Crowder with 28 and 14 last night

[AZWarrior]

Yep - I am sure looking forward to seeing Crowder play.  The guy sounds promising.   

That was what this tread was about, anyway.....

[Marquette84]

Now look at all these guys numbers - the late signing big men from last year.  Would you really rather have had one of them because they "filled a position of greatest need," or had DJO??  I suspect that our team this year would not be even close to sniffing the NCAA if we had one of these big stiffs instead of DJO.  Ultimately, if MU would have followed 84's desire and signed one of these bigs, it is highly unlikely this team would be having as good of year this year.  DJO is a critical piece of this year's team.

Nice straw man.

Let me make this clearer for you: I would rather have one of the guys I mentioned over Mbao. 

Changes your argument, doesn't it? 

Keep in mind we Otule for 3 more years, and he did show a ton of improvement early this year when he did play, over where he was a year ago.  Hopefully he can remain healthy.  Crowder is going to be a baller too..he should be about the closest thing to a Lazar replacement as you could possibly find

Otule improved enough to earn 8 mpg against 3 of the worst teams in Division 1. 

You're right that it took a "ton of improvement" to reach that point.  But ultimately, the level he's actually at is much more relevant than the amount of improvement it took to get there. 

I find it amusing that you describe as "stiffs" players who have been able to go 15-20 minutes/4-6 points/3-5 boards even against high major opposition like Kentucky/Ohio State/Washington/Gonzaga/Kstate etc., but complement the improvement of a player who averaged 8 minutes/4 points/2 boards against MD Eastern Shore, Grambling and Centenary.

Even if you want to argue that Newbill is better than any available big, the real question is whether any available big is better than Otule and/or Mbao.  I think its reasonable to conclude the answer is likely yes.

And the other question is this:  given the injury history of both Otule and Mbao, do you really think it is more important to go 4 deep at the 2 before you're 3 deep at the 5? 

[NersEllenson]

Nice straw man.

Let me make this clearer for you: I would rather have one of the guys I mentioned over Mbao. 

Changes your argument, doesn't it? 



Otule improved enough to earn 8 mpg against 3 of the worst teams in Division 1. 

You're right that it took a "ton of improvement" to reach that point.  But ultimately, the level he's actually at is much more relevant than the amount of improvement it took to get there. 

I find it amusing that you describe as "stiffs" players who have been able to go 15-20 minutes/4-6 points/3-5 boards even against high major opposition like Kentucky/Ohio State/Washington/Gonzaga/Kstate etc., but complement the improvement of a player who averaged 8 minutes/4 points/2 boards against MD Eastern Shore, Grambling and Centenary.

Even if you want to argue that Newbill is better than any available big, the real question is whether any available big is better than Otule and/or Mbao.  I think its reasonable to conclude the answer is likely yes.

And the other question is this:  given the injury history of both Otule and Mbao, do you really think it is more important to go 4 deep at the 2 before you're 3 deep at the 5? 

What is a straw man?  Please clarify.  To measure Otule's contribution over 3 games this year against the other players being discussed is pretty week.  Otule averaged about 6 minutes per game, if you want to split hairs - triple his minutes to the 18 minute category like the players you mention, and his output would be around 9 points, 7 boards.  As for Mbao, he has not shown a lot, but he does have very, very quick feet for a 7'2" man - he may eventually be a good shot blocker.  I won't argue his merits against any of the players you mentioned that were signed in the late signing period.  You can't bat 100% on all recruits, but at this point, Buzz has earned my confidence as a talent evaluator, recruiter and coach..

[RawdogDX]

Let me make this clearer for you: I would rather have one of the guys I mentioned over Mbao. 
Otule improved enough to earn 8 mpg against 3 of the worst teams in Division 1. 
Even if you want to argue that Newbill is better than any available big, the real question is whether any available big is better than Otule and/or Mbao.  I think its reasonable to conclude the answer is likely yes.

No that is not the real question.  Those two are using scholarships already.  We are talking about the handing out of the LAST scholarship.  Not Otule or Mbao.  I think we have a chance to be good next year and I think that Crowder is more likely to contribute next year than any 6'8+ kid buzz has on his radar right now.

I doubt buzz is likely to nail a 6'10+ kid who actually contributes his freshman year because those are few and far between.  There are 6'8 kids who come in and put up decent numbers but they aren't as plentiful as you seem to think. 
You may not think much of the 14 feet of pain that we'll have playing the 5 next year but to be so certain we'll land someone who can walk in and outplay them is a bit of a jump.

[Marquette84]

What is a straw man?  Please clarify. 

I said we should have used one of the last two scholarships on a big.

You responded by creating your own--that we were only talking about DJO's scholarship.

You then knocked down the straw man argument you created.

To measure Otule's contribution over 3 games this year against the other players being discussed is pretty week. 

