5 year judgements and JUCO's

[tower912]

Yeah......hehheh......anyway......
One thing that got thrown around a lot when Crean left was that except in rare cases, 10 years seems to be the shelf life of a coach in one place.   In years 7-10, unless there are repeated FF's, fanbases start to think that a program has plateaued under a coach and perhaps there is someone better.    There were mutterings about that under Crean, there are mutterings about that at Pittsburg now with Dixon, at Villanova with Wright.
So, a few questions.
1.    What level is Buzz going to have to get the program to for people to not start getting restless in years 7-10?
2.   Will his persona wear thin with the MU fanbase?
3.   Do you foresee Buzz burning himself out and retiring as a young man, a la Al?

[MUCrew]

1.  I think keeping the program in the top 15 will be a determining factor for the program.  The conference accolades will probably coincide with being a top 15 program.  NCAA tournaments should be a shoe-in, IMO. 

2.  Persona/"antics" will wear thin should the program become mediocre or average.  If MU is successful, then Buzz will always be embraced.  I have no reason to believe he's not what he seems/portrays to the public.

3.  Burnout is definitely a possibility, although after reading that onmilwaukee.com article a few weeks back, I have a feeling he has a better understanding of how to handle his job. 

[boyonthedock]

If the program's worst year is a 2 seed in the NIT, he can stay forever.

[mu03eng]

2.  To quote a Ben Franklin character in a movie "a rebellion is always legal in the first person, such as "our rebellion." It is only in the third person - "their rebellion" - that it becomes illegal."  Buzz's antics will always be accepted as long as he is "ours"

[Abode4life]

2.  Persona/"antics" will wear thin should the program become mediocre or average.  If MU is successful, then Buzz will always be embraced.  I have no reason to believe he's not what he seems/portrays to the public.

To quote Al:  "When I was losing, they called me nuts. When I was winning they called me eccentric."  The same goes for Buzz.

[Canadian Dimes]

1.  I think keeping the program in the top 15 will be a determining factor for the program.  The conference accolades will probably coincide with being a top 15 program.  NCAA tournaments should be a shoe-in, IMO. 


OH MY!!

Then Buzz is doomed to failure.  Lokk at the consecutive NCAA streaks Mu is right near the top with 6/7... and we were a top 15 program in 2-3 of those 7 years. 
Heck, depending on how things fall into place we could miss the NCAA's next year.

I think Buzz is great in every single aspect butto hold him to top 15 perennially and a n NCAA every year is ludicrous.  Calhoun, Dixon, Boeheim, etc. cant and have not met those prerequisites

[RJax55]

The next few weeks will be big for Buzz's legacy (at least in the short term) here.

MU has legitimate shot to play for the Big East title this Saturday and will probably receive the highest NCAA seed since FF year. This could be a really special month, but could also be a tremendous disappointment. A run to the second weekend of the tournament again would be huge for the program, but a flame out would be equally disappointing.

Buzz has put this team in an excellent position, but the programs (coaches) that make the leap forward are the ones that capitalize in March.

[connie]

I don't think any serious "mutterings" about Crean started until late in his 9 year run, and when he left you would have thought that the sky was falling and we were doomed to walk through the desert for 40 years.  I don't know that there is a ten year window when a coach has a great deal of success in years 3 and 4 without a complete dropoff.  Based upon our recent past I would think there is a bit more time for a once successful coach to right the ship after a few less than stellar years.

[Lennys Tap]

The next few weeks will be big for Buzz's legacy (at least in the short term) here.

Some feel Buzz was handed the keys to a Ferrari in year one. I think that's a major overstatement, but for the sake of argument let's throw out his first season as regards his "short term legacy". After his initial senior class, Buzz was left in year 2 with Lazar, Cubillan and Acker and virtually nothing in the following two years (he was able to hold onto Otule and Fulce from that first year's recruiting class). What does he have to show for that three year rebuilding process? So far 3 NCAAs (think we're "in" this year), a Sweet 16, 34 Big East regular season wins, 2 NBA first rounders, a Big East POY, a top ten regular season finish, and a school best 14-4 Big East regular season, etc, etc.

There is no coach in MU history whose first three years can match that. His "short term legacy" is secure no matter what happens in the next two weeks.

