Every player on our team must shoot 100 free throws every day

[Dr. Blackheart]

The NCAA limits structured practice times today.  Players have access to the Al 24/7/365 to go shoot their free throws, though. Team time is better spent practicing team defense.

On another note, our opponents are shooting 60.2%.  

[Tugg Speedman]

I have neither complained about this team's free throw shooting, nor suggested that MU use precious team practice time to practice free throws. I merely pointed out that the article you cited in support of you position actually contradicts your position. If I didn't already understand that practicing free throws will, in fact, improve performance, your article certainly would have convinced me.

That said, tonight's game aside, I really don't have too much of a problem with this team's free throw shooting and I think Buzz has more important things to work on. But, I hope the players will take it upon themselves to practice more free throws because, as the article you quoted makes clear, it will improve their performance.

Ok, let me try this ...

The article points out their is a hard ceiling around 69% for D1 players.  Practice will get TEAMS (and other large groups, like conferences, but not individuals) to around 69%.  When you get to that level, extra practice is really not going to take you much higher.  Maybe to 70% or 71%, but not 85%.  That extra time for 1% or 2% more is not worth it.

Since we are a 69% FT shooting team this year, whatever we are doing is good enough.  It got us to that ceiling.  No more than whatever we are doing needs to be done.

[StillAWarrior]

Ok, let me try this ...

The article points out their is a hard ceiling around 69% for D1 players.  Practice will get TEAMS (and other large groups, like conferences, but not individuals) to around 69%.  When you get to that level, extra practice is really not going to take you much higher.  Maybe to 70% or 71%, but not 85%.  That extra time for 1% or 2% more is not worth it.

Since we are a 69% FT shooting team this year, whatever we are doing is good enough.  It got us to that ceiling.  No more than whatever we are doing needs to be done.

As a practical matter, I don't disagree with this because they're probably not going to practice enough to get a huge improvement (but even an attainable 71% could be significant). But that's not really what the article says. It says nothing about a hard ceiling and aside from briefly mentioning that practice DOES improve performance, it really doesn't address practice.  As I said in another post, I suspect that the reason FT percentages haven't increased over the years is that practice habits haven't changed much.

But, i strongly suspect that if Buzz decided to spend 50% of the team's practice time on FTs and required the players to spend 2 additional hours each day shooting FTs, the team's FT percentage would go up (assuming they did not all transfer). The reason?  Muscle memory. You may think it would be a waste of time to spend team practice time on FTs (and I agree), but it's absolutely foolish to reject the concept of muscle memory as a bunch of junk.

Answer honestly:  if the NCAA made a rule change that stated that FTs would count for 10 points each, what do you think would happen to FT percentages (assuming that the number of fouls remained constant, however unlikely that assumption may be)?

[JakeBarnes]

If I recall correctly, Weber at U of Illinois used to make the team do windsprints at the end of practice to tire them out and follow them with free throws. To a degree that simulated the utter exhaustion they would face in late game situations. I am a proponent of this approach.

[Dr. Blackheart]

If I recall correctly, Weber at U of Illinois used to make the team do windsprints at the end of practice to tire them out and follow them with free throws. To a degree that simulated the utter exhaustion they would face in late game situations. I am a proponent of this approach.

 

U of I is at 69.3%.  Weber's teams had a few years at 71% but many others in the low 60%.

Wisky is 80%, Duke 75.5%, Gtown is 73.1%, ND 73.3%, Nova is 77%...but then Kansas is 65.4%, Syracuse is 66.3%, Pitt is 65.9%, I4 is 68.7, MSU is 66.1%, UNC is 63.6%. What is common at the top are teams with great shooters and experienced upperclassmen. 

btw, MU has been second in the BE the last couple of years--with great shooters and experienced upperclassmen. 

[JakeBarnes]

 

U of I is at 69.3%.  Weber's teams had a few years at 71% but many others in the low 60%.

Wisky is 80%, Duke 75.5%, Gtown is 73.1%, ND 73.3%, Nova is 77%...but then Kansas is 65.4%, Syracuse is 66.3%, Pitt is 65.9%, I4 is 68.7, MSU is 66.1%, UNC is 63.6%. What is common at the top are teams with great shooters and experienced upperclassmen. 

btw, MU has been second in the BE the last couple of years--with great shooters and experienced upperclassmen. 

I agree a lot with your last statement concerning experience. As for Weber's practice wit the ft drill now, I don't know if it still exists. I was just drawing on memory of a story I read about the Final Four team that played NC in the championship.

[Dr. Blackheart]

I agree a lot with your last statement concerning experience. As for Weber's practice wit the ft drill now, I don't know if it still exists. I was just drawing on memory of a story I read about the Final Four team that played NC in the championship.

