hate to say it..

[NotAnAlum]

Regarding playing E. Williams I just don't see putting the guy in, in the championship game when he hasn't played much prior.  (remember we really didn't have a safe lead in the other 2 games and of course no one was complaining then about the rotation).  That said I think we do need to work him into the rotation so he can play in games like this in the Conf season.  I do not like playing Mo and Cubby at the same time and if you have to sit Lazar or Butler right now that is what you are left with.  I think E.W. can be an offensive threat (which Fulce is not) and could help spell the forwards which will help our rotation overall.

[#MUBB]

blaming this loss on an individual player, youre kidding me right?
we collapsed as a team, theres no need to single out a player... especially one who had a double double.
sure, his free throws would have helped, but cubi making a shot would have as well.

[GGGG]

well maybe if he played two more of HIS boys, Fulce and Williams, more than 5 mins a game. i know he cant help injuries, but you gotta be able to get all your guys to be able to contribute 10-15 mins a game. When u are thin as heck down low, u atleast throw them in the fire at the right time and let them learn the hard way, so that things like the last 10 mins of today dont happen

Makes no sense.  I'm sorry, but Fulce was useless out there tonight.  He only got minutes after Maymon banged his head and Hayward or Butler needed rest.  Williams would have been completely lost.

And I'm more worried about the lack of depth at guard anyway.

[Doctor V]

Makes no sense.  I'm sorry, but Fulce was useless out there tonight.  He only got minutes after Maymon banged his head and Hayward or Butler needed rest.  Williams would have been completely lost.

And I'm more worried about the lack of depth at guard anyway.

You make no sense, Im sorry. I am more so talking about earlier in the season, or even earlier in some of these close games in order to gain some experience so they can atleast come in for 2-3 mins at a time and give guys a rest

When I said earlier in the season that even those struggling in practice should play in blowouts i was attacked. Obviously its not ideal at this point to play Fulce and EWill big mins in close games, but its also not ideal to have guys walking around on defense and blowing 17 pt leads because there isnt another guy that can step in and play 10 mins per game.

Fulce STARTED a game a few weeks ago, now hes not good enough to play 15 mins and give guys a break? maybe cause his confidence is shot, because Id guess the kid can produce or atleast compete for 10 mins

Lack of depth at guard- u serious? Its clear that we can hang with and out-compete teams at that position, but we are thin as heck in the 4-5 positions. Acker, cubillan, DJO, buycks will be just fine most of the season... If lazar or butler get in foul trouble we are doomed with maymon, williams, fulce, mbao at this point, esp because 3 of them dont seem able enough to get 5 mins/game according to Buzz

[Rockmic87]

Our bench has to produce something...or it will be a long season if we are not getting at least 8 pts from the bench!

[bma725]

Fulce STARTED a game a few weeks ago, now hes not good enough to play 15 mins and give guys a break? maybe cause his confidence is shot, because Id guess the kid can produce or atleast compete for 10 mins

Did you miss the part about Fulce having a knee bruise that required draining fluid off his knee right after one of those games he started? 

[Doctor V]

Did you miss the part about Fulce having a knee bruise that required draining fluid off his knee right after one of those games he started? 

did you miss the part about williams or mbao playing 5 mins? maymon? also, if he can play at all im sure he can give a few more mins. Lets face it, Buzz falls in love with a rotation, and uses the other 3-4 guys so little that it ends up being to the teams detriment...

[Daniel]

This loss is not on Jimmy.  Many missed shots early in the game - when it could have been 18 - 2 if we hit them,.  To single out a single player is just wrong.  The team wins, the team loses.  The team lost.  SO did Buzz.  They left it all on the court.  End of story.  A 10 man rotation would give these guys a critical blow when they need it.

[bma725]

did you miss the part about williams or mbao playing 5 mins? maymon? also, if he can play at all im sure he can give a few more mins. Lets face it, Buzz falls in love with a rotation, and uses the other 3-4 guys so little that it ends up being to the teams detriment...

