly significantly each year since VCU's FF run -- and pick some scabs if I want to.
I am choosing not to prejudge any of these guys. Each has strengths and weaknesses, merits and question marks.
What any of us thinks doesn't matter one I iota, so why get all worked up about it? None of us knows more about each candidate and about the entire process than the decision-makers, anyway. Of course we have opinions and it's fun to express them. But saying stuff like, "If you think Martin will be a good coach you are an idiot" is dopey, ill-informed drivel. It adds nothing to the conversation.
No matter whom we select, I will support him and our basketball program. That doesn't mean I won't have opinions about recruiting, strategy, etc., as situations present themselves down the line. It just means I have learned not to stress out about things I can't control and also have learned to try not to make judgments out of ignorance.
Go Marquette!
One of the only logical posts I have seen in days. I agree.
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Shaka's team wasn't a play-in this year and has put 3 teams in since that one year.
On Hubbs and Stokes, is it fair to ask why a team with two 5 star players had to get in to the NCAA tournament as a play-in? Can you imagine a 5 star recruit at MU that scored 5 points per game like Hubbs did? I can imagine the questioning....plus only played 18 minutes a game.....sound familiar?
Honestly, the 5 star recruits I'm not super wild about. Too many of them leaving early, prima donnas, etc.
Let's not forget the fact that Stokes blew the game against Michigan, by being called for an offensive foul with 8 seconds left. The guy was double covered and still didn't try to pass the ball. I've been reading that NBA scouts are scared of his decision making and not being polished enough offensively. Hubbs and Stokes being 5 stars and not developing is a knock against Martin's player development.
Other than that, the seniors on the team were Bruce Pearl's guys and not Martin's. Remember, Bruce Weber took Illinois to the championship game with Bill Self's players. After that, Weber could fill the shelf with decent players and was fired. I'm afraid that same scenario will happen with Martin. He's riding the coattails of Bruce Pearl's recruiting efforts.
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I don't have that opinion at all. You're awfully sensitive. I'm asking you to convince me. Look, I think point guard is the most important position in college basketball and for the life of me I don't know why Buzz went down that path.
I look at Martin's record and he seems qualified, seems competent, but so do many others. I'm just curious why so many back him as hard as they do and if they didn't make the play-in game this year, would this discussion be going on at all?
Tennessee fans aren't dumb, they've had some good college basketball teams there off and on over the years. I was surprised how many of them wanted him out. The Bruce Pearl thing is understood, but as much as people here were not thrilled with Buzz this year, less than 5% wanted him gone. That percentage seemed to be a lot higher with CM last year and this year until the end. Why? Is it simply because he wasn't Pearl? Or something else?
Are these not fair questions to ask?
I got u. You seem pretty fair, unlike MOST of the other posters. Respect
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MARTIN PROS:
Professional playing experience (NBA and overseas - to include the BUCKS)
Successful college basketball experience (back to back Big Ten titles and an elite 8)
Successful assistant coaching resume (at Purdue and Hall of famer Gene Keady - one elite 8 and a few second round appearances)
Took Missouri State from a dump to winning the MVC regular season in just three seasons.
Took over for Tennessee amidst serious turmoil and improved record over 3 years
Solid recruiting efforts at Tennesee;
Solid tourney success final year
Head coaching experience at BCS level school.
SOMEONE HELP WITH THE CONS
The PROS would outweigh the CONS by a lot!
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So, you're not super wild about them in this post, but in a previous post you call out Martin for not landing "a bevy" of them.
Got it.
I called out Martin for not landing a bevy of 5 star recruits? Hmm...no I didn't. Please re-read what I said, it was in response to that poster who said he lands a bunch of 5 star players. I didn't call him out at all, I asked (form of a question) if he had a bevy of 5 star recruits he had landed. Seems you didn't get it. :D
Nobody would consider him the top young coaching prospect in the country if not for that Final Four run. He'd just be a good young coach who took over a solid program built by Jeff Capel and Anthony Grant, and kept it a solid program. He'd be a guy with a 2-3 tournament record.
He'd be Ben Jacobson, and not a serious candidate for jobs like UCLA.
No question the Final Four run bought him credibility.
Sure, it's fair to ask anything you want.
Not every five-star recruit becomes a star, much less an instant star.
Kentucky had several 5-star recruits last year .... and didn't make the tournament.
The 2010 UNC team featuring 5-star guys like John Henson, Tyler Zeller, Larry Drew and Ed Davis played in the NIT.