I agree...I think Duke does that as well, I believe, if not CTC. Just pointing out it is a mixed bag science and Buzz has had a good track record --whatever he is or isn't doing.  At UNO, his team was also above average at 71.4%. 

[BuzzSucksSucks]

There is a difference between statistics analyzing groups vs. statistics that apply to actual people.  Thomas Sowell writes about this in Intellectuals and Society. For example, when you read an editorial that claims that the gap between the rich and the poor is growing, "the actual empirical evidence cited has been about what has been happening over time to statistical categories--and that turns out to be the direct opposite of what has happened over time to flesh-and-blood human beings, most of whom move from one category to another over time."  In other words, statistics revealing that free throw averages haven't improved in the past 50 years might be mind boggling, but, in this specific case, it applies to basketball leagues, and not to the potential of one person to improve.   

[Tugg Speedman]

Answer honestly:  if the NCAA made a rule change that stated that FTs would count for 10 points each, what do you think would happen to FT percentages (assuming that the number of fouls remained constant, however unlikely that assumption may be)?

They would go up but not for the reason you think.  If we can agree that some guys are better at FTs than others then the game would complete change (think about what you are asking).  We would recruit players that can hit 95% of their FTs even if they are marginal at other aspect of the game.  If FTs counted for 10 points, we would have a completely different roster.

Lastly, if FTs counted for 10 points, the highest paid player in the NBA, the guy that would have "taken his game to South Beach" would be Steve Novak.

[MerrittsMustache]

They would go up but not for the reason you think.  If we can agree that some guys are better at FTs than others then the game would complete change (think about what you are asking).  We would recruit players that can hit 95% of their FTs even if they are marginal at other aspect of the game.  If FTs counted for 10 points, we would have a completely different roster.

Lastly, if FTs counted for 10 points, the highest paid player in the NBA, the guy that would have "taken his game to South Beach" would be Steve Novak.

Teams would also spend a lot of time practicing dunks and lay-ups. Since no one would want to foul, every game would turn into a lay-up drill. God forbid you foul someone and they convert the old fashioned 12-point play 

[Tugg Speedman]

As a practical matter, I don't disagree with this because they're probably not going to practice enough to get a huge improvement (but even an attainable 71% could be significant).

Actually a move from 69.3% to 71% is meaningless?  And how much time you want to spend to get this? (Answer zero)

Through the WVU game MU attempted 343 FTs.  If their average moved from 69.3% (current) to 71%, they would have made an extra 6 FTs this entire season (5.8 to be exact).  Why is this significant?  Junior nearly wiped out this advantage by allowing one four point play against Rutgers.

[StillAWarrior]

Actually a move from 69.3% to 71% is meaningless?  And how much time you want to spend to get this? (Answer zero)

Through the WVU game MU attempted 343 FTs.  If their average moved from 69.3% (current) to 71%, they would have made an extra 6 FTs this entire season (5.8 to be exact).  Why is this significant?  Junior nearly wiped out this advantage by allowing one four point play against Rutgers.

You would agree, wouldn't you, that if two of those additional free throws came in a one point win, it would be quite significant?

And you continue to miss the point that nobody has suggested spending practice time on this.  Did you read the article the other day that someone posted about Wesley?  How he wanted to improve his dribbling so he spent an hour each morning before class practicing.  Do you think this might have have something to do with his current success?  I do.

I get that you think the team shouldn't waste team practice time practicing free throws.  You've made that clear.  However, you also claimed that practicing will not lead to improvement, and that the concept of muscle memory is "junk."  Since you've continually avoided revisiting those two issues or responding to questions that relate to those issues, I'm going to assume that you now realize how absurd those statements were.

[MU Avenue]

Throw out all of the studies and statistics and admit that as a team, Marquette would benefit from making more free throws.

In close games, free throws can be ALL the difference. My point when starting this thread was that too many Marquette players are fair or poor from the free throw line.

I could not care less what other teams are doing from the line. I only care that when shooting two free throws, many of our players miss one or both. That is not acceptable on a team that seeks to thrive in the Big East.

Some here claim to believe there is little value in the repetition that comes with shooting a couple of hundred free throws every day. I cannot pretend to understand that logic. I can only say that I am glad none of you is coaching my kids.

Whatever the stats and studies show, Marquette need get better from the free throw line. That will only happen through practice, practice, practice.

[Dr. Blackheart]

Throw out all of the studies and statistics and admit that as a team, Marquette would benefit from making more free throws.

In close games, free throws can be ALL the difference. My point when starting this thread was that too many Marquette players are fair or poor from the free throw line.

I could not care less what other teams are doing from the line. I only care that when shooting two free throws, many of our players miss one or both. That is not acceptable on a team that seeks to thrive in the Big East.

