Does MU have a long wait list?

[Disco Hippie]

Right.  They are going to be inefficient and use resources unwisely.

Have a serious question since you work in the field and am curious what your take is.   If Marquette had exactly the same profile in terms of academic composition, USNWR ranking, enrollment, endowment, religious affiliation, etc. but were located in Massachusetts or New York or Pennsylvania or CT for example, would it still make sense for them to embark on the same enrollment strategy?  I realize MU is not located there so I guess what I’m asking is to what extent do you think MU’s geography and the attitudes of folks in WI, IL and MN compared to people in the Northeast factored into their decision making on the issue?

[GGGG]

Have a serious question since you work in the field and am curious what your take is.   If Marquette had exactly the same profile in terms of academic composition, USNWR ranking, enrollment, endowment, religious affiliation, etc. but were located in Massachusetts or New York or Pennsylvania or CT for example, would it still make sense for them to embark on the same enrollment strategy?  I realize MU is not located there so I guess what I’m asking is to what extent do you think MU’s geography and the attitudes of folks in WI, IL and MN compared to people in the Northeast factored into their decision making on the issue?

That's a fair question and I really don't know the answer.  And I'm not sure if Marquette does either. 

Regardless, here is a summary of what Marquette did.  Bear in mind that this was put out by their consultant, but there is a lot of good stuff in here about why they chose this path. 

https://www.ruffalonl.com/case-studies/marquette-university

"Because getting more of the right applications was the goal—not getting more applications overall. Also, the staff realized that having a smaller search pool would make it possible to spend more time and resources on students who were more likely to enroll."

[Herman Cain]

That's a fair question and I really don't know the answer.  And I'm not sure if Marquette does either. 

Regardless, here is a summary of what Marquette did.  Bear in mind that this was put out by their consultant, but there is a lot of good stuff in here about why they chose this path. 

https://www.ruffalonl.com/case-studies/marquette-university

"Because getting more of the right applications was the goal—not getting more applications overall. Also, the staff realized that having a smaller search pool would make it possible to spend more time and resources on students who were more likely to enroll."

The report is a self serving puff piece by the consultants.  My experience with the admissions staff at MU is they are super lazy and not very thoughtful.  So bingo hire a consultant that can create a way for you to do less work and get easier to close on candidates. 

MU had everything going for it when it hit 75 on US News and was really starting to build a good reputation . Now the school is heading toward the 100s and parity with Loyola of Chicago and eventually DePaul.

I have been a trustee of two very high performing high schools and I guarantee in the real world MU's approach is the wrong one. The guidance counselors who are very influential will reaffirm what I am saying. MU is literally making themselves unattractive to the people who can pay full freight. So I disagree with the analysis that MU is making a good use of resources. I think they are debasing their asset base( brand name) and in effect that needs to be accounted for in the full cost of their strategy. As such this strategy is super expensive and very hard to remedy.
 

[warriorchick]

So bingo hire a consultant that can create a way for you to do less work and get easier to close on candidates. 

What?!?!

Marquette is achieving better results with fewer resources?

This must be stopped immediately!!! 

[GGGG]

The report is a self serving puff piece by the consultants.  My experience with the admissions staff at MU is they are super lazy and not very thoughtful.  So bingo hire a consultant that can create a way for you to do less work and get easier to close on candidates. 

MU had everything going for it when it hit 75 on US News and was really starting to build a good reputation . Now the school is heading toward the 100s and parity with Loyola of Chicago and eventually DePaul.

I have been a trustee of two very high performing high schools and I guarantee in the real world MU's approach is the wrong one. The guidance counselors who are very influential will reaffirm what I am saying. MU is literally making themselves unattractive to the people who can pay full freight. So I disagree with the analysis that MU is making a good use of resources. I think they are debasing their asset base( brand name) and in effect that needs to be accounted for in the full cost of their strategy. As such this strategy is super expensive and very hard to remedy.

You have a pretty good history here of being wrong.  So....

[GGGG]

What?!?!

Marquette is achieving better results with fewer resources?

This must be stopped immediately!!! 

Right.  Let's bitch about how much Marquette's tuition is and then bitch some more about how they are trying to be more efficient. 

[jsglow]

Right.  Let's bitch about how much Marquette's tuition is and then bitch some more about how they are trying to be more efficient.

   I know, hey?

[Silkk the Shaka]

You have a pretty good history here of being wrong.  So....

Often wrong, never in doubt

[theBabyDavid]

You’re mixing up cause and effect.