NC State also appeared in a play-in game this year .... with two five-star recruits.
Agreed
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There is no perfect choice at this point. Heck, a case can be made that Shaka isn't all that. It is clear that whomever MU is able to land will be a disappointment to many. Coach Martin is probably not my first choice. Depending on the assistant and the program, I am comfortable with an assistant.
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There is no perfect choice at this point. Heck, a case can be made that Shaka isn't all that. It is clear that whomever MU is able to land will be a disappointment to many. Coach Martin is probably not my first choice. Depending on the assistant and the program, I am comfortable with an assistant.
Go the assistant route. Martin has established that he's flawed.
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Well crap, having Martin's team lose to them twice with two 5 star recruits is a little concerning. ;)
Again, one of them (Hubbs) had season-ending surgery after 12 games.
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Go the assistant route. Martin has established that he's flawed.
So, your criteria or sorry, criterion, is Jesus?
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For the Martin backers, if UT doesn't make the play-in game.....you still supporting him for the coach?
How much of your support is based on the three games won in the NCAA tournament?
Curious more than anything
Yes. I am not a backer, but he has a good body of work. In addition, Marquette is past the point of hiring an assistant coach. It is time to play with the big folks.
As a footnote, if you ever saw how hard Martin played, coupled with his over-coming serious health problems, one can only conclude that he a "tuff muther."
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MARTIN PROS:
Professional playing experience (NBA and overseas - to include the BUCKS)
Successful college basketball experience (back to back Big Ten titles and an elite 8)
Successful assistant coaching resume (at Purdue and Hall of famer Gene Keady - one elite 8 and a few second round appearances)
Took Missouri State from a dump to winning the MVC regular season in just three seasons.
Took over for Tennessee amidst serious turmoil and improved record over 3 years
Solid recruiting efforts at Tennesee;
Solid tourney success final year
Head coaching experience at BCS level school.
SOMEONE HELP WITH THE CONS
Those are fair PROs. I'll take a crack at the CONS, but that's not because I don't think he is a viable candidate, I'm merely trying to be objective. I struggle when someone thinks a candidate only has pros...no one has only pros.
So here goes
CONS
One NCAA appearance in 6 years of coaching.
Some want to argue his teams have gotten better each year, is this based on record? That's a bit misleading as schedule matters. In RPI terms, not always the case. Same for Sagarin, etc.
Missouri State was not a dump program. In fact, when he took over they had 7 straight winning seasons. Martin's first season there they went 11-20. Now, could be lots of reasons for that.
Went to Purdue...Purdue's head coach on thin ice, Martin may not be here long if he is as good as people are suggesting
An existing fan base at his current school that have wanted him out for 2 years...why?
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Go the assistant route. Martin has established that he's flawed.
Which assistant?
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Yes. I am not a backer, but he has a good body of work. In addition, Marquette is past the point of hiring an assistant coach. It is time to play with the big folks.
As a footnote, if you ever saw how hard Martin played, coupled with his over-coming serious health problems, one can only conclude that he a "tuff muther."
Interesting - never heard of the overcoming serious health issues. Can you elaborate?
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Appreciate the feeback....hitting the slopes. Hope we have a hire everyone can get behind and be excited about. My sense is we won't, but ultimately it will take years to know.
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Not to pick too many nits, but when he left Missouri State, they were 39th in RPI. The year prior, they were 74th. I realize WikiPedia says they were 25th, but they weren't
http://web1.ncaa.org/weeklyrpi/templateMBB.jsp?s=1&y=2010
http://www.warrennolan.com/basketball/2011/rpi
Interesting. Maybe they were 25 at the time of the selection show? Guess Wikipedia isn't reliable after all :)
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Interesting. Maybe they were 25 at the time of the selection show? Guess Wikipedia isn't reliable after all :)
No, you wouldn't be able to drop that much that quickly. I think they just screwed up.
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So, your criteria or sorry, criterion, is Jesus?
No, I just see too many CRITICAL flaws with Martin.
I would have liked to see the following:
Closer games/more effort against Florida and Kentucky.
More consistent recruiting - He's all over the map, with the majority of recruits being 2-3 stars. He's landed 2 -4/5 stars, but has achieved most success with Bruce Pearl's recruits- his haven't had a significant impact.