It's not about rotation, it's about ability to play at that level on the defensive end of the floor.  Right now, none of those guys can do that.  Williams doesn't have the lateral quickness to guard anyone on the perimeter and isn't big enough to guard people down low.  Mbao gets pushed around too easily.  Fulce hasn't shown that he has the ability to guard people at that high major level.  Maymon can't play without fouling, as shown by his 3 fouls in 11 minutes of playing time.  So if you put them on the floor, what ever you gain by having the other guys fresh at the end is negated by the fact that they can't defend the players they are guarding. 

We're talking about 19-23 year old kids that had no problem playing 2 games in less than 24 hours and expend more energy than this every day in practice and workouts.  Fatigue wasn't the issue, and it isn't the reason they lost the game. 

[mviale]

Guys - It was 39-24 and I turned off the TV to pick up my wife.  Sorry

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

It's not about rotation, it's about ability to play at that level on the defensive end of the floor.  Right now, none of those guys can do that.  Williams doesn't have the lateral quickness to guard anyone on the perimeter and isn't big enough to guard people down low.  Mbao gets pushed around too easily.  Fulce hasn't shown that he has the ability to guard people at that high major level.  Maymon can't play without fouling, as shown by his 3 fouls in 11 minutes of playing time.  So if you put them on the floor, what ever you gain by having the other guys fresh at the end is negated by the fact that they can't defend the players they are guarding. 

We're talking about 19-23 year old kids that had no problem playing 2 games in less than 24 hours and expend more energy than this every day in practice and workouts.  Fatigue wasn't the issue, and it isn't the reason they lost the game. 

I mostly agree with you...

However, in all fairness/unfairness, it's the head coach's job to figure out when/where to use his chess pieces properly. This might be a case where Buzz simply doesn't have enough bullets in his gun... but, personally, I'd like to see him lengthen the bench a little bit... even if it costs them a couple of baskets in the first half.

I know these guys are in great shape, but using the eye test, they were not flying around in the last 5 min. like they were in the first 5 minutes.

Zar was walking up the court, Jimmy missed a lot of free throws short, and a few times on offense they settled for an early jumper. 

With all of this said, I loved the guts they showed all tournament, and I'm more optimistic about the season.

[Doctor V]

It's not about rotation, it's about ability to play at that level on the defensive end of the floor.  Right now, none of those guys can do that.  Williams doesn't have the lateral quickness to guard anyone on the perimeter and isn't big enough to guard people down low.  Mbao gets pushed around too easily.  Fulce hasn't shown that he has the ability to guard people at that high major level.  Maymon can't play without fouling, as shown by his 3 fouls in 11 minutes of playing time.  So if you put them on the floor, what ever you gain by having the other guys fresh at the end is negated by the fact that they can't defend the players they are guarding. 

We're talking about 19-23 year old kids that had no problem playing 2 games in less than 24 hours and expend more energy than this every day in practice and workouts.  Fatigue wasn't the issue, and it isn't the reason they lost the game. 

1- how do you know if williams and mbao can guard anyone if they havent played in a game? also, what did Lazar do the last 2 posessions that either of those two couldnt?? It is better to let a 7 ft guy get uncontested shots over a 6'6 guy? I am not saying that those guys are better than Lazar, just giving an example and saying that you dont know for sure unless u play them. I highly doubt that having Ewill or mbao on the court will cost u as many points as Acker and his bunny 3 pt plays that he gives up (dont get me wrong i think he gives it his all, just costs the team easy buckets because of size)

2- fatigue WAS an issue, and anyone who saw the game knows that. Butler and DJO were visibly gassed and it caused the team to give up easy buckets at the end.

3- im not saying give those guys 25 minutes of PT. a few minutes here and there in certain situations, and Buzz might be pleasantly surprised. if the team is visibly hurt, its not difficult to pull the string, AND u have a teaching point for that kids lack of D ability

A game that I was at in Providence last yr sticks out- Buzz wasnt using Fulce or Otule at all. MU was getting whipped all game consistently down 10. For some unknown reason Buzz threw in Fulce and he was a huge sparkplug, and in my opinion one of the main reasons MU came back to win that game, even though he only played 10 or so mins....Fulce saw limited minutes the rest of the season

All Im saying is give some of those guys a chance. Even if they provide very little, or hurt the team slightly, it benefits not only them, but the rest of the team towards the end of games. Also, gives opposition something different to have to deal with, even if its a 7'2 guy with limited abilities

[Doctor V]

However, in all fairness/unfairness, it's the head coach's job to figure out when/where to use his chess pieces properly. This might be a case where Buzz simply doesn't have enough bullets in his gun... but, personally, I'd like to see him lengthen the bench a little bit... even if it costs them a couple of baskets in the first half.