You used the same three games to conclude that he improved tremendously.

We both have the same frame of reference. If it was enough time for you to conclude tremendous improvement, it should be good enough for me to compare actual performance. 

 Otule averaged about 6 minutes per game, if you want to split hairs - triple his minutes to the 18 minute category like the players you mention, and his output would be around 9 points, 7 boards. 

But he wasn't getting triple the minutes.

My argument is that if you can't play 18 minutes against Grambling, how are you going to play 18 versus Georgetown?

As for Mbao, he has not shown a lot, but he does have very, very quick feet for a 7'2" man - he may eventually be a good shot blocker.  I won't argue his merits against any of the players you mentioned that were signed in the late signing period. 

Why not?  You seemed quite willing to argue the merits of DJO against any of the players I mentioned.   In fact, you even started a second discussion to do just that.




 

[PE8983]

At least we will have (2) centers on the roster, despite their talent level.
Who is the true power forward on the roster?
That's right - we don't have one.  That spot will be manned by an undersized SF.

[AZWarrior]

At least we will have (2) centers on the roster, despite their talent level.
Who is the true power forward on the roster?
That's right - we don't have one.  That spot will be manned by an undersized SF.

Was Charles Barkley a PF?  I'd say yes.  And he was 6'5"-6'6", but very strong.  Sounds a lot like Crowder.  David Boone a number of years ago was about the height and weight of Crowder.  If he was on this team, we'd be in the mix for sweet 16.

Crowder has the necessary size to be an effective defender in the paint.  Hopefully he will be.  I bet we look back and judge him to be an excellent pick-up.

[Marquette84]

No that is not the real question.  Those two are using scholarships already.  We are talking about the handing out of the LAST scholarship.  Not Otule or Mbao.  I think we have a chance to be good next year and I think that Crowder is more likely to contribute next year than any 6'8+ kid buzz has on his radar right now.

They are using scholarship already.

And I agree we have a chance to be good next year.

I guess you and I disagree on where the weakest link is.  I think another big is more important than a 4th 2G. 

I doubt buzz is likely to nail a 6'10+ kid who actually contributes his freshman year because those are few and far between.  There are 6'8 kids who come in and put up decent numbers but they aren't as plentiful as you seem to think. 
You may not think much of the 14 feet of pain that we'll have playing the 5 next year but to be so certain we'll land someone who can walk in and outplay them is a bit of a jump.

You must have missed it, but I said exactly same thing much earlier in the thread.  I'll link for you:

• Yes, I agree they are few and far between. 
  

Whats funny is how this board is full of statements about Buzz's superior recruiting ability.

Yet when it comes to this thread, we get: "I doubt buzz is likely to nail a 6'10+ kid who actually contributes."

Wouldn't a truly great recruiter be able to land a 6'10" kid (juco or otherwise) who actually contributes his first year?

SOMEBODY is landing those players. 

You may not think much of the 14 feet of pain that we'll have playing the 5 next year but to be so certain we'll land someone who can walk in and outplay them is a bit of a jump.

No worse than assuming that two guys with a combined 85 minutes of playing time this year will be so solid in their play that our bigger need is a guy who will fight for minutes with Buycks and DJO (1288 combined minutes ytd).

[PE8983]

We already know that Crowder is under the impression he is playing the 2 or 3 on offense, based on quotes directly from him.

Is he also under the impression that he is going to be defending the opponent's 4 man on defense?  That's quite an assumption on your part.

[Pakuni]

Nice straw man.

Let me make this clearer for you: I would rather have one of the guys I mentioned over Mbao. 

So, based Mbao's extensive body of work and the amount of time you've spent reading statistics of mid-major players you can state with certainty those guys would have been better at MU than Yous over the next 3+ years?
Might I borrow your crystal ball some time?

You may a few years from now be proven correct, but there's no way you or anyone else here can say what the next three seasons will bring.

At the time MU he landed Mbao, we all knew he was a project from whom little could be expected this season.  And yet you're bagging on him, for all intents labeling him a poor recruiting decision, because he's proven to be exactly as advertised.

You can question Buzz for taking on a project, but you should at least do so in the context of what the roster looked like at the time he was signed. Getting little from Mbao this year was OK because we reasonably were counting on minutes in the post from the combination of Otule and McMorrow, and even some minutes down low from Maymon as a smallish 4. Heck, had McMorrow not had his issues, Mbao very well could have been a redshirt this year. Given those circumstances, it was a decent move on Buzz's part to take a flier on an athletic - but extremely raw - 7'2" kid with a lot of upside instead of a JUCO type or mid-major athlete who could offer 15/5/5.
When all is said and done, maybe Mbao never even manages to become a 15/5/5 player. But with what the staff already had in place, it wasn't an unreasonable risk to take a guy who could develop into better, maybe much better, than that over the next couple years.