My huge concern is that, next year, the Tennessee boards are saying that the team will not be anywhere near 20 wins with the current talent on the roster. People keep saying..... he's upward trending, but next year, that isn't the case.
Let's not forget that the 5 stars were instate recruits either...... He doesn't have a great recruiting pipeline across the country which is critical to being a consistent sweet 16 team.
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No, I just see too many CRITICAL flaws with Martin.
I would have liked to see the following:
Closer games/more effort against Florida and Kentucky.
More consistent recruiting - He's all over the map, with the majority of recruits being 2-3 stars. He's landed 2 -4/5 stars, but has achieved most success with Bruce Pearl's recruits- his haven't had a significant impact.
My huge concern is that, next year, the Tennessee boards are saying that the team will not be anywhere near 20 wins with the current talent on the roster. People keep saying..... he's upward trending, but next year, that isn't the case.
Let's not forget that the 5 stars were instate recruits either...... He doesn't have a great recruiting pipeline across the country which is critical to being a consistent sweet 16 team.
Who are you backing? Let's look at the pros/cons of that candidate.
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Interesting - never heard of the overcoming serious health issues. Can you elaborate?
He had lymphoma.
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Interesting - never heard of the overcoming serious health issues. Can you elaborate?
He had non-hodgkin lymphoma in 1997. He over came the cancer and a fund has been established at Purdue in his name for cancer research.
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Why bother playing what-ifs in sports? It's just dumb.
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Good knowledge, thanks Jet & Utica
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I am going to back whomever MU hires. I assume they are making the best effort to get the best coach possible. Wishing they hired someone else (unless you know that person would have actually taken the job) is just a waste of time. What is important to me is how many of the returning players he keeps and how many of the new recruits he keeps. What I do not know is whether any hire would result in a player like Hill staying or going. However, 3 or 4 recruits changing their mind would not be a good start. I would be very happy, if all the current players stay.
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Who are you backing? Let's look at the pros/cons of that candidate.
I think in order to select a candidate, you have to eliminate the most doubt about them.
At this point,
Javall Robinson - very creative with his guards x's and o's, plus can recruit well. Great guard play will always take you far in the tourney. Look at Uconn. Plus, look at MU. No guards = dismal season. Whenever we have a had a stud at guard, we have done well.
Collins - Disciplined coach, runs a clean program and is getting 3 and 4 star recruits @ Northwestern. That is a very tough thing to do! 2014's recruiting class is the best class Northwestern has ever had!!!
Recruiting and X's and O's. Those are my top 2 qualifications. With Howland and Martin, I can point out flaws concerning those 2 categories. I would, for the record, take Howland over Martin in a heartbeat.
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I think in order to select a candidate, you have to eliminate the most doubt about them.
Javall Robinson - very creative with his guards x's and o's, plus can recruit well. Great guard play will always take you far in the tourney. Look at Uconn. Plus, look at MU. No guards = dismal season. Whenever we have a had a stud at guard, we have done well.
Is that supposed to be LaVall Jordan?
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I think in order to select a candidate, you have to eliminate the most doubt about them.
At this point,
Javall Robinson - very creative with his guards x's and o's, plus can recruit well. Great guard play will always take you far in the tourney. Look at Uconn. Plus, look at MU. No guards = dismal season. Whenever we have a had a stud at guard, we have done well.
Collins - Disciplined coach, runs a clean program and is getting 3 and 4 star recruits @ Northwestern. That is a very tough thing to do! 2014's recruiting class is the best class Northwestern has ever had!!!
Recruiting and X's and O's. Those are my top 2 qualifications. With Howland and Martin, I can point out flaws concerning those 2 categories. I would, for the record, take Howland over Martin in a heartbeat.
Collins isn't leaving NU after one year.
Plus, all former Duke assistants suck (or so I'm told).
Who is Javall Robinson?
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Is that supposed to be LaVall Jordan?
Thank you for the correction. JaVall Robinson....lmao. Cliff Robinson was mentioned on the radio and I typed Robinson.
LaVall Jordan !!!
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Thank you for the correction. JaVall Robinson....lmao. Cliff Robinson was mentioned on the radio and I typed Robinson.
LaVall Jordan !!!
Honest question - Did you know who Lavall Jordan was before this coaching search began?
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Not a pre-requisite, but come on... this guy shows up 5 days ago and has been averaging over 60 posts/day pushing Martin. Something is fishy.
Didn't realize that. Doesn't influence my opinion of a coach. But sure is interesting
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Why bother playing what-ifs in sports? It's just dumb.