I know these guys are in great shape, but using the eye test, they were not flying around in the last 5 min. like they were in the first 5 minutes.

Zar was walking up the court, Jimmy missed a lot of free throws short, and a few times on offense they settled for an early jumper. 

With all of this said, I loved the guts they showed all tournament, and I'm more optimistic about the season.

completely agree

[Daniel]

What is we would have surprised FSU with a zone on that last play, with Mbao under the basket - he may have fouled or whatever, but it would have thrown them off.  Just thinking out loud as we all do after the fact (LOL - easy to do)

[bma725]

I've been watching Erik Williams play since he was a junior in high school.  He's never shown the ability to guard players on the perimeter.  His high school coach talked about how the #1 thing he was going to need work on when he got to MU was his defense, because they had their defense set up where all he had to do was stay close to the basket and attempt to block shots.  He'd never had to contend with a guy trying to go around him on the perimeter, or bang with another guy on the post, he played the floater...a position you can't have in major d1 ball.  In his playing time so far, he's shown good offensive ability and decent shooting touch, but he couldn't defend the guys that he was guarding against low major teams, and he's shown nothing to suggest that would improve against a team at FSU's level.  Buzz has talked about EW needing to work on his defense and defensive intensity, and others close to the program have mentioned it as well.

Mbao has looked completely lost on the court defensively.  He can't play with out fouling, he can't hedge a screen properly, he can't maintain proper position because he lacks strength.  There's a reason the guy is a developmental project.  To expect anything from him this year, and likely next year is foolish.

Fatigue is not the reason they lost the game.  They lost because they passed the ball poorly and spent too much time going one on one rather than working the ball for a better shot.  They lost because they did a terrible job taking care of the ball, especially Buycks who had 5 turnovers and no assists.  They lost because Hayward had a terrible shooting first half.  They lost because a career 77% free throw shooter went 4 of 12 for the game.  They lost because their perimeter shooting which had been a strength all year was god awful.  They lost because they got a combined 43 minutes out of Acker and Cubillan, but only a total of 4 points, 3 assists, 2 turnovers and 2 rebounds.  They lost because Maymon contributed nothing but fouls in an 11 minute span.  They lost because they have no one on the roster that can guard Chris Singleton.

Fatigue is a convenient excuse that people use when their team just didn't play well and covers up what actually happened...they just didn't play to their abilities for the entire game.  For this team to win, they have to play at on the razor's edge at all times.   They can't afford to have off nights shooting, they can't afford to not hit their free throws, and they certainly can't afford to throw a guy out there for a couple of minutes just to get a rest. 

The notion that fatigue was the issue when they played better on Friday despite not having any rest and playing a tough game less than a day before is laughable, and misses the reality of what actually happened on the court.

[MUfan12]

Well said, bma. Sums up my thoughts exactly.

Especially true about their thin margin of error. Which is why I'm really concerned that the first 5 halves of this tournament might be fool's gold. To be honest, I can't see much of a remedy for long teams like that. FSU made it really tough for Acker/Cubillan to initiate the offense and reverse the ball.

[muarmy81]

A lot of people came up short in this one... Butler with the free throws, Cubillan didn't even allow a reb with his missed three's, turnovers by Acker, defense by Lazar.

The announcers said it... we looked really tired with about 5 minutes to go.  Everyone loves the eight man rotation but with three games in four days sometimes having a little more bench helps.