Some here claim to believe there is little value in the repetition that comes with shooting a couple of hundred free throws every day. I cannot pretend to understand that logic. I can only say that I am glad none of you is coaching my kids.

Whatever the stats and studies show, Marquette need get better from the free throw line. That will only happen through practice, practice, practice.

No one that I see claims that practicing free throws isn't important...what some of us are discussing is about is how you practice free throws, with the implication that Buzz's philosophy doesn't work vs. others. I argue that during structured team practice, I would prefer our team practices team defense predominately over shooting "hundreds of free throws".  

Other great coaches are mentioned as their results on free throws are different.  Fact is, Buzz's teams are and have been above the norm.  Yesterday, two underclass guards, who are not great shooters to start with, clanked their free throws in a hostile environment they are not used to playing in.  Our senior guard, who missed most of the game and played on one leg due to a thigh injury that prevented him from bending, also clanked two free throws.  The majority of the team shot at a very high rate.  
 
Conclusion:  MU must be doing something right in practice on free throws...the new guys and those playing on one leg, need to improve their shot--free throws or from the field.  Buzz: spend team time improving team defense.

[Tugg Speedman]

Avenue ...

Let's try again ....

MU shoots 68.5% (now updated through Rutgers) as a team this year.  Long-term averages (the article above) shows that D1 players average about 69%.  MU is an average FT team.

Your statement that "too many Marquette players are fair or poor from the free throw line" is not correct.


Player                 Minutes   FTA   FTM   FT%
Jimmy Butler           489   91   71   78.0%
Darius Johnson-Odom   417   72   53   73.6%
Vander Blue                 396   47   31   66.0%
Jae Crowder           382   42   25   59.5%
Dwight Buycks           377   23   17   73.9%
Junior Cadougan           271   23   10   43.5%
Chris Otule                   207   22   11   50.0%
Davante Gardner           119   30   21   70.0%
Erik Williams                  98      7   5   71.4%
Joseph Fulce          80   5   5   100.0%
Reggie Smith          79   6   2   33.3%
Jamail Jones          67   3   3   100.0%
Robert Frozena          18   4   3   75.0%
Total                   3000   375   257   68.5%


Who on this list could do better and how much better could they get?  The wrong answer is everyone practices FTs 90 hours a week they would all be 95% FT shooters.  I would argue that everyone is at their ceiling and spending more time of FT practice will yield insignificant results.

If you want MU to get better at the line, tell Buzz to recruit be FT shooters.  We are what we are and our FT% is fine.  
 

 

[StillAWarrior]

They would go up but not for the reason you think.  If we can agree that some guys are better at FTs than others then the game would complete change (think about what you are asking).  We would recruit players that can hit 95% of their FTs even if they are marginal at other aspect of the game.  If FTs counted for 10 points, we would have a completely different roster.

Lastly, if FTs counted for 10 points, the highest paid player in the NBA, the guy that would have "taken his game to South Beach" would be Steve Novak.

Where would teams find this super-breed of humans that comes out of the womb with a 95% free throw percentage?  Sure, the rosters would look different, but those players would be better at free throws because they practiced free throws -- not because of some innate ability.  Coaches at all levels would spend countless hours on free throws because that would be the most important part of the game.  And they'd be foolish not to; much like they'd be foolish to devote too much practice time to FTs today.  You devote the most practice time to the most important things.

Look, it's silly for you to continue arguing that practicing a mechanical physical activity doesn't improve performance.  I don't even think you believe this.  I suspect that you've backed yourself into a corner making absurd statements (e.g., practice won't improve performance and muscle memory is "junk") and just can't bring yourself to admit you were wrong.

Two more thoughts on Novak:  1) I bet he would disagree with your position on practice/muscle memory (but perhaps not on spending time in team practices); and 2) if FT were worth 10 points (an absurd proposal for many, many reasons), Novak probably wouldn't be the highest paid player in the NBA, it would probably be Ted St. Martin.  I wonder how he got so good...probably just lucky genetics.

[National Champs]

Who on this list could do better and how much better could they get?  The wrong answer is everyone practices FTs 90 hours a week they would all be 95% FT shooters.  I would argue that everyone is at their ceiling and spending more time of FT practice will yield insignificant results.

Jae can do better, he shot 76% in Juco last year. That being said I don't think practicing FTs all day will make that much of a difference. His percentage has been going up. It will likely continue to do so as he settles in a little more.

[StillAWarrior]

Who on this list could do better and how much better could they get?  The wrong answer is everyone practices FTs 90 hours a week they would all be 95% FT shooters.  I would argue that everyone is at their ceiling and spending more time of FT practice will yield insignificant results.

Vander could do better.  It has been frequently discussed on this board that Vander's mechanics are terrible.  How does one improve bad mechanics?  Learn proper mechanics and practice.