I think CBB is just trying to point out to look at a body of work for a coach vs. short term success.
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I think CBB is just trying to point out to look at a body of work for a coach vs. short term success.
What if Hubbs doesn't get injured early in the season? Does that petition even start? Is Martin even an option at this point?
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For one, he will start his BEST five players. He is able to recruit 5 star players and hes a better x's and o's coach.
To say Martin recruits 5 star players is stretching the truth to try and fit your argument. Stokes was a Pearl recruit that Martin was able to retain, and Hubbs is a 4 star recruit according to ESPN. He is listed two spots below JJJ in the top 100 for 2013. The vast majority of the players he's brought into the Tennessee program have been 2 and 3 star players. Stop bending the truth when you're trying to make your point.
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Honest question - Did you know who Lavall Jordan was before this coaching search began?
LaVall Jordan - Yes, I took notice last year with the phenomenal play of Trey Burke. Jordan has become more intriguing as that he has helped fill Burke's void, quite nicely. As I said before, guard play impresses me most. Jordan seems to know how to develop guards quite well. He's had a nice 2 year stretch. Although, I'm curious as to why butler didn't hire him.
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To say Martin recruits 5 star players is stretching the truth to try and fit your argument. Stokes was a Pearl recruit that Martin was able to retain, and Hubbs is a 4 star recruit according to ESPN. He is listed two spots below JJJ in the top 100 for 2013. The vast majority of the players he's brought into the Tennessee program have been 2 and 3 star players. Stop bending the truth when you're trying to make your point.
So the dude made the Sweet 16 with a bunch of two- and three-star recruits?
Must be a good coach.
As for Stokes, he only verballed to Pearl as a junior. Martin had to re-recruit him for months, even after Stokes said the firing of Pearl had him leaning against Tennessee. So that was a legit get by Martin.
For the record - just going off Rivals here - none of Martin's Tennessee recruits were two stars.
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So the dude made the Sweet 16 with a bunch of two- and three-star recruits?
Must be a good coach.
As for Stokes, he only verballed to Pearl as a junior. Martin had to re-recruit him for months, even after Stokes said the firing of Pearl had him leaning against Tennessee. So that was a legit get by Martin.
For the record - just going off Rivals here - none of Martin's Tennessee recruits were two stars.
Just did a quick glance for the last 3 years of Martin's recruiting at Tennessee (2012-2014), looks like 2 5 stars (Stokes and Hubbs) and one 2 star (Ndiaye). Everyone else was 3 star.
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So the dude made the Sweet 16 with a bunch of two- and three-star recruits?
Must be a good coach.
As for Stokes, he only verballed to Pearl as a junior. Martin had to re-recruit him for months, even after Stokes said the firing of Pearl had him leaning against Tennessee. So that was a legit get by Martin.
For the record - just going off Rivals here - none of Martin's Tennessee recruits were two stars.
The players that played the majority of time were Pearl's guys. Josh Richardson is the only one if his recruits that's developed into a solid player so far.
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Okay guys, I'm a die hard UT fan and alumni, and watch just about every second of every game and here's my take on Martin: You will not find a higher quality person with more integrity than him. You never have to worry about NCAA issues with him and he will say and do all the right things. He has a great story (cancer survivor) and you cannot help but like him.
As far as coaching ability, I still think it's too early to make a definitive statement on whether or not he is a good coach. He has some very good wins at UT (inc. beating UK by 30 plus last year and UVA by 35 this year) and some awful losses (TAMU twice this year, UTEP this year, and Austin Peay among others in past seasons).
As a recruiter, I think many of you are underrating him. Jarnell Stokes was a 5-star, who Pearl initially recruited, but once Pearl left Stokes did not have UT on his list and not only did Martin get him to reconsider, but Stokes graduated high school a semester early and played for UT the second semester of what should have been his senior year of high school, which is unheard of. The other 5-star is Robert Hubbs, who had a shoulder injury this year and took a medical redshirt, so way too early to judge him. And although they are both TN guys, they are west TN guys, and for any of you who know the geography of TN, it is not exactly a hotbed for UT recruiting as a lot of these guys end up at Memphis, Ole Miss, Miss. St., Mizzou, etc. Josh Richardson has also developed into a very good player. I do have some concerns about some of the other recruits, but I think it is too early to pass judgment. I will say that this notion that Martin did it almost exclusively with Pearl's players is not true. The only 2 Pearl holdovers were McRae, who only scored 18 points total as a freshman (he averaged 18+ a game this year) and Maymon, and you guys know his story. if anything, an argument can be made that Martin actually did well developing these guys.