You miss the point. If Marquette wishes to be seen as more exclusive it must be more selective.

If MU chooses not to be as selective then it cannot be as exclusive as the premiere colleges and should therefore be satisfied with its second tier reputation.
 
Frankly, there is nothing actually wrong with being a second tier school. In our category I would suggest that only UND and GU rank among the very best American colleges. MU is in that next group within its category and seems to be doing rather well.

The real question is can Marquette elevate its status to be on a par with its category leaders? We should not compare ourselves with a Dartmouth or a Williams; rather, our standard of excellence is GU and UND.

Framing one's conceptual lens properly is essential to addressing the real question.

[Goose]

theBabyDavid

Spot on. I have debated this very topic with my brother in law on many occasions. I think MU should maximize exactly where they are in the food chain. I struggle big time when I see folks place in the exclusive club. Honestly, we are far closer to a blue blood ball program than an exclusive university.

[GGGG]

You miss the point. If Marquette wishes to be seen as more exclusive it must be more selective.

If MU chooses not to be as selective then it cannot be as exclusive as the premiere colleges and should therefore be satisfied with its second tier reputation.
 
Frankly, there is nothing actually wrong with being a second tier school. In our category I would suggest that only UND and GU rank among the very best American colleges. MU is in that next group within its category and seems to be doing rather well.

The real question is can Marquette elevate its status to be on a par with its category leaders? We should not compare ourselves with a Dartmouth or a Williams; rather, our standard of excellence is GU and UND.

Framing one's conceptual lens properly is essential to addressing the real question.

The problem is that it is intellectually dishonest to somehow frame yourself as "exclusive" by pumping up the denominator in the fraction.  That doesn't make the education you provide any better.  It won't make your graduates any more successful.  That really doesn't mean you're actually "exclusive."

Now there are a lot of great schools that attract a ton of applications and therefore are exclusive due to limiting the numerator.  That's much different.  Those schools actually are exclusive.

theBabyDavid

Spot on. I have debated this very topic with my brother in law on many occasions. I think MU should maximize exactly where they are in the food chain. I struggle big time when I see folks place in the exclusive club. Honestly, we are far closer to a blue blood ball program than an exclusive university.

I agree Goose.  And that's exactly what I think they are doing.

[theBabyDavid]

theBabyDavid

Spot on. I have debated this very topic with my brother in law on many occasions. I think MU should maximize exactly where they are in the food chain. I struggle big time when I see folks place in the exclusive club. Honestly, we are far closer to a blue blood ball program than an exclusive university.

Goose

Fact is, two persons were instrumental in transforming Marquette from a regional to national university - Luci Baines Johnson and Al McGuire. Marquette had been a regional college serving its core constituency of WI and IL Catholics. Those two helped usher in large numbers of students from beyond its traditional base, especially from the northeast.

Marquette's brand is heavily dependent on the success of Men's Basketball. Witness the struggles of the early '90s both on and off the court.

[StillAWarrior]

Fact is, two persons were instrumental in transforming Marquette from a regional to national university - Luci Baines Johnson and Al McGuire. Marquette had been a regional college serving its core constituency of WI and IL Catholics. Those two helped usher in large numbers of students from beyond its traditional base, especially from the northeast.

Interesting fact, Leo Flynn (former Dean of Admissions -- I think I have the name right) recruited heavily from Guam with quite a lot of success.  I recall hearing in the late 80's that Marquette drew more students from Guam than any school not on the West Coast.  I think there were approximately 20-25 students from Guam in my freshman class.  I'm not saying it was an efficient use of resources...I honestly don't know.  But I'm sure Leo enjoyed his annual trip to Guam.  If Leo hadn't showed up at my HS one day, I'm sure I wouldn't have attended Marquette.

[Disco Hippie]

Interesting fact, Leo Flynn (former Dean of Admissions -- I think I have the name right) recruited heavily from Guam with quite a lot of success.  I recall hearing in the late 80's that Marquette drew more students from Guam than any school not on the West Coast.  I think there were approximately 20-25 students from Guam in my freshman class.  I'm not saying it was an efficient use of resources...I honestly don't know.  But I'm sure Leo enjoyed his annual trip to Guam.  If Leo hadn't showed up at my HS one day, I'm sure I wouldn't have attended Marquette.

In my class there seemed to be more students from Guam than the entire eastern seaboard of the U.S. from Maine to FL.  That's probably somewhat exaggerated but I honestly don't think by much.  Someone touched on it earlier and it's absolutely true that MU is heavily reliant on the success of it's men's basketball program to stay nationally relevant.  Since I was there in the very early 90's and they hadn't been good since like '85, they were much more regional at the time, but hey, they did have tons of students from Guam!  Nothing against Guamanians but I never thought it was a good thing that they had as many or more students from Guam and PR than combined students from the coasts or the south.