[Mayor McCheese]

Vander could do better.  It has been frequently discussed on this board that Vander's mechanics are terrible.  How does one improve bad mechanics?  Learn proper mechanics and practice.

Yes, but that is an offseason type of switch.  By no means will you want to do significant mechanic change to a players shot midseason.  From experience working with players, when you change the mechanics of a player, to start they are going to be god awful shooters, because they are getting use to the way it feels shooting that way. 

Some people on this board act as though these guys aren't told/aren't practicing free throws... they are, its absurd to think otherwise.  This is a absolute pointless topic in which sparks us just yelling at each other, it serves no purpose on this board.  It sickens me that everytime I make a stop at scoop, this is the top topic.

[MerrittsMustache]

Yes, but that is an offseason type of switch.  By no means will you want to do significant mechanic change to a players shot midseason.  From experience working with players, when you change the mechanics of a player, to start they are going to be god awful shooters, because they are getting use to the way it feels shooting that way.  

Some people on this board act as though these guys aren't told/aren't practicing free throws... they are, its absurd to think otherwise.  This is a absolute pointless topic in which sparks us just yelling at each other, it serves no purpose on this board.  It sickens me that everytime I make a stop at scoop, this is the top topic.

+1

The problem started when Buzz stated publicly that MU doesn't practice FTs. In doing so, he was assuming that the MU fan base recognized that NCAA teams have a limited amount of time to practice and that Buzz was not going to use any of that valuable time to practice FTs. Unfortunately, it devolved into "Buzz doesn't care about FTs" and now seemingly every time MU misses a FT, I hear some from the crowd yell something about the need for Buzz to practice FTs. In other words, Buzz gave the MU fanbase more credit that they (I guess, we) deserve.

[Da 'Lanche]

Pro golfers practice hundreds of putts a day....but when they are standing over an 8 footer on the 18th of Augusta...the most important muscle memory is in their sphincters.    At some point practice has a ceiling effect and it becomes a matter of what is the makeup of the dude between the ears.   

[Tugg Speedman]

The problem started when Buzz stated publicly that MU doesn't practice FTs. In doing so, he was assuming that the MU fan base recognized that NCAA teams have a limited amount of time to practice and that Buzz was not going to use any of that valuable time to practice FTs. Unfortunately, it devolved into "Buzz doesn't care about FTs" and now seemingly every time MU misses a FT, I hear some from the crowd yell something about the need for Buzz to practice FTs. In other words, Buzz gave the MU fanbase more credit that they (I guess, we) deserve.

+1

I've been trying to argue (in vain I suppose) that what Buzz is doing is fine.

[MU Avenue]

How on Earth can anyone argue against the importance of high-level basketball players being able to make free throws?

Or that practicing anything makes most people better at it, whatever “it” is?

This debate ignores the obvious: Marquette misses too many free throws, especially in key situations.

Perhaps this can be improved upon by having our players shoot a lot more free throws in non-game situations.

I have never heard such ridiculous arguments against the value of practice and repetition as means to getting better at something.

[NersEllenson]

Yes because after 50 years no one has figured out a better way to do it so no one devotes any more time to it than they did in 1960.

As the article said D1 players shoot 69%.  We are shooting 69% this year.  Again I ask, if we practice with all the goofy sirens and running until you're out of breath, we are only going to improve a few percent.  That's meaningless and then when Junior misses another late game FT, you'll scream we are wasting or time doing all that.

Our FT% is what it is.  Accept it and move on.

Agree 100% - To think shooting 100 free throws a day is going to take a 65% shooter to an 85% shooter is ridiculous.  As you mention..maybe you can get someone from 65% to 70% but even that bump is basically insignificant.  50 years of data and no "lift" in the make percentage.  It is what it is.  Everyone of us gets annoyed at missed free throws at the end of games..but put into proper perspective (which is lacking by some here), MU shoots free throws at or above the national average for the last 7 years.  As has been mentioned..look at our opposition...Rutgers was 4 of 11 last night.  For the season our opposition is shooting 60% from the line..

[National Champs]

How on Earth can anyone argue against the importance of high-level basketball players being able to make free throws?

Or that practicing anything makes most people better at it, whatever “it” is?

This debate ignores the obvious: Marquette misses too many free throws, especially in key situations.

Perhaps this can be improved upon by having our players shoot a lot more free throws in non-game situations.

I have never heard such ridiculous arguments against the value of practice and repetition as means to getting better at something.

No one is arguing that practice doesn't make a player better. The thing with FT practice is that it takes a lot of practice to see a small amount of improvement %wise. If we are going to practice FTs more what do you suggest we practice less? That practice time has to come from somewhere. Right now Buzz allocates practice time in the best way he sees fit.