Your hindsight is, as always, 20/20.  But it's unfair to criticize Buzz for a recruiting decision without at least examining that decision in the context in which it was made.

[GOMU1104]

Wouldn't a truly great recruiter be able to land a 6'10" kid (juco or otherwise) who actually contributes his first year?

SOMEBODY is landing those players. 

Didnt I already cover this?

[AZWarrior]

We already know that Crowder is under the impression he is playing the 2 or 3 on offense, based on quotes directly from him.

Is he also under the impression that he is going to be defending the opponent's 4 man on defense?  That's quite an assumption on your part.

Where would you expect him to play, on defense?

[PE8983]

"Where would you expect him to play, on defense?"

Don't know - haven't seen him play.  If he expects to play the 2 or 3 on offense, where do you think he would expect to play on defense?  I know what sounds logical, but I hope it's incorrect.  Because, we need a post defender in the worst way.

I think a lot of people on here are automatically thinking that he is our 4 man, simply because that is our need.  He may be able to play on offense the way Lazar does with Buzz's offense, but I would guess he doesn't approach Lazar's capability at defending the post.  Hope I'm wrong.

[RawdogDX]

No worse than assuming that two guys with a combined 85 minutes of playing time this year will be so solid in their play that our bigger need is a guy who will fight for minutes with Buycks and DJO (1288 combined minutes ytd).

I don't know if I'm assuming that they will be 'so solid'.  If the two of them combine for 10 and 6 that is 10 and 6 we don't have this year not to mention 5 pf.  If they aren't healthy than that sucks but we need high major players and buzz thinks this guy is one and doesn't think he can land a better one.  Crowder has enough girth to let him hang with guys an inch or two taller.  And i think our coaching staff has earned my trust in their jc selections.  Hopefully the success he has next year helps recruit a 6'8 stud to take his place in 2 years.

And he's a wing so i don't think he'll be competing with DJO, he'll be competing with JJones, JWill and Fulce for non-butler wing minutes.

[AZWarrior]

"Where would you expect him to play, on defense?"

Don't know - haven't seen him play.  If he expects to play the 2 or 3 on offense, where do you think he would expect to play on defense?  I know what sounds logical, but I hope it's incorrect.  Because, we need a post defender in the worst way.

I think a lot of people on here are automatically thinking that he is our 4 man, simply because that is our need.  He may be able to play on offense the way Lazar does with Buzz's offense, but I would guess he doesn't approach Lazar's capability at defending the post.  Hope I'm wrong.

He's 6-6, 230.  I expect Buzz will see him as a better post defender than most of the other players available to him.  I expect Buzz will utilize him as a post defender.

Am I speculating?  Are the rest of us speculating?  Well, yeah.     it is a board and all.  That's pretty much what we do here.  I'm going to continue to speculate and enjoy it.

[Marquette84]

So, based Mbao's extensive body of work and the amount of time you've spent reading statistics of mid-major players you can state with certainty those guys would have been better at MU than Yous over the next 3+ years?

You mean the research you didn't do at all when you incorrectly assumed that those players padded their stats against low-major teams and couldn't do the same against good Big East competition?

At the time MU he landed Mbao, we all knew he was a project from whom little could be expected this season.  And yet you're bagging on him, for all intents labeling him a poor recruiting decision, because he's proven to be exactly as advertised.

The problem with this is we didn't need a project.  The time to take a project is when you have Plan A already in place.  

We didn't, as you'll soon learn.

You can question Buzz for taking on a project, but you should at least do so in the context of what the roster looked like at the time he was signed. Getting little from Mbao this year was OK because we reasonably were counting on minutes in the post from the combination of Otule and McMorrow, and even some minutes down low from Maymon as a smallish 4. Heck, had McMorrow not had his issues, Mbao very well could have been a redshirt this year. Given those circumstances, it was a decent move on Buzz's part to take a flier on an athletic - but extremely raw - 7'2" kid with a lot of upside instead of a JUCO type or mid-major athlete who could offer 15/5/5.

This is incorrect.  McMorrows health was in question as early as March 16 of last year.
http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=13784.0

I'm not sure if you honestly forgot the timeframe in which Liam's health issues arose or if you intentionally left that out of your story to make it sound like Buzz was blindsided by it after he took Mbao's commitment--either way your narrative above is not the full context.  The context HAS to include the fact that Liam was no longer practicing in mid-March with a condition decsribed as "not good" following tests.

Given those circumstances (not your incomplete version), it was perhaps NOT the best time to take a flier on a project.

Your hindsight is, as always, 20/20.  But it's unfair to criticize Buzz for a recruiting decision without at least examining that decision in the context in which it was made.

All I can say is that I did consider the full context--including the serious health issue that Buzz raised on 3/16 of last year.  

Given that you didn't cite that fact, perhaps its advisable that you do the same before lecturing me.