[theBabyDavid]

Interesting fact, Leo Flynn (former Dean of Admissions -- I think I have the name right) recruited heavily from Guam with quite a lot of success.  I recall hearing in the late 80's that Marquette drew more students from Guam than any school not on the West Coast.  I think there were approximately 20-25 students from Guam in my freshman class.  I'm not saying it was an efficient use of resources...I honestly don't know.  But I'm sure Leo enjoyed his annual trip to Guam.  If Leo hadn't showed up at my HS one day, I'm sure I wouldn't have attended Marquette.

Gov Felix "Guamo" Camacho was an RA at the Beer Can

[Herman Cain]

The problem is that it is intellectually dishonest to somehow frame yourself as "exclusive" by pumping up the denominator in the fraction.  That doesn't make the education you provide any better.  It won't make your graduates any more successful.  That really doesn't mean you're actually "exclusive."

Now there are a lot of great schools that attract a ton of applications and therefore are exclusive due to limiting the numerator.  That's much different.  Those schools actually are exclusive.

I agree Goose.  And that's exactly what I think they are doing.

It is not about the quality of MU Education. We all know it is very good. It is about marketing that to the greater world beyond Wisconsin Avenue.  There are truly only 9 schools in America where the Numerator is limited because they can. The Ivies and Stanford. The rest,  even Williams Amherst etc is all marketing and full of people who couldn't get into Ivy or Stanford . I put U of C, MIT and Cal Tech in a different category because they cater to legit super high academic type kids and there are really only so many of those floating around. 

MU needs to ramp up its " Marketing" not its actual educational product. Give a hint of exclusivity and the school can pretty quickly move into be a top 50 school. The benefit of being a higher rated school is in the medium to long term the dollars for endowment flow in. More endowment means more money for better academic staff which furthers the actual product.

The provincial notion that MU is a school for people whose family never sent someone to college etc is a much dated thing. In fact I am not sure it ever really was the case. There was no damn charity from the Jesuits in my day if you couldn't pay the bills. There are tons of state universities that adequately fill that educational access role. MU is an expensive private school and needs to look and act the part in order to compete. Every one will be better off especially the kids who actually matriculate.

[Disco Hippie]

I second Goose!  The Baby David's comments are exactly right.  For all my complaining about the acceptance rate and the current enrollment strategy on here and to various administrators, I've never advocated for MU to take steps to try and become the next GTOWN, BC or ND.   They are not an elite school never have been and never will be.  I'm perfectly fine with that and up until a year or two ago was fine with their USNWR ranking which for 10 year was either in the high 70's to mid 80's.   If they stayed there forever, I'd be perfectly content.  The problem is they won't if they continue down this current path.  They're on a downward trend and the only reason they are is because of the ridiculously high acceptance rate.  MU has stepped up it's research considerably, increased diversity as well as the academic profile of the avg student and improved in almost every other metric accept that one.

Herman is absolutely right that this is a major turn off to many many prospective students and that's not just a coastal elitist POV.   MU's own students are taking it up as a cause celebre.  Remember that Tirb article someone posted on here back in November?   

I don't know about everyone else on here but to me it's vitally important MU remain in the top 100.  I do know they're targeting more foreign students, many from countries where the government pays full freight but many governments only pay tuition for their citizens who are attending top 100 National Universities and USNWR is the standard they use so it's important.  If a school falls out of the top 100, tuition is then on the family.  I don't know how many countries actually do this and whether the ones that do are countries that MU is recruiting in but interesting nonetheless.

[4everwarriors]

Middle of the road, hey?

[theBabyDavid]

Marquette is an exceptional venue for those seeking the cumulative benefits of the Jesuit educational experience. For theBabyDavid, it is best articulated in the concept of the anticipatory joy of finding God in every aspect of this mundane existence.

One can learn thermodynamics and chemical kinetics anywhere; but at a Jesuit college one has the unique insight of God's hand in how this physical world works.

Not every scholar requires this creative spark. But for those who cherish their faith such revelation is energizing.