+1
Well said...exactly what happened.  It was a great weekend, these guys showed a lot but they just ran out of gas around the 16 minute mark in the 2nd half.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

I've been watching Erik Williams play since he was a junior in high school.  He's never shown the ability to guard players on the perimeter.  His high school coach talked about how the #1 thing he was going to need work on when he got to MU was his defense, because they had their defense set up where all he had to do was stay close to the basket and attempt to block shots.  He'd never had to contend with a guy trying to go around him on the perimeter, or bang with another guy on the post, he played the floater...a position you can't have in major d1 ball.  In his playing time so far, he's shown good offensive ability and decent shooting touch, but he couldn't defend the guys that he was guarding against low major teams, and he's shown nothing to suggest that would improve against a team at FSU's level.  Buzz has talked about EW needing to work on his defense and defensive intensity, and others close to the program have mentioned it as well.

Mbao has looked completely lost on the court defensively.  He can't play with out fouling, he can't hedge a screen properly, he can't maintain proper position because he lacks strength.  There's a reason the guy is a developmental project.  To expect anything from him this year, and likely next year is foolish.

Fatigue is not the reason they lost the game.  They lost because they passed the ball poorly and spent too much time going one on one rather than working the ball for a better shot.  They lost because they did a terrible job taking care of the ball, especially Buycks who had 5 turnovers and no assists.  They lost because Hayward had a terrible shooting first half.  They lost because a career 77% free throw shooter went 4 of 12 for the game.  They lost because their perimeter shooting which had been a strength all year was god awful.  They lost because they got a combined 43 minutes out of Acker and Cubillan, but only a total of 4 points, 3 assists, 2 turnovers and 2 rebounds.  They lost because Maymon contributed nothing but fouls in an 11 minute span.  They lost because they have no one on the roster that can guard Chris Singleton.

Fatigue is a convenient excuse that people use when their team just didn't play well and covers up what actually happened...they just didn't play to their abilities for the entire game.  For this team to win, they have to play at on the razor's edge at all times.   They can't afford to have off nights shooting, they can't afford to not hit their free throws, and they certainly can't afford to throw a guy out there for a couple of minutes just to get a rest. 

The notion that fatigue was the issue when they played better on Friday despite not having any rest and playing a tough game less than a day before is laughable, and misses the reality of what actually happened on the court.

I know you watch a lot of hoops, and i know you are close with the program, so I respect you opinion a lot.

But, my eyes were telling me that they were tired at the end of the game and it was effecting their play. They attacked and kicked the ball a ton in the first 1/2.

Late in the game, they didn't do that. Part of the reason is that FSU made an adjustment, part of the reason is that MU just didn't execute, and part of the reason is that they were tired.

I can't say that fatigue wasn't a factor, because it sure looked like it.

[MR.HAYWARD]

i agree 100% with what bma had to say....and yes Mu was tired but so was FSU.  as far as my comments of course there were alot of reasons we lost , the reason i mentioned Butler was of all the reasons it seems the simplest one that normally never happens is Butler bricking those Ft's

[GGGG]

Fatigue is not the reason they lost the game.  They lost because they passed the ball poorly and spent too much time going one on one rather than working the ball for a better shot.  They lost because they did a terrible job taking care of the ball, especially Buycks who had 5 turnovers and no assists.  They lost because Hayward had a terrible shooting first half.  They lost because a career 77% free throw shooter went 4 of 12 for the game.  They lost because their perimeter shooting which had been a strength all year was god awful.  They lost because they got a combined 43 minutes out of Acker and Cubillan, but only a total of 4 points, 3 assists, 2 turnovers and 2 rebounds.  They lost because Maymon contributed nothing but fouls in an 11 minute span.  They lost because they have no one on the roster that can guard Chris Singleton.

Lack of movement off the ball...turnovers...bad shooting...bad free throws...

Can't that all be attributed to fatigue?

[Nukem2]

i agree 100% with what bma had to say....and yes Mu was tired but so was FSU.  as far as my comments of course there were alot of reasons we lost , the reason i mentioned Butler was of all the reasons it seems the simplest one that normally never happens is Butler bricking those Ft's

But, thats where the size advantage comes in.  FSU had a huge edge there and they took advantage of it via their two big guys down the stretch.  Fatigue was an issue for a small short-handed team.  Just the facts, ma'am.

[bma725]

Lack of movement off the ball...turnovers...bad shooting...bad free throws...

Can't that all be attributed to fatigue?