I didn't sign the petition, but that's not to say that I have always been happy with Martin. If he leaves for Marquette, then I probably won't lose any sleep as I think UT can hire someone just as good, if not better (early reports are Gregg Marshall would be a top target for UT). However, I think Marquette could do a lot worse than Martin too (i.e. Wojo or Green Bay's HC).
That's just my 2 cents.
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The players that played the majority of time were Pearl's guys. Josh Richardson is the only one if his recruits that's developed into a solid player so far.
Right on Heavy Gear!!! But remember though.... the Martin supporters rave how he had a Top defense and Offense via Ken Pom....
(http://d2ws0xxnnorfdo.cloudfront.net/meme/206195)[/url]
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Right on Heavy Gear!!! But remember though.... the Martin supporters rave how he had a Top defense and Offense via Ken Pom....
(http://d2ws0xxnnorfdo.cloudfront.net/meme/206195)[/url]
This is not accurate. See my email above.
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The players that played the majority of time were Pearl's guys. Josh Richardson is the only one if his recruits that's developed into a solid player so far.
Huh?
Tennessee's MPG:
1. Stokes - Martin recruit (see my earlier post and VolFan's post).
2. McRae - Pearl recruit
3. Richardson - Martin
4. Maymon - Pearl
5. Barton - Martin
6. Hubbs - Martin
7. Thompson - Martin
8. Moore - Martin
We must have very different definitions of the word "majority."
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here's my take on Martin: You will not find a higher quality person with more integrity than him. You never have to worry about NCAA issues with him and he will say and do all the right things.
I don't think these attributes can be overestimated for Lovell's first significant hire. i'm betting it'll be Martin.
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Okay guys, I'm a die hard UT fan and alumni, and watch just about every second of every game and here's my take on Martin: You will not find a higher quality person with more integrity than him. You never have to worry about NCAA issues with him and he will say and do all the right things. He has a great story (cancer survivor) and you cannot help but like him.
As far as coaching ability, I still think it's too early to make a definitive statement on whether or not he is a good coach. He has some very good wins at UT (inc. beating UK by 30 plus last year and UVA by 35 this year) and some awful losses (TAMU twice this year, UTEP this year, and Austin Peay among others in past seasons).
As a recruiter, I think many of you are underrating him. Jarnell Stokes was a 5-star, who Pearl initially recruited, but once Pearl left Stokes did not have UT on his list and not only did Martin get him to reconsider, but Stokes graduated high school a semester early and played for UT the second semester of what should have been his senior year of high school, which is unheard of. The other 5-star is Robert Hubbs, who had a shoulder injury this year and took a medical redshirt, so way too early to judge him. And although they are both TN guys, they are west TN guys, and for any of you who know the geography of TN, it is not exactly a hotbed for UT recruiting as a lot of these guys end up at Memphis, Ole Miss, Miss. St., Mizzou, etc. Josh Richardson has also developed into a very good player. I do have some concerns about some of the other recruits, but I think it is too early to pass judgment. I will say that this notion that Martin did it almost exclusively with Pearl's players is not true. The only 2 Pearl holdovers were McRae, who only scored 18 points total as a freshman (he averaged 18+ a game this year) and Maymon, and you guys know his story. if anything, an argument can be made that Martin actually did well developing these guys.
I didn't sign the petition, but that's not to say that I have always been happy with Martin. If he leaves for Marquette, then I probably won't lose any sleep as I think UT can hire someone just as good, if not better (early reports are Gregg Marshall would be a top target for UT). However, I think Marquette could do a lot worse than Martin too (i.e. Wojo or Green Bay's HC).
That's just my 2 cents.
Thanks for the input.
What is Martin's personality like? Some other Vols fan came on here saying that the guy has no fire in his belly. Or at least he doesn't show it. Admittedly I haven't watched a Vols game since he took over as coach, but from the little I have seen of him, he is 100% opposite of Buzz in terms of demeanor and mannerisms.
Not that his personality matters or anything, but I'm just curious.
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Thanks for the input.
What is Martin's personality like? Some other Vols fan came on here saying that the guy has no fire in his belly. Or at least he doesn't show it. Admittedly I haven't watched a Vols game since he took over as coach, but from the little I have seen of him, he is 100% opposite of Buzz in terms of demeanor and mannerisms.