   

[PorkysButthole]

To say that acceptance rates and selectivity shouldn't matter and only outputs should, as many on here do,  reeks of moral superiority, self righteousness, and arrogance!  Come on Scoopers!  Of course that's how it SHOULD be, but that is not how it is and probably never will be.  If Marquette really wants to become a "highly ranked destination university" as they claim to in the strategic plan, they're never going to get there by letting in virtually everyyone, even if everyone Is qualified and deserves a spot.  They have absolutely nothing to gain by such an approach and everything to lose.  The only purpose it will serve is to reinforce the moral superiority and arrogance of the current administration and make them feel better about themselves while the reputation and ranking continues to erode.   

It seems clear to Porky that the curent administration is more interested in being a social service organization than a university and Porky has serious concerns about that.  Porky understands that MU is a mission driven institution and is supportive of the social justice agenda, but not over and above all else including MU's reputation!

[Juan Anderson's Mixtape]

edit: links not working

will try again

[Juan Anderson's Mixtape]

https://www.collegeraptor.com/getting-in/articles/questions-answers/low-acceptance-rate-mean-school-better/

"A low acceptance rate does not automatically mean a school is better. Despite the hype surrounding acceptance rate, the truth is, it does not really tell you much about the quality of education you will receive at a particular school. It’s a measure of its exclusivity, not necessarily its quality or worth."

https://www.forbes.com/sites/willarddix/2016/05/24/rethinking-the-meaning-of-colleges-low-acceptance-rates/#24afae431dd0

"Although colleges love to crow about these numbers, they conceal a fact that few outsiders realize: A low acceptance rate, along with high scores, grades and other characteristics, indicates inputs, not outputs."

https://www.forbes.com/sites/stevecohen/2013/03/25/college-rankings-arent-meaningless-theyre-just-misleading/#e61037e57d09

"And all too often we’ve seen the same pattern: parents come in with a set of “ranked” colleges and want to spend 90% of their effort figuring out how to get Sam admitted.

That’s backwards."

https://www.forbes.com/sites/willarddix/2016/05/13/dont-use-college-selectivity-as-a-measure-of-quality/

"If you look at our higher education system from an educational perspective, this preoccupation with enrolling smart students makes little sense, because the emphasis seems to be more on acquiring smart students than on educating them well...."

[Juan Anderson's Mixtape]

Ok, I got my links to work this time.  A lot of good information and perspectives in these articles.  I hope people take the time to read them.

As for Porky's comments: What a bunch of contrived BS!  You're post is dripping with irony because the reason people care about acceptance rate is so that they can feel superior about the university they or their child are attending.  It's a meaningless metric.

The real history of acceptance rates starts like this:

"In the distant past of college admission, even institutions like Harvard and Yale accepted most of their applicants."

"In a word, selective college admission really began as a way to keep "undesirables" out of WASPy campuses and, by extension, out of the social circles graduates expected to enter."

source: https://www.forbes.com/sites/willarddix/2016/05/13/dont-use-college-selectivity-as-a-measure-of-quality/#61833b031821

[PorkysButthole]

As for Porky's comments: What a bunch of contrived BS!  You're post is dripping with irony because the reason people care about acceptance rate is so that they can feel superior about the university they or their child are attending.  It's a meaningless metric.

Porky doesn't know if people want to feel superior necessarily, but they should certainly feel comfortable about where they're attending and given the substantial $$$ it costs to attend a private school like Marquette, many many people aren't comfortable shelling out that kind of money for a school with an 89% acceptance rate, no matter how strong the incoming metrics and favorable the outputs.  To those who feel that way of thinking is ass backwards, that acceptance rates have no bearing on quality, blah blah blah well congratulations!  They're 100% correct! The problem, as other posters have pointed out, is that way of thinking is alive and well and isn't going to change anytime soon unless every national university colludes together....to use the parlance of our times......and starts taking the pragmatic approach that Marquette has taken.  We all know that's not going to happen.  The sad thing is MU has succeeded in both growing the undergraduate population, and not just maintaining but INCREASING the academic quality of the incoming classes the last 2 years, but mark Porky's words......they will absolutely be penalized for it.   That's not how it should be but it is how things are.  That the powers that be don't seem to give a sh*&%t boggles Porky's mind.

[Trust The Process]

Appreciate everyone's inputs and responses on this topic.

Having said this, I disagree with the direction that MU has decided to take. Agree with many that acceptance rate and rankings should not matter, but the truth remains that this is a deciding factor for many prospective students, especially those looking from long distances. We know the quality of MU's eduction, but the rest of the country simply does not. When you take a step outside of the Midwestern bubble it becomes apparent.

I truly am proud of my school. I just hope that one day others around the nation can recognize us for what we are, outside of the Wade's and Butler's so to speak.