If they were occurring because of fatigue, then they would have happened in the Michigan game, where the team was more fatigued, as well.  They didn't. 

[Doctor V]

I've been watching Erik Williams play since he was a junior in high school.  He's never shown the ability to guard players on the perimeter.  His high school coach talked about how the #1 thing he was going to need work on when he got to MU was his defense, because they had their defense set up where all he had to do was stay close to the basket and attempt to block shots.  He'd never had to contend with a guy trying to go around him on the perimeter, or bang with another guy on the post, he played the floater...a position you can't have in major d1 ball.  In his playing time so far, he's shown good offensive ability and decent shooting touch, but he couldn't defend the guys that he was guarding against low major teams, and he's shown nothing to suggest that would improve against a team at FSU's level.  Buzz has talked about EW needing to work on his defense and defensive intensity, and others close to the program have mentioned it as well.

Mbao has looked completely lost on the court defensively.  He can't play with out fouling, he can't hedge a screen properly, he can't maintain proper position because he lacks strength.  There's a reason the guy is a developmental project.  To expect anything from him this year, and likely next year is foolish.

Fatigue is not the reason they lost the game.  They lost because they passed the ball poorly and spent too much time going one on one rather than working the ball for a better shot.  They lost because they did a terrible job taking care of the ball, especially Buycks who had 5 turnovers and no assists.  They lost because Hayward had a terrible shooting first half.  They lost because a career 77% free throw shooter went 4 of 12 for the game.  They lost because their perimeter shooting which had been a strength all year was god awful.  They lost because they got a combined 43 minutes out of Acker and Cubillan, but only a total of 4 points, 3 assists, 2 turnovers and 2 rebounds.  They lost because Maymon contributed nothing but fouls in an 11 minute span.  They lost because they have no one on the roster that can guard Chris Singleton.

Fatigue is a convenient excuse that people use when their team just didn't play well and covers up what actually happened...they just didn't play to their abilities for the entire game.  For this team to win, they have to play at on the razor's edge at all times.   They can't afford to have off nights shooting, they can't afford to not hit their free throws, and they certainly can't afford to throw a guy out there for a couple of minutes just to get a rest. 

The notion that fatigue was the issue when they played better on Friday despite not having any rest and playing a tough game less than a day before is laughable, and misses the reality of what actually happened on the court.

the coach cannot control who hits their free throws, who turns the ball over, who commits fouls, etc within a game. What he can control is his in game substitutions and adjustments. Since all these things were going wrong dont you think that maybe it was time to try someone else, or give the guys making the mistake a short break so that they could come back in fresh?

also, isnt it the coachs job to, in 3 months, get 2 top 100 guys more ready than to only be able to produce 0 and 11 minutes of basketball?

[Hards Alumni]

the coach cannot control who hits their free throws, who turns the ball over, who commits fouls, etc within a game. What he can control is his in game substitutions and adjustments. Since all these things were going wrong dont you think that maybe it was time to try someone else, or give the guys making the mistake a short break so that they could come back in fresh?

also, isnt it the coachs job to, in 3 months, get 2 top 100 guys more ready than to only be able to produce 0 and 11 minutes of basketball?

I, for one, would take a 'tired' Jimmy Butler over a total liability freshman any day of the week.

I really cannot believe you are trying to make this argument.

3 months?  Try a month and a half of ACTUAL practice.  Contrary to what you might believe not all top 100 players even play.  Did you manage to catch Mike Snaer out there for FSU?  Do you think he had a great performance?  25 minutes and one bucket.  Snaer was a MC DONALDS ALL AMERICAN.  It is a HUGE jump from playing HS ball to playing against MEN in college.

maybe some day you will understand.

[war1980rior]

Personally, in a close game, I want experience out there in the last two minutes.  I think calling for a fresh rookie may not be the best answer.  Let the leaders finish.  They should have the experience to know they're a little gassed (a lot in this case) and dig down to find what they need to win if it is there.

Nobody feels worse about this loss than the guys who left in on the court (they did).  We should respect that and get behind them for the next game.  Our team far exceeded everyone's expectations, so the fanbase needs to move on.

Beat NC State!