[RJax55]

Some feel Buzz was handed the keys to a Ferrari in year one. I think that's a major overstatement, but for the sake of argument let's throw out his first season as regards his "short term legacy". After his initial senior class, Buzz was left in year 2 with Lazar, Cubillan and Acker and virtually nothing in the following two years (he was able to hold onto Otule and Fulce from that first year's recruiting class). What does he have to show for that three year rebuilding process? So far 3 NCAAs (think we're "in" this year), a Sweet 16, 34 Big East regular season wins, 2 NBA first rounders, a Big East POY, a top ten regular season finish, and a school best 14-4 Big East regular season, etc, etc.

There is no coach in MU history whose first three years can match that. His "short term legacy" is secure no matter what happens in the next two weeks.

I agree with you Lenny... Perhaps, it was poorly phased on my part. What I meant to say is that Buzz has a great chance to significantly add to his short-term legacy in the next few weeks. The opportunity is there.

 

[Goose]

Buzz has delivered the goods, no doubt about it. A nice March/April run only enhances his legacy. If Buzz is here in five years we will look back at this year as a building year that took program to highest level in 30+ years.

[Lennys Tap]

I agree with you Lenny... Perhaps, it was poorly phased on my part. What I meant to say is that Buzz has a great chance to significantly add to his short-term legacy in the next few weeks. The opportunity is there.

 

Sorry if I misunderstood, RJax - I'm in absolute agreement that Buzz has the chance to enhance his short term legacy this month.

[NersEllenson]

Surprised one would thinkBuzz's "persona" might wear thin with MU fans??  Really?  He's far less arrogant and pompous than Al, and Al was revered here.  Buzz isn't the self promoting, hard to work with/for coach that Crean was.  Buzz has embraced the history of MU Hoops, the culture, the mission of the university, etc...and started a great thing with Buzz's bunch.

Many sports fans across the board have way too unrealistic expectations of their teams, and this leads to idiotic talk of Jamie Dixon or Jay Wright possibly needing to be replaced/move on.  Where was Nova before Wright?  Pitt was good with Howland, but Dixon has them in Top 3 winning percentage in Big East in his tenure.  You can't expect to win the league every year, make the Sweet 16, Elite 8, or Final Four...unless perhaps you are at a blueblood school like UK, UNC, Duke, or Kansas...which Nova, Pitt, Marquette are not...

[Chicos' Buzz Scandal Countdown]

I'm always interested in the Buzz/Crean comparisons. In my mind, Crean was awesome for the program, and did us the biggest favor when he left.... I don't think he could do much better.

Buzz came in in a totally different situation, and I think the expectations for where MU should be 10 years down the road is different than TC's.

BTW - anyone else feel that Indiana, Indiana's season this year mimicked MU's under Crean a bit? A few awesome wins early on, followed by some uncharacteristic losses below the talent of the team. I expect another early out for him.

[The Equalizer]

Some feel Buzz was handed the keys to a Ferrari in year one. I think that's a major overstatement, but for the sake of argument let's throw out his first season as regards his "short term legacy". After his initial senior class, Buzz was left in year 2 with Lazar, Cubillan and Acker and virtually nothing in the following two years (he was able to hold onto Otule and Fulce from that first year's recruiting class). What does he have to show for that three year rebuilding process? So far 3 NCAAs (think we're "in" this year), a Sweet 16, 34 Big East regular season wins, 2 NBA first rounders, a Big East POY, a top ten regular season finish, and a school best 14-4 Big East regular season, etc, etc.

There is no coach in MU history whose first three years can match that. His "short term legacy" is secure no matter what happens in the next two weeks.

I belive Hank Raymonds matches Buzz's first few years--or comes pretty darn close.

And if you look at the rosters, I think its a direct result of the talent inherited.  Buzz inherited 3 players that ultimately made the NBA--Matthews, Hayward and McNeal.  You have to go back to Hank Raymonds to find another MU coach that inherited 3 future NBA players--Crean inherited none, Deane 2 (Crawford & McCaskill).  O'Neill 1 (Tony Smith).  Dukiet 1 (Tony Smith). Majerus 1 (Copa--2 if you count Doc Rivers).  Hank 3 (Lee, Toone, Whitehead).  McGuire  none.

Now imagine how good Buzz's first three years would have been had he been able to retain Mbakwe and Taylor. Mbakwe was a projected lottery pick this year before his injury (and still projected #16 pick in the 2013 draft).  Taylor is currently projected a 2nd rounder. 