Not that his personality matters or anything, but I'm just curious.
A lot of UT fans have complained about this over the past few years. I have never been a fan who put a lot of stock into how much emotion a coach showed on the sidelines. However, I think Martin showed a lot more fire than a lot of UT fans gave him credit for. Plus, I put a lot more stock in how hard players play for a coach and I cannot think of one time in the last 3 years where I thought effort was an issue (X's and O's may be a different story). I think I remembered hearing somewhere we had never gotten a technical since he became a HC, which is pretty amazing in 6 years, and would probably definitely make him different from your former coach.
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Huh?
Tennessee's MPG:
1. Stokes - Martin recruit (see my earlier post and VolFan's post).
2. McRae - Pearl recruit
3. Richardson - Martin
4. Maymon - Pearl
5. Barton - Martin
6. Hubbs - Martin
7. Thompson - Martin
8. Moore - Martin
We must have very different definitions of the word "majority."
This is accurate. Biggest misconception on Martin I have read so far is that he did it mostly with Pearl guys. Simply not true.
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Okay guys, I'm a die hard UT fan and alumni, and watch just about every second of every game and here's my take on Martin: You will not find a higher quality person with more integrity than him. You never have to worry about NCAA issues with him and he will say and do all the right things. He has a great story (cancer survivor) and you cannot help but like him.
As far as coaching ability, I still think it's too early to make a definitive statement on whether or not he is a good coach. He has some very good wins at UT (inc. beating UK by 30 plus last year and UVA by 35 this year) and some awful losses (TAMU twice this year, UTEP this year, and Austin Peay among others in past seasons).
As a recruiter, I think many of you are underrating him. Jarnell Stokes was a 5-star, who Pearl initially recruited, but once Pearl left Stokes did not have UT on his list and not only did Martin get him to reconsider, but Stokes graduated high school a semester early and played for UT the second semester of what should have been his senior year of high school, which is unheard of. The other 5-star is Robert Hubbs, who had a shoulder injury this year and took a medical redshirt, so way too early to judge him. And although they are both TN guys, they are west TN guys, and for any of you who know the geography of TN, it is not exactly a hotbed for UT recruiting as a lot of these guys end up at Memphis, Ole Miss, Miss. St., Mizzou, etc. Josh Richardson has also developed into a very good player. I do have some concerns about some of the other recruits, but I think it is too early to pass judgment. I will say that this notion that Martin did it almost exclusively with Pearl's players is not true. The only 2 Pearl holdovers were McRae, who only scored 18 points total as a freshman (he averaged 18+ a game this year) and Maymon, and you guys know his story. if anything, an argument can be made that Martin actually did well developing these guys.
I didn't sign the petition, but that's not to say that I have always been happy with Martin. If he leaves for Marquette, then I probably won't lose any sleep as I think UT can hire someone just as good, if not better (early reports are Gregg Marshall would be a top target for UT). However, I think Marquette could do a lot worse than Martin too (i.e. Wojo or Green Bay's HC).
That's just my 2 cents.
I'd love to see Marquette target Gregg Marshall....it wouldn't surprise me to see us sign Martin and you guys get Marshall...in fact, it would be poetic
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I'd love to see Marquette target Gregg Marshall....it wouldn't surprise me to see us sign Martin and you guys get Marshall...in fact, it would be poetic
Know your sick of me saying it...but he doesn't pass the sniff test
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Know your sick of me saying it...but he doesn't pass the sniff test
UT interviewed him the last two times we had coaching searches and rumors are we passed on him twice, so there might be something to this.
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Martin does have the third best record over the last three years behind only Donovan and calipari fwiw. I found that to pretty interesting even though the sec isn't the juggernaut in basketball like it is in football.
I feel that he could be a good hire. It seems as though the Tennessee fan base and administration was never behind him 100% and longed for Pearl. How tough is it to coach at a football school with not much support? I am just wondering how he would do with a clean slate, at a school that is 100% committed to the basketball program, and with more resources than were at the table in his previous stops. If he doesn't succeed it is on him. But he could very possibly be the right fit at Marquette.
Not saying he is right choice on wrong choice but I am starting to warm up to seeing him at marquette. Whomever marquette chooses, will have my 100% support and wish nothing but the best. And if that makes me a loop aid drinker so be it.