That would have been 5 future potential NBA players inherited.

[Lennys Tap]

I belive Hank Raymonds matches Buzz's first few years--or comes pretty darn close.

And if you look at the rosters, I think its a direct result of the talent inherited.  Buzz inherited 3 players that ultimately made the NBA--Matthews, Hayward and McNeal.  You have to go back to Hank Raymonds to find another MU coach that inherited 3 future NBA players--Crean inherited none, Deane 2 (Crawford & McCaskill).  O'Neill 1 (Tony Smith).  Dukiet 1 (Tony Smith). Majerus 1 (Copa--2 if you count Doc Rivers).  Hank 3 (Lee, Toone, Whitehead).  McGuire  none.

Now imagine how good Buzz's first three years would have been had he been able to retain Mbakwe and Taylor. Mbakwe was a projected lottery pick this year before his injury (and still projected #16 pick in the 2013 draft).  Taylor is currently projected a 2nd rounder. 

That would have been 5 future potential NBA players inherited.

If you read my post you would have known I DID NOT include year one for Buzz because people like you give him little or no credit for it anyway. Taylor (never on campus) and Mbakwe (gone for sure until Crean left and even then gone almost for sure) have been talked to death and I don't know anyone except you and the departed one who really think Buzz "inherited" them any more than Crean inherited Tu Holloway at IU.

[bilsu]

I think MU fans dream of going to final four, but realy do not expect it. They do expect to make the NCAA tournament. You can get away with not making one year, but two years in a row would be a probelm. A reasonable goal to me would be say our program is more successful than Wisconsin. Last year both schools made the sweet 16, but UW had the better overall season and beat MU. This year right now we have a win over UW and a better overall record. MU fans should expect to be the best program on average in the state. More total victories and more NCAA victories over a five year period.

[Hoopaloop]

I think MU fans dream of going to final four, but realy do not expect it. They do expect to make the NCAA tournament. You can get away with not making one year, but two years in a row would be a probelm. A reasonable goal to me would be say our program is more successful than Wisconsin. Last year both schools made the sweet 16, but UW had the better overall season and beat MU. This year right now we have a win over UW and a better overall record. MU fans should expect to be the best program on average in the state. More total victories and more NCAA victories over a five year period.

This sounds logical.  Right now we're behind Wisconsin in those parameters, but no reason we cannot pass them up over time.

[Hoopaloop]

If you read my post you would have known I DID NOT include year one for Buzz because people like you give him little or no credit for it anyway. Taylor (never on campus) and Mbakwe (gone for sure until Crean left and even then gone almost for sure) have been talked to death and I don't know anyone except you and the departed one who really think Buzz "inherited" them any more than Crean inherited Tu Holloway at IU.

A new coach coming into a program inherits the players, right?  What other way would you describe it?


Doesn't this headline say the same thing?   http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/writers/luke_winn/10/02/marquette/

[Marqevans]

I belive Hank Raymonds matches Buzz's first few years--or comes pretty darn close.

And if you look at the rosters, I think its a direct result of the talent inherited.  Buzz inherited 3 players that ultimately made the NBA--Matthews, Hayward and McNeal.  You have to go back to Hank Raymonds to find another MU coach that inherited 3 future NBA players--Crean inherited none, Deane 2 (Crawford & McCaskill).  O'Neill 1 (Tony Smith).  Dukiet 1 (Tony Smith). Majerus 1 (Copa--2 if you count Doc Rivers).  Hank 3 (Lee, Toone, Whitehead).  McGuire  none.

Now imagine how good Buzz's first three years would have been had he been able to retain Mbakwe and Taylor. Mbakwe was a projected lottery pick this year before his injury (and still projected #16 pick in the 2013 draft).  Taylor is currently projected a 2nd rounder. 

That would have been 5 future potential NBA players inherited.

Has McNeal played in an NBA game?

[Lennys Tap]

A new coach coming into a program inherits the players, right?  What other way would you describe it?


Doesn't this headline say the same thing?   http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/writers/luke_winn/10/02/marquette/

So your point is the cupboard really wasn't bare for TC when he went to IU? That he inherited Holloway and others but lost them? And therefore he's to blame for IU's freefall? I don't agree, but I do see your (and Equalizer's) point on that one. Maybe I'm letting my love for Crean blind me to that reality.

[Hoopaloop]

Has McNeal played in an NBA game?

He was on the New Orleans Hornets roster for three games.  Did not play, but received a paycheck.  He has no official NBA statistics recorded but he is considered among the fraternity of NBA players once he signed the contract and was placed on the roster.

[Hoopaloop]

So your point is the cupboard really wasn't bare for TC when he went to IU? That he inherited Holloway and others but lost them? And therefore he's to blame for IU's freefall? I don't agree, but I do see your (and Equalizer's) point on that one.aybe I'm letting my love for Crean blind me to that reality.

If you view life in black and white, then sure you could go there.  My opinion is that life is many shades of gray and each situation is different.  I suspect that Crean walked into a worse short term situation than Buzz did.  Long term, Crean walked into a better long term gig with their history and the talent in the state.

Jay Bilas said it pretty good here in terms of the situations.  I believe whatever Jay Bilas says.   

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/kdvwTYLcRRI" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/kdvwTYLcRRI</a>

[Lennys Tap]

Has McNeal played in an NBA game?

No

[ATL MU Warrior]

He was on the New Orleans Hornets roster for three games.  Did not play, but received a paycheck.  He has no official NBA statistics recorded but he is considered among the fraternity of NBA players once he signed the contract and was placed on the roster.

By you, Chicos and 84 and nobody else.

[The Equalizer]

If you read my post you would have known I DID NOT include year one for Buzz because people like you give him little or no credit for it anyway. Taylor (never on campus) and Mbakwe (gone for sure until Crean left and even then gone almost for sure) have been talked to death and I don't know anyone except you and the departed one who really think Buzz "inherited" them any more than Crean inherited Tu Holloway at IU.

Well I *do* give Buzz a lot of credit for his first year.  He was able to keep a talented team together (for the most part), and kept them playing well--much like Hank did in 1978.  

Not sure why you say Mbakwe was as good as gone. There was one rumor printed in what on most days people think isn't even worth using to wrap fish. Mbakwe himself denied the rumor, then stayed at Marquette for another five months.  If he were as "good as gone" at the time as you say, he wouldn't have stayed at MU for a full five more months, only to annouce his departure a) without a home and b) at a time in which most programs had already filled all available scholarships.  There's a reason why players who are "as good as gone" leave their teams before the spring sigining period.

Not sure what your point is on Crean with respect to Holloway. He certainly did inherit Holloway and wasn't able to retain him.  He also inherited Eli Holman and wasn't able to retain him either. I'd bet IU would have been a lot better those first couple of years had he been able to keep them.

[The Equalizer]

By you, Chicos and 84 and nobody else.

And TallTitan34, who added him to the the MU Sccop WIKI last year:
http://bit.ly/zXXd8w

Not Drafted But Played In the NBA
Player    Debut Team    Debut Season
Jerel McNeal    New Orleans Hornets    2010-2011
Wesley Matthews    Utah Jazz    2009-2010
Tom Copa    San Antonio Spurs    1991-1992

If its good enough for the MUscoop mods to leave in the WIKI, its good enough for me.

[ZiggysFryBoy]

By you, Chicos and 84 and nobody else.

the equalizer and 84 are one in the same.  (also Joanie.  Hi Joanie)

[ATL MU Warrior]

the equalizer and 84 are one in the same.  (also Joanie.  Hi Joanie)

I know.

[Hoopaloop]

By you, Chicos and 84 and nobody else.

    I love it when our own alumni crap on other alumni (and in the process our former players) in order to try and score some silly point.  Isn't it a good thing Jerel McNeal made the NBA?  Yet you seem to want to diminish this accomplishment.  Why?


The NBA.com website has Jerel McNeal listed.  So apparently the NBA believes that Jerel McNeal was a member of the NBA, along with me, Chicos and 84.

http://www.nba.com/playerfile/jerel_mcneal/


Chicago Tribune with a nice article on Jerel's journey and finally making the NBA

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2011-06-25/sports/ct-spt-0626-nba-draft-fringe-prospect20110625_1_nba-lockout-marquette-free-agents

The New Orleans Hornets website, I believe a team from the NBA.

http://www.nba.com/hornets/news/hornets_sign_jerel_mcnel___2011_03_09.html


Can't we celebrate achievements from our players? 

Why does this get personal with some of you?  Can't we all get along?   4everwarriors